Addressing women as "omae" or "kimi"
Ken Nicolson
its own.
Doing a straw poll of a few Japanese women in the office (25-35ish,
technical and OL types), they express varying degrees of dislike for
"omae" and "kimi", prefering their names (and the occasional "anata")
from men, even boyfriends, and would prefer the men to refer to
themselves as "watashi" or "boku".
A straw poll of some other gaijin friends with Japanese girlfriends
indicates that their girlfriends too hold the same opinions, so that's
what they use. There's also an issue that some aren't fully
comfortable in Japanese, otherwise they'd use "ore" when out drinking
with their buddies.
From what I know of the average Japanese man, they may use "omae" and
"kimi" most often, because, perhaps, that's what society has
conditioned them to use.
I'm sticking with their names and anata. Has anyone got a differing
opinion on this.
Ken
Brett Robson
I've talked about this at length with my female Japanese friends who are
all well educated and most are teachers. Many of them tell me that no
one ever says omae and ore as it's really rude and coarse. One woman
says straight out that her boyfriend never uses these words (I've got
news for her!) Some of the younger ones call themselves atashi but most
use watashi. With one teacher I have a private class with, although we
use strictly casual speech (that's the whole idea of the lessons) it is
obvious she doesn't like kimi.
I play cards with a group of of Japanese and foreign men that involves
lots of smoking and drinking, and everyone uses omae or kimi, ore,
koitsu, and aitsu. )It also involves a lot of swearing in English) None
of us work together so there is no sempai.
However the few times that women come along the language lifts a bit.
The guys still use the previous terms to each other but when talking to
the girls they use mainly names.
I have a very close friend friend and she still calls me Buretto-san
when speaking to me, I'd like her to at least drop the san, and she
calls herself watashi. I call her Mi-chan, kimi seems most natural when
used as "kimi no XXX", maybe "kimi ni" but not than "kimi ha/ga", even
then it is very rare.
俺より
--
And it is being planned by generals who have
learned little, if anything, from history.
... Who express disappointment that 4 weeks
of bombing big rocks into little rocks has
not produced a disintegration of the Taliban.
- Brigadier Adrian D'Hage
Adriaan Tijsseling
> using with his lover. I can't recall hearing any J men using it that way.
> You will probably be in the minority. I feel much more comfortable with
> "jibun" or "kimi".
jibun? As in "自分"? That sounds pretty ego-centric.
The best way to address someone still is using their names.
IMHO,
adriaan
Dave Fossett
> Following on from another thread, I thought I'd move this issue out on
> its own.
An interesting point of view I heard on TV this evening...
They were interviewing married women in the street about reasons for
ever having considered divorce. Of course the top reasons were things
like unfaithfulness and snoring, but one women said that she hated the
way that her husband only ever called he "omae" after they got married,
and that it was enough to make her at least contemplate divorce.
--
Dave Fossett
Saitama, JAPAN
Hirofumi Nagamura
>
[> Joe O'Brien wrote:]
Dunno where Joe picked up his Japanese, but "jibun" is commonly used
as a *second* person pronoun in Kansai dialect.
Cheers,
--
Hirofumi Nagamura
Freelance technical translator
Kobe, Japan
Trinker
It could have been worse. I once heard of a couple who divorced
because he always called her "oi!"
Adriaan Tijsseling
> Adriaan Tijsseling wrote:
> >
> [> Joe O'Brien wrote:]
> >
> > > To me, "anata" sounds kinda effeminate and overly polite for a guy to be
> > > using with his lover. I can't recall hearing any J men using it that way.
> > > You will probably be in the minority. I feel much more comfortable with
> > > "jibun" or "kimi".
> >
> > jibun? As in "自分"? That sounds pretty ego-centric.
> > The best way to address someone still is using their names.
>
> Dunno where Joe picked up his Japanese, but "jibun" is commonly used
> as a *second* person pronoun in Kansai dialect.
Glad to hear that. I thought I may have been wrong myself.
As an aside, I was watching G-Katchinko (spelling?) last tuesday and I
found it remarkable how many times "自分" was used. Given that the
latest enquete showed that the japanese youth are rather
self-directed, it is a nice observation...
:)
Adriaan
Ross Klatte
>Date: 2001-11-28 13:44 Eastern Standard Time
>Dave Fossett wrote:
>> one women said that she hated the way that her husband
>> only ever called he "omae" after they got married, and that
>> it was enough to make her at least contemplate divorce.
