V-ta ato (de) vs V-te kara
gla...@onsager.chem.mcgill.ca
gla...@onsager.chem.mcgill.ca
Sorry about the previous blank post. Let me try again.
Recently, I've gotten back into my Japanese studies when I noticed that there
seemed to be two ways to say "After doing..."
ex. benkyou shita ato de....
benkyou shite kara.....
I was wondering if there was a semantic difference between the two usages or
if perhaps one was more commonly used than the other? I would appreciate any
input.
Thank-you
cheryan
Charles Eicher
() wrote:
> Recently, I've gotten back into my Japanese studies when I noticed that there
> seemed to be two ways to say "After doing..."
>
> ex. benkyou shita ato de....
> benkyou shite kara.....
as I understand it:
benkyoo shita ato de
-from some indeterminate time after I finished studying
benkyoo shite kara
-starting from the point in time when I finished studying
I looked this up in "A dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar" (Makino &
Tsutsui) and they had these additional incomprehensible things to say:
Vta ato de is crucially different from Vte kara in 2 respects:
Vte kara is very awkward if the main clause expresses something beyond the
control of the speaker or subject of the sentence. Vta ato de is free from
such restriction. [huh?]
Secondly, Vte kara indicates 'the space of time following after' but Vta
ato de indicates 'any space of time after'
------------------
Charles Eicher
cei...@netins.net
------------------
Ben Bullock
> gla...@onsager.chem.mcgill.ca wrote:
> > Recently, I've gotten back into my Japanese studies when I noticed that there
> > seemed to be two ways to say "After doing..."
> >
> > ex. benkyou shita ato de....
> > benkyou shite kara.....
>
> as I understand it:
>
> benkyoo shita ato de
> -from some indeterminate time after I finished studying
>
> benkyoo shite kara
> -starting from the point in time when I finished studying
I read the following explanation in one book, but I can't seem to find
the book this morning. Anyway I can't be sure this is correct [since
I am not a native speaker], but it was the explanation that seems to
fit to what I have seen being used the best:
SITE-KARA implies a stronger "after" than "SHITA ATO DE". For
instance if you write some instructions for some equipment or
something, and you wanted to say "after doing (1), do (2)" you
wouldn't write "(1) SITA ATO DE (2) SURU" but "(1) SITE KARA (2) SURU"
in other words, you must do (1) in advance and then (2) in order. If
you write "(1) SITA ATO DE (2) SURU" it may sound like maybe you can
do it in the opposite order or something - it sounds more vague - the
TE-KARA form makes it clearer that you are doing (1) then (2).
> I looked this up in "A dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar" (Makino &
> Tsutsui) and they had these additional incomprehensible things to say:
>
> Vta ato de is crucially different from Vte kara in 2 respects:
> Vte kara is very awkward if the main clause expresses something
> beyond the control of the speaker or subject of the sentence. Vta
> ato de is free from such restriction.
So what they are trying to say is that, for example:
TABETE KARA AME GA FURIDASITA
"after I ate it started raining" is weird because "I" could not
control the rain but
TABETA ATO DE AME GA FURIDASITA
is OK? Can someone more knowledgeable than me confirm this?
> Secondly, Vte kara indicates 'the space of time following after' but Vta
> ato de indicates 'any space of time after'
To illustrate this point, for instance, BENKYOU SITA ATO DE SIKEN WO
UKETA means: I had the exam after I studied (maybe two days after or
something) whereas BENKYOU SITE KARA SIKEN WO UKETA means: I had the
exam immediately after I studied for it (there was no gap between the
two events)
Further to the above points, my book "setuzoku no hyougen" (Japanese
for foreigners series) has this to say (on page 91):
`SONO TOKI KARA' TO `--SITA ATO DE' NO IMI NO TOKI NI HA `DOUSI TE
KARA' NO KATATI GA TUKAERU. TADASI, SHUGO GA TIGAU TOKI HA KANARAZU
`DOUSI TE KARA' TO NARU.
roughly "you should use TE-KARA if the subject of the two clauses is
different".
