shirimasu/shitte imasu
Philip Brown
Note: correct your newsreader to post to 80 columns. It is a mess, and
non-standard.
On Thu, 01 Jul 1999 00:24:19 +0800, pc...@netfront.net wrote:
>... I hope someone can clarify
>as to why 'we' would use 'shitte imasu' rather than 'shirimasu'.
comprehension-wise, I think its similar to the difference between
"I do xxx"
vs
"I am doing xxx"
as to WHY.. sometimes, you just have to memorise,and forget "why".
Some things are just traditional, or "idiomatic".
--
[Trim the no-bots from my address to reply to me by email!]
[ Do NOT email-CC me on posts. Pick one or the other.]
--------------------------------------------------
The word of the day is mispergitude
Gerald B Mathias
: Note: correct your newsreader to post to 80 columns. It is a mess, and
: non-standard.
: On Thu, 01 Jul 1999 00:24:19 +0800, pc...@netfront.net wrote:
: >... I hope someone can clarify
: >as to why 'we' would use 'shitte imasu' rather than 'shirimasu'.
: comprehension-wise, I think its similar to the difference between
: "I do xxx"
: vs
: "I am doing xxx"
And it's even more similar to the difference between
"I'm going to xxx"
vs
"I have xxxed and the result is still in effect."
"I have found out and (haven't forgotten)."
"shiru" is fairly easy to use in the past tense: "sore-o sitta toki..." =
"When I found out about that..." but it isn't an exact match for "find
out," because while in English we can say "I'm going to find out (what
happened, where they are, ....)," "shiru" is not something one can do on
purpose. So "shiru/shirimasu" are quite rare.
Bart
--
The Australians, Chinese, et. al., are clearly correct in their
belief that south is "up." If north were "up," then the solar
system and our galaxy would be rotating *counter*clockwise.
What a sinister universe *that* would be! -- Buck A. Yarrow
pces
December.. I asked
about whether or not I wrote a particular phrase correctly and muchan
corrected me.
(btw, domo arigatou gozaimasu.. if I forgot. :))
Anyway, in that particular phrase, I had a 'shirimasu...'.
I was corrected to 'shitte imasu'. Since I didn't know much about
Japanese
grammar back then, I just took it in without knowing the truth..
Now during my current Japanese studies, I've come across this issue, and
my teacher didn't really explain it that well. I hope someone can
clarify
as to why 'we' would use 'shitte imasu' rather than 'shirimasu'.
My prof's explanation : "If you say it incorrectly, it sounds like
shinimasu.. which
means an entirely different thing."(ie. to die... or go die or something
similar).
But a thought came to me while walking to work. At that particular time
when
someone uses 'shirimasu', wouldn't the context give the listener ample
reason
to believe the speaker was saying 'shirimasu' and not shinimasu?
Nevertheless, I was hoping someone might clarify as to why 'shitte
imasu' is
used rather than 'shirimasu'. If 'shitte imasu' is used, then when
does one
say 'shirimasu'?
As a side point, I know the reason why we don't use 'shitte imasen'..
(since
you either know it, or you don't.. you can't continue not knowing
something...
or can you? This is what's confusing me... anyway, is this reasoning
similar
to the explanation of the 'shitte imasu' vs. 'shirimasu'?
PS: Just trying my new learnt skills.. can someone point out if it
worked?
I used NJIS..
どな ときに 「しっています」と いいますか。
Thanks.
Philip Brown
>Philip Brown (phi...@bolthole.no-bots.com) wrote:
>: On Thu, 01 Jul 1999 00:24:19 +0800, pc...@netfront.net wrote:
>: >as to why 'we' would use 'shitte imasu' rather than 'shirimasu'.
>
>: "I do xxx"
>: vs
>: "I am doing xxx"
>
>And it's even more similar to the difference between
>"I'm going to xxx"
>vs
>"I have xxxed and the result is still in effect."
um, yeah. oops. I DO know the difference, between past and present
tense, really, I do....:-)
Lessee, now since this is sci.lang.japan,is "shitte imase" present perfect,
past imperfect, or...
Methinks past imperfect, if I remember my old grammar nazi correctly, but...
Hisashi FUKUI
>If 'shitte imasu' is used, then when
>does one say 'shirimasu'?
It is used as such:
hito ha byouki wo shite hajimete
kenkou no arigatasa wo shiru/shirimasu.
(It is not until we get seriously ill
that we realize the value of health.)
pces also wrote in message:
>can someone point out if it worked?
>どな ときに 「しっています」と いいますか。
We spell the first word not as どな but どんな,
except for that, it is natural and perfectly works.
yuxuan
"Hisashi FUKUI" <hfu...@pop06.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
> pces wrote in message:
> >If 'shitte imasu' is used, then when
> >does one say 'shirimasu'?
>
> It is used as such:
>
> hito ha byouki wo shite hajimete
> kenkou no arigatasa wo shiru/shirimasu.
> (It is not until we get seriously ill
> that we realize the value of health.)
I guess the important thing about this example is that "shiru" is
habitual. This would also explain why these sentences are quite rare -
"coming to know (without deliberate intent)" is not something that
happens every day ;)
I can't think of any specific examples - and hesitate to make any up -
but I'm sure I've seen "shiru" in "... shiru to..." and "... shiru
shidai" type constructions. Again, both of these constructions are (or
can be) habitual, so I guess that figures.
JohN
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Sean Holland
>
> pces wrote in message:
> >If 'shitte imasu' is used, then when
> >does one say 'shirimasu'?
>
> It is used as such:
>
> hito ha byouki wo shite hajimete
> kenkou no arigatasa wo shiru/shirimasu.
> (It is not until we get seriously ill
> that we realize the value of health.)
>
"realize" than "know".
Most learners first encounter the -te iru construction in the sense of
progressive or continuous action: "Taroukun wa gohan o tabeteimasu" and so on.
It is usually when they know only this use of the -te iru construction that
they learn "shitte imasu/shirimasen", and so they experience a bit of a mental
cramp with this verb that seems so unreasonable.
Once you know that the -te iru construction can also convey the idea of
completion, and that "shiru" is not an exact gloss of the English verb "know",
then the whole thing makes sense.
Boku wa mou tabeteimasu. "I have already eaten." Here I am (imasu) after
eating.I am in a state of having eaten. Or however you want to get your brain
around it.
So "shitteimasu". I am in a state of having found out/realized.
Tomoyuki Tanaka
>
>It is used as such:
>
>hito ha byouki wo shite hajimete
>kenkou no arigatasa wo shiru/shirimasu.
>
>(It is not until we get seriously ill
>that we realize the value of health.)
>
excellent.
i think shiru/shirimasu is only used in proverbs/maxims
(like your example) or in translation of ancient writing
(e.g., Confucius).
ishoku tarite reisetu (?) wo siru.
--
;;; TANAKA Tomoyuki ("Mr. Tanaka" or "Tomoyuki")
;;; http://www.cs.indiana.edu/hyplan/tanaka.html
muchan
> This example underlines the idea that "shiru" is closer to "find out" or
> "realize" than "know".
> Most learners first encounter the -te iru construction in the sense of
> progressive or continuous action: "Taroukun wa gohan o tabeteimasu" and so on.
> It is usually when they know only this use of the -te iru construction that
> they learn "shitte imasu/shirimasen", and so they experience a bit of a mental
> cramp with this verb that seems so unreasonable.
> Once you know that the -te iru construction can also convey the idea of
> completion, and that "shiru" is not an exact gloss of the English verb "know",
> then the whole thing makes sense.
> Boku wa mou tabeteimasu. "I have already eaten." Here I am (imasu) after
> eating.I am in a state of having eaten. Or however you want to get your brain
> around it.
> So "shitteimasu". I am in a state of having found out/realized.
If I was asked the question, probably I'd answer same way.
(shiru is "action of fining out", "getting to know", and shitte-iru is
state of already having got to know. )
I was to write a oposition to the TT's "only" (shiru is used only in proverb),
and noticed that the problem was not so simple...
To say "I know", you say "shitte-(i)ru" or "shitte-imasu",
to say 'I don't know", you say "shira-nai" "shiri-masen".
There is mismatch in tense/aspect of two usages.
I did not "find out" the right answer to this mystery, for now,
an easy answer is that
"shiri-masen" means "(mada) shiri-masen" (I'm not to find it out yet.)
muchan
Philip Brown
>Philip Brown wrote:
>
>> Note: correct your newsreader to post to 80 columns. It is a mess, and
>> non-standard.
>>
>
>to Netscape Communicator 4.65. Sorry for the
>mess.
step 1. fix a "fixed width" font for the posting bit.
step 2. I think there is a window width setting somewheres.
if not, then just count the chars one day, and resize as appropriate.
It will probably keep that size for you.
>>...
>> as to WHY.. sometimes, you just have to memorise,and forget "why".
>> Some things are just traditional, or "idiomatic".
>
>I suppose it's one of these things that I need to take 'as is'.
>Since my grammar is very weak in this respect, I think I'll
>take the easy way out and take it as it is. ;)
I think the other postings about it make more sense as to "why".
Mike Wright
>
[...]
> Btw, I noticed you used 'ha'. When
> using roomanji, does one use 'wa'
> or 'ha'?
IMNSHO, it should depend on whether you are stressing the pronunciation (wa) or
transcribing written Japanese (ha).
It's becoming obvious that the very first item in every FAQ should simply be:
1. ROMAJI, ROMAJI, ROMAJI!!!
--
Mike Wright
http://www.mbay.net/~darwin/language.html
_____________________________________________________
"China is a big country, inhabited by many Chinese."
-- Charles de Gaulle
nishikawa
pces <pc...@netfront.net> wrote in message
news:377B9D01...@netfront.net...
> "ofuro ni haitte imasu" = I am in the process of taking a shower.
> "ofuro ni hairimasu" = I take a shower.
Analyse the following expressions. It is simple.
ofuro ni haitte imasu = I've already begun to take a shower. (e.g.
Edmund,
ofuroni hayaku hairinasai. mou haitte imasu. )
ofuro ni hairimasu = I take a shower. (Kyou ha ofuroni hairimasu.
Asumo ofuroni hairimasu. Mainichi ofuroni hairimasu.)
Boku wa mou tabe te imasu. I've already begun to eat. (e.g. Douzo
Douzo
osushi wo tabetekudasai, Edmund-san. Arigatou. Boku wa mou tabe te
imasu. Douzo osake wo nonde kudasai, Edmund-san. Boku wa mou non de
imasu.)
Boku wa mou tabe mashita. I've already eaten. (e.g. Osushi wo tabete
kudasi, Edmund-san. Arigatou. Boku wa mou tabe mashita.)
nishikawa
Prince Richard Kaminski
Sean wrote:
> > Boku wa mou tabeteimasu. "I have already eaten." Here I am (imasu) after
> > eating.I am in a state of having eaten. Or however you want to get your
brain
> > around it.
>
> I'm having some difficulty in getting my brain around
> this, but I'm beginning to understand it(which is strange,
> considering I feel very confused). You mean to tell me
> that even though I have already eaten ("Boku wa mou tabetemashita"),
> I can still be acknowledged as _still_ being in a state of
> 'already eaten'?
You hear the same thing a lot with "mou kite imasu". This doesn't mean he's
coming already, but rather he's already arrived. (He is in a state of having
come) No rude jokes about this one, please, although I know I'm asking for
it with that example. Similarly, "mou tsuite imasu" - it is already
included. (It is in the state of being included). If you see what I mean,
although I haven't explained it very well.
(This is mindboggling, I mean, to me, I would
> have just simply stated that I've eaten and that's it. I don't
> think about myself 'still' in the state of already eaten considering
> that action would have passed a few minutes/hours/days ago.)
If it was days ago or hours ago, you wouldn't say it. It means you are still
in the state you were when you finished eating, ie not hungry, or at least
less hungry than when you started.
> So:
>
> "ofuro ni haitte imasu" = I am in the process of taking a shower.
> "ofuro ni hairimasu" = I take a shower.
Or "I'll take a shower".
> I know my translation's most likely off as I'm having trouble
> grasping the grammar. (Heck, it took me awhile to figure
> out the English grammar and I _know_ that I'm still having
> trouble with it.)
>
> I know there's a slight difference between the two statements,
> but I just can't point it out other than the point that
> the second statement does not have a 'continual time' factor
> attributed to it (ie. an immediate split-second action); whereas,
> the first statement has an implied 'time' factor.
You're getting a bit too heavy for me, and I don't quite know what you mean.
The present tense is often used to refer to the future, "Kyou kuru?" (Are
you coming today?). Basically, Japanese has different ways of saying things,
and you mustn't fall into the trap of fitting everything into cozy English
equivalents, because usually they don't fit like that. Just learn the
Japanese way of saying things without interference from the English, and
imitate it.
Prince Richard Kaminski
> Btw, I noticed you used 'ha'. When
> using roomanji, does one use 'wa'
> or 'ha'?
My turn at the windmill. First of all, and most importantly, it's roomaji,
and not roomanji, or any other variant with an "n" in it. There is no "n" in
roomaji and never has been. In English it can be written "romaji"
abbreviating the double o. But never with an "n".
The "wa" and "ha" are up to each individual. There are various styles of
romanisation with different names which I can never remember, and all of
them do things slightly differently. Usually, you will find that Japanese
people romanise it as "ha" following Japanese orthography, and foreigners do
it as "wa" following the pronunciation. This also applies to things like
"zu" and "du", and "tu" and "tsu". Muchan recently wrote "tuduku" here,
which most gaijin would probably write "tsuzuku".
