Jyan Ken Po?
pry...@my-dejanews.com
A friend and I were having a discussion about the Japanese
name for the classic "rock, paper, scissors" game. We had
always heard it as "jyan ken po," which spawned a discussion
about the literal translation of the phrase. At first, we
assumed it was just three readings for each kanji representing
each object, but after looking them up, none of them matched.
We did manage to discover that "ken" can mean "fist," but
we're still in the dark about the rest. We did notice that
the kanji for "hasami" had a Pinyin reading of "jia," but
we're not sure if that has any correlation.
Does anyone out there have some insight as to the meaning and/or
origin of this phrase? Also, did the game itself originate in
Asia (something that would be better left to another forum, but
what the hell)?
Apologies if this subject has been discussed before, I didn't
see it in the FAQ or in the current threads.
Thanks,
Pam.
--
Pam Ryono
pam....@edi.gatech.edu
"No one runs my life. Including, apparently, me."
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Gerald B Mathias
: Hello,
: A friend and I were having a discussion about the Japanese
: name for the classic "rock, paper, scissors" game. We had
: always heard it as "jyan ken po," which spawned a discussion
: about the literal translation of the phrase.
There was a fascinating thread on this subject sometime in the last ten
years; I didn't have the sense to save it, unfortunately. As I recall,
somebody knew the history of the word.
Steward Cunlin's _Games of the Orient_ makes the real name "Ishi Ken," and
the common name "Janken." I learned the name as "Jankenpon," with a "n"
on the end, in Tokyo many years ago, but learned the "Jankenpo" version of
the name when I came to Hawaii. But "Jankenpo" is considered dialectal,
along with "Jankenpoi."
I learned this game as a child, which is borderline odd if it is purely
Japanese, because people had bad feelings about things Japanese in those
days. But it is possible that it had been introduced so much earlier that
the Japanese connection was forgotten.
Bart
Sean Holland
Mathias) wrote:
>Steward Cunlin's _Games of the Orient_ makes the real name "Ishi Ken," and
>the common name "Janken." I learned the name as "Jankenpon," with a "n"
>on the end, in Tokyo many years ago, but learned the "Jankenpo" version of
>the name when I came to Hawaii. But "Jankenpo" is considered dialectal,
>along with "Jankenpoi."
>
I wonder if you mean that "janken poi" is also dialectal. For me,
"jankenpon" is what books tell you the game is called, or what people will
tell you the game is called when they are kindly telling you things.
"Janken POI" is what the vast majority of people, little and big, actually
say when they play the game,whether they be in Tokyo or Tohoku or my house
in Victoria. When a occasion arises for the game (a dispute over the last
cookie, a tie in a game of karuta, or whatever), cries of "Janken!! Janken
da yo!" will ring out. I bet that even most of those people who will
answer "janken pon" when asked the name of the game will, in fact, cry
"jan ken POI!" when actually playing the game.
--
Sean
Due to spam filtering, mail from hotmail or prodigy will not reach me.
Chris S.
pry...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Does anyone out there have some insight as to the meaning and/or
> origin of this phrase? Also, did the game itself originate in
> Asia (something that would be better left to another forum, but
> what the hell)?
They use that in Japan too??
In the Philippines we have something that sounds just like that, and for the
same purpose.
We spell it "Diyak en Poi" (Jack and Poi).. I don't know what comes after,
but I heard "hale hale hoi"... :)
I wonder if the Philippines got it from Japan or vice versa...
--Chris
--
* Mabuhay, sti! * ;)
shuji matsuda
Mathias) wrote:
>pry...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>: Hello,
>
>: A friend and I were having a discussion about the Japanese
>: name for the classic "rock, paper, scissors" game. We had
>: always heard it as "jyan ken po," which spawned a discussion
>: about the literal translation of the phrase.
>Steward Cunlin's _Games of the Orient_ makes the real name "Ishi Ken,"
and
>the common name "Janken." I learned the name as "Jankenpon," with a "n"
>on the end, in Tokyo many years ago, but learned the "Jankenpo" version
of
>the name when I came to Hawaii. But "Jankenpo" is considered dialectal,
>along with "Jankenpoi."
By the way, in Osaka it is usually called "injan", but "janken" is also
posible.
--
shuji matsuda smat...@med.keio.ac.jp
Brett Robson
Elephant squishes mouse, mouse ??? flea, and flea gets in Elephants ear and
makes life annoying or something like that.
pry...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Hello,
>
> A friend and I were having a discussion about the Japanese
> name for the classic "rock, paper, scissors" game. We had
> always heard it as "jyan ken po," which spawned a discussion
> about the literal translation of the phrase. At first, we
> assumed it was just three readings for each kanji representing
> each object, but after looking them up, none of them matched.
> We did manage to discover that "ken" can mean "fist," but
> we're still in the dark about the rest. We did notice that
> the kanji for "hasami" had a Pinyin reading of "jia," but
> we're not sure if that has any correlation.
>
> Does anyone out there have some insight as to the meaning and/or
> origin of this phrase? Also, did the game itself originate in
> Asia (something that would be better left to another forum, but
> what the hell)?
