quick question: "irarenai"
Charles Eicher
"irarenai" leaked out. I need a quick assist..
The other day, I was in a quick bilingual conversation with a Nihonjin, it
went something like this:
N: <something unintelligible> irarenai..
Me: eh?
N: We have to leave..
Me, thinking to myself: <hmm.. this irarenai must be like -nakereba
narimasen or "beki da">
I have no idea how to approach "irarenai" as it seems rather idiomatic, and
it isn't something I've found in grammar books or dictionaries. I think the
root is "iru" as in "to need" (same kanji as in "hitsuyou").. But I don't
understand its function here, particularly since it seems to be in passive
form. Obviously I missed the preceding phrase, so I have no clue about its
function.
I would appreciate any pointers on "iru" "irareru" and in particular
"irarenai"..
----------------
Charles Eicher
cei...@inav.net
----------------
Nona Myers
Eicher) wrote:
>
>I have no idea how to approach "irarenai" as it seems rather idiomatic, and
>it isn't something I've found in grammar books or dictionaries. I think the
>root is "iru" as in "to need" (same kanji as in "hitsuyou").. But I don't
>understand its function here, particularly since it seems to be in passive
>form. Obviously I missed the preceding phrase, so I have no clue about its
>function.
>
Wrong iru (to need). It's 入る
and when it's used as irarenai, the person is probably saying
"can't go in, can't be there, etc" since you mentioned a
location.
>I would appreciate any pointers on "iru" "irareru" and in particular
>"irarenai"..
>
Asoko ni ha zettai irarenai.
--
Nona Myers
(another hapa and foodie)
To learn about hapa: http://www.wenet.net/‾hapa/
Sean Holland
>Wrong iru (to need). It's 入る
>and when it's used as irarenai, the person is probably saying
>"can't go in, can't be there, etc" since you mentioned a
>location.
>Asoko ni ha zettai irarenai.
>
Could it not also be the negative potential form of いる(to be), so
that いられない is "We can't be here"?
--
Sean
Due to spam filtering, mail from hotmail or prodigy will not reach me.
Yasuaki NAKANO
cei...@inav.net writes
> N: <something unintelligible> irarenai..
> Me: eh?
> N: We have to leave..
> Me, thinking to myself: <hmm.. this irarenai must be like -nakereba
> narimasen or "beki da">
>
> it isn't something I've found in grammar books or dictionaries. I think the
> root is "iru" as in "to need" (same kanji as in "hitsuyou").. But I don't
> understand its function here, particularly since it seems to be in passive
> form.
This is not idiomatic, but a normal pphrase.
I think the phrase you missed may be something like
N: Mou kokoniha irarenai. (We can't stay here any more.)
"Irarenai" = "iru" + "rareru" + "nai."
"Iru" is not "to need" but "to stay" or "to be." In kanji "kyo"
of "zyuukyo."
"Rareru" is not the particle of passive voice, but possibility.
For your information "reru/rareru" have four function, i.e. passive,
possible, spontaneous and honorable.
Yasuaki Nakano
Nona Myers
wrote:
>In article <3613fd37....@nntp.best.com>, no...@best.com (Nona Myers) wrote:
>
>
>>Wrong iru (to need). It's 入る
>>and when it's used as irarenai, the person is probably saying
>>"can't go in, can't be there, etc" since you mentioned a
>>location.
>
>>Asoko ni ha zettai irarenai.
>>
> Could it not also be the negative potential form of いる(to be), so
>that いられない is "We can't be here"?
Yes, it can also be "can't be here", "can't stay here", etc. Can
also be a state of being, as "samishi-ku te irarenai yo."
Gavin Keir
> Could it not also be the negative potential form of いる(to be), so
>that いられない is "We can't be here"?
Charles Eicher
seho...@islandnet.com (Sean Holland) wrote:
> In article <3613fd37....@nntp.best.com>, no...@best.com (Nona Myers)
wrote:
>
>
> >Wrong iru (to need). It's 入る
> >and when it's used as irarenai, the person is probably saying
> >"can't go in, can't be there, etc" since you mentioned a
> >location.
