"Shichinin no Roonin"

[aesthete8]

Wouldn't THAT have been a more correct title of Kurosawa's movie?

And couldn''t the English translation of the title be?:

- Seven Swords for Hire

[Easy Fatman]

Kurosawa's movie?
"Shichinin no Roonin" is wrong,"Shichinin no Samurai" is the correct
Japanese title.
In Japanese writing,that's "七人の侍".
And "Seven Samurai" is the usual English title.
Cf.IMDB
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0047478/
--
Easy Fatman

[aesthete8]

What I meant was considering the social status of the 7 principal
characters, wouldn't SHICHININ NO ROONIN have reflected that better?

[Jim Breen]

On Thursday, 18 October 2012 07:01:47 UTC+11, aesthete8 wrote:

> What I meant was considering the social status of the 7 principal
> characters, wouldn't SHICHININ NO ROONIN have reflected that better?

The point of the plot was that the 7 characters were
samurai. The fact that they were masterless is largely
irrelevant. I doubt Kurosawa or his fellow scriptwriters
considered for a moment using 浪人 in the title.

> > > And couldn''t the English translation of the title be?:
> > > - Seven Swords for Hire

Only by missing much of the point of the plot.

Jim

[Tad Perry]

Just to throw a wrench in the works, there is a major implication in the
film that one of the samurai, isn't a samurai at all, and only pretending to
be one.

So, I guess the ultimate title would be: "Six Samurai and a Vagabond
Wannabe."

tvp

[Ben Bullock]

Since everyone is being so pedantic, since samurais were required to
carry two swords, I think numerically this should be "fourteen swords
for hire".

I did a google image search to find out whether they really did have
two swords each in the film. My search was inconclusive but lead me to
this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2011/may/04/seven-samurai-remake-weinstein

Which is more dreaded, the Keanu Reeves "47 Ronin" or the remake of
Seven Samurai in Thailand?

[Easy Fatman]

(2012/10/18 5:01), aesthete8 wrote:

> What I meant was considering the social status of the 7 principal
> characters, wouldn't SHICHININ NO ROONIN have reflected that better?

From a historical point of view,the problem is not so important.
The movie is interesting and looks like a realism movie,but in fact,the
movie is not so faithful to Japanese history.
Because in Sengoku Era,samurai and farmers are not so quite different
social classes.
The farmers of Sengoku Era were half-armed people,but in this movie,
farmers are described as if they are peasants in Edo Era.
Even in Edo Era,farmers were not in such a situation,the farmers in this
movie looks like all peasants.But that is not a true image of these
days.Even in farmers of these days,some farmers are rich people,
but in this picture farmers are described as if they ara all peasants.
In Sengogu Era,farmers can be a samurai if he is employed as a warrior
by a daimyo or a feudal lord.
If the daimyo is destroyed by the other lord,the samrai employed by the
destroyed daimyo became rounin.
The well known samurai Miyamoto Musashi was not employed by a daimyo for
long days,but he is considerd as a samurai.
Even if he is employed or not,he is a samurai anyway.The word "rounin"
means a not employed samurai.So the word "samurai" includes "rounin".
In the end of the movie,a young samurai left a farmer's daughter for the
reason of difference of the social classes,but in these days such a
borderline between social classes did not exist.Such a borderline
typically appeared in in Edo Era.The movie is not a realism picture.
Mr.Kurosawa is a great artist,but he is not so concious about historical
truth.
In "Kagemusha",there appears a tenshukaku(a castle tower),but in these
days,tenshukaku did not exist.Someone asked him,"In these
days,tenshukaku did not exist.Why did you describe tenshukaku in the
movie?".He answerd,"If the tenshukau did not appear,the picture is not
beautiful." This is Mr.Kurosawa's way of making pictures.

--
Easy Fatman

[aesthete8]

In the following photo, the person on the extreme left has only one
sword while the person on the extreme right has two swords.

Maybe the English title of the movie should have been:

- NOT QUITE 14 SWORDS TO THE RESCUE

[aesthete8]

Now that I think of it, aren't their swords pointing downward in the
Edo-style instead of pointing upward in the pre-Edo style?

[aesthete8]

On Oct 18, 10:30 pm, aesthete8 <art...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sorry for leaving out the photo. Here it is:

http://www.stanford.edu/group/artsreview/cgi-bin/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Seven-Samurai-post-image.jpg

[aesthete8]

On Oct 18, 10:38 pm, aesthete8 <art...@gmail.com> wrote:

Here is another photo with the swords pointing downward instead of
upward:

http://www.cinecultist.com/archives/big_SevenSamurai.jpg

[aesthete8]

According to Wikipedia (see caption of "Shichinin no Samurai" movie
poster):

- Akira Kurosawa's Seven Samurai featured prominently six rōnin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C5%8Dnin

[Easy Fatman]

(2012/10/19 17:38), aesthete8 wrote:

> Now that I think of it, aren't their swords pointing downward in the
> Edo-style instead of pointing upward in the pre-Edo style?