>
--
-----
Brett Robson
I there is an X in the address please remove it.
(this is to stop bots collecting my address)
ICBM target co-ordinates 33 50'S,151 13'E
Ansm123
making the shape of "rock, paper, scissors". "pon" is a call to hold out our
hands.
Alternative sayings are;
"Janken hoi"
"Janken hos"
"Ken" originally means "fist". According to my dictionary, "ken" is also a
general name of the games using "fist" making the shape of somethins and
getting victory and defeat. There are other games neming "mushi-ken"
(insects-ken) and "kitsune-ken" (fox-ken), though I have never heard of such
"ken"s.
According to my dictionary, "janken" is also called "ishi-ken" (stone-ken),
though I have never heard of this name. The kanji "ishi" (鼬) also has readings
"shaku" or "jaku". I guess the reading of "jaku"-ken has changed to "janken".
(This is only my guess.)
By the way, we called this game "injan" instead of "janken" in my town in
Kyoto, Japan. Saying "Injan shissho aikotode hoi.", we hold out our hand making
the shape of "rock, paper, scissors". I cannot guess the origin of this name or
the meaning of this saying.
Annie
(This is my nickname. I am a Japanese.)
<pry...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> A friend and I were having a discussion about the Japanese
> name for the classic "rock, paper, scissors" game. We had
> always heard it as "jyan ken po," which spawned a discussion
> about the literal translation of the phrase.
(Snip)
> Does anyone out there have some insight as to the meaning and/or
> origin of this phrase? Also, did the game itself originate in
> Asia (something that would be better left to another forum, but
> what the hell)?
>
> Pam.
--
Annie
<Ans...@aol.com>
Annie
<ans...@aol.com>
Satoru Miyazaki
>By the way, in Osaka it is usually called "injan", but "janken" is also
>posible.
What the f*** is "injan"? I have never heard of it.
-------------------------
Satoru Miyazaki
National Food Safety and Toxicology Center
Michigan State University
e-mail: miya...@pilot.msu.edu
muchan
descendant of martial arts. There was a game /yakyuu-ken/, that just
two person on the stage and fight the 'janken', and looser have to put off
one of his/her clothes. The game go on until one of two become (almost) naked.
Kind of this game was (if I remember corctly) from Tosa (Koochi-ken),
similar kind of game fight for /ozashiki/ (how to say in English?) and the
participant don't make finger only with a hand, but have to make a figure
with entire body. So there is not "chop" or "kick" actually, the scene is
quite similar to two kenpoo-ka (martial arts fighters) are fighting.
/Jan/ of /janken/, is in my guess from /ja/ as sneak, but I'm not sure at all.
/pon/, /poi/, /poo/ variations of /janken, pon/, is in my guess the same as
"onomatopea" for "poi"-to nageru, "poi"-sute, "poi"-nage. in short, describing
the motion of throwing something.
BTW, why "Jyan"? (I don't see the reasong of 'jy'. nitpicking?)
muchan
Satoru Miyazaki
>Steward Cunlin's _Games of the Orient_ makes the real name "Ishi Ken," and
>the common name "Janken." I learned the name as "Jankenpon," with a "n"
>on the end, in Tokyo many years ago, but learned the "Jankenpo" version of
>the name when I came to Hawaii. But "Jankenpo" is considered dialectal,
>along with "Jankenpoi."
>Bart
Bart is correct. "Jankenpon" is the standard and the others are dialectal
or whatever.
Yasuaki NAKANO
pry...@my-dejanews.com write
> A friend and I were having a discussion about the Japanese
> name for the classic "rock, paper, scissors" game. We had
> always heard it as "jyan ken po," which spawned a discussion
> about the literal translation of the phrase.
The name of the game is jan-ken in Japanese. Jan-ken-pon (not
jan-ken-po) is a shout or call when we do the game.
A dictionary (新明解) says it (jan-ken) came from a Chinese word
両拳.
For those who can't display kanji, it looks like
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ;, ; ,;
; ,,,;,,;,,,;,,,
;''''';''''''; ,,,,,,;,,;,,,,,,
; , ; , ; ,' ,,;,
; ; ; ; ; ,,;'''';' '';,,
; ;,,;,,,; ; '''';'''''
; ; ''''''';''''''''
; ,,; ,,;
> Does anyone out there have some insight as to the meaning and/or
> origin of this phrase? Also, did the game itself originate in
> Asia (something that would be better left to another forum, but
> what the hell)?
I read a book published in late 1920's which said that in U.S.A.
they do not know jan-ken. It explained a very complicated method
to decide a winner (or loser,) but I remember nothing.
Yasuaki Nakano
Don Kirkman
<78q55s$p9u$1...@msunews.cl.msu.edu>:
>Gerald B Mathias wrote in message <78nubm$o...@news.Hawaii.Edu>...
>>Steward Cunlin's _Games of the Orient_ makes the real name "Ishi Ken," and
>>the common name "Janken." I learned the name as "Jankenpon," with a "n"
>>on the end, in Tokyo many years ago, but learned the "Jankenpo" version of
>>the name when I came to Hawaii. But "Jankenpo" is considered dialectal,
>>along with "Jankenpoi."