>
> >Asoko ni ha zettai irarenai.
> >
> Could it not also be the negative potential form of いる(to be), so
> that いられない is "We can't be here"?
I got a response via email that from a nihonjin who confirms "iru" as "to
be" so this fits the circumstances. We were at a bar playing pool, and the
bar was closing. This reminds me of the old joke at closing time, "You
don't have to go home, but you can't stay here.."
Anyway, I was sure there were other idiomatic uses of "irarenai" but I'll
try to locate something and see if "can't be" fits in these contexts.
muchan
we cannot stay here.
kore-o iwazuni-wa irarenai :
I can't stay without saying this.
I can't but saying this.
XX-sezu-ni(-wa) irarenai (sezu is negativ of suru)
XX-shinai-de(-wa) irarenai
are typical use.
muchan
Gerald B Mathias
: mou koko-ni-wa irarenai :
: we cannot stay here.
These above are essentially special cases of ...-te-wa irarenai,
which should probably head the list. The original sentence that
Charles heard might have included something like "moo koko-de
asonde-wa ..."?
I can't get a meaning out of "samishiku-te irarenai" in another
post, though. "Samishikute tamaranai"?
Bart
muchan
> muchan (muc...@promikra.si) wrote:
> : mou koko-ni-wa irarenai :
> : we cannot stay here.
>
> : kore-o iwazuni-wa irarenai :
> : I can't stay without saying this.
> : I can't but saying this.
>
> : XX-sezu-ni(-wa) irarenai (sezu is negativ of suru)
> : XX-shinai-de(-wa) irarenai
> : are typical use.
>
> These above are essentially special cases of ...-te-wa irarenai,
> which should probably head the list.
Yes, indeed.
> The original sentence that
> Charles heard might have included something like "moo koko-de
> asonde-wa ..."?
>
I wnder if the Japanese friend would think 'asonde...'.
> I can't get a meaning out of "samishiku-te irarenai" in another
> post, though. "Samishikute tamaranai"?
>
"samishiku-te irarenai"
I can't stand because I'm too sad.
I can't bear this sadness.
etc.
Today's Saturday, not my working day but came to office to send a mail...
Doyoo-demo,okuranai-dewa irarenai?
muchan
Jegs123
In article <361607ED...@promikra.si>, muchan <muc...@promikra.si> writes:
[Bart]
>> I can't get a meaning out of "samishiku-te irarenai" in another
>> post, though. "Samishikute tamaranai"?
>"samishiku-te irarenai"
>I can't stand because I'm too sad.
>I can't bear this sadness.
I'd say "samishiku-te irarenai" is same as "samishiku-te tamaranai". If there's
any difference, it would be negligible, e.g. "samishikute irarenai" might
suggest that s/he be anxious to remove her/himself from the place s/he is in
(iru-koto-ga-dekinai), whereas "samishikute tamaranai" simply describes one's
loneliness.
Tony J
Nona Myers
>
>I'd say "samishiku-te irarenai" is same as "samishiku-te tamaranai". If there's
>any difference, it would be negligible, e.g. "samishikute irarenai" might
>suggest that s/he be anxious to remove her/himself from the place s/he is in
>(iru-koto-ga-dekinai), whereas "samishikute tamaranai" simply describes one's
>loneliness.
>
As I was wondering how to describe the subtleties of these two
phrases, you were able to pin it down while I was still wearing
my thinking cap. (g) Now I can take it off. Thank you.
--
Nona Myers
(another hapa and foodie)
To learn about hapa: http://www.wenet.net/~hapa/
Gerald B Mathias
: "samishiku-te irarenai"
: I can't stand because I'm too sad.
: I can't bear this sadness.
: etc.
That's a stunner! I can't remember ever hearing "...ku-te irarenai"
in the sense of "...ku-te tamaranai," "...ku-te naranai" before.
