"Leaving" in Japanese
Ray Steiner
In a recent exercise from my textbook I had to
translate "Smith left Tokyo on the 8-o'clock Shinkansen".
I rendered it
Smissanwa 8-ji shinkansende Tokyo-o dekakemashita.
The answer in the book used demashita instead of dekakemashita.
Then I also thought of tachimashita.
Of these 3 verbs, which is the most correct here and why?
By the way, thanks to all who replied to my last post!
Yoroshiku onegai shimasu!
Ray Steiner
Mike Rosenlof
In article <steiner-0507...@steiner.bgsu.edu>,
ste...@math.bgsu.edu (Ray Steiner) wrote:
My Shueisha Kokugo Jiten defines 'dekakeru' as 1) soto he deru. gaishutsu
suru 2) soto he deyou to suru.
So it sounds like you could say 'ie wo dekakeru' or 'biiru wo dekakeru'
but not 'Tokyo wo dekakeru'.
Now I thought how abou;'Tokyo kara shuppatsu suru'. So I looked up
'shuppatsu' and the definition is 'mokuteki chi ni mukete dekakeru koto'.
This kind of muddles the picture for me...
Tatsu? The kanji is 'shuppatsu' no 'hatsu'. Definition no. 9 under tatsu
is 'soko wo hanareru' or 'dokoka he dekakeru' or 'shuppatsu suru'.
I think it comes down to a similar situation to translating to English the
phrase 'Tokyo wo shuppatsu shita'. Do you make it 'left tokyo' or
'departed Tokyo'? Both are really correct aren't they?
-----
Mike Rosenlof rose...@qualcomm.com
Qualcomm, Boulder, Colorado (303)473-6798
mdchachi
mros...@qualcomm.com (Mike Rosenlof) writes:
>My Shueisha Kokugo Jiten defines 'dekakeru' as 1) soto he deru. gaishutsu
>suru 2) soto he deyou to suru.
>So it sounds like you could say 'ie wo dekakeru' or 'biiru wo dekakeru'
>but not 'Tokyo wo dekakeru'.
Watch your romaji! It's not so easy to dekakeru from a "beer" as it
is from a building. ;)
Mike
--
C ^ ^ D _ mdch...@oakland.edu mdch...@ml.com
^0 0^ __
( v ) Woof.
U (or is it Moo?)
H.L. van Kooten
mros...@qualcomm.com (Mike Rosenlof) wrote:
>In article <steiner-0507...@steiner.bgsu.edu>,
>ste...@math.bgsu.edu (Ray Steiner) wrote:
>> In a recent exercise from my textbook I had to
>> translate "Smith left Tokyo on the 8-o'clock Shinkansen".
>> I rendered it
>> Smissanwa 8-ji shinkansende Tokyo-o dekakemashita.
>> The answer in the book used demashita instead of dekakemashita.
>> Then I also thought of tachimashita.
>> Of these 3 verbs, which is the most correct here and why?
>> By the way, thanks to all who replied to my last post!
>> Yoroshiku onegai shimasu!
>> Ray Steiner
The EJ Kenkyuusha gives a few very interesting translations for 'to
leave':
<Basho wo>
Hanareru, saru, tatsu, ...kara shuppatsu suru: ~ one's house, country
etc.
Leave one's hometown and live in the city
Kokyou wo dete tokai de kurasu
Leave home for school at eight
Hachi-ji ni ie wo dete gakkou he iku
Leave here tomorrow
Ashita koko wo shuppatsu shimasu
The train left London for Paris
Ressha wa Pari ni mukatte Rondon wo deta
Leave the track
Dassen suru
The last one (dassen suru) is not the one we're looking for. In almost
all the examples 'deru' is used, so it seems like 'deru' is the most
common translation.
I had a look at the other Kenkyuusha (JE) to see how all the words
were used:
DEKAKERU means:
1. GAISHUTSU SURU - Go out, take an outing, hit the road
2. SHUTSURITSU SURU - Start off, start out, set off, set out, take
off, take out, strike out
3. DEYOU TO SURU - Be about to go out, be going out, be on the point
of going out
One of the examples mentions: Oosaka he dekakeru, but nothing is
mentioned about Oosaka wo dekakeru. It seems like in your case,
dekakeru cannot be used. (I have to admit I never heard somebody say
[city] wo dekakeru either. Ie wo dekakeru seems to be more common. My
Japanese wife even says [city] wo dekakeru is just impossible).
TATSU means:
1. SHUPPATSU SURU - Start, LEAVE, depart, set out, set off, set forth,
set forward
2. HANARERU - Go off to
One example says: Nihon wo tatsu (leave Japan). It seems like 'tatsu'
is ok, though I don't hear Japanese use it very often.