Gerald B Mathias
: Sean Holland wrote:
: > Once you know that the -te iru construction can also convey the idea of
: > completion, and that "shiru" is not an exact gloss of the English verb "know",
: > then the whole thing makes sense.
: It isn't? What other meanings does it have?
Several of us have suggested it means something like "to attain knowledge
of, to (happen to) find out." (muchan pointed out that that doesn't work
well with the negative "shiranai," which doesn't mean "I won't find out."
I haven't seen any better solution to that problem than his "missing
'mada'" but since you can't just leave "mada" out whenever you feel like
it, it probably comes down to [yuchh!] "idiom.")
: So:
: "ofuro ni haitte imasu" = I am in the process of taking a shower.
: "ofuro ni hairimasu" = I take a shower.
: I know my translation's most likely off as I'm having trouble
: grasping the grammar. (Heck, it took me awhile to figure
: out the English grammar and I _know_ that I'm still having
: trouble with it.)
Unless Japanese language/culture has changed behind my back, those are "I
am/She is/They are in the bath(tub)/taking a bath" and "I'm going to
take a bath/get in the bathtub" respectively. The second one could also
mean "One takes a bath (as the normal thing to do under the contextual
conditions)."
Your English matches better with "shawaa-o abite imasu" and "(taisoo-o
shita ato-ni itsumo 'always after exercise') shawaa-o abimasu." (Unless
suddenly the shower has completely taken the place of the ohuro.) Notice
your English has no tense; it suggests lots of different times.
Basically, VERB-te i-(ru/masu) indicates a state or action in *duration*.
In the case of "haitte iru" it is durative *state* (I ignore an exception
here) because "hairu" = "change from 'out' to 'in,' get in, enter" takes
no time--either you're already in or you're not in yet at any given
instant. If you "hairimashita" you may or may not still be "in." (When
talking about the bath, one wouldn't normally say this unless one was
finished, however.) If you're "haitte imasu" (present perfect *in a
way*), you're still in.
"Abiru" is a process, so "Abimashita" necessarily means you're done with
your shower. "Abite imasu" means you're continuing the process. "Abite
imashita" would mean you were doing it *when something else happened*.
Bart
--
The Australians, Chinese, et. al., are clearly correct in their
belief that south is "up." If north were "up," then the solar
system and our galaxy would be rotating *counter*clockwise.
What a devilish universe *that* would be! -- Buck A. Yarrow
pces
> Note: correct your newsreader to post to 80 columns. It is a mess, and
> non-standard.
>
How do I correct this problem? I only just upgraded
to Netscape Communicator 4.65. Sorry for the
mess.
> comprehension-wise, I think its similar to the difference between
> "I do xxx"
> vs
> "I am doing xxx"
>
> as to WHY.. sometimes, you just have to memorise,and forget "why".
> Some things are just traditional, or "idiomatic".
I suppose it's one of these things that I need to take 'as is'.
Since my grammar is very weak in this respect, I think I'll
take the easy way out and take it as it is. ;)
Thanks for the clarification.
pces
> pces wrote in message:
> >If 'shitte imasu' is used, then when
> >does one say 'shirimasu'?
>
> It is used as such:
>
> hito ha byouki wo shite hajimete
> kenkou no arigatasa wo shiru/shirimasu.
> (It is not until we get seriously ill
> that we realize the value of health.)
>
wowzers.. I'm glad you gave me that
translation as there are quite a few
things that I haven't learnt yet.
(that being arigatasa and others..)
Thanks for the help.
Btw, I noticed you used 'ha'. When
using roomanji, does one use 'wa'
or 'ha'?
>
> pces also wrote in message:
> >can someone point out if it worked?
> >どな ときに 「しっています」と いいますか。
>
> We spell the first word not as どな but どんな,
> except for that, it is natural and perfectly works.
Ooops.. I always seem to forgot that extra n.
It happens with minna as well. ;(
Sorry
Edmund
pces
>
> This example underlines the idea that "shiru" is closer to "find out" or
> "realize" than "know".
> Most learners first encounter the -te iru construction in the sense of
> progressive or continuous action: "Taroukun wa gohan o tabeteimasu" and so on.
> It is usually when they know only this use of the -te iru construction that
> they learn "shitte imasu/shirimasen", and so they experience a bit of a mental
> cramp with this verb that seems so unreasonable.
I believe I belong to this group. ;)
>
> Once you know that the -te iru construction can also convey the idea of
> completion, and that "shiru" is not an exact gloss of the English verb "know",
> then the whole thing makes sense.
It isn't? What other meanings does it have?
>
> Boku wa mou tabeteimasu. "I have already eaten." Here I am (imasu) after
> eating.I am in a state of having eaten. Or however you want to get your brain
> around it.
I'm having some difficulty in getting my brain around
this, but I'm beginning to understand it(which is strange,
considering I feel very confused). You mean to tell me
that even though I have already eaten ("Boku wa mou tabetemashita"),
I can still be acknowledged as _still_ being in a state of
'already eaten'? (This is mindboggling, I mean, to me, I would
have just simply stated that I've eaten and that's it. I don't
think about myself 'still' in the state of already eaten considering
that action would have passed a few minutes/hours/days ago.)
So:
"ofuro ni haitte imasu" = I am in the process of taking a shower.
"ofuro ni hairimasu" = I take a shower.
I know my translation's most likely off as I'm having trouble
grasping the grammar. (Heck, it took me awhile to figure
out the English grammar and I _know_ that I'm still having
trouble with it.)
I know there's a slight difference between the two statements,
but I just can't point it out other than the point that
the second statement does not have a 'continual time' factor
attributed to it (ie. an immediate split-second action); whereas,
the first statement has an implied 'time' factor.
If that's a correct understanding of this 'te imasu' issue,
then I'll be surprised.
Thanks for the clarifications..
Edmund
nishikawa
Prince Richard Kaminski <dobun...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:joQe3.8677$4d3....@newreader.ukcore.bt.net...
> > using roomanji, does one use 'wa'
> > or 'ha'?
>
roomaji,
> and not roomanji, or any other variant with an "n" in it. There is
no "n" in
> roomaji and never has been. In English it can be written "romaji"
> abbreviating the double o. But never with an "n".
>
> The "wa" and "ha" are up to each individual. There are various
styles of
> romanisation with different names which I can never remember, and
all of
> them do things slightly differently. Usually, you will find that
Japanese
> people romanise it as "ha" following Japanese orthography, and
foreigners do
> it as "wa" following the pronunciation. This also applies to things
like
> "zu" and "du", and "tu" and "tsu". Muchan recently wrote "tuduku"
here,
> which most gaijin would probably write "tsuzuku".
>
become more Japanese since he (Muchan is usually female name in Japan)
types by romaji-Japanese input
" tuduku = つづく 続く", while by typing "tsuzuku" you get "つずく".
Where does Hebonshiki-Romaji (ヘボン式ローマ字）come from? Japanese
passport folders are required by the law of Japan to limit the use of
Romaji to Hebonshiki-Romaji when they write their names. Therefore
such names as George, Sally, Paul, Moritz, Rolf are not available to
Japanese. Is Mr. Hebon from Holland?
nishikawa
H. Takahashi
>(snip)
> passport folders are required by the law of Japan to limit the use of
> Romaji to Hebonshiki-Romaji when they write their names. Therefore
> such names as George, Sally, Paul, Moritz, Rolf are not available to
> Japanese. Is Mr. Hebon from Holland?
>
> nishikawa
It's not Mr.Hebon. It's Mr.Hepburn from the U.S.
I wonder he has any relation to Audrey the actress.
And I was surprised to see the above("Therefore such names as George...
are not available to Japanese [passports]").
Being forced to write "Joji" instead of "George" seems terrible,doesn't
it?
Hiro Takahashi,
nishikawa
H. Takahashi <thti...@urban.ne.jp> wrote in message
news:377C3E52...@urban.ne.jp...
Oh, really ? What a great change. One can never tell that famous
Hebon (ヘボン）originates from Mr. Hepburn and he is from the U.S. As
you may know Audrey was born and brought up in Holland when very
young, and she went to U.K. for education because her father was from
U.K.
The correct and legal name for Japanese are the name registered in
Koseki. The relavant law of Japan requires the Japanese to write and
register the name in Japanese i.e. kanji, hiragana and/or katakana.
And when they will be issued a passport the reference name in romaji
must follow Hebon-shiki. So 穣治（George) should be Jyoji or something
like that of Hebon. No native speakers of English will identify any
more that it is meant to be "George". I feel freedom of expression is
somewhat distorted in this regard. I wonder how this matter stand in
U.K or the U.S.
I believe they can take any name or any sounds in the world as long as
they are expressed in alphabets.
nishikawa
Prince Richard Kaminski
nishikawa <nish...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:7lgosn$5v8$2...@news07.btx.dtag.de...
> Where does Hebonshiki-Romaji (ヘボン式ローマ字）come from? Japanese
> passport folders are required by the law of Japan to limit the use of
> Romaji to Hebonshiki-Romaji when they write their names. Therefore
> such names as George, Sally, Paul, Moritz, Rolf are not available to
> Japanese. Is Mr. Hebon from Holland?
I think Hepburn is the chap you are looking for. I know you're joking here,
but I thought the Japanese government didn't allow the use of foreign names
for Japanese people anyway. I could be wrong, but isn't there a list of
approved names or something? There was a big fuss when someone wanted to
call their child, "Akuma", I recall. I know some people choose Western
*sounding* names for their children, like "Risa" (Lisa), but would they
really be allowed to call their offspring "Frederick" or "Constantinople"?
(Not that the latter is a person's name, but it *could* be in the West).
muchan
>
> Exactly. Japanese expressed in Romaji is only reference. Muchan has
> become more Japanese since he (Muchan is usually female name in Japan)
> types by romaji-Japanese input
> " tuduku = つづく 続く", while by typing "tsuzuku" you get "つずく".
>
>
> passport folders are required by the law of Japan to limit the use of
> Romaji to Hebonshiki-Romaji when they write their names. Therefore
> such names as George, Sally, Paul, Moritz, Rolf are not available to
> Japanese. Is Mr. Hebon from Holland?
>
I don't know any female called muchan in Japan, I know some who are
called /mutchan/, where mine is /muuchan/.
I usually use pro-Hepburn romanization, (chi, tsu, shi, ji... but
not using ^ sign for long vowel, but aa, oo, ee, etc.) for Modern
Japanese. ("Ti", "tu", "si", etc. are essential words in the language
I speak here, and never pronounced as /chi/, /tsu/, /shi/, so I get
many confusion (or mind process effort) to read (pro)kunree-shiki
writing. I'd write Japanese as (slose to the way) I pronounce it.
("dzu" and "zu", "ee" and "ei", etc. are selected to indicate how
they are written, to distinguish the meaning.
For old Japanese text, I was convinced by Bart, that the kana-dzukai,
reflects the way it was pronounced before, and I use kunree-shiki
intentionaly for Old Japanese (so "kana-dukai"). I don't know where
RK found my "tuduki", I wonder it was in the context of Old Japanese.
Since I started to type JIS text with IME, which doesn't want to
understand my "oo" notation, I type "ou" for get hiragana OU, etc.,
and it may sometimes affect my <s.l.j> post romanization unconsciously.
(today, I typed "Meiji", "Shouwa" rather for convention....)
But I doubt if I typed "tuduku" for Modern Japanese context.
Origin of "Hebon-shiki Rooma-ji" is from Dutch person, in early Meiji era
-- sure Meeji (Hep) or Me^zi (KR) -- used to write Japanese "pronounciable"
to Westerners, using "sh", "ts" spelling borrowed from English.
Kunree-shiki was officially used in Japan for long, (taught in 4th grade
of primary school, I think), but now Passport is required to write in
Hepburn. My father taught me in Kunree-shiki, which he preferes, and
I got basic instruction of phonetics when I was small kid. (a little
advantage to be the son of a linguist?) Railway companies used it's own
(or non-standardized?) version of romanization for name table of stations.
Both (or all) official romanization uses "long vowel sign" attached
over vowels, which is not comfortable for ascii, plain text characteres,
so many versions of notation, like "ou" (kana transcription) "oo"
(sound transcription) "oh" (Americanism?) "o-" (Jim Breen Fep spelling)
etc., or kompletely dropped long vowel indications (like "Tokyo" or
"muchan" :)
muchan
>
>
> : > Once you know that the -te iru construction can also convey the idea of
> : > completion, and that "shiru" is not an exact gloss of the English verb "know",
> : > then the whole thing makes sense.
>
> : It isn't? What other meanings does it have?
>
> of, to (happen to) find out." (muchan pointed out that that doesn't work
> well with the negative "shiranai," which doesn't mean "I won't find out."
> I haven't seen any better solution to that problem than his "missing
> 'mada'" but since you can't just leave "mada" out whenever you feel like
> it, it probably comes down to [yuchh!] "idiom.")
>
My 2nd trial. (basically same as "mada" version, but trying to be more
through explanation):
I'd try to make a notation, neutral to English verb "to know" and
Japanese verb "shir.u".
About a given fact, anyone is either in "the state of Knowing it" or
"the state of Not-Knowing it". (*)
English "I know it." means "I'm in the state of Knowing it", and
"I don't know" means "I'm Not in the state of Knowing it", or
equals "I'm in the state of Not-Knowing it".