If I didn't know muchan is more than half my age, and has been out of
Japan for some time, I'd hope it was a new usage that just hasn't
spread to my ken yet. But it looks like it must be that a part of my
memory has rotted away...
Another scary thing. As I was writing my previous post in this
thread, I thought of the expression "ite-mo tatte-mo irarenai."
That in turn brought "itchi-mo satchi-mo" to mind, and I started
to use it in an example. Then I realized I wasn't sure how, so I
looked it up in my dictionary. Nothing! I finally worked my way
up to the 20 volume Shogakukan dictionary, and still, no "itchi-mo
satchi-mo."
I was left with the impression that I must have made that expression
up. But last night I heard it on TV, so I am again sure it must
exist in real life. Why isn't it in the dictionary?
Bart
: Today's Saturday, not my working day but came to office to send a mail...
: Doyoo-demo,okuranai-dewa irarenai?
: muchan
Charles Eicher
Mathias) wrote:
> muchan (muc...@promikra.si) wrote:
>
> : "samishiku-te irarenai"
> : I can't stand because I'm too sad.
> : I can't bear this sadness.
> : etc.
>
> That's a stunner! I can't remember ever hearing "...ku-te irarenai"
> in the sense of "...ku-te tamaranai," "...ku-te naranai" before.
> If I didn't know muchan is more than half my age, and has been out of
> Japan for some time, I'd hope it was a new usage that just hasn't
> spread to my ken yet. But it looks like it must be that a part of my
> memory has rotted away...
yeah, I'd like muchan to go into a bit more detail about that phrase.. I
would have asked already, but I think he said he's out of touch from the
net on weekends..
> Another scary thing. As I was writing my previous post in this
> thread, I thought of the expression "ite-mo tatte-mo irarenai."
AH! That was the idiom I was searching for.. I'm sure there are others, but
now I remember reading that one..
Nona Myers
wrote:
>
>Another scary thing. As I was writing my previous post in this
>thread, I thought of the expression "ite-mo tatte-mo irarenai."
>to use it in an example. Then I realized I wasn't sure how, so I
>looked it up in my dictionary. Nothing! I finally worked my way
>up to the 20 volume Shogakukan dictionary, and still, no "itchi-mo
>satchi-mo."
>
>I was left with the impression that I must have made that expression
>up. But last night I heard it on TV, so I am again sure it must
>exist in real life. Why isn't it in the dictionary?
I may be in error on this, but I thought it was nitchi-mo
satchi-mo as in nitchi-mo satchi-mo ikanai.
Nona Myers
wrote:
>
>in the sense of "...ku-te tamaranai," "...ku-te naranai" before.
This one just came to me. How about "hazukashi ku-te irarenai ja
nai?" I have no idea how to make sense of these two seemingly
negative "nai" because it should then be a positive statement,
but it isn't.
Sean Holland
>This one just came to me. How about "hazukashi ku-te irarenai ja
>nai?" I have no idea how to make sense of these two seemingly
>negative "nai" because it should then be a positive statement,
>but it isn't.
It reminds me of the teacher who told his students "While in some
languages two negatives in a sentence result in a positive statement,
there is no language in which two positives result in a negative."
To which a student in the back replied, "Yeah, right."
Reuben Muns
>I may be in error on this, but I thought it was nitchi-mo
>satchi-mo as in nitchi-mo satchi-mo ikanai.
"In a deadlock".
Reuben
muchan
> muchan (muc...@promikra.si) wrote:
>
> : "samishiku-te irarenai"
> : I can't stand because I'm too sad.
> : I can't bear this sadness.
> : etc.
>
> That's a stunner! I can't remember ever hearing "...ku-te irarenai"
> in the sense of "...ku-te tamaranai," "...ku-te naranai" before.
> If I didn't know muchan is more than half my age, and has been out of
> Japan for some time, I'd hope it was a new usage that just hasn't
> spread to my ken yet. But it looks like it must be that a part of my
> memory has rotted away...
