'WO' sound in Japanese language

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aesthete8

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Mar 14, 2004, 8:44:55 PM3/14/04
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Didn't this sound disappear after World War II?

If that's the case, then is it only Americans who say?:

- iWO jima

Bart Mathias

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Mar 14, 2004, 9:19:31 PM3/14/04
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aesthete8 wrote:
> Didn't this sound disappear after World War II?

No, that happened about a thousand years ago. It's not that the sound
itself is necessarily gone, just that it does count as different from
"o." You'll hear it especially after the mora "n," but also in places
like "ueo muuite arukowowowo..."

> If that's the case, then is it only Americans who say?:

> - iWO jima

Pretty much so. Japanese say "ioojima" (kana spelling "iouzima") or
"iootoo." But if a Japanese (as opposed to English) "w" got snuck in
there, no one would notice.

Bart

Phil Healey

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Mar 14, 2004, 9:24:49 PM3/14/04
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aesthete8 wrote:

You still hear it sometimes, especially when the particle is emphasized
when clearing up confusion.

彼、殴ったよ。

彼*が*殴った?彼*を*殴った?

Phil Healey

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Mar 14, 2004, 10:04:31 PM3/14/04
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Bart Mathias wrote:

> Pretty much so. Japanese say "ioojima" (kana spelling "iouzima") or
> "iootoo." But if a Japanese (as opposed to English) "w" got snuck in
> there, no one would notice.

So does transliteration account for all the Uyeharas in Hawaii?

aesthete8

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Mar 15, 2004, 1:28:26 AM3/15/04
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And let's not forget all those the Inouye's.

I think that the 'ye' sound was once pronounced since I have seen old
books in English about Japan say that the Tokugawa capital city was
Yedo.

The same probably applies to the 'wo' sound--that it was once
pronounced. For instance, I think that the word for male 'osu' was
once 'wosu'. (But I could be wrong.)

Phil Healey

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Mar 15, 2004, 2:06:07 AM3/15/04
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aesthete8 wrote:

> The same probably applies to the 'wo' sound--that it was once
> pronounced. For instance, I think that the word for male 'osu' was
> once 'wosu'. (But I could be wrong.)

The question is when they stopped pronouncing it, and also when they
stopped pronouncing the ん in 坊主.

jim_...@i-never-read-hotmail.com

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Mar 15, 2004, 3:08:56 AM3/15/04
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aesthete8 <aest...@hotmail.com> dixit:

>I think that the 'ye' sound was once pronounced since I have seen old
>books in English about Japan say that the Tokugawa capital city was
>Yedo.

Well it was once *written* that way, but as Bart said, the
pronunciation changed a long time ago, probably before 江戸 even
became a fishing village. Until the late 1940s
things were spelled in funny ways, many of which didn't seem
to relate well to the pronunciation. Just like English really.

>The same probably applies to the 'wo' sound--that it was once
>pronounced. For instance, I think that the word for male 'osu' was
>once 'wosu'. (But I could be wrong.)

It was written をす or ヲス, but for centuries the first syllable was
pronounced as お or オ.

--
Jim Breen http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/
Computer Science & Software Engineering,
Monash University, VIC 3800, Australia
ジム・ブリーン@モナシュ大学

Collin McCulley

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Mar 14, 2004, 10:11:00 PM3/14/04
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"Phil Healey" <com.hotmail@psa_healey> wrote in message news:Rt85c.28090$Zo6....@twister.socal.rr.com...

I could swear I hear it in songs sometimes, too.

--Collin


Paul Blay

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Mar 15, 2004, 8:15:27 AM3/15/04
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"Collin McCulley" wrote ...
> "Phil Healey" <com.hotmail@psa_healey> wrote ...

> > aesthete8 wrote:
> >
> > > Didn't this sound disappear after World War II?
> > >
> > > If that's the case, then is it only Americans who say?:
> >
> > You still hear it sometimes, especially when the particle is emphasized
> > when clearing up confusion.
>
> I could swear I hear it in songs sometimes, too.

M3 t00 </aol>

Tae Kim

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Mar 15, 2004, 10:56:44 AM3/15/04
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<jim_...@i-never-read-hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:swd5c.104117$Wa.1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...


Is that related to how they used to write ふ for the long う sounds?
Actually, I have a friend whose father is a big literature buff and her name
is really interesting. Forget the kanji, but in hiragana, it's ゆふ which
is actually pronounced ゆう. I call her ゆうふちゃん anyway, regardless.
Heh, heh.

Wow... to think that the god of WWWJDIC would be hanging around here...
Brr!

-Tae Kim

jim_...@i-never-read-hotmail.com

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Mar 15, 2004, 5:15:58 PM3/15/04
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Tae Kim <kimc...@super-r.net> dixit:

><jim_...@i-never-read-hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:swd5c.104117$Wa.1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>
>> It was written をす or ヲス, but for centuries the first syllable was
>> pronounced as お or オ.

>Is that related to how they used to write ふ for the long う sounds?

Yes. (One of these days I'd like to get a good summary of 旧仮名使い
into a WWW page.)

>Wow... to think that the god of WWWJDIC would be hanging around here...

Got my eye on you, laddy.

Bart Mathias

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Mar 15, 2004, 7:02:18 PM3/15/04
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I gave an example yesterday, from the "Sukiyaki Song." But that
"arukowowowo" wouldn't be written 歩こををを.

I think you guys are forgetting that the typical Japanese speaker still
has trouble pronouncing things like ウォール街 without a real う. And
no one would dream of spelling that ヲール街.

When someone happens to say を or お with a velar on-glide, that's just
a version of "o." The reason one hears it so often after ん is because
the tongue starts out in a position close to that for the glide.

Bart

Bart Mathias

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Mar 15, 2004, 7:12:28 PM3/15/04
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There is evidence that either を became [o] or お became [wo] in the
Heian period, the earlier part, I believe. Certainly they were no
longer distinguished when Fujiwara no Teika used the お group vs. the を
group to indicate accent (アクセント).

Are you sure they ever pronounced an ん in 坊主? I've never heard of
that. One would suppose it was originally pronounced something like
[baNusu].

Bart

Bart Mathias

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Mar 15, 2004, 7:24:22 PM3/15/04
to
aesthete8 wrote:
>>Pretty much so. Japanese say "ioojima" (kana spelling "iouzima") or
>>
>>>"iootoo." But if a Japanese (as opposed to English) "w" got snuck in
>>>there, no one would notice.
>>
>>So does transliteration account for all the Uyeharas in Hawaii?
>
>
> And let's not forget all those the Inouye's.
>
> I think that the 'ye' sound was once pronounced since I have seen old
> books in English about Japan say that the Tokugawa capital city was
> Yedo.

I think if you pay attention, you'll still hear the "ye" sound from time
to time (and I'm talking about Japan, not Hawai`i). But it hasn't been
distinct from "e" since the 9th or 10th century, just two ways of saying
the same thing. Very likely for much of the last millennium or so, ?
was pronounced "ye" [je], and I'm sure it remains prevalent in some
dialects.

