'doushite' - 'douyatte' ?
Gavin Keir
>published in Showa 44 (1969), called ENGLISH-JAPANESE CONVERSATION
>DICTIONARY (by A. Rose-Innes) [.. snip]
Change of subject, but from the same book:
I have often had problems in using 'how' and 'why' in Japanese.
Doushite ikite iru deshou?
How can he manage to live?(with all his illnesses), also ...
Doushite kurashite iru no deshou?
How can he manage to live?(on what he learns)
I would tend to use douyatte!
-'douyatte' for 'how' and 'doushite' for 'why'.
Could you substitute 'doushite' for 'douyatte' in the above?
Another weird example that comes to mind is 'doushite shitte ru no?',
which is particularly hard for me to translate, but I take it as 'how
did you happen to know that?', even though I feel that the 'doushite'
is is more like a 'why' than a 'how'.
I am comfortable with statements like:
'doushite sonna koto itte ta no desu ka?' ,and ..
'douyatte (koko kara) Toukyou made iku tsumori desu ka?'
because they use 'why' and 'how' in a clear sense.
It seems that 'doushite' is put into sentences, where I
feel that 'douyatte' should be used. Maybe 'doushite' is most commonly
used, and 'douyatte' only has a very limited use - applied only to
those sentences that specifically relate to 'in what means, processes
or steps'.
?
Gavin Keir
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Flats/6356/index.html
Sean Holland
s24...@student.gu.edu.au (Gavin Keir) wrote:
>
>I have often had problems in using 'how' and 'why' in Japanese.
>
>Doushite ikite iru deshou?
>How can he manage to live?(with all his illnesses), also ...
>
>Doushite kurashite iru no deshou?
>How can he manage to live?(on what he learns)
>
>I would tend to use douyatte!
>-'douyatte' for 'how' and 'doushite' for 'why'.
>Could you substitute 'doushite' for 'douyatte' in the above?
(snip other examples)
I may be wrong, but I feel "doushite" is like "how come" or "how has it
come about that .....", while "douyatte" is asking how someone did
something. So:
Doushite ikiteiru no deshou. "How is that (someone) remains alive?"
Douyatte ikiteiru no deshou. "What does (someone) do to remain alive?"
It seems to me that "doushite" can ask how or why without strongly
suggesting a human agent of the outcome, while "douyatte" wants to know
the method used for achieving the outcome.
This is my instinct as a reasonably accomplished henna gaijin. I await
native speaker judgements, as well as those from ancient gaijin scholars.
(Smiley barely resisted here.)
--
Sean
Due to spam filtering, mail from hotmail or prodigy will not reach me.
Reuben Muns
> It seems to me that "doushite" can ask how or why without strongly
>suggesting a human agent of the outcome, while "douyatte" wants to know
>the method used for achieving the outcome.
> This is my instinct as a reasonably accomplished henna gaijin. I await
>native speaker judgements, as well as those from ancient gaijin scholars.
>(Smiley barely resisted here.)
Sounds reasonable to this ancient gaijin. However I'm not a
scholar.
Reuben
muchan
> I have often had problems in using 'how' and 'why' in Japanese.
>
> Doushite ikite iru deshou?
> How can he manage to live?(with all his illnesses), also ...
"...-ru-no deshou"probably "-no" is inside?
> Doushite kurashite iru no deshou?
> How can he manage to live?(on what he learns)
>
> I would tend to use douyatte!
> -'douyatte' for 'how' and 'doushite' for 'why'.
> Could you substitute 'doushite' for 'douyatte' in the above?
Doushite can be both "how" and "why", and tend to be understood as "why"Douyatte is "how".
So I recommend using "doushite" only as "why" and use "douyatte" when
you mean "how". Most of confusion is avoided. I think most of native
speakers also don't use "doushite" as "how" to avoid misunderstanding.
> Another weird example that comes to mind is 'doushite shitte ru no?',
> which is particularly hard for me to translate, but I take it as 'how
> did you happen to know that?', even though I feel that the 'doushite'
> is is more like a 'why' than a 'how'.