Japanese verb "shir.u" is the "transition" from the state of
Not-Knowing to Knowing. (*2)
So, to translate English "I know it" = "I'm in the state of Knowing",
Japanese logic says "(1) the transition already occured and (2)
I'm in the state of knowing" the (1) part is "sitte-" and (2) part
is "-iru". To translate "I don't know it" = "I'm in the state of
Not-Knowing", Japanese logic says "(1) the transition is not yet
occured (2) so I'm in the state of Not-Knowing". Instead of
using the form "shitte-i-nai", that negrect that the past transition,
Japanese verb system has "negation of present/near-future", that
the action is not yet taken. ie. negation of present tense verb
"shir.anai".
The key, here is that "present tense verb" in Japanese is used as
both (a) constant present (state) and (b) action of near future.
"shiranai" indicate "have not yet known, but maybe later".
(*1) there can be transit states like "shiri-tsutsu-aru",
"kidzuite(-wa) iru" "usu.usu kanjite-iru" etc., but for simplisity
I'd say "only two possible states" here.
(*2) Transition is usually one way. It's not common to transite from
the state of Knowing to Not-Knowing. For that, you need the "ability
to forget" and the "right to forget". :)
The verb "shir.u" indicate "the transition", and it is very important.
TT wanted to say "shitu" is used only in Proverb/maxims. I'm completely
opoosed to it. "shir.u" as present tense form is rarely (or never) used
for translation of "I know", but the verb "shir.u" in this form is used
anywhere in Japanese conversation and text whenever it indicate of
action or "transition" of Knowing. Hisashi's "kenkoo" phrase itself is
ordinary text, not special maxim format, and there is usage like
"kokumin-no shiru-kenri" (the citizen's right of knowing), or phrase
like "shiru koto nashi-ni" (without knowing it = "shiranaide"), etc.
I don't see benefit of saying "used only in proverb/maxim".
(I'm afraid that it gives impression that the verb itself is deprecated.)
One "positive" thing I found from TT is, that maybe in older Japanese,
the verb "shiru" was used also as the "state of Knowing".
Kimi siru-ya... (Do you know?) is now "kimi-wa shitte-iruka?" in
Modern Japanese. Two interpretations for that:
(1) "shiru" originally indicated "the state", too, but lost this usage
in Modern Japanese. (it's for me hard to beleive)
(2) "shiru" as Japanese word originally meant "action/transition" as
in Modern Japanese, but for the purpose of kanbun-kundoku
(Japanese reading of Chinese text), the habit of reading Chinese
"to know" as "shiru" for simplicity.
I'd buy (2) version myself. It can explain why TT thought it "only".
muchan (continue a little...)
> : So:
>
> : "ofuro ni haitte imasu" = I am in the process of taking a shower.
> : "ofuro ni hairimasu" = I take a shower.
>
> : I know my translation's most likely off as I'm having trouble
> : grasping the grammar. (Heck, it took me awhile to figure
> : out the English grammar and I _know_ that I'm still having
> : trouble with it.)
>
> Unless Japanese language/culture has changed behind my back, those are "I
> am/She is/They are in the bath(tub)/taking a bath" and "I'm going to
> take a bath/get in the bathtub" respectively. The second one could also
> mean "One takes a bath (as the normal thing to do under the contextual
> conditions)."
>
> Your English matches better with "shawaa-o abite imasu" and "(taisoo-o
> shita ato-ni itsumo 'always after exercise') shawaa-o abimasu." (Unless
> suddenly the shower has completely taken the place of the ohuro.) Notice
> your English has no tense; it suggests lots of different times.
>
There are many people who say "shawaa-ni hair.u" for taking shower,
instead of "shawaa-o abi.ru". I, amateur psychologist :), see it that
for these people, shawer is nothing more than "substitution of bath",
and so change the word from "ohuro-ni hairu".
There are some writers, translators, those who read many English
literature who say/write "shawaa-o tsuka.u" instead of "shawaa-o abiru".
Probably they feel it more "kakko-ii", but I feel they are not speaking
Japanese. :)
> Basically, VERB-te i-(ru/masu) indicates a state or action in *duration*.
> In the case of "haitte iru" it is durative *state* (I ignore an exception
> here) because "hairu" = "change from 'out' to 'in,' get in, enter" takes
> no time--either you're already in or you're not in yet at any given
> instant. If you "hairimashita" you may or may not still be "in." (When
> talking about the bath, one wouldn't normally say this unless one was
> finished, however.) If you're "haitte imasu" (present perfect *in a
> way*), you're still in.
>
> "Abiru" is a process, so "Abimashita" necessarily means you're done with
> your shower. "Abite imasu" means you're continuing the process. "Abite
> imashita" would mean you were doing it *when something else happened*.
>
> Bart
> --
> The Australians, Chinese, et. al., are clearly correct in their
> belief that south is "up." If north were "up," then the solar
> system and our galaxy would be rotating *counter*clockwise.
> What a devilish universe *that* would be! -- Buck A. Yarrow
Does anyone have a watch/clock which runs *counter*cloclwise?
Maybe in China or in Australia?
muchan
nishikawa
muchan <muc...@promikra.si> wrote in message
news:377C90B0...@promikra.si...
Haven' t you come across the name "Mutsuko = 睦子” before, e.g. 三木
睦子 さん. A few women have such a name in Japan and it becomes
usually "Muchan = むっちゃん" by nickname.
nishikawa
Jim Breen
>>It's not Mr.Hebon. It's Mr.Hepburn from the U.S.
Well, actually it was the Reverend Dr J. C. Hepburn. As well as being a
medico and a missionary he found time for a spot of lexicography too.
--
Jim Breen School of Computer Science & Software Engineering
Email: j.b...@csse.monash.edu.au Monash University
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/ Clayton VIC 3168 Australia
P: +61 3 9905 3298 F: 9905 3574 ジム・ブリーン@モナシュ大学
Mark Bradford
> Bart wrote:
> > The Australians, Chinese, et. al., are clearly correct in their
> > belief that south is "up." If north were "up," then the solar
> > system and our galaxy would be rotating *counter*clockwise.
> > What a devilish universe *that* would be! -- Buck A. Yarrow
> Does anyone have a watch/clock which runs *counter*cloclwise?
> Maybe in China or in Australia?
I have seen several such clocks, but all as jokes, in the vein of "<ethnic
group or person whom you wish to disparage>'s clock", meant to suggest
that some person or group is so stupid that they think clocks go
counterclockwise. (The canonical example in my family is called,
translated from Afrikaans, "The Genuine Van der Merwe Clock".)
-- Mark Bradford (dino...@uswest.net) <> To err is human, to moo bovine.
"It is good to have an open mind, but not at both ends."
Fabian
> The correct and legal name for Japanese are the name registered in
> Koseki. The relavant law of Japan requires the Japanese to write and
> register the name in Japanese i.e. kanji, hiragana and/or katakana.
> And when they will be issued a passport the reference name in romaji
> must follow Hebon-shiki. So 穣治（George) should be Jyoji or something
> like that of Hebon. No native speakers of English will identify any
> more that it is meant to be "George". I feel freedom of expression is
> somewhat distorted in this regard. I wonder how this matter stand in
> U.K or the U.S.
> I believe they can take any name or any sounds in the world as long as
> they are expressed in alphabets.
In Britain, there only requirement is that a name be written using the
Roman alphabet, and have at least one vowel in there. Szczwch, while
extremely popular in Poland, could not be used here.
There isn't even a requirement that the spelling even vaguely resemble
pronunciation, such as the Featherstonehaughs (pronounced 'fanshaw'). In
addition, parents can infliuct almost any name on their children, who
are equally free to change it to anything once they hit 18 years of age.
I heard a rumour once that immigrants to the USA often had their names
'anglicized' to something more pronounceable to the US administrivia.
---
Heibyan
Rule One: Question the unquestionable,
ask the unaskable, eff the ineffable,
think the unthinkable, and screw the inscrutable.
Gerald B Mathias
: The Australians, Chinese, et. al., are clearly correct in their
: belief that south is "up." If north were "up," then the solar
: system and our galaxy would be rotating *counter*clockwise.
I've had enough of this crap.
First, if you look at the stars some night you'll see that the solar
system's south pole ("up") is just barely south of the galactic equator
(roughly, the Milky Way). We're tilted way over (unless you want to claim
it's our galaxy that is tilted--what kind of universe would *that* be?).
Second, try this experiment. Some time in the next few weeks, lie on
your back at the south pole. As you and the earth beneath you turn
clockwise, the sky above will seem to rotate counter-clockwise. Wait six
months, then do the same at the north pole. Now the sky goes clockwise.
What's wrong with that? I think it makes an arguable case for north being
up. (*Important*: Wear warm clothing, and DO NOT try this standing up!)
I'm not sure how ancient Chinese clocks worked, but it is clear that the
people thought clockwise: thus, ushitora is north-east and not north-west
(why they started that circle at the bottom--ne = north--is another
question). They figured south was up because that was the direction the
sun was in. The only excuse the Australians have is they think they're on
top of the world. But from where I sit, Sydney and Ayers Rock (not the
politically correct name), not to mention Tasmania, are all below the
horizon. In other words, DOWN!
And I hope this will be the last we'll hear on this subject.
Bart
Gerald B Mathias
: The "wa" and "ha" are up to each individual. There are various styles of
: romanisation with different names which I can never remember, and all of
: them do things slightly differently. Usually, you will find that Japanese
: people romanise it as "ha" following Japanese orthography, and foreigners do
: it as "wa" following the pronunciation. This also applies to things like
: "zu" and "du", and "tu" and "tsu". Muchan recently wrote "tuduku" here,
: which most gaijin would probably write "tsuzuku".
I think you'll find muchan usually goes with pronunciation, and "tuduku"
is not really an exception. That is, ignoring some new syllables that
occur in very cosmopolitan Japanese, especially with younger speakers, the
*Japanese* pronunciation of "tu" is [tsu] (wrong vowel, but I can't do a
"barred 'i'" on this computer) and "du" is [dzu].
Most people, Japanese and foreign, tend to do what works in a waapuro
these days dyaanaideseuka.
Bart
Gerald B Mathias
: (*2) Transition is usually one way. It's not common to transite from
: to forget" and the "right to forget". :)
For me it has become a quite common transition, known as "wasureru."
<ookina tameiki>--wasureru kenri-ka...
Bart
pces
> pces <pc...@netfront.net> wrote in message
> news:377B9645...@netfront.net...
> > Btw, I noticed you used 'ha'. When
> > using roomanji, does one use 'wa'
> > or 'ha'?
>
> My turn at the windmill. First of all, and most importantly, it's roomaji,
> and not roomanji, or any other variant with an "n" in it. There is no "n" in
> roomaji and never has been. In English it can be written "romaji"
> abbreviating the double o. But never with an "n".
I must be a baffoon. I'm adding n's where n's ought not to be, and I'm
missing n's where n's should be. My humblest apologies for this mistake.
I suppose my mistake stemmed from me keeping on thinking of 'romanizing'
words. Again.. my apologies..
> The "wa" and "ha" are up to each individual. There are various styles of
> romanisation with different names which I can never remember, and all of
> them do things slightly differently. Usually, you will find that Japanese
> people romanise it as "ha" following Japanese orthography, and foreigners do
> it as "wa" following the pronunciation. This also applies to things like
> "zu" and "du", and "tu" and "tsu". Muchan recently wrote "tuduku" here,
> which most gaijin would probably write "tsuzuku".
Thanks for the clarifications and help... I really appreciate it.
Edmund
Hisashi FUKUI
and I agree with the argument about the difference between
Japanese "shiru" and English "know". But I think there still
remains a problem.
As muchan indicated before, the point is the mismatch in tense
of the "shiru" usages. He tried to explain the phenomenon by
a general present tense theory of Japanese language. But I
can't agree that because the verb "shiru" apparently behaves
differently from the other verbs.
Here are three usages in different tenses of ordinary verb
"okiru". You will find out that each negative sentence has
the same tense as the positive one:
Taro ha okite imasu ka?
-- Okite imasu.
-- Okite imasen.
Kesa 6 ji goro okite imashita ka?
-- Okite imashita.
-- Okite imasen deshita.
Denwa ga natta toki sugu okimashita ka?
-- Sugu okimashita.
-- Sugu niha okimasen deshita.
But in the case of "shiru" it does not:
Jiken no koto ha shitte imasu ka?
-- Shitte imasu.
-- Shirimasen.
("Shitte imasen" is impossible.)
Mae kara shitte imashita ka?
-- Shitte imashita.
-- Shirimasen deshita.
("Shitte imasen deshita" is impossible.)
Jiken ha Shinbun de shiri mashita ka?
-- Shinbun de shiri mashita.
-- Shinbun de shitta no deha arimasen.
("Shinbun deha shirimasen deshita" is impossible.)
I can't say WHY for the moment. It's a mistery.
I'd like to point out another factor of the problem whether
"shiru" is used only in proverb/maxim or not. Of course my "kenkou"
phrase is not in a special maxim form, and, as muchan pointed
out, usages like "shiru-kenri" etc. are mostly common in written
or spoken Japanese. But when it comes to the conclusive
sentence which ends with "shiru/shirimasu" (and not followed by any
auxilliary verbs etc.), examples are so rare that one feels as if
it would be an old usage.
I think the verb "shiru" can often be replaced by "shiru koto ga
dekiru" or "wakaru" and we do so. In fact "kenkou no arigatasa wo
shiru koto ga dekimasu" or "kenkou no arigatasa ga wakarimasu" is
far more common than "kenkou no arigatasa wo shirimasu" in
conversation. This is partly because that "shiru koto ga dekiru"
or "wakaru" is a more flexible expression than "shiru".
The following example will show that point.
-- Taro-san no denwa bangou shitte imasu ka?