I didn't imagin my words makes so much reaction...Well, I don't know if the expression 'exists', just I understand it
this way if I ever hear it. Do I say it? I don't know. but Do I think it
error if I ever hear it? No.
There was a pop song with title "Romantic-ga tomaranai".
It sounds much more exotic for me than "kanashiku-te irarenai".
(BTW, "kanashimi-ga tomaranai" was also a song title? Wasn't it the daughter
of Hayashiya Sampee?)
Isn't it possibe "okashikutte irarenai" as "okashiittara aryashinai"?
> Another scary thing. As I was writing my previous post in this
> thread, I thought of the expression "ite-mo tatte-mo irarenai."
> That in turn brought "itchi-mo satchi-mo" to mind, and I started
> to use it in an example. Then I realized I wasn't sure how, so I
> looked it up in my dictionary. Nothing! I finally worked my way
> up to the 20 volume Shogakukan dictionary, and still, no "itchi-mo
> satchi-mo."
>
> I was left with the impression that I must have made that expression
> up. But last night I heard it on TV, so I am again sure it must
> exist in real life. Why isn't it in the dictionary?
nitchi-mo satchi-mo ikanai. But I don't know what's "nitchi" and what's"satch". I don't think them related to number 2 and 3, though...
muchan
Gerald B Mathias
: On 5 Oct 1998 23:46:14 GMT, mat...@Hawaii.Edu (Gerald B Mathias)
: wrote:
: >I finally worked my way
: >up to the 20 volume Shogakukan dictionary, and still, no "itchi-mo
: >satchi-mo."
: >
: >I was left with the impression that I must have made that expression
: >up. But last night I heard it on TV, so I am again sure it must
: >exist in real life. Why isn't it in the dictionary?
: I may be in error on this, but I thought it was nitchi-mo
: satchi-mo as in nitchi-mo satchi-mo ikanai.
Well. There are lapses. And then there are lapses.
I had so convinced myself, I even "heard" "nitchi" as "itchi" on
TV. Thanks you, k.i., Reuben, and muchan, for realligning my ear.
Bart
Don Kirkman
<361cc32e...@news.primenet.com>:
>no...@best.com (Nona Myers) wrote:
>>I may be in error on this, but I thought it was nitchi-mo
>>satchi-mo as in nitchi-mo satchi-mo ikanai.
>"In a deadlock".
Thanks to the two of you I found myself described in Mye Olde Kenkyushae
dictionary:
借金で二進も三進も行かない :-)
--
Don
Sean Holland
>
>Thanks to the two of you I found myself described in Mye Olde Kenkyushae
>dictionary:
>
>借金で二進も三進も行かない :-)
Are you telling us that "nitchi mo satchi mo" is written as 二進も三進も?
"Due to my debts neither binary nor trinary will go"? Help! Is this some
ancient deal? If so, what was 二進 (nishin) about before the idea of
binary was needed for math? Or were those old samurai more mathematical
than I thought? (Am I being utterly dense here? Polish royalty need not
respond to that question.)
Nona Myers
wrote:
> Are you telling us that "nitchi mo satchi mo" is written as 二進も三進も?
>"Due to my debts neither binary nor trinary will go"? Help! Is this some
>ancient deal? If so, what was 二進 (nishin) about before the idea of
>binary was needed for math? Or were those old samurai more mathematical
>than I thought? (Am I being utterly dense here? Polish royalty need not
>respond to that question.)
I agree this is very strange, isn't it? My only inadequate J-E
dictionary (Webster's) does't even have nishin. I wonder if it's
something like "after taking the initial step forward, the second
and third steps are non-existent?
--
Nona Myers
(another hapa and foodie)
To learn about hapa: http://www.wenet.net/‾hapa/
Gerald B Mathias
: Are you telling us that "nitchi mo satchi mo" is written as 二進も三進も?
: "Due to my debts neither binary nor trinary will go"? Help! Is this some
: ancient deal? If so, what was 二進 (nishin) about before the idea of
: binary was needed for math? Or were those old samurai more mathematical
: than I thought? (Am I being utterly dense here? Polish royalty need not
: respond to that question.)