>Bart is correct. "Jankenpon" is the standard and the others are dialectal
>or whatever.
Bart also seems to be correct in connecting 'jankenpo' to Hawaii. Some
of my first exposure to Japanese was from Hawaiian-sourced people whose
forebears originally came from around Fukuoka, and they also said
'jankenpo'--as well as 'ko[u?]bu' for kombu and 'erai' for tsukareta.
Anybody down that way know if they still say 'jankenpo'?
--
Don
muchan
Isn't /kobu/ more correct than /konbu/? I think my gramma also said so.
/erai/ for /tsukareta/, /taihen-da/ or /shindoi/ is probably Kansaism.
(another flame from Oosaka-jin?) /erai/ /eraku/ for /hdoi/, /hidoku/ is IMO
all over Japan. (another flame?)
I'm not sure what I say these days.
muchan
Patrick Mang
I have Malaysians friends and only once we played rock, paper, bird. Bird
is made by placing the tips of your thumb, index and middle fingers
together. I got confused and put out a normal american scissors. I won
the game too, but not until one of my friends successfully convinced the
other guys that scissors was the strange american equivalent to bird.
-patrick
On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Brett Robson wrote:
> Indonesia and probably Malaysia have a variation, Elephant, flea and mouse.
> Elephant squishes mouse, mouse ??? flea, and flea gets in Elephants ear and
> makes life annoying or something like that.
>
> pry...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > A friend and I were having a discussion about the Japanese
> > name for the classic "rock, paper, scissors" game. We had
> > always heard it as "jyan ken po," which spawned a discussion
> > about the literal translation of the phrase. At first, we
> > assumed it was just three readings for each kanji representing
> > each object, but after looking them up, none of them matched.
> > We did manage to discover that "ken" can mean "fist," but
> > we're still in the dark about the rest. We did notice that
> > the kanji for "hasami" had a Pinyin reading of "jia," but
> > we're not sure if that has any correlation.
> >
> > Does anyone out there have some insight as to the meaning and/or
> > origin of this phrase? Also, did the game itself originate in
> > Asia (something that would be better left to another forum, but
> > what the hell)?
> >
>
>
>
Patrick Mang
> Kyoto, Japan. Saying "Injan shissho aikotode hoi.", we hold out our hand making
> the shape of "rock, paper, scissors". I cannot guess the origin of this name or
> the meaning of this saying.
>
> Annie
> (This is my nickname. I am a Japanese.)
Can somebody tell me what exactly the second line after jyan-ken-poi is?
Tokyo version, let's say.
Something isshoo I think but I can't make it out clearly.
-patrick
Wei-Hwa Huang
>> origin of this phrase? Also, did the game itself originate in
>> Asia (something that would be better left to another forum, but
>> what the hell)?
In Chinese the order is "Scissors", "Rock", "Cloth" -- "jian3(dao1)"
"shi2(tou2)" "bu4" .. This sounds reasonably similar to "jankenpo"
I'm tempted to say they're related. However, a kanji search
disagrees --
the ON-reading for "jian3" is "sen", not "jan";
"ken" is most likely from the kanji meaning "fist" and not "rock";
and the ON-reading for "bu4" is just "fu" (although "ho" is a kun-reading).
Perhaps they're still related, but were borrowed later.
--
Wei-Hwa Huang, whu...@ugcs.caltech.edu, http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~whuang/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The Seven Deadly Virtues are only Sins when misused."
Sean Holland
Patrick Mang <m...@leland.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>Can somebody tell me what exactly the second line after jyan-ken-poi is?
>Tokyo version, let's say.
>Something isshoo I think but I can't make it out clearly.
>
I guess you mean "Aiko desho!" (aiko = tie) This is what you say when
it's a tie, of course.
pry...@my-dejanews.com
wrote:
>
> BTW, why "Jyan"? (I don't see the reasong of 'jy'. nitpicking?)
I thought about this after I posted, especially with all the replies
referring to "Jan" rather than "Jyan." In hiragana, is it normally
written with a "JI" and then a small "YA," or is it written with a
"JI" and a small "A"? Is the latter even "allowed"?
If it's written as JI-ya, wouldn't then the romanization be JYA as
opposed to JI-a resulting in JA?
I don't claim to be an expert in this area, and it seems I'm a part
of the minority here. I guess I'm still clinging to the way I was
taught in Japanese School.
Pam "still putting a U on the end of DESU" Ryono
--
Pam Ryono
pam....@edi.gatech.edu
"No one runs my life. Including, apparently, me."
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
pry...@my-dejanews.com
> Patrick Mang <m...@leland.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>
> >Can somebody tell me what exactly the second line after jyan-ken-poi
> >is? Tokyo version, let's say.
> >Something isshoo I think but I can't make it out clearly.
> >
> I guess you mean "Aiko desho!" (aiko = tie) This is what you say
> when it's a tie, of course.