-- Shirimasen. Demo shirabereba wakarimasu.
("Shirabereba shiru koto ga dekimasu" is possible but rare.
"Shirabereba shirimasu" is impossible.)
Why "shirabereba shirimasu" is impossible? That's another mistery.
Hisashi
Jim Breen
>>muchan wrote:
>>> Bart wrote:
>>> > The Australians, Chinese, et. al., are clearly correct in their
>>> > belief that south is "up." If north were "up," then the solar
>>> > system and our galaxy would be rotating *counter*clockwise.
>>> > What a devilish universe *that* would be! -- Buck A. Yarrow
>>> Does anyone have a watch/clock which runs *counter*cloclwise?
>>> Maybe in China or in Australia?
>>I have seen several such clocks, but all as jokes, .......
In the days of rotary telephone dials, the numbers on 'phones in
New Zealand went round the other way. Felt a bit wierd when you weren't used to it.
Jim Breen
>>The only excuse the Australians have is they think they're on
>>top of the world. But from where I sit, Sydney and Ayers Rock (not the
>>politically correct name), not to mention Tasmania, are all below the
>>horizon. In other words, DOWN!
What an amazing coincidence! From where I sit, Hawaii is below the horizon.
In other words, DOWN!
On a slightly more serious note, I don't give a hoot about what is "up" or
"down", and if Northern Hemispherians feel happier regarding themselves
as on top, well who am I to stand in the way of greater human happiness
(after all, there are more of them than us.)
I do get peeved, however, when people refer to us as "the Antipodes" in
such a way that we are expected to use the label on ourselves. This
use of "the Antipodes" is a very Eurocentric thing; after all it would be
inaccurate to use it in Japan or the US. Every part of the earth is
opposite some other part, and we are no more "THE Antipodes" than the
denizens of Tooting Bec, Rio de Janiero or Vladivostok.
Prince Richard Kaminski
> I must be a baffoon. I'm adding n's where n's ought not to be, and I'm
> missing n's where n's should be. My humblest apologies for this mistake.
> I suppose my mistake stemmed from me keeping on thinking of 'romanizing'
> words. Again.. my apologies..
No need to apologise, and you're certainly not a buffoon. The "romanji"
thing is the most common mistake anyone around here has ever seen, and it
seems every man and his dog has been guilty of it at one time or another. No
need to chastise yourself over it!
nishikawa
Gerald B Mathias <mat...@Hawaii.Edu> wrote in message
news:7ljbgi$a...@news.Hawaii.Edu...> : The "wa" and "ha" are up to each individual. There are various
styles of
> : romanisation with different names which I can never remember, and
all of
> : them do things slightly differently. Usually, you will find that
Japanese
> : people romanise it as "ha" following Japanese orthography, and
foreigners do
> : it as "wa" following the pronunciation. This also applies to
things like
> : "zu" and "du", and "tu" and "tsu". Muchan recently wrote "tuduku"
here,
> : which most gaijin would probably write "tsuzuku".
>
"tuduku"
> is not really an exception. That is, ignoring some new syllables
that
> occur in very cosmopolitan Japanese, especially with younger
speakers, the
> *Japanese* pronunciation of "tu" is [tsu] (wrong vowel, but I can't
do a
> "barred 'i'" on this computer) and "du" is [dzu].
>
> Most people, Japanese and foreign, tend to do what works in a
waapuro
> these days dyaanaideseuka.
>
> Bart
for typing Japanese in romaji. It has already various influence from
the languages I use. On a similar matter, have you ever noticed that
even the spelling using hiragana is *dynamic* and varies from the
generation or the district where you live. The famous one of such
example is;
jyu-ko 十個
じゅっこ ( seems younger people and people in Tokyo support this one.)
じっこ （seems traditional people and NHK support assert this one is
correct, but seems not to be accepted in Tokyo)
nishikawa
nishikawa
Hisashi FUKUI <hfu...@pop06.odn.ne.jp> wrote in message
news:7ljq38$s5r$1...@newsgw8.odn.ne.jp...
e.g. sonnakotowo sureba osatoga siremasuyo. そんなことをすればお里が
知れますよ。douse takaga shi-re-te-iru. どうせたかが知れている。
nishikawa
Jim Breen
>> On a similar matter, have you ever noticed that
>>even the spelling using hiragana is *dynamic* and varies from the
>>generation or the district where you live. The famous one of such
>>example is;
>>jyu-ko 十個
>>じゅっこ ( seems younger people and people in Tokyo support this one.)
>>じっこ （seems traditional people and NHK support assert this one is
>>correct, but seems not to be accepted in Tokyo)
But surely this is a case of the pronunciation changing rather than the
spelling? (although Japanese, unlike English, is in the happy state of
having a tight relationship between the two).
Apropos of 十個, my dictionaries say じっこ, but my 変換 files give
a choice between じゅっこ & じっこ.
Annie
<j...@nexus.dgs.monash.edu.au> wrote:
> nishikawa <nish...@t-online.de> wrote:
> >>jyu-ko 十個
> >>じゅっこ ( seems younger people and people in Tokyo support this one.)
> >>じっこ （seems traditional people and NHK support assert this one is
> >>correct, but seems not to be accepted in Tokyo)
>
> But surely this is a case of the pronunciation changing rather than the
> spelling? (although Japanese, unlike English, is in the happy state of
> having a tight relationship between the two).
>
> Apropos of 十個, my dictionaries say じっこ, but my 変換 files give
> a choice between じゅっこ & じっこ.
>
'juu'十 was spelled originally 'jifu'. Therefore it _should_ be spelled an
d pronounced 'jit-' when assimilated.
I _know_ 'jikko' is correct, but I _pronounce_ 'jukko'.
When write, I _spell_ '十個' in kanji. The hiragana or katakana writing is
rare.
Though historically 'jikko' is correct, many people pronounce 'jukko' and
have no doubt that is is 'jukko'.
--
Annie
<ann...@gol.com>
Frederic Faure
wrote:
>I do get peeved, however, when people refer to us as "the Antipodes" in
>such a way that we are expected to use the label on ourselves. This
>use of "the Antipodes" is a very Eurocentric thing; after all it would be
>inaccurate to use it in Japan or the US. Every part of the earth is
>opposite some other part, and we are no more "THE Antipodes" than the
>denizens of Tooting Bec, Rio de Janiero or Vladivostok.
Far East...
FF.
--
The system required Windows 95 or better, so I installed Linux!
Prince Richard Kaminski
Ben Bullock <b...@hayamasa.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
Mike Wright wrote:
> > IMNSHO, it should depend on whether you are stressing the
> > pronunciation (wa) or transcribing written Japanese (ha). It's
> > becoming obvious that the very first item in every FAQ should simply
> > be:
>
> > 1. ROMAJI, ROMAJI, ROMAJI!!!
>
> It's not going to be in my FAQ because I don't really care about it.
That's the whole point about you not being an appropriate person to be in
control of the official SLJ FAQ. You don't care about it, so it doesn't go
in. It doesn't matter that countless people get the wrong idea about this
word from somewhere, you don't want to help them, because you "don't really
care about it". Just the same as you "don't really care about" the plural
form of "kanji" which the overwhelming majority (all?) of scholars of
Japanese consider should be "kanji" and not "kanjis" as you so stubbornly
insist.
Quite simply, you don't care about others' views, but only about your own,
which is why your FAQ remains an ego FAQ and not the official one of SLJ.
Gerald B Mathias
: nishikawa <nish...@t-online.de> wrote:
: >> On a similar matter, have you ever noticed that
: >>even the spelling using hiragana is *dynamic* and varies from the
: >>generation or the district where you live. The famous one of such
: >>example is;
: >>jyu-ko 十個
: >>じゅっこ ( seems younger people and people in Tokyo support this one.)
: >>じっこ （seems traditional people and NHK support assert this one is
: >>correct, but seems not to be accepted in Tokyo)
: But surely this is a case of the pronunciation changing rather than the
: spelling? (although Japanese, unlike English, is in the happy state of
: having a tight relationship between the two).
Unless I'm making up false memories again, there was a stage where people
said jitt..., jikk..., and jiss..., but jupp... (In any event, that's
where I am now, from a beginning with all ji.....)
Bart
Jim Breen
>>Jim Breen <j...@nexus.dgs.monash.edu.au> wrote:
>>> I do get peeved, however, when people refer to us as "the Antipodes" in
[snip]
>>What's the use of complaining that the English language is
>>Eurocentric? You might as well complain that the Japanese language is
>>Japan-centric.
Well, since most English-speakers don't live in Europe (and if the
UK's Euro-septics have their way, almost none will), some of us do our
mite to internationalize the language.
>>It's not our fault if all you foreigners want to use our language;
>>you'll have to accept it the way it is, or else speak Dutch or
>>something.
Hmmm. Now I'm *very* tempted to say that it's as much my language as
it is Ben's; that my ancestors have probably spoken it for much the same
period as his; and that the fact that my forebears left the UK in the
mid-1800s and moved to another English-speaking country makes not a whit
of difference in the matter of proprietorship over the language.
However, I suspect that would be just the sort of rise Ben was hoping for,
so I won't say it after all.
Don Kirkman
<7lj9ol$2nss$6...@quince.news.easynet.net>:
I don't think it's mere rumor, though it may not be exactly as you
understood it. Name changes were common, but for several reasons, most
not having anything direct to do with administrative influence.
1> Many 18th and 19th century immigrants were illiterate and may not
have had a canonical spelling of their own names
2> Many customs and immigration clerks were (nearly) illiterate and
misspelled immigrants' names, either from not knowing the correct
spelling or from being unable to transcribe names spoken by immigrants
(whether Polish or Chinese or whatever)
3> Some immigrants deliberately anglicized their names so that the
Battenbergs became Mountbattens and the Schmidts became Smiths
By way of example, I knew of a family named Hiratzka, which looks to me
like a swell Polish name, in the San Francisco area. It turned out they
were ethnic Japanese and had deliberately adopted that spelling.
--
Don
Fabian
> Prince Richard Kaminski <dobun...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> I must be a baffoon. I'm adding n's where n's ought not to be, and
I'm
> >> missing n's where n's should be. My humblest apologies for this
mistake.
> >> I suppose my mistake stemmed from me keeping on thinking of
'romanizing'
> >> words. Again.. my apologies..
>
> > No need to apologise, and you're certainly not a buffoon.
>
> Certainly not! Kaminski is the only buffoon allowed on this
> newsgroup! How dare you try to usurp him?
Mr Pot, meet Mr Kettle.
Jim Breen
>>3> Some immigrants deliberately anglicized their names so that the
>>Battenbergs became Mountbattens and the Schmidts became Smiths
Did you Merkins get an influx of Battenbergs too? I thought it was
just the Poms. (My Dean's name is `Rosenberg', and the admin low-life
keeps typing it as `Rosenburg'. I'm trying to convince him to change it
to `Mountrosen'. 8-)} )
Prince Richard Kaminski
Fabian wrote:
>In Britain, there only requirement is that a name be written using the
> Roman alphabet, and have at least one vowel in there. Szczwch, while
> extremely popular in Poland, could not be used here.
Even Polish has to have *one* vowel in there! Stick in a 'y' if you like, it's a
vowel in Polish, but it might look like you're proving your theory.
>
> There isn't even a requirement that the spelling even vaguely resemble
> pronunciation, such as the Featherstonehaughs (pronounced 'fanshaw').
Can you imagine what fun people have giving that name over the phone? Another one
is Tagliaferro, which I believe is pronounced something like Tollifer (or was it
Tolliver?).
Doug Wickstrom
<dobun...@hotmail.com> excited the ether to say:
Talliaferro, pronounced Tolliver. I once had a Colonel of that
name.
--
Doug Wickstrom
"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."
--Albert Einstein
Doug Wickstrom
<j...@nexus.dgs.monash.edu.au> excited the ether to say:
>Don Kirkman <new...@abac.com> wrote:
>
>>>3> Some immigrants deliberately anglicized their names so that the
>>>Battenbergs became Mountbattens and the Schmidts became Smiths
>
>Did you Merkins get an influx of Battenbergs too? I thought it was
>just the Poms. (My Dean's name is `Rosenberg', and the admin low-life
>keeps typing it as `Rosenburg'. I'm trying to convince him to change it
>to `Mountrosen'. 8-)} )
Not "Montrose"?
--
Doug Wickstrom
"I've been criticized for doing more than one thing at once...Would it
be nice if you could pay your bills and not earn any money to them? I
don't understand this whole--you can't do one thing at once. But
anyway, that's what they say." --Bill Clinton
Doug Wickstrom
Kirkman) excited the ether to say:
>
>I don't think it's mere rumor, though it may not be exactly as you
>understood it. Name changes were common, but for several reasons, most
>not having anything direct to do with administrative influence.
>
>1> Many 18th and 19th century immigrants were illiterate and may not
>have had a canonical spelling of their own names
>
>2> Many customs and immigration clerks were (nearly) illiterate and
>misspelled immigrants' names, either from not knowing the correct
>spelling or from being unable to transcribe names spoken by immigrants
>(whether Polish or Chinese or whatever)
Which is how Swedish "Olsson" becomes American "Olson."
>3> Some immigrants deliberately anglicized their names so that the
>Battenbergs became Mountbattens and the Schmidts became Smiths
4. There were too many Olsons that day, so it was strongly
suggested that the immigrant choose something else, which is how
I come to have cousins named "Lindell."
--
Doug Wickstrom
I have a fatal disease. I'm alive.
Fabian
> It's not our fault if all you foreigners want to use our language;
> you'll have to accept it the way it is, or else speak Dutch or
> something.