>
How do you know that? and
Why do you know that?
How do you feel the difference? Will you answer differently?
If so, doushite? and douyatte?
> I am comfortable with statements like:
> 'doushite sonna koto itte ta no desu ka?' ,and ..
> 'douyatte (koko kara) Toukyou made iku tsumori desu ka?'
> because they use 'why' and 'how' in a clear sense.
You have good sense, indeed.
> It seems that 'doushite' is put into sentences, where I
> feel that 'douyatte' should be used. Maybe 'doushite' is most commonly
> used, and 'douyatte' only has a very limited use - applied only to
> those sentences that specifically relate to 'in what means, processes
> or steps'.
> ?
>
> Gavin Keir
Now I wonder why /doo-shite/ became to mean "why".
There are many others like "nande", "naze" , etc.
In English course, (NHK radio...) I was tought that "How come?" and "Why?"
are sinonym. Are they? if not, doushite?
muchan
Nona Myers
>
These examples stumped me. I thought about what Sean and Muchan
said, and I like to offer samples and welcome any comments
because I know it's going to be difficult explaining.
>Doushite ikite iru deshou?
>How can he manage to live?(with all his illnesses), also ...
>
Both naze and nande are why, but if you change doushite to nande
or naze, this question is not the same, because then it becomes
why is someone living? The translation you printed shows how can
one manage to live with all the illnesses.
But, if I was wondering how someone can live (perhaps because I'm
angry at that person for misdeeds), I might say the following in
anger.
Nande ikiteiru no yo!
or
Doushite ikiteiru no yo!
(these two can also by translated as why as well as how can) In
this context, these two expressions basically mean the same IMO.
Now, if I was wondering how someone who has no money whatsoever
is living, I might say:
Douyatte ikiteiru no yo!
or
Doushite ikiteiru no yo!
In this context, these generally mean the same because I am
asking how. But as Sean has already indicated, the difference
is rather subtle. In the first example (douyatte), I may be
asking how, but more specifically; whereas in doushite, it's less
specific and more universal type of question.
>Doushite kurashite iru no deshou?
>How can he manage to live?(on what he learns)
>
>I would tend to use douyatte!
>-'douyatte' for 'how' and 'doushite' for 'why'.
>Could you substitute 'doushite' for 'douyatte' in the above?
See above. I think the usage of douyatte becomes more specfic.
Gee, I hope I didn't go "around-and-around" too much.
--
Nona Myers
(another hapa and foodie)
To learn about hapa: http://www.wenet.net/~hapa/
Sean Holland
(snip)
>But, if I was wondering how someone can live (perhaps because I'm
>angry at that person for misdeeds), I might say the following in
>anger.
>
>Nande ikiteiru no yo!
>or
>Doushite ikiteiru no yo!
>(these two can also by translated as why as well as how can) In
>this context, these two expressions basically mean the same IMO.
How about if you were a gang boss who had sent an underling out to
assasinate someone, and the next day you and the underling are walking
down the street and you spot the intended victim walking along the other
side of the street? You turn to the underling and ask "Aitsu wa naze
ikiteru ka." (I think there has to be a more gangster-like question-form,
but I'm not up on my panchi paamu lingo.) Or do you think you would use
"doushite" here?
Gavin Keir
I've tried to work it out - so I'll caution you now that it gets
pretty heavy.
Muchan wrote:
>> Doushite ikite iru deshou?
>> How can he manage to live?(with all his illnesses), also ...
>"...-ru-no deshou"probably "-no" is inside?
Yes, you're right. I checked the book and it should be:
'Doushite ikite iru no deshou?'
>[..snip]So I recommend using "doushite" only as "why" and use "douyatte" when
>you mean "how".
That's good to hear. But, I think the problem I have is that I
interpret 'doushite' as why.
Let me explain... (I think I've found the answer too).
