Haraheru?
Reuben Muns
>From my experience living here, I know that people use it quite frequently
>(mostly men) in the past tense form はらへた or to stress it maybe, I also hear
>はらへった. I can't tell anything about colloquial or proper but only that it
>seems to be quite common.
I once worked in an office with several Japanese. We developed a
"ritual" at lunchtime which began with one of them saying "aa
hara heta" and continued with a discussion of where we would eat.
It quite often ended up with us going to the little restaurant in
the basement of the building, where most of us ate shogayaki.
Reuben
Jim Breen
EDICT entry. It is not in any dictionary that I have in that form, just
in the 腹が減る はらがへる form, however the henkan files *do* have
腹減る/はらへる.
Am I right in guessing that 腹減る is a colloquial form of 腹が減る?
--
Jim Breen [j.b...@csse.monash.edu.au http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/]
Computer Science & Software Engineering, Tel: +61 3 9905 3298
Monash University, Fax: +61 3 9905 3574
Clayton VIC 3168, Australia ジム・ブリーン@モナシュ大学
Derek Rupnow
(mostly men) in the past tense form はらへた or to stress it maybe, I also hear
はらへった. I can't tell anything about colloquial or proper but only that it
seems to be quite common.
Jim Breen wrote:
--
/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
/ Derek Rupnow de...@wsdc.nml.mot.com
/ Motorola Japan Ltd, Wireless System Development Center
/ 3 Bankan 3F, Hikarinooka 7-1, Yokosuka-shi, Kanagawa-ken, Japan 239-0847
/ Phone +81-468-47-5978 Fax +81-468-47-6500
/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Lei Tanabe
"Reuben Muns" <rm...@primenet.com> wrote in message
news:go39csslqj5f04kuu...@4ax.com...
> Derek Rupnow <de...@wsdc.nml.mot.com> wrote:
>
> >From my experience living here, I know that people use it quite
frequently
> >(mostly men) in the past tense form はらへた or to stress it maybe,
I also hear
> >はらへった. I can't tell anything about colloquial or proper but
only that it
> >seems to be quite common.
>
> "ritual" at lunchtime which began with one of them saying "aa
> hara heta" and continued with a discussion of where we would eat.
> It quite often ended up with us going to the little restaurant in
> the basement of the building, where most of us ate shogayaki.
"はらへった hara hetta" is a colloquial expression generally used among men.
Women's version is probably "おなかすいた onaka suita".
The basic forms are "はらがへる hara ga heru" and "おなかがすく onaka ga
suku", respectively.
There is a well-known saying "腹が減っては軍ができぬ hara ga hettewa ikusa
ga dekinu" which means that nothing can be done with an empty stomach."
There are many "hara+" words and some of them can be used without particles,
but not for the above case.
Lei
Reuben Muns
>"はらへった hara hetta" is a colloquial expression generally used among men.
My associate did not say "hara hetta", he said "hara heta".
Reuben
muchan
>
> "はらへった hara hetta" is a colloquial expression generally used among men.
> The basic forms are "はらがへる hara ga heru" and "おなかがすく onaka ga
> suku", respectively.
> There is a well-known saying "腹が減っては軍ができぬ hara ga hettewa ikusa
> ga dekinu" which means that nothing can be done with an empty stomach."
> There are many "hara+" words and some of them can be used without particles,
> but not for the above case.
>
> Lei
/hara-peko/ is from "hara-ga hekonda"?
Is there any other expression to use /peko/ from "hekom.u"?
"pekopeko-suru" is "jibun-o hekom.ase.ru"?
muchan
Takamori Kaida
--
This has been brought to you by:
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=================================================
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Don Kirkman
<EZhx4.725$t_2....@news.clear.net.nz>:
>"Reuben Muns" <rm...@primenet.com> wrote in message
>news:go39csslqj5f04kuu...@4ax.com...
>> Derek Rupnow <de...@wsdc.nml.mot.com> wrote:
>> >From my experience living here, I know that people use it quite
>frequently
>> >(mostly men) in the past tense form はらへた or to stress it maybe,
>I also hear
>> >はらへった. I can't tell anything about colloquial or proper but
>only that it
>> >seems to be quite common.
>> I once worked in an office with several Japanese. We developed a
>> "ritual" at lunchtime which began with one of them saying "aa
>> hara heta" and continued with a discussion of where we would eat.
>> It quite often ended up with us going to the little restaurant in
>> the basement of the building, where most of us ate shogayaki.
>"はらへった hara hetta" is a colloquial expression generally used among men.
>Women's version is probably "おなかすいた onaka suita".
>The basic forms are "はらがへる hara ga heru" and "おなかがすく onaka ga
>suku", respectively.