Din't look like nobody else was gonna, so I interrupted my lunch and
went down and looked in 20-vol. It says it has something to do with
"nishin injuu [sic]" and "sanshin injuu" (two/three advance one ten)
on the soroban, but doesn't seem to explain the pronunciation.
In the same neighborhood were the variants, "nitchi-mo katchi-mo"
and "nitchi-mo shatchi-mo."
Bart
Don Kirkman
<sehollan-061...@199-175-107-54.islandnet.com>:
>In article <361c9d59...@news.newsguy.com>, new...@abac.com wrote:
>
>>
>>Thanks to the two of you I found myself described in Mye Olde Kenkyushae
>>dictionary:
>>
>>借金で二進も三進も行かない :-)
>
> Are you telling us that "nitchi mo satchi mo" is written as 二進も三進も?
>"Due to my debts neither binary nor trinary will go"? Help! Is this some
>ancient deal? If so, what was 二進 (nishin) about before the idea of
>binary was needed for math? Or were those old samurai more mathematical
>than I thought? (Am I being utterly dense here? Polish royalty need not
>respond to that question.)
No, *I'm* not telling anybody anything. My role, like that of the poet
rehearsing the story of the gingham dog and the calico cat, is but to
present the bare facts as the situation unfolded. :-)
AAR, that spelling is in my 1950s JE Kenkyusha, but not in current
Edict. Kenkyusha has no real etymology or explanation, merely a
definition rather close to Reuben's "In a deadlock". It translates the
phrase above as 'he is involved deeply in debt; another similar example
is translated as 'with his debts increasing and his business
diminishing, he is between two fires."
I'd rather like to see somebody hop in with the derivation of the idiom,
given the strange kanjitukai in the dictionary. (It's also in the
LRDictionary with the same kanji and similar definitions.)
--
Don
Sean Holland
>No, *I'm* not telling anybody anything. My role, like that of the poet
>rehearsing the story of the gingham dog and the calico cat, is but to
>present the bare facts as the situation unfolded. :-)
Please forgive me if my tone seemed indignant. I was aiming more for a
tone of dumbfoundment but, alas, once my words have been typed and posted
I am no longer their master, and they often get up to mischief, the
creatures.
>
(snip)
>I'd rather like to see somebody hop in with the derivation of the idiom,
>given the strange kanjitukai in the dictionary. (It's also in the
>LRDictionary with the same kanji and similar definitions.)
It is the derivation that I, too, would like to see in with somebody
hop. (See what happens when you try not a preposition to end a sentence
with?)
Jim Breen
>>It seems to me I heard somewhere that Sean Holland wrote in article
>><sehollan-061...@199-175-107-54.islandnet.com>:
>>>In article <361c9d59...@news.newsguy.com>, new...@abac.com wrote:
>>>>Thanks to the two of you I found myself described in Mye Olde Kenkyushae
>>>>dictionary:
>>>>借金で二進も三進も行かない :-)
>>>
>>> Are you telling us that "nitchi mo satchi mo" is written as 二進も三進も?
Sho is!
[snip]
>>AAR, that spelling is in my 1950s JE Kenkyusha, but not in current
>>Edict.
Will be next release.
>>Kenkyusha has no real etymology or explanation, merely a
>>definition rather close to Reuben's "In a deadlock". It translates the
>>phrase above as 'he is involved deeply in debt; another similar example
>>is translated as 'with his debts increasing and his business
>>diminishing, he is between two fires."
Maybe I can help. Here are the entries from the Kodansha GJD:
二進も三進も [にっちもさっちも] (adv) ★ 《そろばん用語から出た語》
どうにもこうにも。in no way
二進も三進も行かない [にっちもさっちもいかない] ▼ 窮地に陥って,
身動きが取れない。やりくりができない。be driven into a corner;
have no way out <用例> 借金がかさんで～。
So the binary/ternary refers to drving a soroban.