Anybody ever hear of the phrase "Atchi muite hoi" as the second
line? Basically, as I understand it, it translates to "Look (or
turn) over there." After a round of Jankenpo, the winner would
immediately say "Atchi muite HOI" and on the "hoi" part, the
winner would point in one direction, either up, down, left, or
right. The loser (again on the HOI) would turn his head in one
of those directions trying to NOT match the direction that the
winner was pointing. I can't recall what the consequences were
for failing to win either the Jankenpo or the Atchimuitehoi,
probably because all I remember is fits of laughter every time
my brother and I played it as kids.
In describing it here, it sounds exceedingly strange now...
Pam.
Patrick Mang
On Fri, 29 Jan 1999 pry...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> seho...@islandnet.com (Sean Holland) wrote:
> > Patrick Mang <m...@leland.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
> >
> > >Can somebody tell me what exactly the second line after jyan-ken-poi
> > >is? Tokyo version, let's say.
> > >Something isshoo I think but I can't make it out clearly.
> > >
> > I guess you mean "Aiko desho!" (aiko = tie) This is what you say
> > when it's a tie, of course.
>
> Anybody ever hear of the phrase "Atchi muite hoi" as the second
> line? Basically, as I understand it, it translates to "Look (or
> turn) over there." After a round of Jankenpo, the winner would
> immediately say "Atchi muite HOI" and on the "hoi" part, the
> winner would point in one direction, either up, down, left, or
> right. The loser (again on the HOI) would turn his head in one
> of those directions trying to NOT match the direction that the
> winner was pointing. I can't recall what the consequences were
> for failing to win either the Jankenpo or the Atchimuitehoi,
> probably because all I remember is fits of laughter every time
> my brother and I played it as kids.
>
> In describing it here, it sounds exceedingly strange now...
>
> Pam.
I've played this as a separate game, but never as part of jyan ken.
-patrick
Monica Crump, Lady Protector of the Realm
scissors, paper. We have friends from southern California who say ro sham bo,
which is what they call the game.
Monica
TDougl8472 wrote:
> >By the way, I watched a Japanese movie on TV in Germany
> >before. In this movie children played the "jankenpon" game.
> >The dialogue was completely dubbed in German. When playing
> >the game, the children said "ein twei drei." (one two three)
> >
> >When I was a child, I said "jan ken hoi" in playing and
> >called the game "janken." I lived in Shikoku.
> >
> >I know it is called "injan" in Osaka and players say "in jan
> >hoi."
> When I was a child in Los Angeles in the 1950's, we also would say "one, two,
> THREE" and throw our fingers on "three". My wife, growing up in Hiroshima
> about the same time, used to shout "jan ken PON" and throw her fingers on
> "PON". She says she never heard of "in jan hoi". The game seems to be played
> around the world, with an amazing number of variations.
--
You may arise.
Ando Shinji
<78q4l0$o3n$1...@msunews.cl.msu.edu>...
>shuji matsuda wrote in message ...
>>By the way, in Osaka it is usually called "injan", but
"janken" is also
>
>What the f*** is "injan"? I have never heard of it.
By the way, I watched a Japanese movie on TV in Germany
before. In this movie children played the "jankenpon" game.
The dialogue was completely dubbed in German. When playing
the game, the children said "ein twei drei." (one two three)
When I was a child, I said "jan ken hoi" in playing and
called the game "janken." I lived in Shikoku.
I know it is called "injan" in Osaka and players say "in jan
hoi."
Ando S.
Gerald B Mathias
: In article <36B09371...@promikra.si>, muchan <muc...@promikra.si>
: wrote:
: >
: > BTW, why "Jyan"? (I don't see the reasong of 'jy'. nitpicking?)
: I thought about this after I posted, especially with all the replies
: referring to "Jan" rather than "Jyan." In hiragana, is it normally
: written with a "JI" and then a small "YA," or is it written with a
: "JI" and a small "A"? Is the latter even "allowed"?
There is no real "JI" in kana. It gets romanized that way because that is
how the real "ZI" (notice it is the kana between "ZA" and "ZU" just as
"KI" comes between "KA" and "KU"). Since "Z(I)ya" (big "ZI" little "YA")
is pronounced "ja," it is a waste of ink, bandwidth, whatever, to add a
meaningless "y."
: If it's written as JI-ya, wouldn't then the romanization be
JYA as : opposed to JI-a resulting in JA?
There's no real harm, but you have to promise to always write "SHYA"
instead of "SHA" too, or you risk being sent to prison for lack of
consistency.
My Honda had some part--starter, generator, alternator, I don't remember
anymore--where the name of the company or something was very
professionally printed up with a "jya" or a "jyo" or something. So
perhaps you are in a minority, but there are some powerful industrial
giants with you. Hold your head high!
Bart
TDougl8472
>before. In this movie children played the "jankenpon" game.
>The dialogue was completely dubbed in German. When playing
>the game, the children said "ein twei drei." (one two three)
>
>When I was a child, I said "jan ken hoi" in playing and
>called the game "janken." I lived in Shikoku.
>
>I know it is called "injan" in Osaka and players say "in jan
>hoi."