>There is a well-known saying "腹が減っては軍ができぬ hara ga hettewa ikusa
>ga dekinu" which means that nothing can be done with an empty stomach."
That sounds like the Japanese parallel to 'An army travels on its
stomach.' From somewhere in Europe, I think.
There are many "hara+" words and some of them can be used without
particles, but not for the above case.
--
Don
The Internet proves that a million monkeys at a million keyboards couldn't
reproduce the works of Shakespeare.
iwasaki
Lei Tanabe wrote in message ...
>
>"はらへった hara hetta" is a colloquial expression generally used among
men.
>Women's version is probably "おなかすいた onaka suita".
>The basic forms are "はらがへる hara ga heru" and "おなかがすく onaka ga
>suku", respectively.
>There is a well-known saying "腹が減っては軍ができぬ hara ga hettewa ikusa
>ga dekinu" which means that nothing can be done with an empty stomach."
particles,
>but not for the above case.
"Hara peko" is an another colloquial form for "onaka ga suita".
Eric Carle's _The Very Hungry Caterpillar_ is translated into Japanese
as _Hara peko Aomushi_. My three-year-old daughter often says
"mou onaka ga pekko peko".
Nobuko Iwasaki
Don Kirkman
<lbbdcson20dgfoepe...@4ax.com>:
Sorry; for want of a '>' a citation was lost.
>It seems to me I heard somewhere that Lei Tanabe wrote in article
><EZhx4.725$t_2....@news.clear.net.nz>:
>>"Reuben Muns" <rm...@primenet.com> wrote in message
>>news:go39csslqj5f04kuu...@4ax.com...
>>> Derek Rupnow <de...@wsdc.nml.mot.com> wrote:
>>> >From my experience living here, I know that people use it quite
>>frequently
>>> >(mostly men) in the past tense form はらへた or to stress it maybe,
>>I also hear
>>> >はらへった. I can't tell anything about colloquial or proper but
>>only that it
>>> >seems to be quite common.
>>> I once worked in an office with several Japanese. We developed a
>>> "ritual" at lunchtime which began with one of them saying "aa
>>> hara heta" and continued with a discussion of where we would eat.
>>> It quite often ended up with us going to the little restaurant in
>>> the basement of the building, where most of us ate shogayaki.
>
>>"はらへった hara hetta" is a colloquial expression generally used among men.
>>Women's version is probably "おなかすいた onaka suita".
>>The basic forms are "はらがへる hara ga heru" and "おなかがすく onaka ga
>>suku", respectively.
>>There is a well-known saying "腹が減っては軍ができぬ hara ga hettewa ikusa
>>ga dekinu" which means that nothing can be done with an empty stomach."
>That sounds like the Japanese parallel to 'An army travels on its
>stomach.' From somewhere in Europe, I think.
Should be:
[Lei wrote, as noted above]
>>There are many "hara+" words and some of them can be used without
>>particles, but not for the above case.
HHM
weekly Japanese language section concerning proverbs/sayings with 'hara'
included.
_________________________________
HHM
E-Mail: sr...@yahoo.DELETETHIS.com
Hisashi FUKUI
Jim Breen wrote in message <8a1sp8$nid$1...@towncrier.cc.monash.edu.au>...
>I have just been offered "腹減る はらへる to become hungry" as a possible
>EDICT entry. It is not in any dictionary that I have in that form, just
>in the 腹が減る はらがへる form, however the henkan files *do* have
>腹減る/はらへる.
>
>Am I right in guessing that 腹減る is a colloquial form of 腹が減る?
IMHO, "haraheru" is not one word, but two. When people say "hara
hetta", it is not the past/perfect form of "haraheru", but "hara ga
hetta" with "ga" conveniently dropping off.
It is not unusual that "ga" drops off in conveｒsation, like:
俺やるよ
ore yaruyo.
この机じゃまだな
kono tsukue jama da na.
There are other expressions similar to "hara hetta":
喉かわいた
nodo kawaita.
肩凝った
kata kotta.
頭痛い
atama itai.
If "haraheru" is a possible EDICT entry, then "nodokawaku",
"katakoru" and "atamaitai" should be, too.
From the aspect of accent, you can give an even simpler explanation.
AFAIK, "hara hetta" is pronounced as LHLHH in Tokyo accent area,
which means that people conceive the phrase as two words (I count
"hetta" as one for the moment), otherwise it would be LHHLL or
LHHHH like "surihetta."
Hisashi
Lei Tanabe
> "Lei Tanabe" <l...@clear.net.nz> wrote:
>
> >"はらへった hara hetta" is a colloquial expression generally used among
men.
>
Probably he was so hungry that no strength's left to say another "t".
He even might have said "hara hera"?