> The same probably applies to the 'wo' sound--that it was once
> pronounced. For instance, I think that the word for male 'osu' was
> once 'wosu'. (But I could be wrong.)

Eighth and ninth centuries, for sure. But for the last millennium wosu,
wotoko, wonna, woru (to be, stay; snap), wobune, towo (10), etc., have
been pronounced the same as wosu, wotoko, wonna, woru, wobune, too,
etc., whether that was with or without "w" at any particular time or place.

Bart

Phil Healey

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Mar 15, 2004, 7:30:16 PM3/15/04
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Bart Mathias wrote:

> Are you sure they ever pronounced an ん in 坊主? I've never heard of
> that. One would suppose it was originally pronounced something like
> [baNusu].

My bad.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=bonze

I was assuming the borrowing came from 坊主, but apparently it was 梵僧.

necoandjeff

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Mar 15, 2004, 8:04:48 PM3/15/04
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"Bart Mathias" <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote in message
news:MDr5c.51419$rW6....@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...

One thing I would highly recommend to anyone interested in Japanese
etymology is to read some books on ancient Japanese history, particularly
the ones that cover the period of late Yayoi through Asuka or Nara. You
really pick up a lot of the evolution and or origin of various words in
Japanese. A few gems that I have learned recently:

1. Azuma (東 or east) is actually the antonym of Satsuma (the ancient name
of a prefecture in Kyushu)

2. Miya (palace or 宮) actually comes from the wago elements 御家 or
"honorable house"

3. Similarly miyako (都) actually comes from the wago elements 御家処 or
"location of honorable house"

4. Mikotonori (詔 or edict) comes from the wago elements 御言法(also 則) or
"honorable word law/order"

5. Hattori (服部 the surname) and the interesting combination of kanji comes
from "hataoribe" or 機織部 which means "clan of weavers." The kanji for
"hataori" was dropped and replaced with the kanji "fuku" for clothing, and
the pronunciation was shortened from "hataoribe" to "hattoribe" and the "be"
was eventually dropped giving the modern hattori.

There are many others that I can't think of at the moment. If anyone can
think of others, please share them. I love learning about word origins like
this.

Jeff

Dan Rempel

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Mar 15, 2004, 8:30:25 PM3/15/04
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aesthete8 wrote:

>>Pretty much so. Japanese say "ioojima" (kana spelling "iouzima") or
>>
>>>"iootoo." But if a Japanese (as opposed to English) "w" got snuck in
>>>there, no one would notice.
>>
>>So does transliteration account for all the Uyeharas in Hawaii?
>
>
> And let's not forget all those the Inouye's.

Or good old Yebisu Beer.

Dan

Collin McCulley

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Mar 15, 2004, 11:15:48 PM3/15/04
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"Bart Mathias" <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote in message news:eur5c.51417$rW6....@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...

I don't know a velar on-glide from a hole in
wall street, but I was referring specifically to hearing the
"w" pronounced in the particle itself, not something
done for effect like in "ue wo muite".
I can probably come up with an example, if you'd like to
hear one.

--Collin


Louise Bremner

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Mar 16, 2004, 1:56:15 AM3/16/04
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Tae Kim <kimc...@super-r.net> wrote:

> Wow... to think that the god of WWWJDIC would be hanging around here...

Stop and think about that for a moment.... Where else would he find such
an assortment of expertise in the Japanese language, in English?

________________________________________________________________________
Louise Bremner (log at gol dot com)
If you want a reply by e-mail, don't write to my Yahoo address!

Wiktor S.

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Mar 16, 2004, 5:54:11 AM3/16/04
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> I think you guys are forgetting that the typical Japanese speaker still
> has trouble pronouncing things like ウォール街 without a real う. And
> no one would dream of spelling that ヲール街.

Has ヲ any use in today's Japanese?


--
Azarien

e-mail: wswiktor.fm<dot>interia.pl<slash>mail.html

jim_...@i-never-read-hotmail.com

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Mar 16, 2004, 6:25:01 AM3/16/04
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Wiktor S. <wswi...@poczta.fmv> dixit:

>Has ヲ any use in today's Japanese?

I saw a guy on a train using one to remove nasal hair.

Chris Kern

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Mar 16, 2004, 6:44:11 AM3/16/04
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On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 11:54:11 +0100, "Wiktor S." <wswi...@poczta.fmv>
posted the following:

>> I think you guys are forgetting that the typical Japanese speaker still
>> has trouble pronouncing things like ウォール街 without a real う. And
>> no one would dream of spelling that ヲール街.
>
>Has ヲ any use in today's Japanese?

Yep. Sometimes katakana is used instead of hiragana for a variety of
stylistic reasons, and in that case the particle "wo" would be written
with that character.

-Chris

Paul Blay

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Mar 16, 2004, 7:22:41 AM3/16/04
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"Chris Kern" wrote ...

> On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 11:54:11 +0100, "Wiktor S." <wswi...@poczta.fmv>
> posted the following:
>
> >Has ヲ any use in today's Japanese?
>
> Yep. Sometimes katakana is used instead of hiragana for a variety of
> stylistic reasons, and in that case the particle "wo" would be written
> with that character.

Generally the "I vant to dvink your blud" type of stylistic reason. [Monsters & demons]
Alternatively the "Ze ist der foreigner speekening Japanese not well." type of stylistic reason. [Gaijin]

Chris Kern

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Mar 16, 2004, 8:03:05 AM3/16/04
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On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 12:22:41 -0000, "Paul Blay"
<ra...@saotome.demon.co.uk> posted the following:

>"Chris Kern" wrote ...

>> Yep. Sometimes katakana is used instead of hiragana for a variety of
>> stylistic reasons, and in that case the particle "wo" would be written
>> with that character.
>
>Generally the "I vant to dvink your blud" type of stylistic reason. [Monsters & demons]
>Alternatively the "Ze ist der foreigner speekening Japanese not well." type of stylistic reason. [Gaijin]

Or "this was written using a piece of technology that supports only
katakana" (I still see that "wo" character appear on my fax machine
every so often -- the little display that notifies me when an error
has occured or a fax is incoming only supports katakana.)

-Chris

Kevin Wayne Williams

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Mar 16, 2004, 9:25:48 AM3/16/04
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Wiktor S. wrote:

>>I think you guys are forgetting that the typical Japanese speaker still
>>has trouble pronouncing things like ウォール街 without a real う. And
>>no one would dream of spelling that ヲール街.
>
>
> Has ヲ any use in today's Japanese?
>
>

Sometimes you will see text written in pure katakana (foreigners and the
occasional monster in manga, telegrams for some reason, etc). and it is
used as a particle. I'm not aware of any other use.

KWW

Tae Kim

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Mar 16, 2004, 11:30:05 AM3/16/04
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"Wiktor S." <wswi...@poczta.fmv> wrote in message
news:c36mcj$ppa$1...@flis.man.torun.pl...

Yes, I bet you need it to run the Matrix binary. It's all around you.

-Tae Kim

Wiktor Sywula (ao)

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Mar 16, 2004, 2:54:26 PM3/16/04
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> >Has ヲ any use in today's Japanese?
>
> I saw a guy on a train using one to remove nasal hair.