--
Jim Breen School of Computer Science & Software Engineering
Email: j.b...@csse.monash.edu.au Monash University
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/‾jwb/ Clayton VIC 3168 Australia
P: +61 3 9905 3298 F: 9905 3574 ジム・ブリーン@モナシュ大学
ueshiba kouji
> It says it has something to do with
>"nishin injuu [sic]" and "sanshin injuu" (two/three advance one ten)
>on the soroban, but doesn't seem to explain the pronunciation.
There was (is) a learning method for division named "hassin 八進"
which told how to divide one digit by another one digit.
( I remember I also studied it at soroban-juku in my childhood,
though I forgot almost all except "ni ichi ten saku no go", 1 / 2
= 5).
For example,
divisor | dividend
-------------------------------------------------------
2 | ni ichi ten saku no go 1 / 2 = 5
| ni chin i(n) juu 2 / 2 = 1 (regarded as ten)
3 | san ichi san-juu ichi 1 / 3 = 3 (reg. as thirty)+ 1
| san ni roku-juu ni 2 / 3 = 6 (reg. as sixty) + 2
| san chin i(n) juu 3 / 3 = 1 (reg. as ten)
etc.
(n) of i(n) is the added sound to pronounce more smoothly.
"chin 進" , means a number divided by the same number, not binary
etc. ( "chi" of "nicchi" in the proverb is the collapsed form of "chin")
Hassin had its name because there were eight lines of formula from
two to nine for one digit. (you can get the results for multiple digit
number repeating this calculation when divisor is one digit).
BTW
1. You can guess roughly when this was imported from the yomi
"chin".
2. The method for multiplation is called as "kuku", as you know well,
because the formula consists of 9 X 9 matrix.
3. Today we study "kuku" by its all combination, that is, 81patterns,
though there was another pattern of 45, the half of the current
"kuku" in old days, for 81 patterns have duplicate portions such
as "2 * 7" and "7 * 2".
4. We can see the old real example in Nara period on the exacavated
"mokkan 木簡", the narrow strip of wood for document, while there
are also some example in Man'you-shuu as "gisho 戯書"
Regards,
Kouji Ueshiba
ues...@mtc.biglobe.ne.jp
ueshiba kouji
ueshiba kouji wrote in message <6vibhg$rtu$1...@meshsv230.tk.mesh.ad.jp>...
> (n) of i(n) is the added sound to pronounce more smoothly.
There are some examples also in kuku where (n) sound is added.
- i(n) ni ga ni ( 1 * 2 = 2 )
- ni ni(n) ga shi ( 2 * 2 = 4 )
On the other hand, there is a case in which (n) is deleted
- sa<n> zan ga kyuu ( 3 * 3 = 9 )
Partly in order to make them five or seven syllable, the essential
syllable in Japanese.
>4. We can see the old real example in Nara period on the exacavated
> "mokkan 木簡", the narrow strip of wood for document, while there
> are also some example in Man'you-shuu as "gisho 戯書>
Some examples of gisho 戯書 or gikun 戯訓 :
- 81 for "kuku" ( 9 * 9 = 81 ) in #3242
- 16 for "shishi" (deer) ( 4 * 4 = 16 ) in #239
Regards,
Kouji Ueshiba
ues...@mtc.biglobe.ne.jp
Nona Myers
<ues...@mtc.biglobe.ne.jp> wrote:
>
>There was (is) a learning method for division named "hassin 八進"
>which told how to divide one digit by another one digit.
>( I remember I also studied it at soroban-juku in my childhood,
> though I forgot almost all except "ni ichi ten saku no go", 1 / 2
> = 5).
>
>For example,
>divisor | dividend
>-------------------------------------------------------
>2 | ni ichi ten saku no go 1 / 2 = 5
> | ni chin i(n) juu 2 / 2 = 1 (regarded as ten)
>3 | san ichi san-juu ichi 1 / 3 = 3 (reg. as thirty)+ 1
> | san ni roku-juu ni 2 / 3 = 6 (reg. as sixty) + 2
> | san chin i(n) juu 3 / 3 = 1 (reg. as ten)
> etc.