IMO it requires more energy to pronounce "t, d, g, p, k" type of sounds.
Lei
s_y...@my-deja.com
Reuben Muns <rm...@primenet.com> wrote:
> "Lei Tanabe" <l...@clear.net.nz> wrote:
>
> >"はらへった hara hetta" is a colloquial expression generally used among men.
>
> My associate did not say "hara hetta", he said "hara heta".
Impossible! You were mishearing it.
--
Sho
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Gerald B Mathias
: If "haraheru" is a possible EDICT entry, then "nodokawaku",
: "katakoru" and "atamaitai" should be, too.
: From the aspect of accent, you can give an even simpler explanation.
: AFAIK, "hara hetta" is pronounced as LHLHH in Tokyo accent area,
: which means that people conceive the phrase as two words (I count
: "hetta" as one for the moment), otherwise it would be LHHLL or
: LHHHH like "surihetta."
I am under the impression (perhaps wrongly) that phrasal accent allows
"atama-ga itai" to be LHHLLLL and "hara-ga hetta" to be LHLLLL. If not,
then ignore the rest of this question, but if so, are LHHLLL and LHLLL not
possible for the "ga"-less renditions?
I vote against "haraheru" in EDICT on the grounds that hodo-ga aru.
Bart
(Let's always count "hetta" as two tango but one word.)
s_y...@my-deja.com
"Caro" <caro...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> <s_y...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8aapf0$9u6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > In article <9m1ccsc4v5bmlqp6m...@4ax.com>,
> > Reuben Muns <rm...@primenet.com> wrote:
> > > "Lei Tanabe" <l...@clear.net.nz> wrote:
> > >
> > > >"はらへった hara hetta" is a colloquial expression generally used among men.
> > >
> > > My associate did not say "hara hetta", he said "hara heta".
> >
> > Impossible! You were mishearing it.
> >
That's "hara hettaa." We're talking about what corresponds to the "small tsu"
in writing, right?
"Heta" , as you may well know, means "not good/skilful", or more precisely
with a conseration on the similarity of the pitch pattern, the "calyx" of a
fruit. It's simply not possible for us to confuse "hetta" with these.
If advanced learners like Reuben or you cannot hear the difference, the
sokuon must indeed be a difficult feature to master. But it makes a
phonological difference, so there is a need for you to concentrate on this,
it seems.
Caro
<s_y...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8aapf0$9u6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <9m1ccsc4v5bmlqp6m...@4ax.com>,
> Reuben Muns <rm...@primenet.com> wrote:
> > "Lei Tanabe" <l...@clear.net.nz> wrote:
> >
> > >"はらへった hara hetta" is a colloquial expression generally used among men.
> >
> > My associate did not say "hara hetta", he said "hara heta".
>
> Impossible! You were mishearing it.
>
I know a man who says "hara hetaa." when he is very hungry.
Caro
Caro
<s_y...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8abj05$tku$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> in writing, right?
>
"hara heta hara heta" ludicrously.
And I'm actually a native Japanese and living in Japan for 42 years.
It's never mishearing.
Caro
Hisashi FUKUI
Gerald B Mathias wrote in message <8abcnn$lnm$1...@news.hawaii.edu>...
>Hisashi FUKUI <hfu...@pop06.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
>
>: If "haraheru" is a possible EDICT entry, then "nodokawaku",
>: "katakoru" and "atamaitai" should be, too.
>
>: From the aspect of accent, you can give an even simpler explanation.
>: AFAIK, "hara hetta" is pronounced as LHLHH in Tokyo accent area,
>: which means that people conceive the phrase as two words (I count
>: "hetta" as one for the moment), otherwise it would be LHHLL or
>: LHHHH like "surihetta."
>
>I am under the impression (perhaps wrongly) that phrasal accent allows
>"atama-ga itai" to be LHHLLLL and "hara-ga hetta" to be LHLLLL. If not,
>then ignore the rest of this question, but if so, are LHHLLL and LHLLL not
>possible for the "ga"-less renditions?
Yes, you are right. I committed a native speaker's error again.
So, one cannot dismiss the possibility that a compound word "haraheru"
LHLL exists just judging from the accent, though I don't take it seriously
because "hara hetta" seems to be the only usage of the word for now.
>I vote against "haraheru" in EDICT on the grounds that hodo-ga aru.
I agree with you.
>(Let's always count "hetta" as two tango but one word.)
Yes, let's. Thank you.
Hisashi
Reuben Muns
>> My associate did not say "hara hetta", he said "hara heta".
>
>Impossible! You were mishearing it.
Or maybe he was mis-saying it??