Mike Wright
>
> In article <78nmrc$dj7$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
> pry...@my-dejanews.com write
>
> > name for the classic "rock, paper, scissors" game. We had
> > always heard it as "jyan ken po," which spawned a discussion
> > about the literal translation of the phrase.
>
> jan-ken-po) is a shout or call when we do the game.
> A dictionary (新明解) says it (jan-ken) came from a Chinese word
> 両拳.
>
> For those who can't display kanji, it looks like
>
> ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ;, ; ,;
> ; ,,,;,,;,,,;,,,
> ;''''';''''''; ,,,,,,;,,;,,,,,,
> ; , ; , ; ,' ,,;,
> ; ; ; ; ; ,,;'''';' '';,,
> ; ;,,;,,,; ; '''';'''''
> ; ; ''''''';''''''''
> ; ,,; ,,;
How is that not pronounced "ryou"? "jan" makes no sense for the pronunciation.
My little _Sanseido's New Concise Japanese-English Dictionary_ uses hiragana for
the "jan" portion. Furthermore, a search of Edict for "jan" yields only the Mah
Jong kanji 雀 (actually "jaku", the "jan" reading apparently being the result of
an odd mix-up involving some kind of dialect crossover in Chinese terms).
Sanseido's has no words beginning with kanji pronounced "jan". So, "jan" is a
highly suspect sound for a kanji at the beginning of a word. Perhaps it's some
previously unrecorded tousou'on reading? Still, I can't guess what it might be
in Chinese.
The same game in Holo (Taiwanese) is /hua? kun/ 豁拳, where /hua?/ means "to
shout". This combination also appears in Mandarin, where it is read <hua1
quan2>. The Japanese reading would presumably be "kakken" from "katsu" + "ken".
How about Hakka and Cantonese?
--
Mike Wright
http://www.mbay.net/~darwin/language.html
_____________________________________________________
"China is a big country, inhabited by many Chinese."
-- Charles de Gaulle
Lei Tanabe
Yasuaki NAKANO wrote in message ...
>The name of the game is jan-ken in Japanese. Jan-ken-pon (not
>jan-ken-po) is a shout or call when we do the game.
>A dictionary (新明解) says it (jan-ken) came from a Chinese word
>両拳.
>
And what is "pon"?
I assume it's the same as one in "pon to nageru", "pon to keru", etc...
expressing a sort of extruding action.
In the Japanese sociolinguistic 'mistakes' thread, Shuji used the word,
"chanpon" as an expression of mixture.
What do you think about this "pon", the same as the one we discuss about
here?
I feel different, though.
Also, I wonder what the "pon" in the game, mahjong is.
Lei
Gerald B Mathias
: Yasuaki NAKANO wrote:
: >
: > The name of the game is jan-ken in Japanese.
: >
: > For those who can't display kanji, it looks like
: >
: > ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ;, ; ,;
: > ; ,,,;,,;,,,;,,,
: > ;''''';''''''; ,,,,,,;,,;,,,,,,
: > ; , ; , ; ,' ,,;,
: > ; ; ; ; ; ,,;'''';' '';,,
: > ; ;,,;,,,; ; '''';'''''
: > ; ; ''''''';''''''''
: > ; ,,; ,,;
: How is that not pronounced "ryou"? "jan" makes no sense for the pronunciation.
This query reminds me that the detailed discussion of this a few years
back had something on the order of the game and its name being brought by
the Dutch (Portuguese??) from China.
There has to be more to it than that, of course. Most Dutch would be able
to say "lyang" or a close equivalent, which the Japanese would have made
into "ryan" or "ryangu" instead of "jan," but I think that was in the
details someplace.
Wish I could remember those details, but I seem to be having a senior
decade.
Bart
Mike Wright
IIRC, the "pon" in mahjong is <peng4> in Mandarin, meaning "to crash, collide,
bump, strike". There are three variants. I can't find any of them in any
Japanese dictionaries. Here's some crude ASCII art, with the most common form first:
@ @
@ @
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@
If this is the source of the Japanese "pon", then it is probably a relatively
recent borrowing.
Mike Wright
> : >
> : > For those who can't display kanji, it looks like
> : >
> : > ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ;, ; ,;
> : > ; ,,,;,,;,,,;,,,
> : > ;''''';''''''; ,,,,,,;,,;,,,,,,
> : > ; , ; , ; ,' ,,;,
> : > ; ; ; ; ; ,,;'''';' '';,,
> : > ; ;,,;,,,; ; '''';'''''
> : > ; ; ''''''';''''''''
> : > ; ,,; ,,;
>
> : How is that not pronounced "ryou"? "jan" makes no sense for the pronunciation.
>
> This query reminds me that the detailed discussion of this a few years
> back had something on the order of the game and its name being brought by
> the Dutch (Portuguese??) from China.
>
> There has to be more to it than that, of course. Most Dutch would be able
> to say "lyang" or a close equivalent, which the Japanese would have made
> into "ryan" or "ryangu" instead of "jan," but I think that was in the
> details someplace.
>
> Wish I could remember those details, but I seem to be having a senior
> decade.