Eh?

David Nettles

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Mar 16, 2004, 6:56:48 PM3/16/04
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Wiktor S. wrote:
>>I think you guys are forgetting that the typical Japanese speaker still
>>has trouble pronouncing things like ウォール街 without a real う. And
>>no one would dream of spelling that ヲール街.
>
>
> Has ヲ any use in today's Japanese?
>
>

I found it in the title of a song by 元ちとせ callled 「君ヲ想ウ」...
but maybe this is done for style reasons?

I also checked Breen's EDICT and extracted the following:

[j_places]
j_places:ナロヲ [なろお] /Naroo (loc)/
j_places:ヲヒテ川 [おひてかわ] /Ohitekawa (loc)/
j_places:ヲヲガケ [おおがけ] /Oogake (loc)/
j_places:深草ヲカヤ町 [ふかくさおかやちょう] /Fukakusaokayachou (loc)/

[enamdict]
enamdict:アキヲ [あきお] /Akio (g)/
enamdict:カヲリ /Kawori (f)/Kaori/
enamdict:カヲル [かおる] /Kaoru (g)/
enamdict:サヲ [さお] /Sao (g)/
enamdict:チカヲ [ちかお] /Chikao (g)/
enamdict:ツルヲ [つるお] /Tsuruo (g)/
enamdict:テツヲ [てつお] /Tetsuo (g)/
enamdict:ナロヲ [なろお] /Naroo (p)/
enamdict:ナヲエ [なおえ] /Naoe (g)/
enamdict:ナヲ子 [ナヲこ] /Nawoko (f)/Naoko/
enamdict:ミサヲ /Misawo (f)/Misao/
enamdict:ミツヲ /Mitsuwo (f)/Mitsuo/
enamdict:ヤヲ [やお] /Yao (g)/
enamdict:ヨリヲ [よりお] /Yorio (g)/
enamdict:深草ヲカヤ [ふかくさおかや] /Fukakusaokaya (p)/

--
David Nettles
web: http://www.miteyo.org
email: tetsuo...@yahoo.co.jp

Bart Mathias

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Mar 16, 2004, 7:25:24 PM3/16/04
to

Could you share that with us? I didn't know anyone knew the etymology
of either of those names. That didn't stop people from making some up
(e.g. in 風土記), of course, but your comment would seem to be based on
some new idea. Two kinds of "ma"? Whaddat?

> 2. Miya (palace or 宮) actually comes from the wago elements 御家 or
> "honorable house"

You're just carrying on the joke with "honorable," right?

> ...

> There are many others that I can't think of at the moment. If anyone can
> think of others, please share them. I love learning about word origins like
> this.

I bet I could think of some if I were sure about the "like this." Two
Japanese elements "hidden" in a word written with one kanji?

Bart

aesthete8

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Mar 16, 2004, 7:31:56 PM3/16/04
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Getting back to Japanese songs, I think that one can hear 'wo' in
songs because when singing I have noticed that the Japanese pronounce
each syllable as written.

For instance, 'kirei' is sung ki-re-i, but spoken as ki-re-e.

"Tae Kim" <kimc...@super-r.net> wrote in message news:<c379tb$qcn$1...@news.wplus.net>...

necoandjeff

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Mar 16, 2004, 7:32:35 PM3/16/04
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"Bart Mathias" <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote in message
news:UVM5c.33365$F9.2...@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...

> > Japanese. A few gems that I have learned recently:
> >
> > 1. Azuma (東 or east) is actually the antonym of Satsuma (the ancient
name
> > of a prefecture in Kyushu)
>
> Could you share that with us? I didn't know anyone knew the etymology
> of either of those names. That didn't stop people from making some up
> (e.g. in 風土記), of course, but your comment would seem to be based on
> some new idea. Two kinds of "ma"? Whaddat?

Wow. I'll see if I can go back and find it.

> > 2. Miya (palace or 宮) actually comes from the wago elements 御家 or
> > "honorable house"
>
> You're just carrying on the joke with "honorable," right?

You've lost me. I'm not sure of the best way to translate "mi" but I chose
honorable off the top of my head. Mi is often used as an honorific,
particularly for things related to the emperor (miya, miyako, mikoto, miko,
etc.) but of course you know this. What am I missing?

> > ...
>
> > There are many others that I can't think of at the moment. If anyone can
> > think of others, please share them. I love learning about word origins
like
> > this.
>
> I bet I could think of some if I were sure about the "like this." Two
> Japanese elements "hidden" in a word written with one kanji?

Something like that. The most obvious example I've ever come across is 双子
which obviously is from 二つ and 子. But I've read miya and miyako for years
without ever thinking of the wago roots of those words. I'd love to know
others that may not be as obvious.

Jeff

Bart Mathias

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Mar 16, 2004, 7:42:15 PM3/16/04
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jim_...@i-never-read-hotmail.com wrote:
> ... (One of these days I'd like to get a good summary of 旧仮名使い
> into a WWW page.)

Whate would a good summary have in it? It's hard to imagine what one
could say, except that originally people wrote things as pronounced, and
then when pronunciation changed so that the relationship between
spelling and pronunciation was blurred people spelled anyway they wanted
to (or ascribed to one of several artificial orthographies invented
along the way).

Nowadays when people write in 旧仮名遣ひ, they use 歴史的仮名遣ひ, based
on a time when orthography and pronunciation coincided fairly well.

Speaking of canna, is there a way to upgrade the "dictionary"? I would
have rather used Pq (hex 5071) than 仮 above, but か doesn't bring it up.

Bart

Bart Mathias

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Mar 16, 2004, 7:54:13 PM3/16/04
to

Akin to the use that David Nettles found in EDICT, some dictionaries
will indicate kiukanadukahi with katakana. So like if you look up かつ
お in 新明解国語辞典, right after the akusento inidicator there's カツヲ
in small print.

Bart

jim_...@i-never-read-hotmail.com

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Mar 16, 2004, 8:17:50 PM3/16/04
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Bart Mathias <mat...@hawaii.edu> dixit:

>jim_...@i-never-read-hotmail.com wrote:
>> ... (One of these days I'd like to get a good summary of 旧仮名使い
>> into a WWW page.)

>Whate would a good summary have in it? It's hard to imagine what one
>could say, except that originally people wrote things as pronounced, and
>then when pronunciation changed so that the relationship between
>spelling and pronunciation was blurred people spelled anyway they wanted
>to (or ascribed to one of several artificial orthographies invented
>along the way).

Well, what I had in mind was some tables like:

漢字 current old

京都 きょうと きゃうと
今日 きょう けふ
教育 きょういく けういく
... ... ...

In other words, as things were treated in the first half of the
20thC.

Do you have a source?

>Nowadays when people write in 旧仮名遣ひ, they use 歴史的仮名遣ひ, based
>on a time when orthography and pronunciation coincided fairly well.

>Speaking of canna, is there a way to upgrade the "dictionary"? I would
>have rather used Pq (hex 5071) than 仮 above, but か doesn't bring it up.

假? I use xjdic for things like that. I even have 假名 in JMdict/EDICT.