When I left Japan after that period of working there, my
associates gave me a flag similar to that given to departing
Japanese troops during WWII. On it were autographs of my
associates plus a "stick-man" group of figures quoting the usual
lunch-time dialog. This dialog is written mostly in kana and the
quote from Mr. Sugaya was definitely "hara heta".
Reuben
Reuben Muns
>"Heta" , as you may well know, means "not good/skilful", or more precisely
>with a conseration on the similarity of the pitch pattern, the "calyx" of a
>fruit. It's simply not possible for us to confuse "hetta" with these.
Maybe you're perfect and can't confuse them. I personally can
confuse LOTS of things. I suspect Sugaya-san could confuse a
couple of things, too.
Reuben
Reuben Muns
>No, no, I mean はらへたー！, it's a ludicrous expression. He also says
>"hara heta hara heta" ludicrously.
>
>And I'm actually a native Japanese and living in Japan for 42 years.
>It's never mishearing.
Ditto Mr. Sugaya, whom I quoted as saying "aa hara heta". He is
native Japanese and was about 35 or so years old at the time.
Reuben
s_y...@my-deja.com
"Caro" <caro...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> <s_y...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8abj05$tku$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > In article <8ab9g6$rj1$1...@news01.osaka.sannet.ne.jp>,
> > "Caro" <caro...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > <s_y...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8aapf0$9u6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > > > In article <9m1ccsc4v5bmlqp6m...@4ax.com>,
> > > > Reuben Muns <rm...@primenet.com> wrote:
> > > > > "Lei Tanabe" <l...@clear.net.nz> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >"はらへった hara hetta" is a colloquial expression generally used among men.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Impossible! You were mishearing it.
> > > >
> >
> > That's "hara hettaa." We're talking about what corresponds to the "small tsu"
> > in writing, right?
> >
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�
> It's never mishearing.
>
> Caro
Ottotto...to. Sigh. Your handle name and some of the outrageous
raw data you have been presenting to the group had led me to
believe that you were a non-native speaker. Besides, you English
never seems to go out of hand the way mine does quite often, and
I had wrongly assumed you to be someone of high caliber trying to
formulate a "revolutionary" grammar of the language, with perhaps
the first language background of something other than English OR
Japanese. I don't mean to blame you for my own misunderstanding,
but...
The fact that you are a native Japanese makes me wonder all the
more why you wanted to bring this up in your previous post. Sure,
anyone has the right to mangle their own language in any way they
like, but unless your friend is linguistically retarded or something,
he knows he's doing it for fun. I don't worry about what kind of
language you guys communicate in on everyday basis, but this is
a forum a considerable number of people with a genuine interest to
learn the language visit. I must say you only did disservice to those
people by introducing something totally unworthy of attention.
And just see how Reuben is reacting to me!
Reuben Muns
>And just see how Reuben is reacting to me!
Same way I react to anyone who pompously states that he is the
absolute authority, and that anyone who differs from him is by
definition wrong.
Reuben
s_y...@my-deja.com
I've never stated that I am the absolute authority, and I've always
asked other native speakers to join in the discussion whenever I'm
in doubt even minutely. I also take pride in being fairly quick to
admit my own fault and I honestly do not believe I am an authority
on anything at all, which I've made clear repeately.
However, being a native speaker of the language, interested in the
decent people who are learning it, there are certain things that I
don't even have to ask around about to arrive at my conclusion.
I was going to settle the matter with Caro first, and then going to
talk with you over your cases with full considerations on what
might have been the case, but I for now I don't feel like doing so.
It may not have been proper to cite your name like that as you
quote me above, but that was intended toward Caro, who have
been throwing in a series of misleading examples and irrational
statements. I have no doubt in my mind that you'll pretty soon
find out you've made a unfounded slur against me. Just stay
cool and watch. In the meantime, I won't reply to you because
I don't want to.
s_y...@my-deja.com
"Caro" <caro...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> <s_y...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8afmt1$mhi$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> >
> > The fact that you are a native Japanese makes me wonder all the
> > more why you wanted to bring this up in your previous post.
>
> another possibility. I don't wonder at all that there is a man who says
> "aa hara heta."
A "man" or two in well over a hundred million. Sure, I now know your friend
does. True, I was not there when Caro heard his friend say it, and I would
have apologized for that if he had acted differently.
I don't see you replying to the essence of my message, though.
s_y...@my-deja.com
Sean Holland
> s_y...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >And just see how Reuben is reacting to me!
>
> Same way I react to anyone who pompously states that he is the
> absolute authority, and that anyone who differs from him is by
> definition wrong.
Funny how pompous this sounds, ain't it?
Reuben Muns
>In article <l16ncsg4gvi1bt6n8...@4ax.com>,
> Reuben Muns <rm...@primenet.com> wrote:
>> s_y...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>> >And just see how Reuben is reacting to me!