I think it is more a case of English speakers wanting Johnny Foreigner
to learn their language.
Don Kirkman
<7lmdue$lq5$1...@towncrier.cc.monash.edu.au>:
>Don Kirkman <new...@abac.com> wrote:
>>>3> Some immigrants deliberately anglicized their names so that the
>>>Battenbergs became Mountbattens and the Schmidts became Smiths
>Did you Merkins get an influx of Battenbergs too? I thought it was
>just the Poms. (My Dean's name is `Rosenberg', and the admin low-life
>keeps typing it as `Rosenburg'. I'm trying to convince him to change it
>to `Mountrosen'. 8-)} )
No, I was just shooting for a Euro example to draw my readers in. :-)
--
Don
Don Kirkman
<377e6ed1...@news.club-internet.fr>:
>On 3 Jul 1999 05:03:02 GMT, Jim Breen <j...@nexus.dgs.monash.edu.au>
>wrote:
>>I do get peeved, however, when people refer to us as "the Antipodes" in
>>such a way that we are expected to use the label on ourselves. This
>>use of "the Antipodes" is a very Eurocentric thing; after all it would be
>>inaccurate to use it in Japan or the US. Every part of the earth is
>>opposite some other part, and we are no more "THE Antipodes" than the
>>denizens of Tooting Bec, Rio de Janiero or Vladivostok.
> In the same vein, how long will the world keep refering to the
>Far East...
We USians have exactly the same problem, especially those of us in the
*Far West*, knowing that the American West lies somewhere east of the
Rocky Mountains in the Mississippi Valley, a thousand miles east of us.
Ain't geography a b****?
--
Don
Sean Holland
>
> Unless I'm making up false memories again, there was a stage where people
> said jitt..., jikk..., and jiss..., but jupp... (In any event, that's
> where I am now, from a beginning with all ji.....)
>
Was it not Sam Clemens who said something like "This talk of memory getting
worse with age is bunk. My memory's been getting better and better. It's so
good, in fact, that now I remember things that didn't even happen."
yuxuan
> As muchan indicated before, the point is the mismatch in tense
> of the "shiru" usages. He tried to explain the phenomenon by
> a general present tense theory of Japanese language. But I
> can't agree that because the verb "shiru" apparently behaves
> differently from the other verbs.
[examples snipped]
> I can't say WHY for the moment. It's a mistery.
I don't have THE ANSWER, but I can guess where the answer might be
found. Bart has aluded (sp?) to it but I'll try to be a _little_ more
specific.
All verbs are not created equal. They can be divided into different
classes, which effects, among other things, whether location is marked
by 'ni' or 'de' (another s.l.j favourite), and how the '-te iru' form
is interpreted.
For instance, verbs can be 'punctual', 'procedural' or 'stative'.
There are probably other useful categories, and there are almost
certainly border-line cases.
But if 'shiru' belongs to a different class of verbs than 'okiru' etc,
then the comparison might not be very useful.
One _possibly_ important difference is that 'shiru' is pyschological
and the others are physical. In English, the distinction is important
anyway.
For example (present continuous, unmarked, normal register),
Pyschological:
"I know my three times table" NOT "I am knowing..."
"I imagine the situation will improve" NOT "I am imagining..."
('Verbal' verbs follow this pattern too).
Material (physical):
"He is eating natto." NOT "He eats..."
"He is running" etc etc.
[Note: "he eats.." is grammatical, it's just not present continuous, at
least not usually. The alternatives sometimes DO occur, but only in
special 'marked' situations. Sports commentary is a good one: "X
passes to Y. He shoots." ]
Anyway, the whole psychological/ material contrast might be completely
irrelevant as far as Japanese goes. I don't have a native speaker to
quiz right now, so I'm reluctant to draw any conclusions...
John
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
muchan
>
> I _know_ 'jikko' is correct, but I _pronounce_ 'jukko'.
> When write, I _spell_ '十個' in kanji. The hiragana or katakana writing is
> rare.
>
> Though historically 'jikko' is correct, many people pronounce 'jukko' and
> have no doubt that is is 'jukko'.
>
What Annie wrote is almost identical to what I'd write:
: I _know_ 'jikko' is correct, but I _pronounce_ 'jukko'.
: When write, I _spell_ '十個' in kanji. The hiragana or katakana writing
is
: rare.
:
: Though historically 'jikko' is correct, many people pronounce 'jukko' and
: have no doubt that is is 'jukko'.
:
:)
How about 十手 /jutte/? (of Zenigata Heiji) /jitte/ is correct?
I wonder about 全員? I say /zeiin/ or almost /zeein/ not /zen'in/,
which is not very easy/comfortable to say.
muchan
muchan
Not related at all, but one I just read somewhere:
"I attended a course of fast reading and learned to read the lines,
with eyes moving down at the center of the page. At the end of
the course, I could read "War and Piece" in 4 minutes. I know it
happened in Russia."
muchan
Annie
wrote:
> Annie wrote:
> >
> : Though historically 'jikko' is correct, many people pronounce 'jukko'
and
> : have no doubt that is is 'jukko'.
> :
> :)
>
> How about 十手 /jutte/? (of Zenigata Heiji) /jitte/ is correct?
>
/Jitte/ is correct.
十指 jisshi
十中八九 jicchuu-hakku
十戒 jikkai
> I wonder about 全員? I say /zeiin/ or almost /zeein/ not /zen'in/,
> which is not very easy/comfortable to say.
I intend to say /zen'in/ but I don't know it _sounds_ /zen'in/.
Japanese /n/ is not always English /n/. It includes all the nasals;
bilabial/n/, alveolar/m/, velar/...(How to write the middle consonant of
'singer'? I'll write it /ng/.)
IMHO, Japanese /n/ of 全員 has little difference with English /ng/. But th
e closure in the mouth between the tongue and the velum is looser than
English /ng/ for the air to pass also through the mouth. Hence it sounds
like /zeiin/ or /zeein/.
--
Annie
<ann...@gol.com>
Gerald B Mathias
: Japanese /n/ is not always English /n/. It includes all the nasals;
: bilabial/n/, alveolar/m/, velar/...(How to write the middle consonant of
: 'singer'? I'll write it /ng/.)
: IMHO, Japanese /n/ of 全員 has little difference with English /ng/. But th
: e closure in the mouth between the tongue and the velum is looser than
: English /ng/ for the air to pass also through the mouth.
Which makes it a (nasal) *vowel*. /N/ takes the position of the speech
organs of the following sound (articulatory assimilation, but one of the
things I never could remember even before become senior is whether
assimilating to what follows is "progressive" or "regressive").
If what follows is a vowel, there is often an upward-downward glide, so
that (to foreigners, at least) "sen'en" often sounds like it has a "y" in
the middle, and "hon-o" like it has a "w."
If nothing follows (end of utterance), apparently the careful
pronunciation is back of tongue to uvula (I'm not sure I can do this), but
it doesn't really matter, and I have heard many clear examples of
"arimaseng," "arimasem," "arimasen" (with a real alveolar "n"), as well as
(what I think is most common) "arimase~."
Bart
muchan
> >
>
> /Jitte/ is correct.
> 十指 jisshi
> 十中八九 jicchuu-hakku
> 十戒 jikkai
>
Thank you. Thus I confirmed I'm not saying correctly. :)
> > I wonder about 全員? I say /zeiin/ or almost /zeein/ not /zen'in/,
> > which is not very easy/comfortable to say.
>
> I intend to say /zen'in/ but I don't know it _sounds_ /zen'in/.
>
I think I consciously thinking like /zeein/. ("8ji-dayo, zeein shuugoo!")
Even thinking to write this way if I ever need to put hurigana.
(but IME didn't changed it, so I learned /zen in/ in correct.
Probably im my case saying/thinking as /zeein/ but make slightly nasal,
because of subconscious of the kanji /zen/... so kind of /ze'in/ or
/ze*ng*in/... Thus I confirmed I'm not saying correctly.
muchan
Hisashi FUKUI
nishikawa wrote in message <7lkhjm$bic$1...@news00.btx.dtag.de>...
>shirabereba shi-re-masu. 調べれば知れます。
>e.g. sonnakotowo sureba osatoga siremasuyo. そんなことをすればお里が
>知れますよ。douse takaga shi-re-te-iru. どうせたかが知れている。
I believe we don't say "shirabereba shi-re-masu"
unless we are joking.
Though most dictionaries say "shireru" means "to be
able to get to know", we hardly use the verb as this
meaning except a few idioms like those examples
nisikawa has mentioned as e.g. (The "...kamo shirenai"
construction may be the most common among those
using this verb.)
"Shireru" has another meaning "to be known" in the
form of "...ni shireru", often with a negative implication.
This usage may be more useful and worth memorizing
than that used in a mere joking situation.
Hisashi
Annie
> nishikawa wrote in message <7lkhjm$bic$1...@news00.btx.dtag.de>...
> >shirabereba shi-re-masu. 調べれば知れます。
> >e.g. sonnakotowo sureba osatoga siremasuyo.
> >そんなことをすればお里が 知れますよ。douse takaga
> >shi-re-te-iru. どうせたかが知れている。
>
>
> I believe we don't say "shirabereba shi-re-masu"
> unless we are joking.
In the standard Japanese, Tokyo dialect and the Kansai dialect, we don't
say "shirabereba shiremasu."
I don't know other dialects.
But, I guess it would be possible in some dialects because '-(r)eru' has
a meaning that "possible". it would be logically possible to say
"shir-eru" in the meaning of "be able to know" same as
"hashir-eru"(hashiru+eru), "ik-eru"(iku+eru), "hakob-eru"(hakobu+eru),
though I don't say, too....
--
Annie
<ann...@gol.com>
nishikawa
muchan <muc...@promikra.si> wrote in message
news:3781E60D...@promikra.si...
Very good!!! How come you all in this thread so smart? BTW the biggest
difference in sounds between English and Japanese are "R アール" and
"L エル", and vowels. I've been long tempted to make this question. Do
you try to pronounce these sounds like Japanese do when you speak
Japanese. I mean e.g. when you speak you don't really differenciate R
from L like Japanese?
nishikawa
muchan
>
> > >shirabereba shi-re-masu. 調べれば知れます。
> >
> > I believe we don't say "shirabereba shi-re-masu"
> > unless we are joking.
>
> In the standard Japanese, Tokyo dialect and the Kansai dialect, we don't
> say "shirabereba shiremasu."
> I don't know other dialects.
>
> But, I guess it would be possible in some dialects because '-(r)eru' has
> a meaning that "possible". it would be logically possible to say
> "shir-eru" in the meaning of "be able to know" same as
> "hashir-eru"(hashiru+eru), "ik-eru"(iku+eru), "hakob-eru"(hakobu+eru),
> though I don't say, too....
>
> --
> Annie
> <ann...@gol.com>
uuum, "shir-eru" as "shiru koto-ga dekiru"?
Reading rest of samples, "shireru" has rather voluntary/passive/impersonal
nuance, like "mieru" from "miru". but...
I can't explain it well.
muchan
Jim Breen
>> BTW the biggest
>>difference in sounds between English and Japanese are "R アール" and
>>"L エル", and vowels. I've been long tempted to make this question. Do
>>you try to pronounce these sounds like Japanese do when you speak
>>Japanese. I mean e.g. when you speak you don't really differenciate R
>>from L like Japanese?
When I was a student, our teachers started off having us pronounce
ら, り, る, れ, ろ, etc. as though they were the English "r", then gradually
tried to nudge the more serious students towards the proper Japanese
pronunciation. I try, probably not very effectively, to make the right
sound in Japanese. My wife said once that it sounded to her as though I was
saying "alingatou".
Philip Brown
>...
>Hmmm. Now I'm *very* tempted to say that it's as much my language as
>it is Ben's; that my ancestors have probably spoken it for much the same
>period as his; and that the fact that my forebears left the UK in the
>mid-1800s and moved to another English-speaking country makes not a whit
>of difference in the matter of proprietorship over the language.
On the contrary. You auzzies speak the Queen's English FAR better ;-)
--
[Trim the no-bots from my address to reply to me by email!]
[ Do NOT email-CC me on posts. Pick one or the other.]
--------------------------------------------------
The word of the day is mispergitude
Philip Brown
>....
>On a slightly more serious note, I don't give a hoot about what is "up" or
>"down", and if Northern Hemispherians feel happier regarding themselves
>as on top, well who am I to stand in the way of greater human happiness
>(after all, there are more of them than us.)
>
>I do get peeved, however, when people refer to us as "the Antipodes" in
>such a way that we are expected to use the label on ourselves. This
>use of "the Antipodes" is a very Eurocentric thing; after all it would be
>inaccurate to use it in Japan or the US.
I always thought it was relating to nearness to "the other pole", similar
to being a synonym for "southern hemisphere"
[okay, not japan, but still in the realm of sci.lang ;-)]
Christopher Schmidt
> said jitt..., jikk..., and jiss..., but jupp... (In any event, that's
> where I am now, from a beginning with all ji.....)
>
Yep, what about "ten minutes"? What is correct, /juppun/ or /jippun? I
remember having had a quarrel with a teacher at Japanese School over this
issue, she insisted on /jippun/, but I and the other students kept saying
/juppun/.
Chris
Annie
> Annie wrote:
> >
> > > >shirabereba shi-re-masu. 調べれば知れます。
> > But, I guess it would be possible in some dialects because '-(r)eru' has
> > a meaning that "possible". it would be logically possible to say
> > "shir-eru" in the meaning of "be able to know" same as
> > "hashir-eru"(hashiru+eru), "ik-eru"(iku+eru), "hakob-eru"(hakobu+eru),
> > though I don't say, too....