A search of DejaNews produced nothing. Was it on sci.lang.japan? How far back
was this? Did dinosaurs still roam the earth?
--
Mike "Younger than Springtime" Wright
Jack Oatmon
<snippity snip snip>
>Does anyone out there have some insight as to the meaning and/or
>origin of this phrase? Also, did the game itself originate in
>Asia (something that would be better left to another forum, but
>what the hell)?
Here are some links to what they call out during the game:
http://plaza18.mbn.or.jp/~1976/jyanken/jyanken.htm
http://www.komaba.ecc.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~g730115/o/
BTW, 20 years or so back in Miami, I remember my friends calling out, "In-jun
Joe" while playing PR&S... It might have been a local thing but I wonder if
anyone else heard of this one.
I'm just taking a wild shot at this one but considering the social background
during that period, maybe perhaps some of the Vietnam vets picked up the phrase
'injan' in Kansai and brought it home as: 'Indian (Joe)'
--
Taroh K. YGP Tokyo
'92 H-D FLSTF modified Trike
99%er :-)
joa...@gol.com
Don Kirkman
<36b3ff6c...@nnrp.gol.com>:
>Here are some links to what they call out during the game:
>http://plaza18.mbn.or.jp/~1976/jyanken/jyanken.htm
>http://www.komaba.ecc.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~g730115/o/
>BTW, 20 years or so back in Miami, I remember my friends calling out, "In-jun
>Joe" while playing PR&S... It might have been a local thing but I wonder if
>anyone else heard of this one.
>I'm just taking a wild shot at this one but considering the social background
>during that period, maybe perhaps some of the Vietnam vets picked up the phrase
>'injan' in Kansai and brought it home as: 'Indian (Joe)'
Indian Joe was the villain in Mark Twain's 1876 novel The Adventures of
Tom Sawyer. There is also a Web page using the name Injun Joe's which
seems to be a gambling site. There is an Indian Joe Valley and hiking
trail east of Oakland, CA. I have some dim memory rattling around in my
skull that there was a jazz riff a few decades ago called 'Indian Joe,'
but I don't see a reference to it on the Web.
Sorry, not much help in finding how Indian/Injun Joe got associated with
janken, but your conjecture seems as likely as any (did Vietnam era
troops take R&R in Japan? I know they did during Korea, at the base I
was stationed at. :-)
--
Don
Robato Yao
>In article <78nmrc$dj7$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> pry...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>> origin of this phrase? Also, did the game itself originate in
>> Asia (something that would be better left to another forum, but
>> what the hell)?
>
>
>In the Philippines we have something that sounds just like that, and for the
>same purpose.
>
>We spell it "Diyak en Poi" (Jack and Poi).. I don't know what comes after,
>but I heard "hale hale hoi"... :)
>
>I wonder if the Philippines got it from Japan or vice versa...
>
>--Chris
When I first learned the game, it was in the Philippines and I actually
thought of it as a game taken from Americans---"Jack and Poy".
Only much later---and because I have never taught the game to my own
daughter, did I figure out that it may be Japanese, as my daughter
learned it seperately from her Japanese classmates.
I do think it had a very Taoist touch to it, since it does
represent the equilibrium and balance of the elements, and I do suspect
though it may have some forgotten Chinese origins.
Rgds,
Chris
Gerald B Mathias
: Gerald B Mathias wrote:
: >
: > This query reminds me that the detailed discussion of this a few years
: > back had something on the order of the game and its name being brought by
: > the Dutch (Portuguese??) from China.
: A search of DejaNews produced nothing. Was it on sci.lang.japan? How far back
: was this? Did dinosaurs still roam the earth?
Not that long ago. I didn't get into this group until some time in 1990,
as I recall. I would guess that it was about five years ago, give or take
a year.
It is possible that it was sci.culture.japan. It took me a few years to
learn to stay clear of that NG NG.
Bart
muchan
Is Indian Joe maybe Indie Jones? (Spielberg/Harrison Ford)....
I remember calling "Chikketta", instead of "jan-ken-pon" when I was
child.
I remember another version with slightly modified rule, calling
"Gunkan, guankan chinbotsu",
"Chinbotsu Chinbotsu Hawai...",
which surely reminder of the Pearl harbor, but we, children played
without
thinking about the war. (it's increadible, that such game of 1941-1945
remains among children until late 70s...)
muchan
Chris S.
cro...@kuentos.guam.net (Robato Yao) wrote:
> When I first learned the game, it was in the Philippines and I actually
> thought of it as a game taken from Americans---"Jack and Poy".
Yeah I thought it was something taken from the Americans as well. But
"Tagalogized" if you will :) After I read this thread I looked in some
Mangajin and saw two Japanese guys in a sushi shop saying "jack en pon"....
That really surprised me.
> I do think it had a very Taoist touch to it, since it does
> represent the equilibrium and balance of the elements, and I do suspect
> though it may have some forgotten Chinese origins.
Probably. But did we get it from the Japanese or the Chinese? I'm thinking
that it came during the Japanese occupation of World War II.
