Origin of 'Zubon'
Jason
Can anyone tell me where this word originates from. Over the years,
I've heard it may be French, Dutch or Portuguese?
Does anyone know for sure?
Regards,
Jason
Gyve Turquoise
"Jason" <tsugaru_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1a7f337.03050...@posting.google.com...
> Can anyone tell me where this word originates from. Over the years,
> I've heard it may be French, Dutch or Portuguese?
The explanation recorded in dictionaries such as "Koojien" is that it comes
from French "jupon", which is apparently a female garment. Japanese
dictionaries usually give the origin of foreign words like "koohii" or
"randoseru" which come from languages other than English.
Nowadays you often see "pantsu" rather than "zubon".
Jed Rothwell
> Nowadays you often see "pantsu" rather than "zubon".
As far as I know, "pantsu" means underpants, not trousers. The KKS J-E lists
"trousers, pants" under "pantsu" but I doubt it.
This is the sort of thing you can verify by visiting a department store in
Japan, or reading a Sunday supplement advertising section. I suppose you can
find it on the web on-line stores as well, but I haven't tried.
- Jed
Michael Cash
<jedro...@mindspring.com> groggily mumbled:
No, Jed, he's right. I suppose you must not have been back to Japan in
the last two or three years. With the way high school girls wear their
skirts recently, nowadays you often see "pantsu".
--
Michael Cash
"I used to have a dog named Michael Cash."
Prof. Ernest T. Bass
Mount Pilot College
http://www.sunfield.ne.jp/~mike/
masakim
Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
> Gyve Turquoise writes:
>
> > Nowadays you often see "pantsu" rather than "zubon".
>
> As far as I know, "pantsu" means underpants, not trousers. The KKS J-E
> lists "trousers, pants" under "pantsu" but I doubt it.
>
[SNIP]
>
401-21 衣食住:衣服
ズボン
スラックス／パンツ／パンタロン
共通する意味 洋服で腰から下を包む脚の部分が二またに分かれた外衣の総称。
使い方の例
〔ズボン〕 ズボンをはく／替えズボン
〔スラックス〕 自転車に乗るときはスラックスの方が楽だ
〔パンツ〕 綿のシャツとパンツで散歩に行く
〔パンタロン〕 パンタロンスーツ
それぞれの意味と使い分け
(1) 「ズボン」が、最も一般的。男物にいうことが多い。英語 trousers
(2) 「スラックス」は、細身のぴったりしたズボン。
(3) 「パンツ」は、木綿地の長ズボンをいうことが多い。
(4) 「パンタロン」は、すその広いゆったりしたズボン。主に女性用のものをい
う。
『類語例解辞典』（小学館 1994）
Regards,
masakim
masakim
"Jason" wrote:
>
> Can anyone tell me where this word originates from. Over the
> years, I've heard it may be French, Dutch or Portuguese?
>
> Does anyone know for sure?
>
あらかわ そおべえ『角川 外来語辞典 第二版』（角川書店 1977）
ズボン ［（アラビア jubba >）フランス jupon > 和］(スカートを意味するフラン
ス語ジュポンを語源とする和製語)〔服飾〕・・・
「ズボンの名称は仏語のjupon（ジュポン）から来たものらしく、此ジュポンとは下
袴とか腰巻の意味である」木村慶一『洋装読本』
[jupon n.m. (a) waist petticoat, underskirt, slip (Harrap's Shorter Eng/Fre
Fre/Eng)]
ジュバン [語源はアラビア jubbah 毛織の長い着物 >ポルトガル jubao 男子用の短
い胴着. オランダ jupon スカートの下にはくペチコート. (jupe スカート + 指小辞
on) つまり、ジュバンとズボンは同源]
Regards,
masakim
Don Kirkman
<b8r4ga$go$1...@nwall2.odn.ne.jp>:
My ShinMeiKaiwa says "pantsu" is short pants, not trousers, and that
formerly it means "zuro-su"*. I wonder if it still carries that
meaning as well as athletic shorts?**
* Note the clever use of commas. "Zuro-su" as in "Meet Me With Your
Black Drawers On," a traditional jazz riff.
** As recently as 1954 Kenkyusha's New J>E still defined "zuro-su" as
"drawers; bloomers; panties." Seems like three rather loosely related
types of unmentionables, by current usage.
--
Don
don...@covad.net
Gyve Turquoise
"Jed Rothwell" <jedro...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:DXbsa.48680$ey1.4...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> Gyve Turquoise writes:
>
> > Nowadays you often see "pantsu" rather than "zubon".
>
> As far as I know, "pantsu" means underpants, not trousers.