> >
>
> uuum, "shir-eru" as "shiru koto-ga dekiru"?
>
> Reading rest of samples, "shireru" has rather voluntary/passive/impersonal
> nuance, like "mieru" from "miru". but...
>
> I can't explain it well.
In Japanese grammatical terms, it is called 'jihatsu', I think.
In my usage and the standard Japanese, "shireru" has 'jihatsu' meaning.
What I wanted to say in my previous post is that if a native speaker of
Japanese says "shirabereba shi-re-masu." is acceptable, I can believe it
should be acceptable for him/her in his/her dialects, though I dou't
know if Nishikawa is a native speaker or not.
--
Annie
<ann...@gol.com>
Annie
>
> Yep, what about "ten minutes"? What is correct, /juppun/ or /jippun? I
> remember having had a quarrel with a teacher at Japanese School over this
> issue, she insisted on /jippun/, but I and the other students kept saying
> /juppun/.
>
/jippun/ is _correct_.
--
Annie
<ann...@gol.com>
nishikawa
Annie <ann...@gol.com> wrote in message
news:1dumh3n.1q1...@tc-1-231.kyoto.gol.ne.jp...
Yes I am a native speaker of Japanese. I'm not sure if this usage of
the verbs is called 'jihatsu'. What I wanted to confirm is that the
verb "siru 知る" can also be used by grammer or by logic in the same
way as other verbs.
tabe-reru 食べれる このキノコは食べれる。
oki-reru 起きれる 私は朝早く起きれる。
hashi-reru 走れる 早く走れる車。
shi-reru 知れる 君、そんな話はすぐにウソと知れるさ。
警察が本気で調べればすぐに犯人は
君だと知れるさ。
nishikawa
muchan
nishikawa wrote:
>
>
> Very good!!! How come you all in this thread so smart? BTW the biggest
> difference in sounds between English and Japanese are "R アール" and
> "L エル", and vowels. I've been long tempted to make this question. Do
> you try to pronounce these sounds like Japanese do when you speak
> Japanese. I mean e.g. when you speak you don't really differenciate R
> from L like Japanese?
>
Chapter one of UN charter says:
Everybody has a right to speak with her own accent. (*1)
and I'd add it:
In the range of being properly understood. (*2)
I think Japanese ear is completely "tolerant" of the differnce of R
and L, and so doesn't require foreigners to speak /r/ as Japanese
native speakers do. (maybe French, and Brasilian, and some southern
Austrian and Slovenian Korosci -- with Koernten accent -- should
consciously say 'l' rather than 'r' to be understood properly.)
In other words:
It's easier
for speakers of less tolerant language to learn more tolerant language
than
for speakers of more tolerant language to learn less tolerant language.
So, at least for pronounciation,
the readers of <sci.lang.japan>, leaning Japanese
should be happier than
the readers of <japan.lang.english.communication>, leaning English....
I personally find that it's not my tongue or ear, but rather my "brain",
which is very tolerant between R and L. :) I often hear unknown word,
clearly distinguishing "L" or "R" at the moment of hearing, and take
dictionary at hand, and while searching, I found searching wrong spelling,
L and R (or V and B) exchanged... Don't worry, Be happy, isn't it nice
to have a very tolerant brain? (*3)
muchan
*1 : not true, of course
*2 : can be true, of course
*3 : especially about the color of skin, etc...
muchan
>
> On 3 Jul 1999 23:27:04 GMT, j...@nexus.dgs.monash.edu.au wrote:
> >...
> >Hmmm. Now I'm *very* tempted to say that it's as much my language as
> >it is Ben's; that my ancestors have probably spoken it for much the same
> >period as his; and that the fact that my forebears left the UK in the
> >mid-1800s and moved to another English-speaking country makes not a whit
> >of difference in the matter of proprietorship over the language.
>
> On the contrary. You auzzies speak the Queen's English FAR better ;-)
>
> --
I read some weeks ago, that the Queen herself said "as us", in stead
of "as we" in her public speech, that academical defenders of the
Queen's English had bitter moment... and... so who speaks "Queen's"
English better?
(may be *I*? :) just kidding. ...but I'm the best writer of...
Muchan's English.
muchan
>
> >
> > uuum, "shir-eru" as "shiru koto-ga dekiru"?
> >
> > Reading rest of samples, "shireru" has rather voluntary/passive/impersonal
> > nuance, like "mieru" from "miru". but...
> >
> > I can't explain it well.
>
> In Japanese grammatical terms, it is called 'jihatsu', I think.
> In my usage and the standard Japanese, "shireru" has 'jihatsu' meaning.
>
> What I wanted to say in my previous post is that if a native speaker of
> Japanese says "shirabereba shi-re-masu." is acceptable, I can believe it
> should be acceptable for him/her in his/her dialects, though I dou't
> know if Nishikawa is a native speaker or not.
>
Once I tryed to explain and list up Japanese Transition - Intransition
verb pairs systematically, but when I encounter "mieru" as intransitive,
and "jihatsu" ("spontaneous" or "volantary"?) I stopped there and didn't
(couldn't) continue the project any more.
Now thinking again about "mi.eru" "kiko.eru", I think about older form
"mi.yu", "kik.oyu" and wondered what this "-yu" ending.
Everytime I encounter such problem, I seek the answer in Oono's
"Iwanami Kogo-jiten". It enumerates "-yu" and "-rayu" form as old
variation of, "-(r)aru", "-(r)areru". ("-(r)areru" come from old
verb "ar.u" which meant "to be generated", "to be born". FYI)
So "mieru" "kikoeru" seems living dinosaures of archaic "miyu", "kikoyu"
expression, meaning "can be seen", "can be heard", which, more example
of similar case is not easily found. (It's hart to imagine similar
case "meaning" like them...)
"shireru" (can be known, "will be exposed as fact"), is one exceptional
case, which is similar to the two, but "shireru" and "kokoeru" are not
parallel in form. So what was older form of "shireru"?
If "shir.i + e.ru" ( was then, "shir.i + u.ru") it may indicate
Activ Potencial, but "shireru" is rather Passive (impersonal) Potencial.
If "shir.i + yu" like kikoyu, then old form would be "shiroyu",
and modern form would be "shiraeru", which doesn't exsist.
If "shir.i + ar.u" then "shir.are.ru", which is valid form.
("momoto-ga shireru" is equivalent to "mimoto-ga shirareru". (IMHO)
but "-ka(-mo) shire-nai" is never said "-ka(-mo) shirare-nai" )
Grammaticians condamned "tabe.reru" (which, I consider, was correct as
Active Potential, from "tabe. + eru" < "tabe. + u-ru") as error,
how then "shireru" survived as correct?
This "shireru" is a mystery, indeed...
muchan
Gerald B Mathias
: Christopher Schmidt <christoph...@gmx.net> wrote:
: /jippun/ is _correct_.
Maybe "*was* correct"?
Correct language is what most people say. It changes.
Or we'll end up saying "Ohayaku gozarimasuru" is correct and "Ohayoo
gozaimasu" is incorrect. "Yuite" is correct, and "itte" is wrong. Etc.
Bart
Gerald B Mathias
: Hisashi FUKUI <hfu...@pop06.odn.ne.jp> wrote:
: > nishikawa wrote in message <7lkhjm$bic$1...@news00.btx.dtag.de>...
: > >shirabereba shi-re-masu. 調べれば知れます。
: > >e.g. sonnakotowo sureba osatoga siremasuyo.
: > >そんなことをすればお里が 知れますよ。douse takaga
: > >shi-re-te-iru. どうせたかが知れている。
: >
: >
: > I believe we don't say "shirabereba shi-re-masu"
: > unless we are joking.
: In the standard Japanese, Tokyo dialect and the Kansai dialect, we don't
: say "shirabereba shiremasu."
: I don't know other dialects.
: But, I guess it would be possible in some dialects because '-(r)eru' has
: a meaning that "possible". it would be logically possible to say
: "shir-eru" in the meaning of "be able to know" same as
: "hashir-eru"(hashiru+eru), "ik-eru"(iku+eru), "hakob-eru"(hakobu+eru),
: though I don't say, too....
"Hashiru, iku, hakobu" are all things one can do on purpose. You can say
"hashiroo, ikoo, hakoboo," all in the sense of "Let's ..."
The -eru/-(ra)reru kanookei work best with that kind of verb.
It is hard to use that form with predicates that don't include human
control, such as "shiru, wakaru, aru, omou," etc. Unless one is joking.
"Aroo" is possible, but doesn't mean "Let's be/exits/have"; I'm not sure
about the others, but in my pseudo-Japanese, "wakatte miyoo" sounds much
better than "wakaroo.")
"Shireru" and "omoeru" are jihatsu (spontaneous?); "wakareru" is another
derivation of "waku" already ("ano hito-to wakarerenai" should be more or
less OK?), and "areru" would not likely mean "ariuru."
"Wakaru" and "wakareru" are kind of interesting on second look. "Wakaru"
has a passive look and a jihatsu feel. "Wakareru" has a very passive
look, but in modern usage it seems to be strictly active voice.
Bart
Gerald B Mathias
: So "mieru" "kikoeru" seems living dinosaures of archaic "miyu", "kikoyu"
: expression, meaning "can be seen", "can be heard", which, more example
: of similar case is not easily found. (It's hart to imagine similar
: case "meaning" like them...)
There are more such dinosaurs. "Arayuru" is the "-(a)y(e)- (i.e.,
"mizenkei" + shimo-nidan "yu") form of "ari," as hard to understand how
"ari" could have a passive. "Oboeru" is "omop-" + "(V)y(e)-" (using a
special "mizenkei"--as I have said before, the so-called mizenkei is an
artifact of grammatical mis-analysis), where "...mop..." > "...b..." There
is also "iwayuru," which is easy to see as passive of "iu." "Arayuru" and
"iwayuru" are a couple of dinosaur rentaikei fossils which don't work as
verbs anymore.
: "shireru" (can be known, "will be exposed as fact"), is one exceptional
: case, which is similar to the two, but "shireru" and "kokoeru" are not
: parallel in form. So what was older form of "shireru"?
: If "shir.i + e.ru" ( was then, "shir.i + u.ru") it may indicate
: Activ Potencial, but "shireru" is rather Passive (impersonal) Potencial.
: If "shir.i + yu" like kikoyu, then old form would be "shiroyu",
: and modern form would be "shiraeru", which doesn't exsist.
: If "shir.i + ar.u" then "shir.are.ru", which is valid form.
: ("momoto-ga shireru" is equivalent to "mimoto-ga shirareru". (IMHO)
: but "-ka(-mo) shire-nai" is never said "-ka(-mo) shirare-nai" )
: Grammaticians condamned "tabe.reru" (which, I consider, was correct as
: Active Potential, from "tabe. + eru" < "tabe. + u-ru") as error,
: how then "shireru" survived as correct?
: This "shireru" is a mystery, indeed...
How is it different from "nakeru," "omoeru," etc.?
Bart
Syun
Annie have mentioned.
Hisashi FUKUI wrote in message <7lu92q$l2s$1...@newsgw8.odn.ne.jp>...
>Though most dictionaries say "shireru" means "to be
>able to get to know" (...snip)
shireru(LHL:in Tokyo dialect) = can + "shiru(他動詞)"
>"Shireru" has another meaning "to be known" in the
>form of "...ni shireru" (...snip)
shireru(LHH:in Tokyo dialect) = "shireru(自動詞)" : a independent word
nishikawa wrote in message <7m1t1o$3ve$1...@news08.btx.dtag.de>...
>tabe-reru 食べれる このキノコは食べれる。
>oki-reru 起きれる 私は朝早く起きれる。
>hashi-reru 走れる 早く走れる車。
>shi-reru 知れる 君、そんな話はすぐにウソと知れるさ。
> 警察が本気で調べればすぐに犯人は
>君だと知れるさ。
I think this "知れる" is "shireru(自動詞)".
And the others are "can + verb".
--
Syun
Annie
> Grammaticians condamned "tabe.reru" (which, I consider, was correct as
> Active Potential, from "tabe. + eru" < "tabe. + u-ru") as error,
> how then "shireru" survived as correct?
>
No, no.
I don't say "shirabereba shiremasu" _correct_ in the Standard Japanese.
I said it is highly believable that the "shireru" is _correct_ in some
dialect(s) except Tokyo and Kansai.
"Tabereru" is _incorrect_ in the Standard Japanese. But it seems to be
_correct_ in some dialect(s).
--
Annie
<ann...@gol.com>
Don Kirkman
<slrn7o7rjd....@shell3.ba.best.com>:
>On 3 Jul 1999 05:03:02 GMT, j...@nexus.dgs.monash.edu.au wrote:
>>On a slightly more serious note, I don't give a hoot about what is "up" or
>>"down", and if Northern Hemispherians feel happier regarding themselves
>>as on top, well who am I to stand in the way of greater human happiness
>>(after all, there are more of them than us.)
>>I do get peeved, however, when people refer to us as "the Antipodes" in
>>such a way that we are expected to use the label on ourselves. This
>>use of "the Antipodes" is a very Eurocentric thing; after all it would be
>>inaccurate to use it in Japan or the US.
>I always thought it was relating to nearness to "the other pole", similar
>to being a synonym for "southern hemisphere"
No, not poles but feet. The Antipodes are opposite our feet (I guess
that sits better than saying 'under our feet').
>[okay, not japan, but still in the realm of sci.lang ;-)]
But Japan too is antipodal to some spot on the earth, possibly in the
south Atlantic.