I'm sure there are ways of adding to a private dictionary within Canna,
but I've never explored it.Maybe there are some clues at
http://www.nec.co.jp/canna/ I see there's a 209-page manual (as a
PDF file.)

necoandjeff

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Mar 16, 2004, 8:31:16 PM3/16/04
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<jim_...@i-never-read-hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2HN5c.106708$Wa.7...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

> Bart Mathias <mat...@hawaii.edu> dixit:
> >jim_...@i-never-read-hotmail.com wrote:
> >> ... (One of these days I'd like to get a good summary of 旧仮名使い
> >> into a WWW page.)
>
> >Whate would a good summary have in it? It's hard to imagine what one
> >could say, except that originally people wrote things as pronounced, and
> >then when pronunciation changed so that the relationship between
> >spelling and pronunciation was blurred people spelled anyway they wanted
> >to (or ascribed to one of several artificial orthographies invented
> >along the way).
>
> Well, what I had in mind was some tables like:
>
> 漢字 current old
>
> 京都 きょうと きゃうと
> 今日 きょう けふ
> 教育 きょういく けういく
> ... ... ...
>
> In other words, as things were treated in the first half of the
> 20thC.
>
> Do you have a source?

I think many dictionaries contain this information. Kojien is one that comes
to mind. It's those similar but not quite the same hiragana that come right
after the main entry to which I've pretty much never paid any attention. I
don't think they're contained in my denshi jisho version of kojien but they
were in my CD-ROM version and I assume the paper version as well.

Jeff

jim_...@i-never-read-hotmail.com

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Mar 16, 2004, 8:58:52 PM3/16/04
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necoandjeff <sp...@schrepfer.com> dixit:

><jim_...@i-never-read-hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:2HN5c.106708$Wa.7...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>> Well, what I had in mind was some tables like:
>>
>> 京都 きょうと きゃうと
>> 今日 きょう けふ
>> 教育 きょういく けういく
>> ... ... ...
>>
>> In other words, as things were treated in the first half of the
>> 20thC.
>>
>> Do you have a source?

>I think many dictionaries contain this information. Kojien is one that comes
>to mind. It's those similar but not quite the same hiragana that come right
>after the main entry to which I've pretty much never paid any attention. I
>don't think they're contained in my denshi jisho version of kojien but they
>were in my CD-ROM version and I assume the paper version as well.

They are there in the electronic editions of 広辞苑:

きょう‐いく【教育】ケウ‥

I was hoping for a summary 8-)}

Jim

necoandjeff

unread,
Mar 16, 2004, 9:13:08 PM3/16/04
to
<jim_...@i-never-read-hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:whO5c.106743$Wa.1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

> necoandjeff <sp...@schrepfer.com> dixit:
> ><jim_...@i-never-read-hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:2HN5c.106708$Wa.7...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> >> Well, what I had in mind was some tables like:
> >>
> >> 京都 きょうと きゃうと
> >> 今日 きょう けふ
> >> 教育 きょういく けういく
> >> ... ... ...
> >>
> >> In other words, as things were treated in the first half of the
> >> 20thC.
> >>
> >> Do you have a source?
>
> >I think many dictionaries contain this information. Kojien is one that
comes
> >to mind. It's those similar but not quite the same hiragana that come
right
> >after the main entry to which I've pretty much never paid any attention.
I
> >don't think they're contained in my denshi jisho version of kojien but
they
> >were in my CD-ROM version and I assume the paper version as well.
>
> They are there in the electronic editions of 広辞苑:
>
> きょう‐いく【教育】ケウ‥
>
> I was hoping for a summary 8-)}

Ah. Like a conversion formula or something. Are these old readings
susceptible to an auto-convert function like that? I really don't know much
about them.

Jeff

SuperOutland

unread,
Mar 17, 2004, 1:03:36 AM3/17/04
to
aest...@hotmail.com (aesthete8) wrote in message news:<e615dbbc.04031...@posting.google.com>...

> Didn't this sound disappear after World War II?
>
> If that's the case, then is it only Americans who say?:
>
> - iWO jima

I know im not the first one to say this, but im pretty sure i hear a
slight english "w" sound in "wo" in japanese music

And no, dont say its the "mystical nature of music that cause you to
hear the "w"

SuperOutland

unread,
Mar 17, 2004, 1:05:22 AM3/17/04
to
>
> 5. Hattori (服部 the surname) and the interesting combination of kanji comes
> from "hataoribe" or 機織部 which means "clan of weavers."


I guess that is why all japanese people name hattori are complete wimps

SuperOutland

unread,
Mar 17, 2004, 1:06:53 AM3/17/04
to
"Collin McCulley" <coll...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<105baku...@corp.supernews.com>...

>
> I could swear I hear it in songs sometimes, too.
>

> --Collin

Ah shit you beat me to it!

Bart Mathias

unread,
Mar 17, 2004, 12:26:50 PM3/17/04
to
necoandjeff wrote:
> "Bart Mathias" <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote
> ...

>>You're just carrying on the joke with "honorable," right?
>
>
> You've lost me. I'm not sure of the best way to translate "mi" but I chose
> honorable off the top of my head. Mi is often used as an honorific,
> particularly for things related to the emperor (miya, miyako, mikoto, miko,
> etc.) but of course you know this. What am I missing?

I was alluding to the popular translation of "o-/go-/mi-" words with
"honorable" carried into contexts where it is utterly silly.

I think the sense of "mi-" is (was) something on the order of "sacred,
taboo."

> Something like that. The most obvious example I've ever come across is 双子
> which obviously is from 二つ and 子. But I've read miya and miyako for years
> without ever thinking of the wago roots of those words. I'd love to know
> others that may not be as obvious.

OK. That's the sort of thing that comes naturally to me, probably to
excess; I have been accused of "atomizing." I'll try a variety when I'm
not rushed to get ready for today's hike and see whether they amuse you.

Bart

necoandjeff

unread,
Mar 17, 2004, 12:46:41 PM3/17/04
to
"Bart Mathias" <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote in message
news:uT%5c.116519$6K.6...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...

> necoandjeff wrote:
> > "Bart Mathias" <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote
> > ...
> >>You're just carrying on the joke with "honorable," right?
> >
> >
> > You've lost me. I'm not sure of the best way to translate "mi" but I
chose
> > honorable off the top of my head. Mi is often used as an honorific,
> > particularly for things related to the emperor (miya, miyako, mikoto,
miko,
> > etc.) but of course you know this. What am I missing?
>
> I was alluding to the popular translation of "o-/go-/mi-" words with
> "honorable" carried into contexts where it is utterly silly.
>
> I think the sense of "mi-" is (was) something on the order of "sacred,
> taboo."

Well, I agree "honorable" sounds a bit silly. But I don't think "taboo"
works. And "sacred?" I suppose. But it implies too much of a religious
connection. I think the whole "direct descendent of amaterasu" stuff came
significantly later than the use of the prefix "mi." And people aren't
getting all religious when they say "omizu." What's wrong with honorable
anyway? "deserving of honor." Honor is a purely secular expression. I like
it.