Hi Jed.
You are right that "pantsu" means underpants, but it is also used in the
American meaning of trousers. How do I know this? My wife reads the "sankei
shimbun" every day. I don't read that much of the newspaper, but I often
read the advertising inserts. Quite a lot are for clothes shops. My
observation about "pantsu" is based on reading quite a lot of these adverts.
Gyve Turquoise
"Gyve Turquoise" <gyve_tu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b8sb7d$2tuk$1...@nwall1.odn.ne.jp...
> You are right that "pantsu" means underpants, but it is also used in the
> American meaning of trousers. How do I know this? My wife reads the
"sankei
> shimbun" every day. I don't read that much of the newspaper, but I often
> read the advertising inserts. Quite a lot are for clothes shops. My
> observation about "pantsu" is based on reading quite a lot of these
adverts.
Sorry to post following up myself, but here is more evidence for "pantsu".
If you watch TV programmes like the one with "piiko-chan", the "karakuchi"
fashion expert, he usually refers to "pantsu" when talking about women's
trousers. I've never heard him say "zubon". (Piiko-chan doesn't mention
men's fashion. Perhaps "zubon" is more common for men?)
By the way, does anyone watch "piiko-chan"? He's quite funny because he
doesn't flatter the women but instead gives "karakuchi" (*) comments about
their fashion mistakes, how their clothes look too old for them or too young
or don't suit them in other ways. There are two TVs at my sports club and I
sometimes watch him when I'm doing aerobike bicycling. I think he must be on
TV nearly every day, although I don't really know what channel or time.
(*) What's "karakuchi" in English? Bookshelf basic gives "harsh, scathing".
Curt Fischer
According to the Nihongo Jaanaru, the "underwear" and "trousers" uses of
pantsu are distinguished by accent. But this is from the same article
that made all sorts of "distinguished by accent" claims that many people
here disagreed with.
--
Curt Fischer
Jim Breen
>Sorry to post following up myself, but here is more evidence for "pantsu".
>If you watch TV programmes like the one with "piiko-chan", the "karakuchi"
>fashion expert, he usually refers to "pantsu" when talking about women's
>trousers. I've never heard him say "zubon". (Piiko-chan doesn't mention
>men's fashion. Perhaps "zubon" is more common for men?)
I'll add "women's trousers" as a second sense to JMdict's パンツ entry,
>(*) What's "karakuchi" in English? Bookshelf basic gives "harsh, scathing".
辛口? The next JMdict will have: (n,adj-no) (1) dry taste (e.g. sake, wine);
(2) salty (taste); (3) harsh; scathing
--
Jim Breen (j.b...@csse.monash.edu.au http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/)
Computer Science & Software Engineering, Tel: +61 3 9905 3298
Monash University, VIC 3800, Australia Fax: +61 3 9905 5146
(Monash Provider No. 00008C) ジム・ブリーン@モナシュ大学
Hirofumi Nagamura
>
> As far as I know, "pantsu" means underpants, not trousers. The KKS J-E lists
> "trousers, pants" under "pantsu" but I doubt it.
Surely the word 綿パン "mempan" (< 綿のパンツ, cotton pants) was
current back when you were living in Japan? I heard from one of my
aunts that this word was already in use when she was young -- probably
the '50s or early '60s.
Cheers,
--
Hirofumi Nagamura
Kobe, Japan
Michael Cash
<gyve_tu...@hotmail.com> groggily mumbled:
I have been thinking about instituting an International Tribunal for
the punishment of fashion crimes. Not to punish the victims (those who
wear the offending fashions), but those who gave rise to them.
Sean Holland
mike...@sunfield.ne.jp wrote on 5/2/03 4:32 AM:
> I have been thinking about instituting an International Tribunal for
> the punishment of fashion crimes. Not to punish the victims (those who
> wear the offending fashions), but those who gave rise to them.
You're going to punish the victim's parents? That hardly seems fair.
---
http://www.nowhereradio.com/seanholland/singles
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/456/sean_r_holland.html
Dan Rempel
> On Thu, 01 May 2003 16:29:23 GMT, "Jed Rothwell"
> <jedro...@mindspring.com> groggily mumbled:
>
>
>>Gyve Turquoise writes:
>>
>>
>>>Nowadays you often see "pantsu" rather than "zubon".
>>
>>As far as I know, "pantsu" means underpants, not trousers. The KKS J-E lists
>>"trousers, pants" under "pantsu" but I doubt it.
>>
>>This is the sort of thing you can verify by visiting a department store in
>>Japan, or reading a Sunday supplement advertising section. I suppose you can
>>find it on the web on-line stores as well, but I haven't tried.