Take the following good example:
'doushite shitte ru no?' When a Japanese person asks me 'doushite
shitte ru no?' I cannot help but be shocked every time, because I
translate 'doushite' as 'why', not 'how'.
>>How do you know that? and
>>Why do you know that?
>>How do you feel the difference? Will you answer differently?
Yes, they feel very different. Both can be said in English, but
they have different uses. It's a bit messy but here goes...
Imagine A is asking B the question.
'Why do you know that?' is limited to situations where the A didn't
expect B to know something that B should not know.
It could be because the knowledge is secret or hidden.
There is an element of accusation towards B [1].
'How do you know that?' is widely used in general situations,
particularly when it is assumed that A dosen't know, but B knows.
So I would recommend, when asking 'doushite shitte ru no?' in English,
to say 'How do you know that?', rather than 'Why do you know that?'
Now,
I'm using square brackets to show how the 'hows' and 'why' in Japanese
and English are different. []
This is how I see the Japanese use 'why' and 'how':
Use 'DOUSHITE' when you want a general, unfocused explaination of the
phenomena concerned, or when generally questioning the person's
aquirement of the knowledge [2][I would guess the '1' usage from the
example above goes here too, or would a different word be used like
'naze'?].
and use 'DOUYATTE' when you want to know specific structured detail
that relates to the person's actions [3].
This is how I see English speakers use 'why' and 'how':
Use 'WHY' when you want a specific, focused explaination of the
phenomena concerned, or when specifically questioning the person's
aquirement of the knowledge [1 as in example above].
and use 'HOW' when you want a general, unfocused explaination of the
phenomena concerned, or when generally questioning the person's
aquirement of the knowledge [2], or when you want to know specific
structured detail that relates to the person's actions taken [3].
See how: 'DOUSHITE' can have the English meaning of 'how' [2], and
'why' [1], and how: 'HOW' can have the Japanese meaning of 'DOUYATTE'
[3] and 'DOUSHITE'.
>Now I wonder why /doo-shite/ became to mean "why".
Exactly. From looking at the above you can see that /doo-shite/ can be
either 'how' or 'why' in English.
>There are many others like "nande", "naze" , etc.
Would I be right in saying that 'nande' is a weak 'why' and 'naze' is
a strong 'why'?
There are so many different ways of saying 'doushite' in Japanese
(naze, nande ..?), that I am led to believe that they each have
different strengths. I think 'why' in English can be soft, however, as
there are no other ways of saying 'why', I think the 'why' meaning in
questions is quite limited (in English).
-That may explain why the broader broader 'DOUSHITE (&naze, nande...)
is an umbrella to all the English 'how' and 'why' definitions
(besides[3]).
>In English course, (NHK radio...) I was tought that "How come?" and "Why?"
>are sinonym. Are they? if not, doushite?
(^O^)ha. Yes, the same meaning. eg.
How come = (why did it happen that ..)
How come you're going to the beach? (colloquial) - ['how' nuance is
asking general, unfocused explaination of the phenomena concerned]
Why are you going to the beach? - can be strong or soft depending on
voice ['why' nuance is asking specific, focused explaination of the
phenomena concerned]
How come you're late? -general/soft
Why are you late? - specific/strong
Nande, naze, and doushite probably differ in a simular way.
?
Jegs123
(Gavin Keir) writes:
>See how: 'DOUSHITE' can have the English meaning of 'how' [2], and
>'why' [1], and how: 'HOW' can have the Japanese meaning of 'DOUYATTE'
>[3] and 'DOUSHITE'.
> From looking at the above you can see that /doo-shite/ can be
>either 'how' or 'why' in English.
My general impression is that you're trying too hard to find relationships
between these two completely different languages here.
>>There are many others like "nande", "naze" , etc.
>Would I be right in saying that 'nande' is a weak 'why' and 'naze' is
>a strong 'why'?
"nande" is simply a loose form of "naze" and I don't see any weak/strong factor
in it.