>>
>> Same way I react to anyone who pompously states that he is the
>> absolute authority, and that anyone who differs from him is by
>> definition wrong.
>
>I've never stated that I am the absolute authority, and I've always
>asked other native speakers to join in the discussion whenever I'm
>in doubt even minutely. I also take pride in being fairly quick to
>admit my own fault and I honestly do not believe I am an authority
>on anything at all, which I've made clear repeately.
>
>However, being a native speaker of the language, interested in the
>decent people who are learning it, there are certain things that I
>don't even have to ask around about to arrive at my conclusion.
>
>I was going to settle the matter with Caro first, and then going to
>talk with you over your cases with full considerations on what
>might have been the case, but I for now I don't feel like doing so.
>It may not have been proper to cite your name like that as you
>quote me above, but that was intended toward Caro, who have
>been throwing in a series of misleading examples and irrational
>statements. I have no doubt in my mind that you'll pretty soon
>find out you've made a unfounded slur against me. Just stay
>cool and watch. In the meantime, I won't reply to you because
>I don't want to.
Folks, I think we may have a replacement for Ben. And this one
seems to be a native.
Reuben
Reuben Muns
>I don't see you replying to the essence of my message, though.
I think the essence of your message was: "Never mind that your
friend Mr. Sugaya is a native Japanese. He is no good because he
doesn't speak Japanese the way *I* say it should be spoken."
That sort of arrogance is extremely rare among the Japanese.
Reuben
Reuben Muns
>Maybe someone might have said "hara heta."
>But as a Japanese native speaker, you should know it's not a correct
>Japanese.
Are you implying that all Japanese *must* speak "book Japanese"?
Reuben
Reuben Muns
>Do you accept "ita" for "itta (went)"?
Sure, if I can tell from the context that "itta" was intended.
Why not?
Reuben
Reuben Muns
>Or might have intended the expression as a joke.
I strongly suspect that this was the case.
Reuben
Caro
<s_y...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8afmt1$mhi$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> The fact that you are a native Japanese makes me wonder all the
> more why you wanted to bring this up in your previous post.
As you dogmatically said Reuben had been mishearing, I wanted to hint
another possibility. I don't wonder at all that there is a man who says
"aa hara heta."
Caro
Lei Tanabe
"Caro" <caro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8agh93$5a9$1...@news01.osaka.sannet.ne.jp...
Maybe someone might have said "hara heta."
But as a Japanese native speaker, you should know it's not a correct
Japanese.
It's a different matter from omitting "ga" in "hara ga hetta" which isn't
wrong as a colloquial saying.
"hetta" is the euphonically changed form of "herita" and can't omit extra
"t" here.
Do you accept "ita" for "itta (went)"?
Lei
Lei Tanabe
> s_y...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >And just see how Reuben is reacting to me!
>
> Same way I react to anyone who pompously states that he is the
> absolute authority, and that anyone who differs from him is by
> definition wrong.
Didn't you read my comment to you explaning my view about this matter?
Seriously if your associate really said so, he was either lazy or too hungry
to pronounce the word properly.
Or might have intended the expression as a joke.
If I feel someone's statement is wrong, I'd say wrong.
What's wrong with it?
Lei
Jim Breen
>>I vote against "haraheru" in EDICT on the grounds that hodo-ga aru.
OK, I'm convinced that it would be inappropriate to have
腹減る/はらへる, but am I right in also concluding that 腹減た as a
colloquialism is useful? (I don't know what to make of the
へた/へった "debate")
--
Jim Breen [j.b...@csse.monash.edu.au http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/]
Computer Science & Software Engineering, Tel: +61 3 9905 3298
Monash University, Fax: +61 3 9905 3574
Clayton VIC 3168, Australia ジム・ブリーン@モナシュ大学
muchan
Gerald B Mathias wrote:
>
> Hisashi FUKUI <hfu...@pop06.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
>
> : If "haraheru" is a possible EDICT entry, then "nodokawaku",
> : "katakoru" and "atamaitai" should be, too.
>
> : From the aspect of accent, you can give an even simpler explanation.
> : AFAIK, "hara hetta" is pronounced as LHLHH in Tokyo accent area,
> : which means that people conceive the phrase as two words (I count
> : "hetta" as one for the moment), otherwise it would be LHHLL or
> : LHHHH like "surihetta."
>
> I am under the impression (perhaps wrongly) that phrasal accent allows
> "atama-ga itai" to be LHHLLLL and "hara-ga hetta" to be LHLLLL. If not,
> then ignore the rest of this question, but if so, are LHHLLL and LHLLL not
> possible for the "ga"-less renditions?
>
> I vote against "haraheru" in EDICT on the grounds that hodo-ga aru.