>
>
> No, Jed, he's right. I suppose you must not have been back to Japan in
> the last two or three years. With the way high school girls wear their
> skirts recently, nowadays you often see "pantsu".
An excellent reason to linger on the stairs in the larger eki, IMHO.
Dan
--
__
/ _|)
/ /
| |
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^| |^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
| |
__________| |___________
/ \
+_ / \
+ \ /
\_____________________ __/
Damien Neil
<cr...@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
> According to the Nihongo Jaanaru, the "underwear" and "trousers" uses of
> pantsu are distinguished by accent. But this is from the same article
> that made all sorts of "distinguished by accent" claims that many people
> here disagreed with.
It's accurate in this case, I believe. I was chatting with a NSOJ the
other day, and was very surprised when I heard him use "pantsu" to mean
"zubon".
The difference (for him, at least) is in how much you voice the
terminal 'u' sound. The "trousers" meaning doesn't have an 'u' on the
end, while the "underwear" meaning has a very distinct 'u'.
- Damien
Michael Cash
<dre...@lupo.cheese_lips> groggily mumbled:
>Michael Cash wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 01 May 2003 16:29:23 GMT, "Jed Rothwell"
>> <jedro...@mindspring.com> groggily mumbled:
>>
>>
>>>Gyve Turquoise writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Nowadays you often see "pantsu" rather than "zubon".
>>>
>>>As far as I know, "pantsu" means underpants, not trousers. The KKS J-E lists
>>>"trousers, pants" under "pantsu" but I doubt it.
>>>
>>>This is the sort of thing you can verify by visiting a department store in
>>>Japan, or reading a Sunday supplement advertising section. I suppose you can
>>>find it on the web on-line stores as well, but I haven't tried.
>>
>>
>> No, Jed, he's right. I suppose you must not have been back to Japan in
>> the last two or three years. With the way high school girls wear their
>> skirts recently, nowadays you often see "pantsu".
>
>An excellent reason to linger on the stairs in the larger eki, IMHO.
>
>Dan
No need for such as that. I'm talking skirts short enough that there
are times when I get a panchira while seated in my truck. I've never
measured, but I would guess that my eyeballs are somewhere between
eight and nine feet above ground level there.
Michael Cash
groggily mumbled:
>in article 0ol4bv0uem7c92d7i...@4ax.com, Michael Cash at
>mike...@sunfield.ne.jp wrote on 5/2/03 4:32 AM:
>
>
>> I have been thinking about instituting an International Tribunal for
>> the punishment of fashion crimes. Not to punish the victims (those who
>> wear the offending fashions), but those who gave rise to them.
>
>You're going to punish the victim's parents? That hardly seems fair.
More specifically I had in mind designers and fashion magazine
editors.
Gyve Turquoise
"Jim Breen" <jwbR...@csse.monash.edu.au> wrote in message
news:b8sgrl$5nj$3...@towncrier.its.monash.edu.au...
> Gyve Turquoise <gyve_tu...@hotmail.com> dixit:
>
> >Sorry to post following up myself, but here is more evidence for
"pantsu".
> >If you watch TV programmes like the one with "piiko-chan", the
"karakuchi"
> >fashion expert, he usually refers to "pantsu" when talking about women's
> >trousers. I've never heard him say "zubon". (Piiko-chan doesn't mention
> >men's fashion. Perhaps "zubon" is more common for men?)
>
> I'll add "women's trousers" as a second sense to JMdict's パンツ entry,
I have seen "pantsu" applied to both men's and women's trousers. I don't
have sufficient knowledge to tell you how common this is for either sex. I
hope someone more knowledgeable than me will contribute.
> >(*) What's "karakuchi" in English? Bookshelf basic gives "harsh,
scathing".
>
> 辛口? The next JMdict will have: (n,adj-no) (1) dry taste (e.g. sake,
wine);
> (2) salty (taste); (3) harsh; scathing
I think it's better than nothing but I'm not sure "harsh" or "scathing" is
always appropriate. The TV programme in question has a cameraman going
around Tokyo and filming members of the public, and the women say (something
like) "Piiko chan, fashon chekku wo karakuchi de o negai shimasu", or
sometimes "amakuchi" if they are not feeling brave. I don't think this
translates well into "Piiko chan, please give us a harsh, scathing fashion
check". Another example of "karakuchi" is the British film critic Barry
Norman. My wife says he's "karakuchi". What it means is that he doesn't
always say nice things, sometimes he'll really bash a film he thinks is
poor.