> (n) of i(n) is the added sound to pronounce more smoothly.
>
>"chin 進" , means a number divided by the same number, not binary
>etc. ( "chi" of "nicchi" in the proverb is the collapsed form of "chin")
>
Thank you very much for this explanation. I am interpreting
(perhaps erroneously) this to mean that even if you divide 2/2
and 3/3 they still equal 1 so that in "nichi-mo satch-mo ikanai"
means that regardless of efforts made, one is still left with
one?
--
Nona Myers
(another hapa and foodie)
To learn about hapa: http://www.wenet.net/~hapa/
Yasuaki NAKANO
seho...@islandnet.com writesさんは書きました。
> In article <361c9d59...@news.newsguy.com>, new...@abac.com wrote:
> >Thanks to the two of you I found myself described in Mye Olde Kenkyushae
> >dictionary:
> >借金で二進も三進も行かない :-)
> Are you telling us that "nitchi mo satchi mo" is written as 二進も三進も?
I am not newsman, but the answer is yes.
> "Due to my debts neither binary nor trinary will go"? Help! Is this some
> ancient deal? If so, what was 二進 (nishin) about before the idea of
> binary was needed for math?
"Nitchin" and "satchin" were technical terms for the abacus (soroban.)
I don't know exact meaning, but they might have something with division
using an abacus.
Yasuaki Nakano
Don Kirkman
<6vhep7$8s$1...@towncrier.cc.monash.edu.au>:
>Don Kirkman <new...@abac.com> wrote:
>>>It seems to me I heard somewhere that Sean Holland wrote in article
>>><sehollan-061...@199-175-107-54.islandnet.com>:
>>>>In article <361c9d59...@news.newsguy.com>, new...@abac.com wrote:
>>>>>Thanks to the two of you I found myself described in Mye Olde Kenkyushae
>>>>>dictionary:
>>>>>借金で二進も三進も行かない :-)
>>>> Are you telling us that "nitchi mo satchi mo" is written as 二進も三進も?
>Sho is!
>[snip]
>>>AAR, that spelling is in my 1950s JE Kenkyusha, but not in current
>>>Edict.
>Will be next release.
It wasn't intended as a hint, but that'll be a nice addition. :-)
>>>Kenkyusha has no real etymology or explanation, merely a
>>>definition rather close to Reuben's "In a deadlock". It translates the
>>>phrase above as 'he is involved deeply in debt; another similar example
>>>is translated as 'with his debts increasing and his business
>>>diminishing, he is between two fires."
>Maybe I can help. Here are the entries from the Kodansha GJD:
>二進も三進も [にっちもさっちも] (adv) ★ 《そろばん用語から出た語》
>どうにもこうにも。in no way
>二進も三進も行かない [にっちもさっちもいかない] ▼ 窮地に陥って,
>身動きが取れない。やりくりができない。be driven into a corner;
>have no way out <用例> 借金がかさんで～。
>So the binary/ternary refers to drving a soroban.
Ah, doumo sankyuu! Since I'm not a licensed soroban driver, I hadn't an
inkling.
--
Don
Reuben Muns
>AAR, that spelling is in my 1950s JE Kenkyusha, but not in current
>Edict. Kenkyusha has no real etymology or explanation, merely a
>definition rather close to Reuben's "In a deadlock". It translates the
>phrase above as 'he is involved deeply in debt; another similar example
>is translated as 'with his debts increasing and his business
>diminishing, he is between two fires."
>
I think it can also be used as the equivalent of the English
"damned if he does, damned if he doesn't".
Reuben
ueshiba kouji
> I am interpreting
>(perhaps erroneously) this to mean that even if you divide 2/2
>and 3/3 they still equal 1 so that in "nichi-mo satch-mo ikanai"
>means that regardless of efforts made, one is still left with one?