>
> Bart
>
> (Let's always count "hetta" as two tango but one word.)
I definitely count "hara heru" as two word and it's "LH LH", as well as
"atama-ga itai" LHH-L LHL. Sorry to Sean to cause his headache.
muchan
Caro
Lei Tanabe <l...@clear.net.nz> wrote in message news:bITy4.231$wG2....@news.clear.net.nz...
might be a kind of dialect. If so, it's a part of Japanese.
Caro
muchan
>
> 腹減る/はらへる, but am I right in also concluding that 腹減た as a
> colloquialism is useful? (I don't know what to make of the
> へた/へった "debate")
>
If you'd put every expression where stikkers like -ga, -o are dropped,
as in the case of "naha kanda", then "hara hetta" would be in the same
dictionary... as for EDICT, I don't think "hara hetta" should be there.
-- may be good to add for the entry of verb "her.u", an additional
explanation that "hara-ga heru" means "being hungry".
muchan
nishikawa
"muchan" <muc...@promikra.si> wrote in message
news:38CCDCAC...@promikra.si...
>
>
> Gerald B Mathias wrote:
> >
> > Hisashi FUKUI <hfu...@pop06.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
> >
> > : If "haraheru" is a possible EDICT entry, then "nodokawaku",
> > : "katakoru" and "atamaitai" should be, too.
> >
> > : From the aspect of accent, you can give an even simpler explanation.
> > : AFAIK, "hara hetta" is pronounced as LHLHH in Tokyo accent area,
> > : which means that people conceive the phrase as two words (I count
> > : "hetta" as one for the moment), otherwise it would be LHHLL or
> > : LHHHH like "surihetta."
> >
> > I am under the impression (perhaps wrongly) that phrasal accent allows
> > "atama-ga itai" to be LHHLLLL and "hara-ga hetta" to be LHLLLL. If not,
> > then ignore the rest of this question, but if so, are LHHLLL and LHLLL
not
> > possible for the "ga"-less renditions?
> >
> >
> >
> > (Let's always count "hetta" as two tango but one word.)
>
> I definitely count "hara heru" as two word and it's "LH LH", as well as
> "atama-ga itai" LHH-L LHL. Sorry to Sean to cause his headache.
>
> muchan
Yes it has definitely two words. BTW what is LH LH or LHH-L LHL. I havn't
needed it in understanding Japanese.
M. Nishikawa
Kevelaer
Germany
http://home.t-online.de/home/nishikawa/
ドイツ教育事情－ドイツ語のバイリンガルを目指せ！
Lei Tanabe
"Jim Breen" <j...@nexus.csse.monash.edu.au> wrote in message
news:8ahr2c$bqu$2...@towncrier.cc.monash.edu.au...
>
> 腹減る/はらへる, but am I right in also concluding that 腹減た as a
> colloquialism is useful? (I don't know what to make of the
> へた/へった "debate")
It should be 腹 減った which is merely a past tense of 腹 減る.
If you think it's appropriate to add this word in EDICT, how's 腹 立った, 喉
渇いた, etc?
IMO these words should be listed with their basic forms like 腹が減る, 腹が
立つ, 喉が渇く, etc.
減る is 5-dan-katsuyo verb:
mizen 減ら-ない
ren'yo 減り-ます、減って（減りて）、減った（減りた）
shushi 減る
rentai 減る-とき
katei 減れ-ば
meirei 減れ-よ
Lei
Gerald B Mathias
: s_y...@my-deja.com wrote:
:>I don't see you replying to the essence of my message, though.
: I think the essence of your message was: "Never mind that your
: friend Mr. Sugaya is a native Japanese. He is no good because he
: doesn't speak Japanese the way *I* say it should be spoken."
I took the essence of Sho's message to be "You must have misheard, because
'hara heta' doesn't make sense as Japanese." In other words, he was
assuming that Mr. Sugaya *was* speaking perfectly good Japanese.
My cousin used to like "weenies" for Breakfast. They came out of a
Wheaties box. If a learner of Japanese who knew my cousin stated that a
native speaker of English called Wheaties "weenies" and I didn't think he
had ever met my cousin, I would assume he had misheard. And I would tell
him that the pronunciation was definitely wrong.
There's such a thing as being to amai.
Bart
Sean Holland
> Yes it has definitely two words. BTW what is LH LH or LHH-L LHL. I havn't
> needed it in understanding Japanese.
Nor have I. But it seems to be fun for some of the participants and they have a
perfect right to pursue their interest in HL LLHLLLH HL. As I have the perfect
right to roll my eyes, sigh, and click on the next post.
Lei Tanabe
> "Lei Tanabe" <l...@clear.net.nz> wrote:
>
> >Maybe someone might have said "hara heta."