That's right.
Largely speaking,the early Edo Era was the time of changing of carrying
a sword style.

Please refer to the Japanese Wiki.
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%89%93%E5%88%80#.E6.90.BA.E5.B8.AF.E3.81.AE.E6.96.B9.E6.B3.95

> In the following photo, the person on the extreme left has only one
> sword while the person on the extreme right has two swords.

In this case,one is for major using,and another is for backup.

--
Easy Fatman

[aesthete8]

On Oct 17, 11:17 pm, Easy Fatman <easyfat...@yahoo.co.jp> wrote:
> (2012/10/18 5:01),aesthete8wrote:

According to Wikipedia, the movie is set in 1587:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_samurai

[aesthete8]

On Oct 16, 11:37 pm, aesthete8 <art...@gmail.com> wrote:

By the way, considering that the plot is about harassed farmers being
saved by outsiders who know how to fight back, am I the only one who
is reminded of the movie SHANE?

[aesthete8]

On Oct 17, 9:21 pm, Ben Bullock <benkasminbull...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Oct 17, 6:37 pm,aesthete8<art...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Wouldn't THAT have been a more correct title of Kurosawa's movie?
>
> > And couldn''t the English translation of the title be?:
>
> > - Seven Swords for Hire
>
> Since everyone is being so pedantic, since samurais were required to
> carry two swords, I think numerically this should be "fourteen swords
> for hire".
>
> I did a google image search to find out whether they really did have
> two swords each in the film. My search was inconclusive but lead me to
> this:
>

> http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2011/may/04/seven-samurai-remake-weins...

>
> Which is more dreaded, the Keanu Reeves "47 Ronin" or the remake of
> Seven Samurai in Thailand?

When it comes to remakes, what about having it set in 1587--in Ming
China? According to what Mote wrote in his book "Imperial China:
900-1800" about the late Ming:

- ...It therefore was often seen as better to...[try] to resolve
[armed conflicts] by indirect means--negotiating with bandit leaders,
bribing or cajoling through intermediaries, even employing rival
bandit leaders to take action. Those were essentially civilian
responses to the prickly problems of maintaining local order.

[Easy Fatman]

(2012/10/21 18:30), aesthete8 wrote:

> By the way, considering that the plot is about harassed farmers being
> saved by outsiders who know how to fight back, am I the only one who
> is reminded of the movie SHANE?

I don't know you are the only one or not,but as you say,the plot may be
similar to SHANE.
But in Japanese movies,this kind of plot is very familiar.

By the way,Mr.Kurosawa was fond of Wild West films,especially he
respected John Ford.
In "Seven Samurai",perhaps you can find a reflection of Wild West films.

---
Easy Fatman

[muchan]

> > Wouldn't THAT have been a more correct title of Kurosawa's movie?
>

> By the way, considering that the plot is about harassed farmers being
> saved by outsiders who know how to fight back, am I the only one who
> is reminded of the movie SHANE?

　http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magnificent_Seven

[aesthete8]

On Oct 18, 10:30 pm, aesthete8 <art...@gmail.com> wrote:

Or maybe:

- Six Has-Been Samurai and One Wannabe

[Bart Mathias]

? For "Patrick McGee "From Shane to Kill Bill: rethinking the Western". Published by: Wiley-Blackwell, 2007, 262 pp."? Otherwise I don't see the connection.
--
Bart Mathias <mat...@hawaii.edu>

[gggg...@gmail.com]

According to this:

- For the seven samurai hired by the farmers, taking on such unrewarding, surely bleak circumstances attests to their individual ethos; while the peasants remain unable to offer more than rice and a warm bed, each ronin chooses a humanist’s devotion to samurai honor by accepting their terms. Thusly, the title does not refer to them as ronin, but samurai, because based on their selflessness on behalf of the farming village, each remains true to the mores established in bushido code.

https://deepfocusreview.com/definitives/seven-samurai/

[gggg...@gmail.com]

According to this:

- Seven Samurai is an elegiac hymn to the passing of the samurai – the fact, expressed above, that the samurai are in fact ronin is by the by; the seven figures who come to the rescue of the village exemplify the true samurai spirit.

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%22seven+samurai+is+an+elegiac+hymn%22

[gggg gggg]

According to this, the original title was SIX SAMURAI:

https://www.indiewire.com/2012/04/5-things-you-may-not-know-about-akira-kurosawas-seven-samurai-111325/

[gggg gggg]

On Wednesday, October 17, 2012 at 2:37:07 AM UTC-7, aesthete8 wrote:

According to this:

- ...Samurai in the “Warring States” period of Japanese history would often volunteer to stand guard at peasant villages overnight in exchange for food and lodging.

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/78097/16-epic-facts-about-seven-samurai

[gggg gggg]

According to this review of SEVEN SAMURAI:

- ...Each ronin chooses a humanist’s devotion to samurai honor by accepting their terms. Thusly, the title does not refer to them as ronin, but samurai, because based on their selflessness on behalf of the farming village, each remains true to the mores established in bushido code.

https://deepfocusreview.com/definitives/seven-samurai/