--
Don
YOZAEMON
>Grammaticians condamned "tabe.reru" (which, I consider, was correct as
>Active Potential, from "tabe. + eru" < "tabe. + u-ru") as error,
>how then "shireru" survived as correct?
Hi, I'm Japanese lived in Japan.
(tabe-reru)
Basically, I think, this is a probrem of Japanese language in present time
called 'ra nuki kotoba' in Japan. KANJI: ら抜き言葉
Grammatically, follow this
ex)
be able to eat ='tabe-rareru' --> 'tabe-reru'食べれる
be able to get up ='oki-rareru' --> 'oki-reru'起きれる
Young Japanese use this 'ra-nuki kotoba' veru often...include me!
Why omitted 'ra' ?
Because it's easy to pronounce for us.
But old Japanese and philologist claim that is incorrect.
So I think,
Every language will change slowly and certainty as Japanese language did.
This is natural change.
So, 'tabe-reru' , that's ok !
(shi-reru)
We use this word 'shi-reru' , is not only 'be able to know',
but also 'be known'.
ex)'be able to know'
彼の能力はしょせん知れたものだ。
kare no nouryoku ha shosen sireta mono da.
ex)'be known'
彼の秘密が皆に知れた。
kare no himitsu ga mina ni shireta
hu-mm,
That Example is perhaps not proper...
The pronounciation 'shi-reru' is not popular now.
We use 'be able to know' -->'shiru koto ga dekiru' 知る事ができる
'be known' --> 'bareru' バレる
so, don't mind this illegal grammatical rule.
yozaemon
muchan
>
> muchan <muc...@promikra.si> wrote:
>
> > Grammaticians condamned "tabe.reru" (which, I consider, was correct as
> > Active Potential, from "tabe. + eru" < "tabe. + u-ru") as error,
> > how then "shireru" survived as correct?
> >
> I don't say "shirabereba shiremasu" _correct_ in the Standard Japanese.
> I said it is highly believable that the "shireru" is _correct_ in some
> dialect(s) except Tokyo and Kansai.
>
> "Tabereru" is _incorrect_ in the Standard Japanese. But it seems to be
> _correct_ in some dialect(s).
>
No, no.
I don't say "shirareru" survived as correct as a meaning of "can know",
but talking about the verb "form", where "-reru" verbs are condamned
as wrong by grammaticians, but shireru survived.
Well, I know the answer... :) "-reru dooshi", added to "ichidan" type
(or vowel ending stem type of verb, or "stem-" as "renyookee"
& "stem + -ru" as "shuushikee" type of verb, like tabe-, mi-, etc.)
are condamned as incorrect, but "-eru" added to "godan" type,
(or consonant* ending sten type of verb) like /kak.eru/, /yom.eru/
are not condamned as incorrect, and passed as Active-Potential in
contrast to Spontaneous/Respect/Passive/Passive-Potential form
/kak.are.ru/, /yom.are.ru/, etc. When the ending consonant of stem
is 'r' like /shir.u/ /tor.u/ /ur.u/, "-eru" form is valid and
sounds as "-reru" when heard with mora, i.e. for speakers ears.
*stem ending with lost consonant F -> hw -> w -> (void)
except /...w-anai/ form is actually wnding with vowel, but are still
considered as consonant ending stem verbs. like /wara(w).u/ /uta(w).u/.
What I thought, is, observing (r) insertion of "-are-", following
ichidan type verbs, like
/tabe.(r)are.ru/, /de.(r)are.ru/, /mi.(r)are.ru/...
I think (r) is used to "avoid vowel succession". Probably subconsciously
by Japanese speakers of old time. And so, for Active-Potential "-e.ru"
also, when following vowel ending stems, (r) is inserted to avoid the
vowel succession. like
/tabe.(r)e.ru/, /de.(r)e.ru/, /mi.(r)e.ru/...
>From this, I think "-(r)e.ru" verbs were correct form as Active-Potencial,
in contrast to "-(r)are.ru" as Passive-Potencial. The grammaticians of
Edo era, didn't have idea of deviding "mora" into consonant and vowel,
so didn't see such distinction, and they confused Active/Passive-Potential,
too, and thus decided that "(r)are.ru" is ukemi/kanoo/sonkee/jihatsu,
without distinguishing Active or Passive Potencial. Since them, "tabereru"
as Potential was grammatically denyed. (so I don't think it's question of
dialect. but since dialects are free from grammaticians, they are tolerant
to the correct spoken form, which theoritician thought _incorrect_. )
IMHT (in my humble theory)
BTW, /mi.e.ru/ and /kik.oe.ru/ are clearly different origin of words than
/mi.(r)e.ru/, /mi.(r)are.ru/, /kik.e.ru/, /kik.are.ru/.
/shir.e.ru/ is probably same construct as /kik.eru/, but semanticly
closer to /kik.oe.ru/ version. That's why it is interesting.
muchan
P.S. Above theory is not new to <s.l.j>, since I wrote it in fall of 1996,
I think, already... reading <fj.sci.lang> sometimes, now I noticed that
"-reru" verbs are now widely accepted and those who insist them _incorrect_
are thought to be fossil dinosaurs, too... the time change in three years.
muchan
>
>
> But Japan too is antipodal to some spot on the earth, possibly in the
> south Atlantic.
> --
IMHN Japan is opposit to Chile... CMIIW.
muchan
*IMHN: in my hamble knowledge
**CMIIW: correct me if I'm wrong!
muchan
>
> muchan (muc...@promikra.si) wrote:
>
> : So "mieru" "kikoeru" seems living dinosaures of archaic "miyu", "kikoyu"
> : expression, meaning "can be seen", "can be heard", which, more example
> : of similar case is not easily found. (It's hart to imagine similar
> : case "meaning" like them...)
>
> There are more such dinosaurs. "Arayuru" is the "-(a)y(e)- (i.e.,
> "mizenkei" + shimo-nidan "yu") form of "ari," as hard to understand how
> "ari" could have a passive. "Oboeru" is "omop-" + "(V)y(e)-" (using a
> special "mizenkei"--as I have said before, the so-called mizenkei is an
> artifact of grammatical mis-analysis), where "...mop..." > "...b..." There
> is also "iwayuru," which is easy to see as passive of "iu." "Arayuru" and
> "iwayuru" are a couple of dinosaur rentaikei fossils which don't work as
> verbs anymore.
>
Thanks for showing me more dinosaurs. :) I want more! :)
> : "shireru" (can be known, "will be exposed as fact"), is one exceptional
> : case, which is similar to the two, but "shireru" and "kokoeru" are not
> : parallel in form. So what was older form of "shireru"?
> : If "shir.i + e.ru" ( was then, "shir.i + u.ru") it may indicate
> : Activ Potencial, but "shireru" is rather Passive (impersonal) Potencial.
> : If "shir.i + yu" like kikoyu, then old form would be "shiroyu",
> : and modern form would be "shiraeru", which doesn't exsist.
> : If "shir.i + ar.u" then "shir.are.ru", which is valid form.
>
> : ("momoto-ga shireru" is equivalent to "mimoto-ga shirareru". (IMHO)
> : but "-ka(-mo) shire-nai" is never said "-ka(-mo) shirare-nai" )
>
> : Grammaticians condamned "tabe.reru" (which, I consider, was correct as
> : Active Potential, from "tabe. + eru" < "tabe. + u-ru") as error,
> : how then "shireru" survived as correct?
>
> : This "shireru" is a mystery, indeed...
>
> How is it different from "nakeru," "omoeru," etc.?
>
aa, naruhodo.
...but how about the subject they take?
uum, kore-ha nakeru hanashi-da. (this story is "can-be-cry-of")
This case is rentaikee (noun modifer clause). the Subject is still person?
uum, kono hanashi-wa nakeru!
I wonder if people wonder whether I'm native speaker, I find this sentence
natural (if said by some editor of magazine, for example.) But hanashi,
the story can be Subject?
e? nani-ga nakeru? kono hanashi-ga nakeru.
I wonder if I am native speaker, with this last example...
kono hanashi-wa hontoo-no yoo-ni omoeru.
Still I feel *I* who "come to think", in this example, unlike "shireru"
version which in completely impersonal, (we can't tell "who" will know,
"they" "someone" "anyone" or "you" as impersonal is the Actor of "shireru".)
muchan
> Bart
muchan
>
> muchan <muc...@promikra.si> wrote:
>
> > (snip...)
>
> ex)'be known'
> 彼の秘密が皆に知れた。
> kare no himitsu ga mina ni shireta
>
> hu-mm,
> That Example is perhaps not proper...
> The pronounciation 'shi-reru' is not popular now.
> We use 'be able to know' -->'shiru koto ga dekiru' 知る事ができる
> 'be known' --> 'bareru' バレる
>
> so, don't mind this illegal grammatical rule.
>
I do mind because it's my hobby. :)
muchan
Annie
> It is hard to use that form with predicates that don't include human
> control, such as "shiru, wakaru, aru, omou," etc. Unless one is
joking.
> "Aroo" is possible, but doesn't mean "Let's be/exits/have"; I'm not
sure
> about the others, but in my pseudo-Japanese, "wakatte miyoo" sounds
much
> better than "wakaroo.")
>
> "Shireru" and "omoeru" are jihatsu (spontaneous?); "wakareru" is
another
> derivation of "waku" already ("ano hito-to wakarerenai" should be more
or
> less OK?), and "areru" would not likely mean "ariuru."
>
>
> "Wakaru" and "wakareru" are kind of interesting on second look.
"Wakaru"
> has a passive look and a jihatsu feel. "Wakareru" has a very passive
> look, but in modern usage it seems to be strictly active voice.
>
Michi no mono ni deatta toki sore wo motto _shirou_, _wakarou_ to iu
kimochi ga taisetu desu.
It's something like 'hyougo'(slogan?) in the elementary school.
I never feel the 'shirou' and 'wakarou' odd.
(The first 'wakaru' you mention means 'understand', doesn't it?
And the last 'wakareru' means 'say goodbye', doesn' it?
Since there are so many 'wakaru' and 'wkareru', it is difficult to
understand only with romaji.
判る、分る、解る、別れる、分かれる
--
Annie
<ann...@gol.com>
Annie
> : /jippun/ is _correct_.
>
> Maybe "*was* correct"?
>
> Correct language is what most people say. It changes.
>
Depend on what does 'correct' mean.
The majority of native speaker including me say /juppun/.
Therefore, if 'correct' means 'the majority use', /juppun/ is correct.
But, dictionarys and textbooks used at school still don't accept
/juppun/. (Maybe Monbusho or Kokugo Shingi Kai does not accept /juppun/
I guess.)
Therefore I wrote "/jippun/ is _correct_." with the word 'correct'
enclosed in '_' marks.
In other words, we learn at school that /jupp-/ is incorrect and /jipp-/
is correct.
> Or we'll end up saying "Ohayaku gozarimasuru" is correct and "Ohayoo
> gozaimasu" is incorrect. "Yuite" is correct, and "itte" is wrong. Etc.
>
Monbushou (or Kokugo Shingi Kai) now recommends "Ohayou gozaimasu." or
"itte".
* * * *
Teacher: ... toiu wake de, /jippun/ ga tadashii no desu.
Minasan, wakarimashita ne?
Students: Hai.
Teacher: Soredewa, kyou no jugyou wa koko made.
Ima kara /juppun/-kan shou-tesuto wo shimasu.
Hai, tsukue no ue wo katadukete.
--
Annie
<ann...@gol.com>
Gerald B Mathias
: Gerald B Mathias <mat...@Hawaii.Edu> wrote:
: The majority of native speaker including me say /juppun/.
: Therefore, if 'correct' means 'the majority use', /juppun/ is correct.
: But, dictionarys and textbooks used at school still don't accept
: /juppun/. (Maybe Monbusho or Kokugo Shingi Kai does not accept /juppun/
: I guess.)
: Therefore I wrote "/jippun/ is _correct_." with the word 'correct'
: enclosed in '_' marks.
I didn't know how to interpret your italics. Many of us use quotation
marks for the sense of "this is what people say, though it may not be
truly so."
: In other words, we learn at school that /jupp-/ is incorrect and /jipp-/
: is correct.
It always takes the Establishments a bit longer to catch up on what is
really correct.
: * * * *
: Teacher: ... toiu wake de, /jippun/ ga tadashii no desu.
: Minasan, wakarimashita ne?
: Students: Hai.
: Teacher: Soredewa, kyou no jugyou wa koko made.
: Ima kara /juppun/-kan shou-tesuto wo shimasu.
: Hai, tsukue no ue wo katadukete.
That's delightful! Please stay with this group forever, Annie!
Bart
H. Takahashi
Gerald B Mathias <mat...@Hawaii.Edu> wrote in message
news:7m2uno$q...@news.Hawaii.Edu...
> Annie (ann...@gol.com) wrote:
> : Christopher Schmidt <christoph...@gmx.net> wrote:
>
> : >
> : > Yep, what about "ten minutes"? What is correct, /juppun/ or /jippun? I
> : > remember having had a quarrel with a teacher at Japanese School over
this
> : > issue, she insisted on /jippun/, but I and the other students kept
saying
> : > /juppun/.
> : >
>
>
> Maybe "*was* correct"?
>
>
> Bart
I agree with Bart.
I hear newer textbooks (of Japanese language for non-Japanese
learners) mention both "jippun" and "juppun" pronunciations,
while older ones note only "jippun."
Maybe "jippun" is legitimate usage, but I think many, if not
most, say "juppun."