> >But as a Japanese native speaker, you should know it's not a correct
> >Japanese.
>
No, I simply thought Caro knew the basic grammar like this as a native
speaker who is participating in this kind of debate and he had no use for
insisting there's someone who says "heta" with no explanations as if it's
correct.
I'm quite flexible. Actually I like a sort of personalized/creative version
of ungrammatical phrases.
No problem for me if someone says "hara hera" or whatever to emphasize his
feelings jokingly.
However, that doesn't make incorrect speech correct, unstandard Japanese
standard.
Once I heard Mick Jagger said "gooder" and thought the word expressed what
he meant effectively, better than "better".
Lei
Hisashi FUKUI
nishikawa wrote in message <8ajj2p$ol$1...@news00.btx.dtag.de>...
>> "atama-ga itai" LHH-L LHL. Sorry to Sean to cause his headache.
>Yes it has definitely two words. BTW what is LH LH or LHH-L LHL. I havn't
>needed it in understanding Japanese.
Ask some Japanese to read out either 犬を飼う or 犬を買う, and
not to tell you beforehand which phrase she/he will read. After
you heard the phrase, try to guess which phrase was read. You
will be able to guess 100% correctly if the speaker's pronunciation
is clear enough. But why?
Because you recognize unconsciously the *accent* of "kau", i.e.
which is higher in pitch, "ka" or "u." If "ka" is higher, then the
word is 飼う. If "u" is higher, then 買う.
Are you still unaware of your splendid ability?
Hisashi
Jim Breen
>>"Jim Breen" <j...@nexus.csse.monash.edu.au> wrote in message
>>news:8ahr2c$bqu$2...@towncrier.cc.monash.edu.au...
>>> Gerald B Mathias <mat...@uhunix3.its.hawaii.edu> wrote:
>>> >>I vote against "haraheru" in EDICT on the grounds that hodo-ga aru.
>>> OK, I'm convinced that it would be inappropriate to have
>>> 腹減る/はらへる, but am I right in also concluding that 腹減た as a
>>> colloquialism is useful? (I don't know what to make of the
>>> へた/へった "debate")
>>It should be 腹 減った which is merely a past tense of 腹 減る.
I agree, but since it has been debated by some, I wondered if the
colloquial form corrupted the normal inflection.
>>If you think it's appropriate to add this word in EDICT, how's 腹 立った, 喉
>>渇いた, etc?
Here I need advice (IANANS). 腹減った has been suggested, and the
others have not (until now). Are they (as) common?
>>IMO these words should be listed with their basic forms like 腹が減る, 腹が
>>立つ, 喉が渇く, etc.
I agree in principle, and all of them are listed in their full forms. The
trouble with dictionaries, particularly those that are intended to be useful,
is that derivative forms are sometimes appropriate. Had the consensus been
that 腹減る was a valid word, I'd have built it into the 腹が減る
entry as a variant, but I think I'll have to have 腹減った as a
free-standing entry, cross-referenced to 腹が減る.
Caro
<s_y...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8agup6$g1g$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> I don't see you replying to the essence of my message, though.
>
so poor that your English is a bit beyond my reading ability. So I've
been afraid of my misreading. But to me, your message seems simply
slander.
Yeah, I admit I was not perfect, but I don't think I did disservice to
this NG at all. I'm very disappointed with arrogant attitude of you
some of native speakers in this NG. Maybe you were angered to
know I'm actually a native. Maybe I should have said so earlier.
But I didn't want to make my posts authorized as you possibly did.
As you said I was mishearing, I could not help telling you I'm a native
against my will. It was just for proving not mishearing but for making
my posts authorized. If you really think I did disservice to this NG,
I think it's just omoiagari of native speakers.
Nobody think native speakers are perfect. Who in the world would
think "hara heta" is a correct Japanese?
Caro
s_y...@my-deja.com
I think I understand your English perfectly well, but I don't understand
at all the logic with which you criticize me. It might simply be because
I'm so "omoiagatteru" and "arrogant" all over, but honestly, I cannot
understand you.
I'm very sorry that I'm probably sounding "slanderous" to you again,
but I don't think you and I will be communicating successfully with each
other any time soon.
Although I cannot see your points and therefore cannot admit my own
faults to you or to the rest of the people on this group, I will respect your
right to post and say whatever you want to. Until the day comes when
I find it worthwhile to talk with you, I will never, ever make the same error
of following up to any of your messages. Here's my sincere hope that
you'll leave me alone too.
Thank you,
Gerald B Mathias
: 減る is 5-dan-katsuyo verb:
: mizen 減ら-ない
: ren'yo 減り-ます、減って（減りて）、減った（減りた）
: shushi 減る
: rentai 減る-とき
: katei 減れ-ば
: meirei 減れ-よ
But that last "-yo" is not part of the 5-dan meereekee.
