Why romaji "R" and not "L"?
Juuichirou Tendou
"R". Like "Lanma, Lanma".
Why is the convention to romanize with R?
It is very easy for a gaijin to get locked into the mode of not really
distinguishing between L and R, though, isn't it?
It is easy for Japanese to get addictive. Like once I said "In vino
veritasu"(sic)!
--
Posted from d144h209.resnet.uconn.edu [137.99.144.209]
via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Cindy
> In so many many of my songs, if you want to sing along, the girl sings "L", not
> "R". Like "Lanma, Lanma".
> Why is the convention to romanize with R?
> It is very easy for a gaijin to get locked into the mode of not really
> distinguishing between L and R, though, isn't it?
>
> It is easy for Japanese to get addictive. Like once I said "In vino
> veritasu"(sic)!
Good question! Let's ask Lei why her name is spelled "Lei" instead of "Rei".
FYI, I kinda like "Rae" too. It sounds rather れえ or れー.
Juuichirou Tendou
> Good question! Let's ask Lei why her name is spelled "Lei" instead of "Rei".
>
Lei-san ha dansei to o...mo...u.......
Sean Holland
Juuichirou Tendou at juuichi...@ranmamail.com wrote on 11/29/01 8:26 PM:
>
>> Good question! Let's ask Lei why her name is spelled "Lei" instead of "Rei".
>>
>
> Lei-san ha dansei to o...mo...u.......
>
No way. Just check out her magnificent figure.
--
Michael Cash
<juuichi...@ranmamail.com> timidly twittered:
>In so many many of my songs, if you want to sing along, the girl sings "L", not
>"R". Like "Lanma, Lanma".
>Why is the convention to romanize with R?
>It is very easy for a gaijin to get locked into the mode of not really
>distinguishing between L and R, though, isn't it?
It could be argued that the Japanese sound which is transcribed as
either "L" or "R" in romaji doesn't really correspond with the English
pronunciation of either of them, so what does it matter?
--
Michael Cash
"No, Mr. Cash, I never said you're a superb athlete. I said
you're incredibly gamey."
Prof. Ernest T. Bass
Mount Pilot College
Japan from the Driver's Seat
http://www.sunfield.ne.jp/~mike/
fj.life.in-japan FAQ/Alt-FAQ
http://shortcut.to/fjlijfaq
Hirofumi Nagamura
>
> In so many many of my songs, if you want to sing along, the girl sings "L", not
> "R". Like "Lanma, Lanma".
> Why is the convention to romanize with R?
The "L" pronunciation of ラ行 sounds is a rather new phenomenon. I've
noticed it only in the last ten years or so, although it might have
been around a bit longer than that. As far as I can tell, it's mostly
limited to female singers (*hint*) and news readers -- Etsuko Komiya,
formerly of News Station, is the person I first noticed using this
pronunciation.
Males using "L" will definitely sound effeminate, at this point in
time at least.
Listening to pop songs -- especially anime songs -- is not a good way
to learn pronunciation IMHO. Many singers use idiosyncratic, affected
pronunciations, just so they could sound "different".
Cheers,
--
Hirofumi Nagamura
Freelance technical translator
Kobe, Japan
Juuichirou Tendou
> > Lei-san ha dansei to o...mo...u.......
> No way. Just check out her magnificent figure.
>
> --
And just HOW am I supposed to do that???? With her over there and me over
here...
Not that I wouldn't want to. But if it is as you say, I am so crazy I just
might get a tattoo of a heart with a zero inside, so I wouldn't want to.
Juuichirou Tendou
> to learn pronunciation IMHO. Many singers use idiosyncratic, affected
> pronunciations, just so they could sound "different".
>
Probably even a Jamaican would have trouble understanding THAT.
Sceadu
news:26ke0u8d8mfiep0e4...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 30 Nov 2001 02:21:31 +0000 (UTC), "Juuichirou Tendou"
> <juuichi...@ranmamail.com> timidly twittered:
>
> >In so many many of my songs, if you want to sing along, the girl sings "L", not
> >"R". Like "Lanma, Lanma".