[from your other post]
>> It seems that 'doushite' is put into sentences, where I
>> feel that 'douyatte' should be used. Maybe 'doushite' is most commonly
>> used, and 'douyatte' only has a very limited use - applied only to
>> those sentences that specifically relate to 'in what means, processes
>> or steps'.?
That's essentially correct, and if you see 'doushite' used in place of
'douyatte', that's because the speaker is shortening the word
"dou(y/iufuuni)shite", IMO.
Tony J
Nona Myers
Holland) wrote:
>
> How about if you were a gang boss who had sent an underling out to
>assasinate someone, and the next day you and the underling are walking
>down the street and you spot the intended victim walking along the other
>side of the street? You turn to the underling and ask "Aitsu wa naze
>ikiteru ka." (I think there has to be a more gangster-like question-form,
>but I'm not up on my panchi paamu lingo.) Or do you think you would use
>"doushite" here?
Explaining different aspects of language is hard isn't it? I've
been having many such conversations with my Japanese nephew who
is currently studying English in Vancouver. He has pointed out
many things I now take for granted in English language, but when
I was first studying it, I too had many sleepless nights. (g)
Since he will be living with me starting next year while he
attends a stateside college, I'm betting I will again have many
sleepless nights pondering language related questions.
Getting back to the subject, no, I would not say "aitsu wa
doushite ikiteru ka" in that particular situation. Neither would
I use douyatte because I'm not asking how, but why. I can clearly
see that he is still living and not asking for further in-depth
explanation of how. On the other hand, if I was this victim's
friend, then I may ask the same question of him by substituting
nande/naze with douyatte, and perhaps with doushite (but, less
likely). I may be wrong in my assumption, but I like to consider
douyatte more as a "action word" and doushite as a
"mental/emotion word."
BTW, I am amazed and impressed by your (and Tony J) insight into
these Japanese language nuances since it is not your first
language. So, perhaps your labeling of henna gaigin to yourself
is much deserved.
Chuck Douglas
[edit]
>In English course, (NHK radio...) I was tought that "How come?" and "Why?"
>are sinonym. Are they? if not, doushite?
They are synonyms. "How come?" tends to be a bit midwestern and
supposedly originates from the Germanic settlers in the area who's
native language translated more to "How come?" rather than "Why?"
--
Chuck Douglas -- chuc...@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu
"I don't pretend I have all the answers/Just the obvious ones"
--_Backbone_ by Baby Animals
Homepage down until further notice.
muchan
I can't say anything for sure, because I don't know English in such
deeper level of feeling.
When English "Why do you know that?" and "How do you know that?"
has a different nuance, that "Why?" indicate (s)he should not know,
I think Japanese "doushite shitteruno?" is closer to "Why".
In other word, if that fact is indeed a secret no one should know,
and someone outside revealed it, the surprised 3rd person would cry
Doushite aitsu-ga shittrun-da!?
But in this situation, too, both "Why" and "How" fits for this last
sentense, I guess.
muchan
Gavin Keir wrote:
> See how: 'DOUSHITE' can have the English meaning of 'how' [2], and
> 'why' [1], and how: 'HOW' can have the Japanese meaning of 'DOUYATTE'
> [3] and 'DOUSHITE'.
>
> >Now I wonder why /doo-shite/ became to mean "why".
> Exactly. From looking at the above you can see that /doo-shite/ can be
> either 'how' or 'why' in English.
> >There are many others like "nande", "naze" , etc.
> Would I be right in saying that 'nande' is a weak 'why' and 'naze' is
> a strong 'why'?
> There are so many different ways of saying 'doushite' in Japanese
> (naze, nande ..?), that I am led to believe that they each have
> different strengths. I think 'why' in English can be soft, however, as
> there are no other ways of saying 'why', I think the 'why' meaning in
> questions is quite limited (in English).
> -That may explain why the broader broader 'DOUSHITE (&naze, nande...)
> is an umbrella to all the English 'how' and 'why' definitions
> (besides[3]).
>
> >In English course, (NHK radio...) I was tought that "How come?" and "Why?"
> >are sinonym. Are they? if not, doushite?