--Chris
--
* Mabuhay, sti! * ;)
Pam Ryono
> In northern California, we say one, two, three and we call the game
> rock, scissors, paper. We have friends from southern California who
> say ro sham bo, which is what they call the game.
I had never heard the phrase "ro sham bo" at all growing up in So.
California, but I heard the phrase for the first time last year from
an episode of _South Park_. I thought it was some fabricated phrase
written specifically for the show, but I guess not. From what was
described in the episode, however, it's a far cry from Jan Ken Po.
--
Pam Ryono
pam....@edi.gatech.edu
"No one runs my life. Including, apparently, me."
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Mike Wright
>
> "Monica Crump, Lady Protector of the Realm" <mon...@scruznet.com> wrote:
> > In northern California, we say one, two, three and we call the game
> > rock, scissors, paper. We have friends from southern California who
> > say ro sham bo, which is what they call the game.
>
> I had never heard the phrase "ro sham bo" at all growing up in So.
> California, but I heard the phrase for the first time last year from
> an episode of _South Park_. I thought it was some fabricated phrase
> written specifically for the show, but I guess not. From what was
> described in the episode, however, it's a far cry from Jan Ken Po.
It sounds like "Rochambeau" (leader of the French forces in the American
Revolution). Maybe some gaijin-type kid learned jan ken pon, couldn't remember
the Japanese, and substituted another three quasi-nonsense syllables for it.
--
Mike Wright
Philip Brown
>
>It sounds like "Rochambeau" (leader of the French forces in the American
>Revolution).
yes, I believe that name for the game is of french derivation.
--
[trim the no-bots from my address to reply to me by email!]
--------------------------------------------------
Secret nONsONaTIAL monologue...
H52QdPK4iQPijBgQeMKIUQOCjRg0IN6IYWMGhJszBevIARHGjBuLZTaKCZNx4x0xb0CsWYlQ
jpwxINDAPKMRBB0xYgiqEVMGj0qWbsIQnOMyD4g5ITcaBOGRDYg6C+OwWalAAQ
Robato Yao
>In article <792tlu$tru$1...@brokaw.wa.com>,
> cro...@kuentos.guam.net (Robato Yao) wrote:
>> When I first learned the game, it was in the Philippines and I actually
>> thought of it as a game taken from Americans---"Jack and Poy".
>
>Yeah I thought it was something taken from the Americans as well. But
>"Tagalogized" if you will :) After I read this thread I looked in some
>Mangajin and saw two Japanese guys in a sushi shop saying "jack en pon"....
>That really surprised me.
>
>> I do think it had a very Taoist touch to it, since it does
>> represent the equilibrium and balance of the elements, and I do suspect
>> though it may have some forgotten Chinese origins.
>
>Probably. But did we get it from the Japanese or the Chinese? I'm thinking
>that it came during the Japanese occupation of World War II.
I suspected it came much earlier though, not from the WWII Japanese
occupation but from what used to be Japantown around Ermita, long
before the Spanish destroyed it, after Fil-Japanese revolted from
Spanish colonial abuses. I also think the Filipino dish "adobo" which
looks suspiciously too close to the Japanese dish "gyuniku" also came
from Japantown, and not from Chinatown.
Rgds,
Chris
shuji matsuda
wrote:
>Don Kirkman wrote:
>> It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jack Oatmon wrote in article
>> <36b3ff6c...@nnrp.gol.com>:
>> >I'm just taking a wild shot at this one but considering the social
background
>> >during that period, maybe perhaps some of the Vietnam vets picked up
the phrase
>> >'injan' in Kansai and brought it home as: 'Indian (Joe)'
>>
>> Indian Joe was the villain in Mark Twain's 1876 novel The Adventures
of
>> Tom Sawyer. There is also a Web page using the name Injun Joe's which
>> seems to be a gambling site. There is an Indian Joe Valley and hiking
>> trail east of Oakland, CA. I have some dim memory rattling around in
my
>> skull that there was a jazz riff a few decades ago called 'Indian
Joe,'
>> but I don't see a reference to it on the Web.
>Is Indian Joe maybe Indie Jones? (Spielberg/Harrison Ford)....
I was investigating this 'injan' issue in japan.lang.kansai.
In short, 'injan' was used at least in North Osaka area, including some
part of Hyogo and Kyoto, at least in 1960s-1980s, and perhaps a newly
coined word in the post war era. Some people have noticed the similarity
between 'indian joe' and 'injan'. So, probably it is safe to say it is
not "Indiana Jones". ;)
Testimonies are:
Message-ID: <79136l$g7g$2...@inn.cc.kagoshima-u.ac.jp>
'Injan' was a standard in Juso (Osaka) area in 1960s.
Some people from Kobe did not understand it in 1960s.
Message-ID: <78vtef$58$1...@wa1.seikyou.or.jp>
'Injan', 'jaiken', 'janken' are used in Kyoto area.
Message-ID: <78ugbt$p5q$1...@news01cj.so-net.ne.jp>
'Injan' is used in Nishinomiya (Hyogo).