> > Something like that. The most obvious example I've ever come across is
双子
> > which obviously is from 二つ and 子. But I've read miya and miyako for
years
> > without ever thinking of the wago roots of those words. I'd love to know
> > others that may not be as obvious.
>
> OK. That's the sort of thing that comes naturally to me, probably to
> excess; I have been accused of "atomizing." I'll try a variety when I'm
> not rushed to get ready for today's hike and see whether they amuse you.

I knew this would be the sort of thing you enjoy. Tanoshimi ni shite imasu.

Jeff

Bart Mathias

unread,
Mar 17, 2004, 12:49:26 PM3/17/04
to
jim_...@i-never-read-hotmail.com wrote:
> Bart Mathias <mat...@hawaii.edu> dixit:
>
>>jim_...@i-never-read-hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>... (One of these days I'd like to get a good summary of 旧仮名使い
>>>into a WWW page.)
>
> ..., what I had in mind was some tables like:

>
> 漢字 current old
>
> 京都 きょうと きゃうと
> 今日 きょう けふ
> 教育 きょういく けういく
> ... ... ...
>
> In other words, as things were treated in the first half of the
> 20thC.
>
> Do you have a source?

Not in the sense of having a random list of words that happened to be
different in kyuukanazukai from the current orthography. Just the
standard dictionaries, most of which indicate the old spellings.

It looks like you are perhaps thinking of tables of single examples of
different old ways of spelling that have been replaced by one, such as
よう/ょう having roots in よう/ょう, やう/ゃう, -eう, -eふ, やふ/ゃ
ふ. If that's the case, and one example of each would suffice, than it
wouldn't be 20 minutes work to come up with one, and a few of the
exceptional cases (e.g. たお <ー たふす) thrown in. If that's the
case, let me know.

> ...

>>Speaking of canna, is there a way to upgrade the "dictionary"? I would
>>have rather used Pq (hex 5071) than 仮 above, but か doesn't bring it up.
>
>
> 假? I use xjdic for things like that. I even have 假名 in JMdict/EDICT.

Obviously you can use xjdic in Mozilla. I'll see if I can find it and
figure out how to use it.

Would I be able to get things like "+ (81A9) with it, so I wouldn't have
to use <ー as above?

I don't know how to get anything beyond seven-bit ASCII, such as
accented, tilded, macroned letters in Linux yet. Some things are so
much easier on an Amiga!

> I'm sure there are ways of adding to a private dictionary within Canna,
> but I've never explored it.Maybe there are some clues at
> http://www.nec.co.jp/canna/ I see there's a 209-page manual (as a
> PDF file.)

As my favorite philosopher would say, "Yucchh!"

Bart

necoandjeff

unread,
Mar 17, 2004, 1:04:06 PM3/17/04
to
"Bart Mathias" <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote in message
news:Gc06c.36550$F9....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...

> jim_...@i-never-read-hotmail.com wrote:
> > Bart Mathias <mat...@hawaii.edu> dixit:
> >
> >>jim_...@i-never-read-hotmail.com wrote:
> >>
> >>>... (One of these days I'd like to get a good summary of 旧仮名使い
> >>>into a WWW page.)
> >
> > ..., what I had in mind was some tables like:
> >
> > 漢字 current old
> >
> > 京都 きょうと きゃうと
> > 今日 きょう けふ
> > 教育 きょういく けういく
> > ... ... ...
> >
> > In other words, as things were treated in the first half of the
> > 20thC.
> >
> > Do you have a source?
>
> Not in the sense of having a random list of words that happened to be
> different in kyuukanazukai from the current orthography. Just the
> standard dictionaries, most of which indicate the old spellings.
>
> It looks like you are perhaps thinking of tables of single examples of
> different old ways of spelling that have been replaced by one, such as
> よう/ょう having roots in よう/ょう, やう/ゃう, -eう, -eふ, やふ/ゃ
> ふ. If that's the case, and one example of each would suffice, than it
> wouldn't be 20 minutes work to come up with one, and a few of the
> exceptional cases (e.g. たお <ー たふす) thrown in. If that's the
> case, let me know.

By the way, I made a misstatement last night. My denshi jisho version of
kojien does include these old spellings. And I went through and checked a
few and there doesn't seem to be a ready conversion formula unless you
remember them for each individual kanji. For example shou 小 (しょう) was せ
う whereas 商(しょう)was しやう. And かんきょう was variously くわんけふ
(緩頬)、かんけう(艦橋)、くわんきやう(環境) or かんきやう(漢鏡)

Phil Healey

unread,
Mar 17, 2004, 1:52:09 PM3/17/04
to
necoandjeff wrote:

> Well, I agree "honorable" sounds a bit silly. But I don't think "taboo"
> works. And "sacred?" I suppose.

How are "sacred" and "taboo" different?

> But it implies too much of a religious
> connection. I think the whole "direct descendent of amaterasu" stuff came
> significantly later than the use of the prefix "mi."

But secularism came last of all, remember.

> And people aren't
> getting all religious when they say "omizu." What's wrong with honorable
> anyway? "deserving of honor." Honor is a purely secular expression. I like
> it.

Don't forget 御御足, where the Japanese themselves seem to be making fun
of "honorableness."

Paul Blay

unread,
Mar 17, 2004, 1:59:41 PM3/17/04
to
"Phil Healey" wrote ...

> necoandjeff wrote:
>
> > Well, I agree "honorable" sounds a bit silly. But I don't think "taboo"
> > works. And "sacred?" I suppose.
>
> How are "sacred" and "taboo" different?

If it's "sacred" you can hide there from the vampires chasing you but
if it's "taboo" your shruken head is found on a stake a few weeks later.

Paul "hope this helps" Blay

Bart Mathias

unread,
Mar 17, 2004, 9:07:22 PM3/17/04
to
necoandjeff wrote:
> "Bart Mathias" <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote ...

>>I think the sense of "mi-" is (was) something on the order of "sacred,
>>taboo."

> Well, I agree "honorable" sounds a bit silly. But I don't think "taboo"
> works. And "sacred?" I suppose. But it implies too much of a religious
> connection. I think the whole "direct descendent of amaterasu" stuff came
> significantly later than the use of the prefix "mi." And people aren't
> getting all religious when they say "omizu." What's wrong with honorable
> anyway? "deserving of honor." Honor is a purely secular expression. I like
> it.

I wasn't talking about "o-." Even if it derives from "ohomi-" (I don't
remember whether that is concensus or not), "o-" is considerably
degraded. And when is water deserving of honor?

"Mi-" may have predated the version of creation pushed by the imperial
line, but I doubt it predated a priestly class. "Holy house" works
pretty well for "miya." Not just anyone was allowed through the mikado.
Aren't miyama and misora rather spiritual places? I can't demonstrate
that the "m" or "mori" has anything to do with "mi-," but it doesn't
strike me as unlikely.

I'll get back to you about that other stuff later.

Bart

necoandjeff

unread,
Mar 17, 2004, 9:25:41 PM3/17/04
to
"Bart Mathias" <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote in message
news:uv76c.119118$6K.3...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...