>It could have been worse. I once heard of a couple who
>divorced because he always called her "oi!"
These men obviously got the intonation wrong. Wives enjoy
being called "oi" and "omae," provided the words are
accompanied by an intimate and affectionate backhand
just above the ear, which produces a ringing tone.
Ross
http://www.geocities.com/ross_klatte/
Dave Fossett
> Dunno where Joe picked up his Japanese, but "jibun" is commonly used
> as a *second* person pronoun in Kansai dialect.
I didn't know that. Does it not cause confusion outside Kansai, where
"jibun" would probably be assumed to refer to the speaker?
Lei Tanabe
"Ross Klatte" <klatt...@aol.commmm> wrote
> >From: Trinker trinke...@yahoo.com
> >Dave Fossett wrote:
> >> one women said that she hated the way that her husband
> >> only ever called he "omae" after they got married, and that
> >> it was enough to make her at least contemplate divorce.
> >It could have been worse. I once heard of a couple who
> >divorced because he always called her "oi!"
My father never call my mother with "oi!" or "omae".
In my family I learned they weren't good words to use.
So, I was surprised when I encountered those words while visiting a friend
of mine and thought my mother would divorce my father if she was called like
that.
But, the friend's parents were a nice intimate couple, and I learned people
use the same words differently.
> These men obviously got the intonation wrong. Wives enjoy
> being called "oi" and "omae," provided the words are
> accompanied by an intimate and affectionate backhand
> just above the ear, which produces a ringing tone.
Some women seem to feel more comfortable being under the umbrella of a man.
But quite often they accept that sort of wording as customary without making
a fuss about the implication.
In the same way, most wives refer to their husbands as "shujin".
Lei
Hirofumi Nagamura
>
> > > Dunno where Joe picked up his Japanese, but "jibun" is commonly used
> > > as a *second* person pronoun in Kansai dialect.
>
Aha! Bingo!
> I notice that some Japanese people here in New York seem to get confused
> when call them "jibun." I had assumed that "jibun" was a slangy term used or
> at least understood by young people throughout Japan.
They might be used to hearing it on TV -- with all the Kansai
comedians on the airwaves -- but they'll be confused when they hear it
in real life. Especially when it's coming from a gaijin-san. :-)
Hirofumi Nagamura
Indeed it does. A few months ago, muchan mentioned being confused by a
"jibun" uttered by a Wakayamakenjin.
Conversely, some non-Kansaijin use first-person "jibun" with the
particle "wa": for instance, "Jibun wa (= Watashi wa) soo wa
omoimasen". This usage probably causes little confusion, but annoys me
no end.
Edward Cha
: "jibun" uttered by a Wakayamakenjin.
: Conversely, some non-Kansaijin use first-person "jibun" with the
: particle "wa": for instance, "Jibun wa (= Watashi wa) soo wa
: omoimasen". This usage probably causes little confusion, but annoys me
: no end.
This is very interesting. I have noticed that a lot of people don't like
it when people use the first-person usage of 'jibun.' Why is it so annoying?
Ed
: Cheers,
Hirofumi Nagamura
>
> : Conversely, some non-Kansaijin use first-person "jibun" with the
> : particle "wa": for instance, "Jibun wa (= Watashi wa) soo wa
> : omoimasen". This usage probably causes little confusion, but annoys me
> : no end.
>
> This is very interesting. I have noticed that a lot of people don't like
> it when people use the first-person usage of 'jibun.' Why is it so annoying?
Hmm. Well, for one thing, it just sounds wrong. :-)
Seriously, the usage has strong militaristic overtones, since it was
preferred usage in the old Imperial Army (or so I've heard). People
who say "jibun wa" (most often athletic types suffering from a severe
lack of brain) are either ignorant of or insensitive to this nuance of
the word, and that irritates me a lot.
Edward Cha
: > it when people use the first-person usage of 'jibun.' Why is it so annoying?
: Hmm. Well, for one thing, it just sounds wrong. :-)
: Seriously, the usage has strong militaristic overtones, since it was
: preferred usage in the old Imperial Army (or so I've heard). People
: who say "jibun wa" (most often athletic types suffering from a severe
: lack of brain) are either ignorant of or insensitive to this nuance of
: the word, and that irritates me a lot.
That makes sense... interesting.
Thanks!
Ed
: Cheers,