Message-ID: <78u2ge$age$2...@news1.nisiq.net>
'Injan' is used in Nishinomiya (Hyogo).
Message-ID: <x73e4tj...@zeisei8.dpri.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
'Injan' is used in Takatsuki (Osaka) in 1970s, Neyagawa in 1982-1988
(Osaka).
Message-ID: <78slbl$6ij$2...@news.osk.3web.ne.jp>
'Injan' is not described in "Osaka Kotoba Jiten" by 牧村史陽.
'Injan' is used in 1970s in Amagasaki (Hyogo).
Message-ID: <x790emv...@zeisei8.dpri.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
People laughed when 'injan joe' appeared in animation.
Message-ID: <36B1ED49...@pop21.odn.ne.jp>
'Injan joe' in the animation "the adventure of Tom Sawyer" was actually
'indian Joe'.
--
shuji matsuda smat...@med.keio.ac.jp
Paul Guertin
> On Tue, 02 Feb 1999 15:03:20 -0700, dar...@mbay.net wrote:
> >
> >It sounds like "Rochambeau" (leader of the French forces in the American
> >Revolution).
>
> yes, I believe that name for the game is of french derivation.
The game is called "roche-papier-ciseaux" (rock-paper-scissors)
in French-speaking Quebec. Before South Park, I had never heard
of a game called Rochambeau, in French or English.
Paul Guertin
p...@sff.net
Jim Breen
>>> On Tue, 02 Feb 1999 15:03:20 -0700, dar...@mbay.net wrote:
>>> >
>>> >It sounds like "Rochambeau" (leader of the French forces in the American
>>> >Revolution).
Ah yes, good old Jean-Baptiste. He won the battle of Yorktown, although
most of the history books insist it was George Whatsisname.
>>The game is called "roche-papier-ciseaux" (rock-paper-scissors)
>>in French-speaking Quebec. Before South Park, I had never heard
>>of a game called Rochambeau, in French or English.
Have a look at http://www.gorochambeau.com/default.html
--
Jim Breen School of Computer Science & Software Engineering
Email: j.b...@csse.monash.edu.au Monash University
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/ Clayton VIC 3168 Australia
P: +61 3 9905 3298 F: 9905 3574 ジム・ブリーン@モナシュ大学
Don Kirkman
<7992r6$5ql$1...@towncrier.cc.monash.edu.au>:
>Paul Guertin <p...@sff.net> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 02 Feb 1999 15:03:20 -0700, dar...@mbay.net wrote:
>>>> >It sounds like "Rochambeau" (leader of the French forces in the American
>>>> >Revolution).
>Ah yes, good old Jean-Baptiste. He won the battle of Yorktown, although
>most of the history books insist it was George Whatsisname.
A feat which lingered in American memory, as evidenced by the cry from
the American Expeditionary Forces in the Big War (I) as they arrived in
France: "Lafayette, nous sommes ici!"
--
Don
Wei-Hwa Huang
"Ai Kude Sho" ?
--
Wei-Hwa Huang, whu...@ugcs.caltech.edu, http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~whuang/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pop", "Soda", or "Coke"? http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~almccon/pop_soda/
Sean Holland
(Wei-Hwa Huang) wrote:
>Any theories on the second line, used sometimes when there is a tie:
>"Ai Kude Sho" ?
>
No theory. "Aiko" is a tie, a draw. It is followed by "desho", short
for "deshou", which in this case might best be translated as "I guess".
It's a tie I guess. Or maybe it is speaking of the upcoming result on the
second (third, fourth...) try: I wonder if it will be a tie. Aiko desho.
You can also use it in a sentence like これであいこだ. (This makes us even.)
--
Sean
Due to spam filtering, mail from hotmail or prodigy will not reach me.
Jim Breen
Good to hear. I suspect history was taught a bit better 90 years ago.
BTW, I visted Lafayette's grave in the tiny Picpus cemetary in Paris a
few weeks ago. You can't miss it because it it is festooned with S&S flags
and DAR plaques. I felt vaguely embarrassed by it, as the French are
more austere in their post-mortem expressions. (I was in Picpus, because
it is also the site of one of the mass graves of victims of the Terror.
Andre Chenier, the 16 Carmellites, et al were buried there.)
Wei-Hwa Huang
>In article <79fg8b$4...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, whu...@ugcs.caltech.edu
>(Wei-Hwa Huang) wrote:
>>Any theories on the second line, used sometimes when there is a tie:
>>"Ai Kude Sho" ?
>>
> No theory. "Aiko" is a tie, a draw. It is followed by "desho", short
>for "deshou", which in this case might best be translated as "I guess".
>It's a tie I guess. Or maybe it is speaking of the upcoming result on the
>second (third, fourth...) try: I wonder if it will be a tie. Aiko desho.
> You can also use it in a sentence like これであいこだ. (This makes us even.)
That makes sense -- it's just the rhythm of the chant that
threw me off. "Ai! Kode! Shou!"
--
Wei-Hwa Huang, whu...@ugcs.caltech.edu, http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/‾whuang/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pop", "Soda", or "Coke"? http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/‾almccon/pop_soda/