> >Why is the convention to romanize with R?
> >It is very easy for a gaijin to get locked into the mode of not really
> >distinguishing between L and R, though, isn't it?
>
> It could be argued that the Japanese sound which is transcribed as
> either "L" or "R" in romaji doesn't really correspond with the English
> pronunciation of either of them, so what does it matter?
Maybe because "L" has pretty much one pronunciation in every European language I can think
of, but "R" is pronounced a lot of different ways, some of them rather tapped.... The
Japanese "R" even sounds a lot like the Spanish "R" ....
Just a thought.
Sceadu
Fabian
"Sceadu" <aeona...@hotmail.com.removethis> wrote in message
news:ONUN7.923
> Maybe because "L" has pretty much one pronunciation in every European
language I can think
> of,
Actually, you are using a European language in which L has two different
pronunciations. Either that, or you pronounce words like levelled and old
in a strange way.
--
--
Fabian
Teach a man what to think, and he'll think as long as you watch him. Teach
a man how to think, and he'll think for the rest of his life.
Sceadu
>
> "Sceadu" <aeona...@hotmail.com.removethis> wrote in message
> news:ONUN7.923
>
> > Maybe because "L" has pretty much one pronunciation in every European
> language I can think
> > of,
>
> Actually, you are using a European language in which L has two different
> pronunciations. Either that, or you pronounce words like levelled and old
> in a strange way.
As far as I know, there's only one pronunciation of L in English... Merriam-Webster sez:
\ l \ as in lily, pool. In words such as battle and fiddle the \l\ is a syllabic
consonant. (See the section on \&\ above.)
I'm honestly curious what your second pronunciation is.
Sceadu
Hirofumi Nagamura
>
> > Listening to pop songs -- especially anime songs -- is not a good way
> > to learn pronunciation IMHO. Many singers use idiosyncratic, affected
> > pronunciations, just so they could sound "different".
> >
> Like listening to reggae to learn English, maybe?
> Probably even a Jamaican would have trouble understanding THAT.
That's different, isn't it? Jamaican English is a dialect, or rather a
different language. The analog would be a song in Okinawa or Tsugaru
dialect, I suppose. The weird pronunciations in Japanese pops are
personal affectations, not a dialect thing.
Fabian
"Sceadu" hu kiteb
> As far as I know, there's only one pronunciation of L in English...
Merriam-Webster sez:
>
> \ l \ as in lily, pool. In words such as battle and fiddle the \l\ is
a syllabic
> consonant. (See the section on \&\ above.)
>
> I'm honestly curious what your second pronunciation is.
In many British dialects, syllable-final L is sounded almost as a W.
However, the standard RP dialect, and, I assume, US dialects, make a
distinction between syllable initial L and syllable final L. Essentially,
in the syllable final L (sometimes called 'dark', to distinguish it from
syllable initial, or 'light', L), the middle of the tongue hangs lower in
the mouth.
Polish has two distinct written forms for these two L sounds.
The two sounds become quite distinct when recorded and analysed used a
sound spectroscope. I received a surprising demonstration once. But
because the average English speaker is accustomed to thinking of them as
the same sound, we don't hear the difference. I suppose this 'sonic
myopia' is similar to how Japanese speakers have difficulty with /s/ and
/S/.
Hirofumi Nagamura
>
> "Fabian" <mu...@chung.ii> wrote in message news:9u98fb$fv5$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > pronunciations. Either that, or you pronounce words like levelled and old
> > in a strange way.
>
> As far as I know, there's only one pronunciation of L in English... Merriam-Webster sez:
>
> \ l \ as in lily, pool. In words such as battle and fiddle the \l\ is a syllabic
> consonant. (See the section on \&\ above.)
>
> I'm honestly curious what your second pronunciation is.
Crystal, _The Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language_ (CUP,
1995), p.245:
/l/
Articulation: Lateral; soft palate raised; ... front of tongue
simultaneously raised in direction of hard palate, giving a front-
vowel resonance in such words as RP _leap_ ('clear l'); back of
tongue raised in direction of soft palate, giving a back vowel
resonance in such words as RP _pool_ ('dark l'); ...