Oops, It was the most important point !
If you divide two by two, the number can be divide perfectly (that is
"wari-kireru"),
( BTW, "wari-kireru" in "sore de (kimochi mo) sukkiri wari-kireta"
was derived from this.)
with no remainder, that is, there is no number which should be divided,
("kuri-koshi ( more correctly, "kuri-sagari ?) ga nai").
This "*kuri*-koshi ga *nai* was used as the "kake-kotoba" or share
of "yari-*kuri* ga tsuka-*nai*", and "nichi mo sachi mo" had the current
meaning.
Regards,
Kouji Ueshiba
ues...@mtc.biglobe.ne.jp
Nona Myers
<ues...@mtc.biglobe.ne.jp> wrote:
>If you divide two by two, the number can be divide perfectly (that is
>"wari-kireru"),
> ( BTW, "wari-kireru" in "sore de (kimochi mo) sukkiri wari-kireta"
> was derived from this.)
>with no remainder, that is, there is no number which should be divided,
>("kuri-koshi ( more correctly, "kuri-sagari ?) ga nai").
>This "*kuri*-koshi ga *nai* was used as the "kake-kotoba" or share
>of "yari-*kuri* ga tsuka-*nai*", and "nichi mo sachi mo" had the current
>meaning.
>
Wakarimashita. Wari-kirete kihon-teki na konceputo desu ne.
Gerald B Mathias
: >> That's a stunner! I can't remember ever hearing "...ku-te irarenai"
: >> in the sense of "...ku-te tamaranai," "...ku-te naranai" before.
: >> If I didn't know muchan is more than half my age, and has been out of
: >> Japan for some time, I'd hope it was a new usage that just hasn't
: >> spread to my ken yet. But it looks like it must be that a part of my
: >> memory has rotted away...
: I've heard this phrase pretty frequently in real life, usually in the form
: of
: (most often used by men) "yatte (i)rarenai yo" meaning something like "I
: can't stand stand it" or
: at least expressing real displeasure about some situation (or when just
: joking about something).
Well, Daniel, I guess you didn't notice there is no "ku" in "yatte
(i)rarenai yo," which disqualifies it as "this phrase."
But yours is another stumper for me. I can only understand it as
"I can't keep doing it!" I'll keep my ears tuned for the usage you
note.
Bart
: dan...@yu.incl.or.jp
: Kanazawa,
: Japan
Daniel Holgate
>> in the sense of "...ku-te tamaranai," "...ku-te naranai" before.
>> If I didn't know muchan is more than half my age, and has been out of
>> Japan for some time, I'd hope it was a new usage that just hasn't
>> spread to my ken yet. But it looks like it must be that a part of my
>> memory has rotted away...
I've heard this phrase pretty frequently in real life, usually in the form
of
(most often used by men) "yatte (i)rarenai yo" meaning something like "I
can't stand stand it" or
at least expressing real displeasure about some situation (or when just
joking about something).
Daniel
dan...@yu.incl.or.jp
Kanazawa,
Japan
Gavin Keir
>Daniel Holgate (dan...@yu.incl.or.jp) wrote:
>: >> That's a stunner! I can't remember ever hearing "...ku-te irarenai"
>Well, Daniel, I guess you didn't notice there is no "ku" in "yatte
>(i)rarenai yo," which disqualifies it as "this phrase."
>
>But yours is another stumper for me. I can only understand it as
>"I can't keep doing it!" I'll keep my ears tuned for the usage you
>note.
Maybe it's a contraction of 'yarenai' which I studied recently?
This means "I can't stand it" or the like.
Example:
I can't stand it!
こんなコース取るんじゃなかったよ。
まさか、こんなにレポートが�るなんて思わなかったもんだから。
一つ書き終わったら、また、次の宿題が出るし。
図書館に閉じこもりきりじ
ゃ、やりきれないよ。
Gavin Keir
The above is from my 'learn Japanese page', but it's not worth
visiting until I can spend some time completing it.
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Flats/6356/study.htm