Miyama perhaps but miya? It strikes me more as reverence than spirituality.
Just as the word palace doesn't strike me at all as being spiritual even
though the same rules of exclusivity, deserving of respect, etc. surely
applied to western palaces.

Jeff

Bart Mathias

unread,
Mar 17, 2004, 9:58:44 PM3/17/04
to
necoandjeff wrote:
> ...

> By the way, I made a misstatement last night. My denshi jisho version of
> kojien does include these old spellings. And I went through and checked a
> few and there doesn't seem to be a ready conversion formula unless you
> remember them for each individual kanji. For example shou 小 (しょう) was せ
> う whereas 商(しょう)was しやう. And かんきょう was variously くわんけふ
> (緩頬)、かんけう(艦橋)、くわんきやう(環境) or かんきやう(漢鏡)

Right. It's a many-to-one thing; the conversion can only go the other way.

A few centuries back, all cases of vowel + "u" (which "u" may have been
written originally as う, being the end of a Sino-Japanese reading or a
pure Japanese う resulting from the loss of "k" in く, or else written
ふ of which the intervocalic "h [p/f]" had ceased to be pronounced)
assimilated to a single long vowel. If the preceding vowel was "u,"
obviously it's just a long "u." If it was an "i" (as in the きう of き
うかなづかひ or as in the case of 言ふ) the result was a long "u" with a
"y" in front.

The actual kana spelling remained rather random (although there were
schools of orthography based on all kinds of weird ideas) until
rekishiteki kanazukai was recovered and given the nod during the Meiji
period, and the spellings I'm using here became correct. Then about
half a century ago a spelling reform resulted in things being written
(with some strange exceptions) as pronounced, and きう became きゅう, い
ふ became いう (oops, there's an exception--we'd expect ゆう--due to its
being a verb, I suppose).

The other changes involving う and ふ were their being pronounced "o"
after an "e" or an "o." In the case of "e(h)u," the frontness of the
first vowel left a trace, the initial "y" sound.

In the case of what would be like "(-)a(h)u" in rekishiteki kanazukai,
both vowels changed to a lower "o" than the case of "(-)o(h)u" and
"(-)e(h)u"--we know this only because the Portuguese distinguished them
in romanization--but before long the two kinds of long "o" merged into one.

I messed up an attempt to give an exceptional case yesterday, leaving
the す out of たふす which became たおす with the spelling reform. One
would have expected the たふ to become pronounced "too" rather than "tao."

Another oddity is the word for "get seasick/drunk." Early in the
history of Japanese it was pronounced "wepu" and thus spelled ゑふ. Then
"w" ceased to be pronounced except when followed by the lowest vowel,
"a," and the original "p" changed to "h" and people quit pronouncing it
in the middle of most words (what true exceptions can you think of
besides あひる and あふれる?). The remaining pronunciation "eu" then
went through the assimilation-to-long-vowel bit, resulting in "yoo."
And finally, in the dialects that ultimately preserved a "(-)u" at the
end of verbs, we end up with the pronunciation "you" (not "yoo") for the
spelling よう.

Oops! Sorry, I guess I got よそに運ばれた.

Bart

Bart Mathias

unread,
Mar 17, 2004, 10:07:04 PM3/17/04
to
aesthete8 wrote:
> Getting back to Japanese songs, I think that one can hear 'wo' in
> songs because when singing I have noticed that the Japanese pronounce
> each syllable as written.
>
> For instance, 'kirei' is sung ki-re-i, but spoken as ki-re-e.

That happens with cases of "ee" spelled with an e-retsu kana followed by
the kana for "," but probably nothing else. You'll rarely, if ever,
hear an "oo" spelled "ou" sung as "ou." You'll never hear a singer sing
"watashi ha."

And I doubt you'll ever hear a singer sing "wo" because the particle is
a wa-gyou kana. All that kana is is a special way to write "o" when
it's a grammaticaly thingy.

"W" remains unnatural in Japanese before anything but "a," and it's weak
there as well.

Bart

necoandjeff

unread,
Mar 17, 2004, 10:42:02 PM3/17/04
to
"Bart Mathias" <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote in message
news:Ef86c.119357$6K.9...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...

> Oops! Sorry, I guess I got よそに運ばれた.

The practical question I have is, how does one pronounce these old spellings
nowadays? For example, if I were reading aloud an old book (I have a set of
books entitled 日本文学史 from the 1950s, for example, that use old
spellings), and I were to come across 言ふ or 思ふ, should I pronounce the
final kana as ふ or う? Back in the day, were these spoken words actually
pronounced the way one would pronounce these kana today? I've never actually
heard Japanese pronounce any of these old words I've only seem them in
print.

Jeff

jim_...@i-never-read-hotmail.com

unread,
Mar 18, 2004, 12:25:58 AM3/18/04
to

Let me try and clarify a little, and maybe get some feedback on what
people think may be useful. My first reaction was as I proposed above.
Now I wonder about something like:

Current Old Kanji (+ examples)

きょう きゃう 京 (京都)

きやう 饗 (...)

けう 轎 (轎輿)
驕 (驕児)

and as well have a set of verb/adjective examples, e.g.

叶う 叶ふ

Do you think it possible to run something like that up?

jim_...@i-never-read-hotmail.com

unread,
Mar 18, 2004, 12:32:26 AM3/18/04
to
necoandjeff <sp...@schrepfer.com> dixit:

>By the way, I made a misstatement last night. My denshi jisho version of
>kojien does include these old spellings. And I went through and checked a
>few and there doesn't seem to be a ready conversion formula unless you
>remember them for each individual kanji. For example shou 小 (しょう) was せ
>う whereas 商(しょう)was しやう. And かんきょう was variously くわんけふ
>(緩頬)、かんけう(艦橋)、くわんきやう(環境) or かんきやう(漢鏡)

I have the 広辞苑 on file, and I can (potentially) run a programmed
scan of all the kanji-containing headwords in EDICT against it and
extract all the cases of 旧仮名使い. It would be rather nice to have
a reasonably comprehensive set of kanji with their old readings in
a file form.

As you noted above, くわん -> かん seems very common.

jim_...@i-never-read-hotmail.com

unread,
Mar 18, 2004, 12:42:23 AM3/18/04
to
Bart Mathias <mat...@hawaii.edu> dixit:

>Right. It's a many-to-one thing; the conversion can only go the other way.

>A few centuries back, all cases of vowel + "u" (which "u" may have been
>written originally as う, being the end of a Sino-Japanese reading or a
>pure Japanese う resulting from the loss of "k" in く, or else written
>ふ of which the intervocalic "h [p/f]" had ceased to be pronounced)
>assimilated to a single long vowel. If the preceding vowel was "u,"
>obviously it's just a long "u." If it was an "i" (as in the きう of き
>うかなづかひ or as in the case of 言ふ) the result was a long "u" with a
>"y" in front.

>The actual kana spelling remained rather random (although there were
>schools of orthography based on all kinds of weird ideas) until
>rekishiteki kanazukai was recovered and given the nod during the Meiji
>period, and the spellings I'm using here became correct. Then about
>half a century ago a spelling reform resulted in things being written
>(with some strange exceptions) as pronounced, and きう became きゅう, い
>ふ became いう (oops, there's an exception--we'd expect ゆう--due to its
>being a verb, I suppose).