I don't exactly know which of all the above is correct, but I hope
that someone more knowledgeable than me will fill us in.
--
Ben Bullock @ KEK (National Laboratory for High Energy Physics) / address:
1-1 Oho, Tsukuba, Ibaraki 305, JAPAN / TEL: 0298-64-5403 / FAX: 0298-64-7831 /
in japanese: ベン ブロック ＠ 高エネルギー研究所 茨城県つくば市大穂1ー1
Toshiaki Endo
writes:
> as I understand it:
>
> benkyoo shita ato de
> -from some indeterminate time after I finished studying
>
> benkyoo shite kara
> -starting from the point in time when I finished studying
This example 'after benkyoo' is actually a common conversation between a mother and her kid in
the afternoon. (^ ^:) So when it goes 'benkyoo shite kara asobi na sai' or 'benkyoo shita ato de
asobi na sai', both mean that 'you can enjoy yourself only after you finish your study' or 'you
must study before you do some other things'. The mother does not bother whether the kid would
play something soon or any later after the study, in using either of 'kara' or 'ato'.
> I looked this up in "A dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar" (Makino &
> Tsutsui) and they had these additional incomprehensible things to say:
>
> Vta ato de is crucially different from Vte kara in 2 respects:
> Vte kara is very awkward if the main clause expresses something beyond the
> control of the speaker or subject of the sentence. Vta ato de is free from
> such restriction. [huh?]
This is comprehensible to me. 'Benkyoo shite kara ame ga futta' is somehow/much awkward.
'Benkyoo shita ato de ame ga futta' is a normal expression which means 'it rained after I
finished my study'. On the other hand, when you want to say, 'it was after I came back home that
it rained', you can say 'ie ni tuite kara ame ga futta', which connotes 'I was safe from the
rain'. This case might correspond with the case 'under cotrole of the subject of the sentence'.
Of course you can also say 'ie ni tuita ato de ame ga futta'. But the connotation is, according
to my feeling, stronger than that of the case you use 'ato de'. I suppose 'kara' generally
includes more connotation than 'ato de'.
> Secondly, Vte kara indicates 'the space of time following after' but Vta
> ato de indicates 'any space of time after'
This is imcomprehensible for me either.
Were these any help? BTW, I am not a language specialist but only a native Jpanese speaker. So
these are not any academic opinions, although I am always careful and sensitive about words and
expressions.
-- Toshiaki ENDO (tonton@ffpri.a
Gerald B Mathias
: Charles Eicher (cei...@netins.net) wrote:
: : I looked this up in "A dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar" (Makino &
: : Tsutsui) and they had these additional incomprehensible things to say:
: : Vta ato de is crucially different from Vte kara in 2 respects:
: : Vte kara is very awkward if the main clause expresses something beyond the
: : control of the speaker or subject of the sentence. Vta ato de is free from
: : such restriction. [huh?]
: Translation: Don't use 'Vte kara' if the V-er is not the subject of the
: sentence as a whole. (e.g. you better not say 'ame-ga yande kara dekaketa'
: where rain is the V-er and you are the departer)
Well, an over-translation, actually (as suggested by Ben Bullock's quote
that says "always use -tekara if the subject is different"[?!]).
Another way it has been explained (Kuno 1973) is that with S1 te kara S2,
"The subject of S2 plans in such a way that S2 takes place immediately
(either physically or psychologically) after S1." But he states this
rule almost immediately after his own example: "Titi ga sinde kara,
uti mo sabishiku narimashita," which doesn't really seem to involve
that much planning, or even really be in the control of the speaker...
Bart Mathias
---------------------------
"Better to speak up and reaveal yourself a fool,
than to remain silent and pull the wool over everyone's eyes."