Hiro Takahashi,
Annie
<3784899F...@promikra.si> on Thu, 08 Jul 1999:
> So "mieru" "kokoeru" seems living dinosaures of archaic "miyu", "kikoyu"
> expression, meaning "can be seen", "can be heard", which, more example
> of similar case is not easily found. (It's hart to imagine similar
> case "meaning" like them...)
>
heard". I think "mirareru" and "kikeru".
> "shireru" (can be known, "will be exposed as fact"), is one exceptional
> case, which is similar to the two, but "shireru" and "kokoeru" are not
> parallel in form. So what was older form of "shireru"?
What is the old form for "mirareru" and "kikeru"?
muchan <muc...@promikra.si> wrote in Message
<3785D662...@promikra.si> on Fri, 09 Jul 1999:
> Annie wrote:
> >
> > muchan <muc...@promikra.si> wrote:
> >
> > > Grammaticians condamned "tabe.reru" (which, I consider, was correct as
> > > Active Potential, from "tabe. + eru" < "tabe. + u-ru") as error,
> > > how then "shireru" survived as correct?
In my opinion (not grammaticians'):
The corresponding forms for "tabereru"(Active Potential) and "tabeuru"
are " are "shireru" and "shiriuru."
I think many native speakers accept "tabereru" form for Active
Potential since this form is much reasonable.
> I don't say "shirareru" survived as correct as a meaning of "can know",
I've never thought you say "shirareru" in the meaning of "can konw" is
correct. My topic is (has been?) "shireru".
--
Annie
<ann...@gol.com>
Doug Wickstrom
excited the ether to say:
>Don Kirkman wrote:
>>
>>
>> But Japan too is antipodal to some spot on the earth, possibly in the
>> south Atlantic.
>> --
>
>IMHN Japan is opposit to Chile... CMIIW.
From the compendium of useless facts, I discover that the point
on the Earth's surface antipodal to Tokyo is in the South
Atlantic Ocean, 1,000 kilometers due east of Porto Alegre,
Brazil.
--
Doug Wickstrom
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
--Benjamin Franklin
Hisashi FUKUI
viewpoint.
muchan wrote in message <3785D662...@promikra.si>...
> "-reru dooshi", added to "ichidan" type
> (or vowel ending stem type of verb, or "stem-" as "renyookee"
> & "stem + -ru" as "shuushikee" type of verb, like tabe-, mi-, etc.)
> are condamned as incorrect, but "-eru" added to "godan" type,
> (or consonant* ending sten type of verb) like /kak.eru/, /yom.eru/
> are not condamned as incorrect, and passed as Active-Potential [...]
and showed us the point:
> /shir.e.ru/ is probably same construct as /kik.eru/, but semanticly
> closer to /kik.oe.ru/ version. That's why it is interesting.
As muchan wrote, "-.eru" verbs which derives from "5-dan"
type verbs are considered to be Active-Potential verbs. And
apparently "shir.eru" belongs to this category in form but not
in meaning. But I wondered if these "-.eru" verbs actually
have Active-Potential meanings. And I did an investigation of
this matter. I would like to show the result:
Of all "5-dan" type verbs I have examined,
(1) verbs that mean an action which one can do on purpose
have corresponding "-.eru" derivatives functioning as Active-
Potential verbs. In these cases, the derived "-.eru" verbs can
often be substituted by "(original verb) + suru koto ga dekiru"
phrases.
Ex. kaku (write) --> kak.eru (= kaku koto ga dekiru)
(2) some verbs behave the same as (1), but the "-.eru" derivatives
function not only as Active-Potential verbs but also as independent
"jihatsu" verbs. This phenomenon is not very surprising. Because in
Japanese "jihatsu" is semantically close to Potential, and in fact,
"auxiliary verbs" of Potential (-reru, -rareru) are also those of
"jihatsu".
Ex. naku (weep) --> nak.eru (= naku koto ga dekiru)
but also: -- shinda otouto wo omou to nakete kuru
(3) some TRANSITIVE verbs behave the same as (1), but the
"-.eru" derivatives function not only as Active-Potential verbs
but also as the corresponding INTRANSITIVE verbs.
Ex. toru (take) --> tor.eru (= toru koto ga dekiru)
but also: -- totte [kome, tsukare] ga toreru
Other Ex.: kiru (cut), kudaku (break), oru (break), saku (tear),
toku (solve), waru (break)
(4) some INTRANSITIVE verbs have corresponding "-.eru"
derivatives which function as the corresponding TRANSITIVE verbs,
some of which also contain Active-Positive meanings, some not.
In this case, the derived "-.eru" verbs can often be substituted
by "(original verb's stem) + .aseru)" phrase.
Ex. doku (step aside) --> dok.eru (= doku koto ga dekiru)
but also: -- jamana ishi wo dokeru (= dokaseru)
Ex. aku (open) --> ak.eru (not equal to "aku koto ga dekiru")
but: -- mado wo akeru
Other Ex.: kanau (come true), karamu (get entangled), shizumu (sink),
susumu (go ahead), tatsu (be built), ukabu (float), yamu (stop)
(5) a few verbs have corresponding "-.eru" derivatives which have
almost the same meaning as the original one.
Ex. moru (leak) --> mor.eru; machigau (err) --> machiga.eru
(6) some verbs that mean an action which one cannot do on
purpose have no "-.eru" derivatives.
Ex. komaru (be in trouble) --> komar.eru ???
heru (decrease) --> her.eru ???
What surprised me through this investigation was that the
procedure which had been considered to be that of making
Active-Potential derivatives from verbs could affect not only
Potentiality but also Transitive-Intransitive aspect in many
cases. Furthermore, this procedure is so flexible that it can
transform Transitive/Intransitive verbs into the other in
both two directions.
I think the "shiru/shireru" pair should be classified into the
case (3). Because "shiru" is Transitive (no matter whether
one can "shiru" on purpose) and "shiru/shireru" is none
other than the Transitive-Intransitive pair.
The only problem "shireru" suffers from is that it is
semantically so close to "shirareru" that one might feel
as if "shireru" would be non-authoritative "ra-nuki" derivative
of "shirareru". (Compare with the case of "waru/wareru".
"wareru" and "warareru" couldn't be confused.)
Hisashi
nishikawa
Hisashi FUKUI <hfu...@pop06.odn.ne.jp> wrote in message
news:7m93hc$kge$1...@newsgw8.odn.ne.jp...
> Let me now discuss the "shireru" mystery from another
> viewpoint.
>
FUKUI-san, thank you for a fine and useflu analysis on "shireru"
mystery. I have read it twice with every care, and I've realized again
that it must be really a challenging work for Japanese-learning-people
to master all these usages of Japanese verbs. I really admire people
here who are so enthusiatic in finding and kowing what is correct in a
language.
nishikawa
Gerald B Mathias
: Michi no mono ni deatta toki sore wo motto _shirou_, _wakarou_ to iu
: kimochi ga taisetu desu.
: It's something like 'hyougo'(slogan?) in the elementary school.
: I never feel the 'shirou' and 'wakarou' odd.
I wonder if they wouldn't say, in that same elementary school, that
"sore-o wakaru" is "incorrect"?
Even with my limited Japanese, I can imagine sentences like the slogan you
give, as well as extracurricular usage like "kimi-no kimochi-o isshokenmee
wakaroo-to shite iru-kedo..." But I can't make one up with "shiroo."
"Yoku benkyooshite, iroiro shiri-nasai"? I hope not.
: (The first 'wakaru' you mention means 'understand', doesn't it?
: And the last 'wakareru' means 'say goodbye', doesn' it?
: Since there are so many 'wakaru' and 'wkareru', it is difficult to
: understand only with romaji.
In the spoken language, which I admit is much more difficult for me than
the written, there is exactly one "wakaru" and one "wakareru."
: 判る、分る、解る、別れる、分かれる
Bart
muchan
The second part (4), (5) about Intransitive-Transitive made me suspect.
I think "-eru" of (2) (3) comes from "u-ru" (the version with kanji "toku",
sontoku-no toku with gyooninben). but "-eru" of (4) (5) and the pair of
Intransitive vs, Transitive must be much older, ie. before 8c, or derived
before the oldest Japanese text was written.
So I wonder if it's significant to mix to kinds of "-eru" in one summary...
Nakeru, toreru (2) and (3) is interesting to dig deeper...
muchan
Hisashi FUKUI wrote:
>
> Let me now discuss the "shireru" mystery from another
> viewpoint.
>
muchan
>
> Annie (ann...@gol.com) wrote:
>
> : Michi no mono ni deatta toki sore wo motto _shirou_, _wakarou_ to iu
> : kimochi ga taisetu desu.
>
> : It's something like 'hyougo'(slogan?) in the elementary school.
> : I never feel the 'shirou' and 'wakarou' odd.
>
> I wonder if they wouldn't say, in that same elementary school, that
> "sore-o wakaru" is "incorrect"?
>
"sore-ga wakaru" but
"sore-o wakaroo-to suru".
Probably, "-oo-to suru" part is "to try to" and change the verb to trransitive.
> Even with my limited Japanese, I can imagine sentences like the slogan you
> give, as well as extracurricular usage like "kimi-no kimochi-o isshokenmee
> wakaroo-to shite iru-kedo..." But I can't make one up with "shiroo."
>
> "Yoku benkyooshite, iroiro shiri-nasai"? I hope not.
>
monoshiri-ni narinasai?
"haji-o shirinasai!" is a possible example, but...
muchan
nishikawa
Gerald B Mathias <mat...@Hawaii.Edu> wrote in message
> Annie (ann...@gol.com) wrote:
>
> : Michi no mono ni deatta toki sore wo motto _shirou_, _wakarou_ to
iu
> : kimochi ga taisetu desu.
>
> : It's something like 'hyougo'(slogan?) in the elementary school.
> : I never feel the 'shirou' and 'wakarou' odd.
>
>
Why not? Annie's example is perfect and natural.
nishikawa
nishikawa
muchan <muc...@promikra.si> wrote in message
news:3789C6AE...@promikra.si...
> The first part, (2), and (3) made me think.
> The second part (4), (5) about Intransitive-Transitive made me
suspect.
>
> I think "-eru" of (2) (3) comes from "u-ru" (the version with kanji
"toku",
> sontoku-no toku with gyooninben). but "-eru" of (4) (5) and the pair
of
> Intransitive vs, Transitive must be much older, ie. before 8c, or
derived
> before the oldest Japanese text was written.
"u-ru" (the version with kanji "toku" is another independent verb. It
doesn't affect the usages of the verbs. It seems that you are confused
here.
--
Nishikawa
Nishikawa Trade GmbH nish...@t-online.de
ドイツの高級洋食器 カトラリー／リモージュ（Limoges）の高級洋食器販売
muchan
now I have completely reversed opinion.
Unlike nishikawa's objection I still think "-e.ru" as "can" Active potential
is much newer than "-e.ru" as Transitive -> Intransitive pair making.
Hisashi's (3): Transitive verb -> (4) Intransitive (Spontaneous) verb
with adding "-e.ru" may not have meaning of "Potencial" in first place,
tok.u -> tok.as.u (vt) tok.e.ru (vi)
hazus.u (vt) -> hazur.e.ru (vi)
kes.u (vt) -> kie.ru (vi)
nagas.u (vt) -> nagare.ru (vi)
(maybe these -s.i vs. -r.e. pair is not adequate here)
hag.u (vt) -> hag.e.ru (vi) -- hag.are.ru (vi)
tor.u (vt) -> tor.e.ru (vi)
or.u (vt) -> or.e.ru (vi)
ni.ru (vt) -> ni.e.ru (vi) (this is similar to mi.ru, mi.e.ru)
It's not easy to find out adequate examples. I notice that
/shir.u/, /shir.e.ru/ difference is parallel to /tor.u/, /tor.e.ru/
and I think we can explain /shireru/ much easier not taking it as
Potential at all.
While seeking example, I found much examples that "-e.ru" is rather
making Transitive verb, contrasting to Intransitive "-ar.u", "-are.ru",
like /wak.e.ru/, /wak.are.ru/, /maz.e.ru/, /maz.ar.u/, etc. This is
the case of Hisashi's (4). It's not easy task to list & categorise
verb element semanticly...
I hope he'll do one step further. (without thinking too much about "can").
BTW, I'm reading Annie's "nakeru" thread on <fj.sci.lang>, too...
I think the case of
"kore-wa nakeru(hanashi-da)"
is "rentaikee", i.e. "verb used in adjective clause".
It's "verb" as categolisation of words (semantic) and "adjective"
in syntactic function.
Like "tobu tori" ("birds that fly" = "flying bird(s)")
where tori is syntactic Subject of the verb,
I think "hanashi" is the syntactic Subject of "nakeru". But
semantic Acter of the Action of crying, is *I* the speaker or
*we* "the people who hear/read the story".
"Shukaku" or "Nominative Case" is used for Morphological analyses,
keetai-bunseki, about the word's form which change with its syntactic
function. In my grammar, I think of "word" together with the sticker,
so "XXX-ga" is the nominative case. Noun without sticker is semantic
unit but not syntactic unit, so it doesn't have Case itself.
("-wa" is not Case sticker, so I don't call it "nominative case").
muchan
I wrote:
>
> The first part, (2), and (3) made me think.
> The second part (4), (5) about Intransitive-Transitive made me suspect.
>
> I think "-eru" of (2) (3) comes from "u-ru" (the version with kanji "toku",
> sontoku-no toku with gyooninben). but "-eru" of (4) (5) and the pair of
> Intransitive vs, Transitive must be much older, ie. before 8c, or derived
> before the oldest Japanese text was written.
>