You know that this posting just has to be recorded for posterity. In fact
I think it's going to be part of the explanatory notes of the page
of 歴史的仮名遣い/旧仮名遣い

>The other changes involving う and ふ were their being pronounced "o"
>after an "e" or an "o." In the case of "e(h)u," the frontness of the
>first vowel left a trace, the initial "y" sound.

>In the case of what would be like "(-)a(h)u" in rekishiteki kanazukai,
>both vowels changed to a lower "o" than the case of "(-)o(h)u" and
>"(-)e(h)u"--we know this only because the Portuguese distinguished them
>in romanization--but before long the two kinds of long "o" merged into one.

>I messed up an attempt to give an exceptional case yesterday, leaving
>the す out of たふす which became たおす with the spelling reform. One
>would have expected the たふ to become pronounced "too" rather than "tao."

>Another oddity is the word for "get seasick/drunk." Early in the
>history of Japanese it was pronounced "wepu" and thus spelled ゑふ. Then
> "w" ceased to be pronounced except when followed by the lowest vowel,
>"a," and the original "p" changed to "h" and people quit pronouncing it
>in the middle of most words (what true exceptions can you think of
>besides あひる and あふれる?). The remaining pronunciation "eu" then
>went through the assimilation-to-long-vowel bit, resulting in "yoo."
>And finally, in the dialects that ultimately preserved a "(-)u" at the
>end of verbs, we end up with the pronunciation "you" (not "yoo") for the
>spelling よう.

I see in 広辞苑 it says for 酔う: "よ・う【酔う】ヨフ" but adds:
"□自五□(ヱフの転)"

>Oops! Sorry, I guess I got よそに運ばれた.

Don't stop.

Eamer

unread,
Mar 18, 2004, 8:28:09 AM3/18/04
to
necoandjeff wrote:
> "Bart Mathias" <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote in message
> news:Ef86c.119357$6K.9...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
>
>
>>Oops! Sorry, I guess I got よそに運ばれた.
>
>
> The practical question I have is, how does one pronounce these old spellings
> nowadays? For example, if I were reading aloud an old book (I have a set of
> books entitled 日本文学史 from the 1950s, for example, that use old
> spellings), and I were to come across 言ふ or 思ふ, should I pronounce the
> final kana as ふ or う?

「言ふ」は「いう」、「てふてふ」は「ちょうちょう」と普通は読みます。

当然旧仮名遣いで書かれていることをわざと強調する場合はこの限りではないです。

過去についてはこのスレッドでもいくつも素晴らしい解説があったので、話を現
在に移すと:
旧仮名遣いやそれを模倣した物(要するに本来は間違い)の形を取ったスラング
的表現がいくつもあります。例えば、「~しませう」や「痛ひ!」など。積極的
に使うことをお勧めするものではありませんが、とても面白い話だと思います。

eamer

Bart Mathias

unread,
Mar 18, 2004, 2:30:51 PM3/18/04
to
necoandjeff wrote:
> "Bart Mathias" <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote in message
> news:uv76c.119118$6K.3...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
>...

>>"Mi-" may have predated the version of creation pushed by the imperial
>>line, but I doubt it predated a priestly class. "Holy house" works
>>pretty well for "miya." Not just anyone was allowed through the mikado.
>>Aren't miyama and misora rather spiritual places? I can't demonstrate
>>that the "m" or "mori" has anything to do with "mi-," but it doesn't
>>strike me as unlikely.
>
>
> Miyama perhaps but miya? It strikes me more as reverence than spirituality.
> Just as the word palace doesn't strike me at all as being spiritual even
> though the same rules of exclusivity, deserving of respect, etc. surely
> applied to western palaces.

? Are you equating shrines and "palaces" just because miya can be used
of shrines (miyamairi, e.g.) and the imperial palace? Were there any
"miyanushi" (I think I made that word up) who didn't have godly ancestors?

Back to the etymology bit, I've thought of a couple three kinds of
things that might be interesting.

First is the word "hedatete" that was up for discussion recently. The
verb "hedateru" must have originated in an expression like "he-wo
tateru," although there are no clear instances of "he" surviving as an
independent word meaning "barrier." That "he" is thought to show up in
"heya" and nigoried in "kabe," with "ka" as in "arika, sumika" (my own
suspicion has ben that the "ka" may rather be that of "kagiru" but I
don't know that anyone agrees).

Many methods of derivation have been productive at different times in
the history of the language. One that may still be boerderline
productive was turning things into verbs with "-m- (-mu, -meru)" such as
"tashika" to "tashikameru" or "arata" to "aratameru." Probably no one
fails to notice "haramu" as "activate(?) the belly." Almost as obvious
is "tsukamu"--"activate(?) the handle/grip." "Rikimu" is a rare example
based on a Chinese root.

Dozens of this type are obvious, though many are obscure because people
don't know the root words well enough, e.g. "(w)osameru" = "govern,
rule" from "(w)osa" = "leader, chief." Is the etymology of
"kiw(<h)a-meru" obvious? The shift in meaning for modern "yasui" may
make the source of "yasumu" less than fully obvious.

Probably most people are faintly aware of the relationship of "(w)emu"
to "(w)ega(h)o," but "emu" is probably *not* an example of derivation
with "-mu." There is no evidence of "e" as a word; "egao" must come
from *"wemikaho." On the other hand, there is no (other) evidence of a
word "kuya," but "kuyamu" surely has to be related to "ku(y)-iru" and
"kuyashii" (I wonder why there's no such word as "kuyashimeru"?).

Can you come up with a possible etymology for "sumu"? (Perhaps no one
would accept my speculations on this word.)

I was planning to go into turning verbs into nouns by adding "-a," but
this is already pretty long. I'll wait to see whether anyone is interested.

Bart Mathias

unread,
Mar 18, 2004, 2:49:59 PM3/18/04
to
Eamer wrote:
> necoandjeff wrote:
>
>>"Bart Mathias" <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote in message
>>news:Ef86c.119357$6K.9...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
>>
>>
>>
>>>Oops! Sorry, I guess I got よそに運ばれた.
>>
>>
>>The practical question I have is, how does one pronounce these old spellings
>>nowadays? For example, if I were reading aloud an old book (I have a set of
>>books entitled 日本文学史 from the 1950s, for example, that use old
>>spellings), and I were to come across 言ふ or 思ふ, should I pronounce the
>>final kana as ふ or う?
>
>
> 「言ふ」は「いう」、「てふてふ」は「ちょうちょう」と普通は読みます。

お言葉ですが I can't imagine anyone saying "iu" unless they were telling
someone how to spell「言う」, especially in reading bungo.

Besides reading bungo completely according to the historical sound
changes (nobody would read 「てふてふ」 as "tefutefu" except for special
effect), it has been common to extend that to verb endings in ふ as in
the Muromachi(?) period. Thus, 言ふ would (still) be "yuu," and 思ふ
would be "omoo." 給ふ would be "tamoo," etc.