Anyway as I said above I don't necessarily agree with translating to "harsh"
or "scathing", hence my query. Perhaps the whole idea that telling the truth
instead of flattering people is something out of the ordinary is rather a
Japanese concept, and this word can't be translated into English very well.
ueshiba
news:3EB1CE97...@kh.rim.or.jp...
> Jed Rothwell wrote:
> >
> > As far as I know, "pantsu" means underpants, not trousers. The KKS J-E
lists
> > "trousers, pants" under "pantsu" but I doubt it.
>
> Surely the word 綿パン "mempan" (< 綿のパンツ, cotton pants) was
> current back when you were living in Japan?
In adiition, there was/is "tore'pan"("tore-ningu pantsu")
which has the entry even in the first edition of Koujien in 1955.
"Sho-to pantsu" is an old word, while "tan'pan" 短パン seems
to be comparatively new.
There were/are "kai'pan"("kaisui pantsu") and "suiei pantsu",
though I hesitate to categorize them into trousers.
Kouji Ueshiba
Shez
<gyve_tu...@hotmail.com> said:
>Another example of "karakuchi" is the British film critic Barry
>Norman. My wife says he's "karakuchi". What it means is that he doesn't
>always say nice things, sometimes he'll really bash a film he thinks is
>poor.
Are there critics who don't do that? I thought that was the whole point
of being a critic. I don't one who encourages me to see crap films.
If you think Barry Norman is karakuchi, you should try the art critic
Brian Sewell sometime. His eloquent disgust for most modern art is
almost an art form in itself.
-Shez.
--
______________________________________________________
Two can Live as Cheaply as One for Half as Long.
-- Howard Kandel
______________________________________________________
Take a break at the Last Stop Cafe: http://www.xerez.demon.co.uk/
Use http://www.xerez.demon.co.uk/mailform.html for personal replies
Bart Mathias
> [...]. I was chatting with a NSOJ the other day, and was very
> surprised when I heard him use "pantsu" to mean "zubon".
> The difference (for him, at least) is in how much you voice the
> terminal 'u' sound. The "trousers" meaning doesn't have an 'u' on
> the end, while the "underwear" meaning has a very distinct 'u'.
This seems to be a confirmation of the controversial difference in
akusento applied to these two senses in a post not long ago (and
mentioned a day or two ago in this very thread).
Voicing or unvoicing isn't phonemic in Japanese. That is, you can't
do it on purpose to get two different words with, otherwise, the same
segments (sounds, "letters").
Post-accented "i" and "u" tend to be devoiced after a voiceless
consonant at the end of an utterance, as when citing one word at a
time. This means that "trousers" would be HLL and "underwear" would
be LHH in the speech of the NSoJ in question.
If that corresponds to the difference in the previous word list, then
we have a match--at least some people do distinguish the two words by
accent.
Bart
Don Kirkman
>"Jim Breen" <jwbR...@csse.monash.edu.au> wrote in message
>news:b8sgrl$5nj$3...@towncrier.its.monash.edu.au...
>> I'll add "women's trousers" as a second sense to JMdict's パンツ entry,
>I have seen "pantsu" applied to both men's and women's trousers. I don't
>have sufficient knowledge to tell you how common this is for either sex. I
>hope someone more knowledgeable than me will contribute.
>> >(*) What's "karakuchi" in English? Bookshelf basic gives "harsh,
>scathing".
>> 辛口? The next JMdict will have: (n,adj-no) (1) dry taste (e.g. sake,
>wine);
>> (2) salty (taste); (3) harsh; scathing
>I think it's better than nothing but I'm not sure "harsh" or "scathing" is
>always appropriate. The TV programme in question has a cameraman going
>around Tokyo and filming members of the public, and the women say (something
>like) "Piiko chan, fashon chekku wo karakuchi de o negai shimasu", or
>sometimes "amakuchi" if they are not feeling brave. I don't think this
>translates well into "Piiko chan, please give us a harsh, scathing fashion
>check". Another example of "karakuchi" is the British film critic Barry
>Norman. My wife says he's "karakuchi". What it means is that he doesn't
>always say nice things, sometimes he'll really bash a film he thinks is
>poor.
How about acerbic, salty-tongued, acidulous, tart-tongued,
smart-mouthed?
--
Don
don...@covad.net
Gyve Turquoise
"Shez" <see...@nospam.demon.co.uk.invalid> wrote in message
news:tek87GPrC$s+E...@xerez.nospam.co.uk...
> Are there critics who don't do that? I thought that was the whole point
> of being a critic.
On Japanese TV it's unusual to see people expressing frank opinions. More
usual is to see people expressing fake excitement or other reactions. Hence
my query about "karakuchi".