"Hara-yo! Here!"
Bart
Annie
And,
hero-u 減ろ-う
Hara ga _herou_ ga nodo ga kawakou ga sonna koto kankei nai yo.
--
Annie
mailto:ann...@gol.com
Annie
Annie wrote in <38d04244.1436%ann...@gol.com> on Thu, 16 Mar 2000
04:39:16 GMT:
>And,
>
>hero-u 減ろ-う
>
>Hara ga _herou_ ga nodo ga kawakou ga sonna koto kankei nai yo.
>
>
It's mizen-kei.
--
Annie
mailto:ann...@gol.com
Lei Tanabe
"Gerald B Mathias" <mat...@uhunix3.its.hawaii.edu> wrote in message
news:8aoh3q$81b$2...@news.hawaii.edu...
> Lei Tanabe <l...@clear.net.nz> wrote:
>
> : meirei 減れ-よ
>
> But that last "-yo" is not part of the 5-dan meereekee.
>
> "Hara-yo! Here!"
Here, here!
Hear Bart commanding his hara!
Lei
nishikawa
"nishikawa" <nish...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:8ajj2p$ol$1...@news00.btx.dtag.de...
> > >
> > > Hisashi FUKUI <hfu...@pop06.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
> > >
> > > : If "haraheru" is a possible EDICT entry, then "nodokawaku",
> > > : "katakoru" and "atamaitai" should be, too.
> > >
> > > : From the aspect of accent, you can give an even simpler explanation.
> > > : AFAIK, "hara hetta" is pronounced as LHLHH in Tokyo accent area,
> > > : which means that people conceive the phrase as two words (I count
> > > : "hetta" as one for the moment), otherwise it would be LHHLL or
> > > : LHHHH like "surihetta."
> > >
> > > I am under the impression (perhaps wrongly) that phrasal accent allows
> > > "atama-ga itai" to be LHHLLLL and "hara-ga hetta" to be LHLLLL. If
not,
> > > then ignore the rest of this question, but if so, are LHHLLL and LHLLL
> not
> > > possible for the "ga"-less renditions?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > (Let's always count "hetta" as two tango but one word.)
> >
> > "atama-ga itai" LHH-L LHL. Sorry to Sean to cause his headache.
> >
>
> Yes it has definitely two words. BTW what is LH LH or LHH-L LHL. I havn't
> needed it in understanding Japanese.
Sorry for the long space after the signature.
BTW I've noticed that muchan uses "muchan" むちゃん. Should I pronounce it
むっちゃん "mucchan" or "mutchan" Does this case correspond to the fircely
debated pronunciation of "heta".
Gerald B Mathias
:>Lei Tanabe <l...@clear.net.nz> wrote:
:>
:>: 減る is 5-dan-katsuyo verb:
:>: mizen 減ら-ない
:>: ren'yo 減り-ます、減って（減りて）、減った（減りた）
:>: shushi 減る
:>: rentai 減る-とき
:>: katei 減れ-ば
:>: meirei 減れ-よ
: And,
: hero-u 減ろ-う
: Hara ga _herou_ ga nodo ga kawakou ga sonna koto kankei nai yo.
I bet you meant to point out that that is (iwaba) the "godan-me" of
"her.u" and is the alternate mizenkee.
Bart
muchan
nishikawa wrote:
>
>
> Sorry for the long space after the signature.
> BTW I've noticed that muchan uses "muchan" むちゃん. Should I pronounce it
> むっちゃん "mucchan" or "mutchan" Does this case correspond to the fircely
> debated pronunciation of "heta".
>
> M. Nishikawa
"muchan" is pronounced as /muuchan/.
it's hepburn minus '^'. I used it for my Unix account.
muchan
Lei Tanabe
>
> I agree in principle, and all of them are listed in their full forms. The
> trouble with dictionaries, particularly those that are intended to be
useful,
> is that derivative forms are sometimes appropriate. Had the consensus been
> that 腹減る was a valid word, I'd have built it into the 腹が減る
> entry as a variant, but I think I'll have to have 腹減った as a
> free-standing entry, cross-referenced to 腹が減る.
腹減った is a frequently used expression, but then every so often we have
this 'empty-stomach feelings'.
I think it's too much to list 腹減った as a vocabulary entry.
Probably just as an example sentence under "hara" - 腹が減る ?
Lei
Jed Rothwell
> No, no, I mean はらへたー！, it's a ludicrous expression. He also says
> "hara heta hara heta" ludicrously.
Ah, it's a joke, like "naruheso" (naruhodo).
- Jed