Some regional variants: ... dark _l_ often becomes a back vowel
in Cockney, especially with lip rounding, so that _peel_ becomes
more like [pi:o], and this is also heard in some RP, especially
London-influenced speech (as in _careful_, _beautiful_); dark _l_
in all positions in some Scots and much American; clear _l_ in all
positions in some Irish; ...
Keiji
<ONUN7.923$_f.3...@dfw-read.news.verio.net>
日本語でわりこんですみません。
日本語の R は英語の L よりも、舌先と前口蓋(hard palate)との接触点が
少し奥（のど側）になります。
また、おっしゃる通りスペイン語とイタリア語の R に似ています。
例は悪いんですが「べらんめぇ」（東京）の「ら」、「おんどれ、こらぁ」
（広島）の「れ」と「ら」は、まさにこのスペイン語イタリア語の R です。
（一部のイタリア語ではフランス語のようにのどびこ(uvula)を使うようですが
もちろんこれとは違います）
＃さらに余談ですが最近の日本のweb BBSでは「ゴルァ！」と表記するようです（笑）
＃＃そんな言葉を書く場所と状況は、ろくでもないのですが。
アメリカ人の宣教師Hepburn氏がローマ字表記を決めた時、おそらくラテン語を
意識していたのだと思いますが、定かではありません。
（ラテン語の発音は聞いたことがないです）
Lei Tanabe
"Sean Holland" <seanh...@telus.net> wrote
"Rei".
Since I arrived in NZ, I've been spelling my name with "L" from my personal
preference.
The Japanese pronunciation of my name is neither "R" nor "L", but I've
thought the latter is closer.
A sort of compromised way, but I have to express my name in English in some
way.
> > Lei-san ha dansei to o...mo...u.......
dotchi demo iijanai-ka.
> No way. Just check out her magnificent figure.
How did you know that?
Lei
Sean Holland
12/1/01 5:17 PM:
>
> "Sean Holland" <seanh...@telus.net> wrote
ai-ka.
>
>> No way. Just check out her magnificent figure.
>
> How did you know that?
>
> Lei
Oh, I can tell such things just from people's syntax.
--
Sebastian Hew
"Sceadu" <aeona...@hotmail.com.removethis> wrote in message
> As far as I know, there's only one pronunciation of L in English...
Merriam-Webster sez:
>
> \ l \ as in lily, pool. In words such as battle and fiddle the \l\ is a
syllabic
> consonant. (See the section on \&\ above.)
The <l> in 'lily' and 'pool' are pronounced differently: the former is clear
whereas the latter is dark.
> I'm honestly curious what your second pronunciation is.
I don't know which one you're calling the first pronunciation, but the two
are clear 'l' and dark 'l'.
Sebastian.
Shez
>
>"Sceadu" <aeona...@hotmail.com.removethis> wrote in message
>news:uKVN7.942$_f.3...@dfw-read.news.verio.net...
>syllabic
>> consonant. (See the section on \&\ above.)
>
>The <l> in 'lily' and 'pool' are pronounced differently: the former is clear
>whereas the latter is dark.
I'm unclear whether the two 'l' sounds are determined by the
accompanying vowel or the position in the word. For instance in "loll",
is the first L clear and the second dark? Or are they both dark?
Personally I am unable to perceive any difference between one L sound
and another. (I accept though that there may be differences and that
it's just that I'm unable to hear them.)
-Shez.
--
______________________________________________________
A straw vote only shows which way the hot air blows.
-- O'Henry
______________________________________________________
Take a break at the Last Stop Cafe: http://www.xerez.demon.co.uk/
Trinker
Shez wrote:
> Personally I am unable to perceive any difference between one L sound
> and another. (I accept though that there may be differences and that
> it's just that I'm unable to hear them.)
Technically speaking, what that means is that the two sounds are
not "phonemic" in English/languages you are familiar with. I've
always found it interesting to observe what Vietnamese students
will do to English, as it's quite illustrative of what is and
isn't phonemic in Vietnamese.