SHUPPATSU SURU means:
1. Start from, depart from, take one's departure from, LEAVE, set out
from, shove off, hop off, take off
One example says: Koko wo shuppatsu suru (Start from here). So,
shuppatsu suru is ok. Note that instead of WO you can also use KARA
(in other words, SHUPPATSU SURU is transitive).
DERU means:
(17)
1. SHUPPATSU SURU - Start from, LEAVE, depart from, take off, pull out
2. SHUPPAN SURU - Set sail, sail out, clear port
We already found out in the EJ that DERU is ok. By the way, did you
know the word SHUPPAN SURU? I saw it for the very first time 8-).
SARU means:
1. HANARERU - Leave, depart from, take leave of, take one's departure,
go away, go off, move away, get away, take oneself away, take oneself
off, quit.
One example says: Kuni wo saru (Leave one's country), so it seems like
you can use it, but to be honest: SARU sounds a little bit 'katai'
(literary) to me.
HANARERU means:
1. ... WO SARU - Leave, quit, depart, go away from, veer away from, be
clear of
One example says: Ressha ga eki wo hanareru (The train leaves the
station), so you can use HANARERU too.
SARU is used quite often in a sad way (note: yo wo saru - pass away,
depart from this life). It seems to me that if you use SARU there is a
nuance that says you'll never come back, but I'm not sure about this.
HANARERU implies a growing distance (note: HANARERU is written with
the RI from KYORI (distance).
So, I think we can conclude the following:
... WO DERU Common, literal
... WO SHUPPATSU SURU Common, literal
... KARA SHUPPATSU SURU Common, less literal
... WO TATSU Less common, literal
... WO SARU Less common, literal (implies some sadness)
... WO HANARERU Common, less literal (implies a growing
distance)
So, there they are, six translations for 'to leave'. Hope you will use
them.
Loek.
-I am not a native speaker of English, neither am I in
charge of the English translations at our agency-
Akebono Translation Service
E-mail: loek.va...@tip.nl
Homepage: http://www.tip.nl/users/loek.van.kooten
Y. Okita
In article <mrosenlof-050...@rosenlof-ppp.qualcomm.com>,
mros...@qualcomm.com (Mike Rosenlof) wrote:
>
> My Shueisha Kokugo Jiten defines 'dekakeru' as 1) soto he deru.
gaishutsu
> suru 2) soto he deyou to suru.
>
> So it sounds like you could say 'ie wo dekakeru' or 'biiru wo dekakeru'
> but not 'Tokyo wo dekakeru'.
XXX e/ni dekakeru <-- XXX should be destination
Osaka e/ni dekakeru.
"Dekakeru" does not take "o"(wo).
"Smith left Tokyo on the 8-o'clock Shinkansen" should be
"Smissanwa 8-ji shinkansende Tokyo-o demashita."
Yoko Okita
University of Hawaii
Jeffrey Friedl
Ray Steiner wrote:
> translate "Smith left Tokyo on the 8-o'clock Shinkansen".
> I rendered it
> Smissanwa 8-ji shinkansende Tokyo-o dekakemashita.
One lessson I was lucky enough to be taught early on is that when
speaking Japanese, speak >Japanese<. "Tokyo" is not Japanese.
"toukyou" is (well, is romaji for Japanese). Just the other day I
was listening to a guy on the radio whose fluency was much better
than mine, but he sounded dorky because his gairaigo and foreign
place names were English in the middle of his Japanese, not Japanese.
in the middle of his Japanese.
When speaking Japanese, I even mangle (i.e. Japanize) names, my own
included. If the goal is to be understood by Japanese in Japan, speaking
pure Japanese is the best bet.
Listen to a Japanese person say "Singapore", "Los Angeles", "California",
"Paris", "Steiner", etc., and then try to mimic faithfully.
> The answer in the book used demashita instead of dekakemashita.
dekakeru has the feeling of being out for a moment, i.e. "Mr Smith is out
of the office momentarily". I suppose if you were a rich jet-set
type, you might shinkansen to Kyoto for a quick lunch, or Geneva for a
quick evening snack.
BTW, what did your answer book say about "8-ji"?
The English was specific that it was the 8:00 shinkansen, so
I'd (perhaps in error) say "hachiji no shinkansen" or
"hachiji shuppatsu shinkansen".