Although I have noticed one horrid example (I can't bring it to mind at
the moment) of messing up earlier parts of words, I don't think anyone
reads things like 倒る (たふる) other than "taoru." (Not "tafuru," not
"tooru.")

Bart

necoandjeff

unread,
Mar 18, 2004, 3:01:57 PM3/18/04
to
"Bart Mathias" <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote in message
news:LNm6c.62339$rW6....@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...

> necoandjeff wrote:
> > "Bart Mathias" <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote in message
> > news:uv76c.119118$6K.3...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
> >...
> >>"Mi-" may have predated the version of creation pushed by the imperial
> >>line, but I doubt it predated a priestly class. "Holy house" works
> >>pretty well for "miya." Not just anyone was allowed through the mikado.
> >>Aren't miyama and misora rather spiritual places? I can't demonstrate
> >>that the "m" or "mori" has anything to do with "mi-," but it doesn't
> >>strike me as unlikely.
> >
> >
> > Miyama perhaps but miya? It strikes me more as reverence than
spirituality.
> > Just as the word palace doesn't strike me at all as being spiritual even
> > though the same rules of exclusivity, deserving of respect, etc. surely
> > applied to western palaces.
>
> ? Are you equating shrines and "palaces" just because miya can be used
> of shrines (miyamairi, e.g.) and the imperial palace? Were there any
> "miyanushi" (I think I made that word up) who didn't have godly ancestors?

No. I think miya in its pure form is palace not shrine. It is used in words
like 神宮 of course but isn't that just "palace of the Gods?" Maybe I'm
tainted by the books I'm reading because the various emperors throughout
Asuka jidai were constantly moving around to like 15 or 20 different palaces
and the name of each is XXXの宮.

> Back to the etymology bit, I've thought of a couple three kinds of
> things that might be interesting.
>
> First is the word "hedatete" that was up for discussion recently. The
> verb "hedateru" must have originated in an expression like "he-wo
> tateru," although there are no clear instances of "he" surviving as an
> independent word meaning "barrier." That "he" is thought to show up in
> "heya" and nigoried in "kabe," with "ka" as in "arika, sumika" (my own
> suspicion has ben that the "ka" may rather be that of "kagiru" but I
> don't know that anyone agrees).

He? Yeah, I suppose a fart could be considered a form of barrier...

Seriously, that's interesting. I hadn't thought of it. As for "he"
surviving, what about hei meaning "fence." Couldn't that figure into it
somehow? Either "he" became "hei" or "hei" became the "he" of hedateru.

> Many methods of derivation have been productive at different times in
> the history of the language. One that may still be boerderline
> productive was turning things into verbs with "-m- (-mu, -meru)" such as
> "tashika" to "tashikameru" or "arata" to "aratameru." Probably no one
> fails to notice "haramu" as "activate(?) the belly." Almost as obvious
> is "tsukamu"--"activate(?) the handle/grip." "Rikimu" is a rare example
> based on a Chinese root.
>
> Dozens of this type are obvious, though many are obscure because people
> don't know the root words well enough, e.g. "(w)osameru" = "govern,
> rule" from "(w)osa" = "leader, chief." Is the etymology of
> "kiw(<h)a-meru" obvious? The shift in meaning for modern "yasui" may
> make the source of "yasumu" less than fully obvious.

I love osameru. Hadn't thought of that one.

Kiwameru = Kiwa = edge. To approach the edge/extreme of something?

I too have suspected yasumu is related to yasui.

> Probably most people are faintly aware of the relationship of "(w)emu"
> to "(w)ega(h)o," but "emu" is probably *not* an example of derivation
> with "-mu." There is no evidence of "e" as a word; "egao" must come
> from *"wemikaho." On the other hand, there is no (other) evidence of a
> word "kuya," but "kuyamu" surely has to be related to "ku(y)-iru" and
> "kuyashii" (I wonder why there's no such word as "kuyashimeru"?).

I can't think of a possible root for emu either. But using the root in
various words without the mi doesn't strike me as odd. egao, ekubo, etc.

> Can you come up with a possible etymology for "sumu"? (Perhaps no one
> would accept my speculations on this word.)

I hadn't thought about it but once the question is posed it seems obvious.
su = nest.

> I was planning to go into turning verbs into nouns by adding "-a," but
> this is already pretty long. I'll wait to see whether anyone is
interested.

No, continue.

Bart Mathias

unread,
Mar 18, 2004, 3:14:22 PM3/18/04
to
> ...

>>It looks like you are perhaps thinking of tables of single examples of
>>different old ways of spelling that have been replaced by one, such as
>>よう/ょう having roots in よう/ょう, やう/ゃう, -eう, -eふ, やふ/ゃ
>>ふ. If that's the case, and one example of each would suffice, than it
>>wouldn't be 20 minutes work to come up with one, and a few of the
>>exceptional cases (e.g. たお <ー たふす) thrown in. If that's the
>>case, let me know.
>
>
> Let me try and clarify a little, and maybe get some feedback on what
> people think may be useful. My first reaction was as I proposed above.
> Now I wonder about something like:
>
> Current Old Kanji (+ examples)
>
> きょう きゃう 京 (京都)
>
> きやう 饗 (...)
>
> けう 轎 (轎輿)
> 驕 (驕児)
>
> and as well have a set of verb/adjective examples, e.g.
>
> 叶う 叶ふ
>
> Do you think it possible to run something like that up?

I suppose so. As for your last example, we have the "conversion
formula" Jeff was looking for: Replace the う ending of any verb with
ふ. There were no う (-w-u) verbs in earlier Japanese. You can extend
this rule to include all conjugations of う such as 叶わず, 叶いつつ, 叶
えば, etc. These have to be ハ行: 叶はず、叶ひつつ、叶へば, etc.

I can't think of anything interesting about adjectives


And then another time jim_...@i-never-read-hotmail.com wrote:
> ...


> I have the 広辞苑 on file, and I can (potentially) run a programmed
> scan of all the kanji-containing headwords in EDICT against it and
> extract all the cases of 旧仮名使い. It would be rather nice to have
> a reasonably comprehensive set of kanji with their old readings in
> a file form.
>
> As you noted above, くわん -> かん seems very common.

I bet you won't find any くxゑん or ぐxゑつ. (Lucky for canna, which
doesn't seem to know how to make a small ゑ!) I've seen those, but
apparently they're not official 旧仮名使い.

Bart

Phil Healey

unread,
Mar 18, 2004, 3:41:39 PM3/18/04
to
Bart Mathias wrote:

> I was planning to go into turning verbs into nouns by adding "-a," but
> this is already pretty long. I'll wait to see whether anyone is interested.

Please, for the sake of us etymological crack addicts, continue.

Gotta feed that snake!

Wiktor S.

unread,
Mar 18, 2004, 4:25:06 PM3/18/04
to
> I know im not the first one to say this, but im pretty sure i hear a
> slight english "w" sound in "wo" in japanese music

But it's not necesarilly a particle wo, but words like "aoi" [awoyi] too.


--
Azarien

e-mail: wswiktor.fm<dot>interia.pl<slash>mail.html

Wiktor S.

unread,
Mar 18, 2004, 4:42:02 PM3/18/04