Juuichirou Tendou
Japanese. The (presumably Japanese) experimenter fed it "lah lee loo leh loh",
I think.
Could you write your name with the "maru" kanji, Lei?
Fabian
"Shez" <ne...@xerez.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:xh1qoPEH...@xerez.nospam.co.uk...
> Sebastian Hew <rada...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >"Sceadu" <aeona...@hotmail.com.removethis> wrote in message
> >news:uKVN7.942$_f.3...@dfw-read.news.verio.net...
> >> \ l \ as in lily, pool. In words such as battle and fiddle the \l\
is a
> >syllabic
> >> consonant. (See the section on \&\ above.)
> >
> >The <l> in 'lily' and 'pool' are pronounced differently: the former is
clear
> >whereas the latter is dark.
>
> I'm unclear whether the two 'l' sounds are determined by the
> accompanying vowel or the position in the word. For instance in "loll",
> is the first L clear and the second dark? Or are they both dark?
>
> Personally I am unable to perceive any difference between one L sound
> and another. (I accept though that there may be differences and that
> it's just that I'm unable to hear them.)
In most British dialects, the difference is largely a matter of position
within the word. Syllable initial L is clear. Syllable final L is dark.
Other dialects may differ, as noted earlier.
Paul Blay
>
> Technically speaking, what that means is that the two sounds are
> not "phonemic" in English/languages you are familiar with. I've
> always found it interesting to observe what Vietnamese students
> will do to English, as it's quite illustrative of what is and
> isn't phonemic in Vietnamese.
What surprises me is that there do not appear to be decent tools to
extend your phonemic range (or however you say that ^_^; ).
A long time back I came across a simple computer program being
demonstrated on TV to enable people to distinguish L from R (IIRC).
The basic method was that the computer produced sounds that
exaggerated the typical difference between L and R and got the user
to click the matching key. The sounds would then get closer together,
as the users score got better until he would get decent scores even
on quite small differences.
It was purported to be highly sucessful. I'd have thought such a thing
would be easy to set-up given the collaboration of one computer guy/gal
with one acoustic guy/gal. But I've never found something like it on the
net.
pMAC
She was Japanese.
A Japanese teacher I worked with said, it is ridiculous, it should be spelt
with an 'R'.
I told him, 'She can spell it however she likes in English'... even if it is
a Japanese name.
It sounds better with an 'L' than an 'R' anyway.
He sees 'L' & 'R' in a diffelent way now.
If you really want to sound Japanese when you speak English, just pronounce
all the 'L's as 'R's and all the 'R's as 'L's.
It works evely time.
--
Sincelery yours,
Peter McEntyre,
ICQ# 7082799
E-mail: py...@ceres.dti.ne.jp
Our Homepage:: http://www.ceres.dti.ne.jp/~pyms/index.htm
Dave Fossett
> I once had a student called Lisa spelt with an 'L'.
> She was Japanese.
> A Japanese teacher I worked with said, it is ridiculous, it should be
spelt
> with an 'R'.
>
> I told him, 'She can spell it however she likes in English'... even if
it is
> a Japanese name.
>
> It sounds better with an 'L' than an 'R' anyway.
I agree it probably does sound better with an "L", but one way to deal
with Japanese people who insist on customized spellings of their names
is to ask them what is written in their passport. Names have to be
romanized correctly (Hepburn-style) in Japanese passports.
--
Dave Fossett
Saitama, JAPAN
Daniel Beckham
and pool are the same. A real difference is a letter's sound would be the
difference between father and Abraham or sight and fish.
Daniel
"Sebastian Hew" <rada...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3c0836b7$0$12226$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Trinker
I'm rather startled that there isn't a linguistics grad student
out there somewhere who's done this already.
Trinker
pMAC wrote:
>
> I once had a student called Lisa spelt with an 'L'.
> She was Japanese.
> A Japanese teacher I worked with said, it is ridiculous, it should be spelt
> with an 'R'.
>
> I told him, 'She can spell it however she likes in English'... even if it is
> a Japanese name.
>
> It sounds better with an 'L' than an 'R' anyway.