Jeffrey
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey Friedl <jfr...@omron.co.jp> Omron Corp, Nagaokakyo, Kyoto 617 Japan
See my Jap<->Eng dictionary at http://www.wg.omron.co.jp/cgi-bin/j-e
or at mirrors at [enterprise.ic.gc.ca] and [www.itc.omron.com]
Hiroto Hara
Y. Okita (yok...@hawaii.edu) wrote:
: XXX e/ni dekakeru <-- XXX should be destination
: Osaka e/ni dekakeru.
: "Dekakeru" does not take "o"(wo).
: "Smith left Tokyo on the 8-o'clock Shinkansen" should be
: "Smissanwa 8-ji shinkansende Tokyo-o demashita."
I believe "Sumisu-san ha 8-ji _NO_ shinkansen de Tokyo wo tachimashita (or
demashita)" should be more appropriate.
Hiroto Hara
University of Pennsylvania
School of Medicine
Shinji Kai
I>In a recent exercise from my textbook I had to
>translate "Smith left Tokyo on the 8-o'clock Shinkansen".
>I rendered it
>Smissanwa 8-ji shinkansende Tokyo-o dekakemashita.
>Of these 3 verbs, which is the most correct here and why?
I usually say as follows,
Smith san wa 8-ji no shinkansen de Tokyo-o tachimashita.
Of course you can use "demashita" instead of tachimashita.
But "dekakemashita" is not correct. "dekakemashita" is used "*** ni
dekakemashita", *** is destination.
Smith san wa 8-ji no shinkansen de Tokyo-ni dekakemashita.
--
-----------------------------
Shin ,sk...@hatelecom.or.jp
-----------------------------
Reuben Muns
Jeffrey Friedl <jfr...@omron.co.jp> wrote:
>When speaking Japanese, I even mangle (i.e. Japanize) names, my own
>included. If the goal is to be understood by Japanese in Japan, speaking
>pure Japanese is the best bet.
Reminds me of an event in Osaka, somewhere around 1964. There
were two Japanese, myself, and another American who was a
newcomer to Japan. We went to lunch in a confectionary type
place. I forget the name, but it's the one that has the two cute
kids as trademarks. Anyway, the two Japanese and I all ordered
"hamu sando, chokoretto mirukuseki". The other American then
said, "I'll also have a ham sandwich and chocolate milkshake."
Whereupon the waitress looked at the two Japanese and said
"Naani?"
Reuben
David Luke
In article <31E10956...@omron.co.jp>, Jeffrey Friedl <jfr...@omron.co.jp> writes:
|> Ray Steiner wrote:
|> > translate "Smith left Tokyo on the 8-o'clock Shinkansen".
|> > I rendered it
|> > Smissanwa 8-ji shinkansende Tokyo-o dekakemashita.
|>
|> One lessson I was lucky enough to be taught early on is that when
|> speaking Japanese, speak >Japanese<. "Tokyo" is not Japanese.
|> "toukyou" is (well, is romaji for Japanese). Just the other day I
|> was listening to a guy on the radio whose fluency was much better
|> than mine, but he sounded dorky because his gairaigo and foreign
|> place names were English in the middle of his Japanese, not Japanese.
|> in the middle of his Japanese.
Very good point. This is one thing that is very irritating to listen to,
but sometimes very hard to do!
|> Listen to a Japanese person say "Singapore", "Los Angeles", "California",
|> "Paris", "Steiner", etc., and then try to mimic faithfully.
Just last night I spent several minutes practicing "Los Angeles". You'd
think it would be "rosu anjeresu", but it's not -- it's "rosanzerusu".
That's hard for me to say.
|> BTW, what did your answer book say about "8-ji"?
|> The English was specific that it was the 8:00 shinkansen, so
|> I'd (perhaps in error) say "hachiji no shinkansen" or
|> "hachiji shuppatsu shinkansen".
The announcements at the eki always use "-hatsu"; since the Shinkansen leaves
frequently and punctially, you wouldn't say 8:00 unless it was exactly 8:00
(not 8:01 or 7:59), so the proper way to say it would be "haji-ji rei-fun-hatsu
no shinkansen (de Toukyou wo shuppatsu shimashita)".
As for the "leaving", it depends on what you mean exactly. "Shuppatsu shita"
feels like "departed from" to me; "deru" also has the feeling of emphasizing
the physical separation from the point of departure. I'm not expressing this
very well, but those words seem to focus on the actual fact of getting on
the Shinkansen and having it pull away from the platform, whereas something
like "Tokyo wo satta" seems to put more emphasis on leaving Tokyo (perhaps for
a long time), with the means of leaving taking a secondary importance.
Just the way it seems to me from my gaijin intuition -- take it for what it's
worth.
--
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David Luke Safety's just danger... out of place
lu...@in-system.com
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