--Buck A. Yarrow
: Bart Mathias
KAGESAWA Masataka
In article <3nfanq$i...@keknews.kek.jp>
b...@theory1.kek.jp (Ben Bullock) writes:
> SITE-KARA implies a stronger "after" than "SHITA ATO DE". For
> instance if you write some instructions for some equipment or
> something, and you wanted to say "after doing (1), do (2)" you
> wouldn't write "(1) SITA ATO DE (2) SURU" but "(1) SITE KARA (2) SURU"
> in other words, you must do (1) in advance and then (2) in order. If
> you write "(1) SITA ATO DE (2) SURU" it may sound like maybe you can
> do it in the opposite order or something - it sounds more vague - the
> TE-KARA form makes it clearer that you are doing (1) then (2).
I'm afraid that they are quite the opposite, but I agree with it.
The degree of perfect for (1) in "(1) SHITA ATO DE" is higher than
in "(1) SHITE KARA". The following table will help you to understand:
|<-- (1) -->| |<-- (2) -->|
------+-----------+--+-----------+-------->
x y a b time
1. "(1) SHITE KARA (2)" does not garantee y < a but
garantees x < a and { y>=a or (y < a and a-y is short)}.
2. "(1) SHITA ATO DE (2)" garantees that y < a.
REMARK: If the event (1) is action, then y-x is almost 0.
OTOH, I guess that the sentences:
> > Vte kara is very awkward if the main clause expresses something
> > beyond the control of the speaker or subject of the sentence. Vta
> > ato de is free from such restriction.
mean mainly for future. The reason is as follows:
Since we already know the time of x,y and a on the figure for what
kinds of past events (1) and (2), you can determine whether the
condition 1. is satisfied or not. If it is satisfied, then you can say
"(1) SHITE KARA (2)", otherwise you just say "(1) SHITA ATO DE (2)".
But for future we can't determine 'a' in the figure if the event (2)
is out of control. So why you can say "(1) SHITE KARA (2)" without
garanteeing the condition 1. ?
For example, assume that you hear that it will begin raining after 6 PM
tomorrow and that you know that he will go out about 6 PM tomorrow.
Then you can say
"Ashita kare ga dekakete kara ame ga furu yo"
if (and only if) you have enough reason that you really think that
it'll begin rainning slightly or just after he'll go out tomorrow.
If you don't know what time it will begin rainning, you should say
"Ashita Kare ga dekaketa ato de ame ga furu yo".
--
KAGESAWA, Masataka
James D. Beard
> Recently, I've gotten back into my Japanese studies when I noticed that there
> seemed to be two ways to say "After doing..."
>
> ex. benkyou shita ato de....
> benkyou shite kara.....
>
> I was wondering if there was a semantic difference between the two usages or
> if perhaps one was more commonly used than the other? I would appreciate any
> input.
>
The ta of shita implies completion or change of state ("past tense" in many instances):
benkyou shita ato de... after having studied,....
The te of shite implies either continuation (keep doing it) or sequence (continue on
by doing the next thing).
benkyou shite kara after studying,....
There is also a difference in ato and kara, the former implying after in the sense of
at some point later in time, while kara is after in the sense of from that point in time
onward.
--
James D. Beard
UNIX is not user-unfriendly. It merely
expects users to be computer-friendly.
Ben Bullock
> Well, an over-translation, actually (as suggested by Ben Bullock's quote
> that says "always use -tekara if the subject is different"[?!]).
> Another way it has been explained (Kuno 1973) is that with S1 te kara S2,
> "The subject of S2 plans in such a way that S2 takes place immediately
> (either physically or psychologically) after S1." But he states this
> rule almost immediately after his own example: "Titi ga sinde kara,
> uti mo sabishiku narimashita," which doesn't really seem to involve
> that much planning, or even really be in the control of the speaker...
kore wo yonde kara awateru.
> "Better to speak up and reaveal yourself a fool,
> than to remain silent and pull the wool over everyone's eyes."
> --Buck A. Yarrow
Buck A. Yarrow ?????? Anyway Mr. Yarrow's spelling needs some
improvement I believe.