>
> He sees 'L' & 'R' in a diffelent way now.
>
> If you really want to sound Japanese when you speak English, just pronounce
> all the 'L's as 'R's and all the 'R's as 'L's.
>
> It works evely time.
Heh...if you want to sound like a *Hollywood* Japanese.
Fabian
"Daniel Beckham" <dan...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:fUMO7.88164$lV4.11...@e420r-atl1.usenetserver.com...
> The difference is created by the vowels near the letter. The 'l' in
lilly
> and pool are the same. A real difference is a letter's sound would be
the
> difference between father and Abraham or sight and fish.
>
> Daniel
Dan, I can well believe that may apply to your personal idiolect of
English. can you honestly say that applies to every dialect in English?
I am reminded of this guy who wanted to learn every Japanese accent. You
seem to claim to know every English accent.
Fact is, this distinction, based on position within a syllable, is very
well documented. If you want to disprove this, we'll need something better
than your say-so.
Daniel Beckham
Daniel
"Fabian" <mu...@chung.ii> wrote in message
news:9ugff4$rol$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
Bart Mathias
> I'm unclear whether the two 'l' sounds are determined by the
> accompanying vowel or the position in the word. For instance in
> "loll", is the first L clear and the second dark? Or are they both
> dark?
If you have sound editing capabilities on your computer (or
otherwise--I originally did this sort of thing with a wire recorder
many years ago), record yourself saying "loll" (do it monotone) and
then play it backwards. You'll be surprised.
Bart
Don Kirkman
<fUMO7.88164$lV4.11...@e420r-atl1.usenetserver.com>:
>The difference is created by the vowels near the letter. The 'l' in lilly
>and pool are the same. A real difference is a letter's sound would be the
>difference between father and Abraham or sight and fish.
Which of the three 'l's in lilly (a girl's name, not the two-elled
flower) is the same as the one in pool? In lilly the els either come at
the beginning of a syllable (for someone who cuts cleanly between
syllables and pronounces the double l as a single) or you have two at
the front of a syllable and one trailing, which *would* match the
trailing 'l' in pool.
>"Sebastian Hew" <rada...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:3c0836b7$0$12226$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
>> "Sceadu" <aeona...@hotmail.com.removethis> wrote in message
>> news:uKVN7.942$_f.3...@dfw-read.news.verio.net...
>> > As far as I know, there's only one pronunciation of L in English...
>> Merriam-Webster sez:
>> > \ l \ as in lily, pool. In words such as battle and fiddle the \l\ is
>a
>> syllabic
>> > consonant. (See the section on \&\ above.)
>> The <l> in 'lily' and 'pool' are pronounced differently: the former is
>clear
>> whereas the latter is dark.
>> > I'm honestly curious what your second pronunciation is.
>> I don't know which one you're calling the first pronunciation, but the two
>> are clear 'l' and dark 'l'.
--
Don
don...@covad.net
Lei Tanabe
"Juuichirou Tendou" <juuichi...@ranmamail.com> wrote
> Could you write your name with the "maru" kanji, Lei?
"maru" kanji towa nanzo ya?
Lei
Paul Blay
>
> Paul Blay wrote:
> >
> > What surprises me is that there do not appear to be decent tools to
> > extend your phonemic range (or however you say that ^_^; ).
> >
> > A long time back I came across a simple computer program being
> > demonstrated on TV to enable people to distinguish L from R (IIRC).
> > The basic method was that the computer produced sounds that
> > exaggerated the typical difference between L and R and got the user
> > to click the matching key. The sounds would then get closer together,
> > as the users score got better until he would get decent scores even
> > on quite small differences.
> >
> > It was purported to be highly sucessful. I'd have thought such a thing
> > would be easy to set-up given the collaboration of one computer guy/gal
> > with one acoustic guy/gal. But I've never found something like it on the
> > net.
>
> I'm rather startled that there isn't a linguistics grad student
> out there somewhere who's done this already.
I don't think it was what I was thinking of ... but I found the following noted in
a bibliography on the web.
Akahane-Yamada, R., Bradlow, A.R., Pisoni, D.B., Tohkura, Y. (1997). Effects of
audio-visual training on the identification of English /r/ and /l/ by Japanese
speakers. the Journal of the Acoustic Society of America, 102, No. 5, Pt. 2.
p.3137. Presented at 134th meetng of the Acoustical Society of America,
November, 1997.
Of course what I really need is something to help me see / hear what I'm
missing in hearing / speaking Japanese ...
Juuichirou Tendou
> I agree it probably does sound better with an "L", but one way to deal
> with Japanese people who insist on customized spellings of their names
> is to ask them what is written in their passport. Names have to be
> romanized correctly (Hepburn-style) in Japanese passports.
>
Juuichirou
Juichiro
Juuichiroo
Juuichirou Tendou
> > I once had a student called Lisa spelt with an 'L'.
In kana, was it "ri" "sa"?
Juuichirou Tendou
> > Could you write your name with the "maru" kanji, Lei?
> "maru" kanji towa nanzo ya?
> Lei
Maru, rei, zero, 0 <-- sono kanji.
Yakyuu wo shitara, Lei-san no bangou ha "0" desu ne.
Kono kanji ga daisuki desu.
Lei Tanabe
"Juuichirou Tendou" <juuichi...@ranmamail.com> wrote
>
> > I agree it probably does sound better with an "L", but one way to deal
> > with Japanese people who insist on customized spellings of their names
> > is to ask them what is written in their passport. Names have to be
> > romanized correctly (Hepburn-style) in Japanese passports.
> >
> So, which is it?
>
> Juuichirou
> Juichiro
> Juuichiroo
I assume usually an Anglicised form (modified Hepburn-romaji) is used in the
passport, but ordinary romaji expressions might be accepted.
I recall my Brit friend once complained about the rigid attitude of the
officials.
Her son has Japanese nationality as her husband is Japanese.
When the son applied his passport, the officials insisted to spell his name
as "Adamu".
Lei
Lei Tanabe
"Juuichirou Tendou" <juuichi...@ranmamail.com> wrote
>
I like that kanji either.
Alas, it would have been great if my parents had named me with it!
Lei
Trinker
Lei Tanabe wrote:
>
> "Juuichirou Tendou" <juuichi...@ranmamail.com> wrote
> > Maru, rei, zero, 0 <-- sono kanji.
> >
> > Kono kanji ga daisuki desu.
>
> I like that kanji either.
...as well.
(Although I suspect somewhere in the hinterlands, there is a new
movement to say " I like that either ", just like "People []
anymore" with no negative.)
> Alas, it would have been great if my parents had named me with it!
Rename yourself!
Juuichirou Tendou
news:3C0D6646...@yahoo.com...
>
> Rename yourself!
Why not?!
I am trying to figure out what Lei Tanabe's name would look like on a meishi.
What are the kanji for "Tanabe"? ENAMDICT gived numerous possibilities and I
don't know which is correct.
Mailgate.org is too occidental for me: kanji ya kana wo kuu zo! (Can you say
that in Japanese?)
I don't think Lei has spelled her name in kanji here, has she?
I am trying to make nengajo with calligraphy on them. I am using all-kana
calligraphy. I cannot write kanji well. Actually, this is stupid, but usually
in handwritten Japanese I prefer to write as a four- or five-year-old might,
all hiragana, no katakana or kanji.
Are there many Japanese who avoid the use of katakana by replacing it with
hiragana? I think there would be!
I hate signs, logos, etc., in katakana, much of the time, as katakana tend to
look alike. Sometimes when done skillfully, it is very cool, but most of the
time they look alike. Katakana can be cool like on my Love Hina hinata girls
album. What I love is this: Often, somebody will say, "It's in Japanese, I
can't read it," but it is not in Japanese, it is in English! It is not in
Japanese except the lettering!
Hi-na-ta-ga-a-ru-zu-so-n-gu-be-su-to-ra-bu-hi-na. "Hinata girls song best love
hina". Easy. It is weird how to read Japanese hiragana and katakana and how
this works!! Like one game said in hiragana "ri-n-gu-a-u-to" and "go-o-ru-i-n".
Lei Tanabe
"Trinker" <trinke...@yahoo.com> wrote
> > >
> > > Kono kanji ga daisuki desu.
> >
> > I like that kanji either.
>
> ...as well.
Thanks.
> > Alas, it would have been great if my parents had named me with it!
>
> Rename yourself!
I did.
I changed to "Lei".
Lei
Juuichirou Tendou
> I did.
> I changed to "Lei".
>
> Lei
Hana no lei desu ka?
Juuichirou Tendou
> When the son applied his passport, the officials insisted to spell his name
> as "Adamu".
>
> Lei
Zan'nen ne.....
If they want to use kana, why don't they just f@@king use KANA?!!!
pMAC
> > > I once had a student called Lisa spelt with an 'L'.
>
> In kana, was it "ri" "sa"?
Yes.
SARABAGAN
Very few Japanese can pronounce them as different letters,
for example "rock" and "lock".
Indeed, Japanese pronounce "r" as "l",
they never pronounce "arigatou".
"aligatou" is more correct.
Juuichirou Tendou
> > In kana, was it "ri" "sa"?
>
>
> Yes.
Anybody who insists that a female Japanese named
| | \
| | ---\--
' | ,--`
/ \____
(ri) (sa)
living in America NOT call herself "Lisa" with an "L", I suspect of either
racism or useless pedantry. If you want to be a purist, NEVER call a "Maria"
/m&ri&/, but ALWAYS /maria/. If she is Japanese, I might call her /malia/ or
/ma li a/ if I am playing around. (Word-initial Japanese R is difficult to
pronounce, isn't it? Also, when a Japanese is being emphatic, I think it comes
out as L a lot.) But then she might thing I am making fun of her. But in song,
it IS /ma li a/, right? If you sing "Ma-ri-a" as /ma li a/, I think you are
making a conscious effort to avoid L.
To me, in the context of Japanese, calling /l/ and /r/ different sounds is like
calling "shichi" and "nana" different digits. That reminds me about a joke I
have in my mind about 2 twins on a baseball team, where both wear number 7, but
one twin has furigana pronounced "shichi" and the other has furigana pronounced
"nana".
As Keiichirou put it once, in Japanese "there is only Ra Ri Ru Re Ro." And
thank the butchers at Micro$opht for making "la" produce small "a". JWPce does
this better. But I DO admire this: You can type romaji "gooku" and get Arabic
numerals "500,000,000".
When in "romaji --> kana input mode", a word processor should treat L and R
identically.
Juuichirou Tendou
> making a conscious effort to avoid L.
>
Bart Mathias
> I often mistake the spell of English words "r" or "l".
Very strange, in light of what you say below!
> Very few Japanese can pronounce them as different letters, for
> example "rock" and "lock".
> Indeed, Japanese pronounce "r" as "l", they never pronounce
> "arigatou". "aligatou" is more correct.
If this is true, then Japanese should never have trouble with "l,"
spelling or pronunciation.
"Lock" should be easy. If it's hard, it must be "rock." Simple
mnemonic, no more spelling errors!
Bart
Don Kirkman
<d0df76e742b30df0ae3...@mygate.mailgate.org>:
>> > In kana, was it "ri" "sa"?
>> Yes.
>Anybody who insists that a female Japanese named
[りさ]
>living in America NOT call herself "Lisa" with an "L", I suspect of either
>racism or useless pedantry. If you want to be a purist, NEVER call a "Maria"
>/m&ri&/, but ALWAYS /maria/. If she is Japanese, I might call her /malia/ or
>/ma li a/ if I am playing around. (Word-initial Japanese R is difficult to
>pronounce, isn't it? Also, when a Japanese is being emphatic, I think it comes
>out as L a lot.) But then she might thing I am making fun of her. But in song,
>it IS /ma li a/, right? If you sing "Ma-ri-a" as /ma li a/, I think you are
>making a conscious effort to avoid L.
They call the wind 'Ma-rye-a.'
At least they do while painting their wagon. (1950s (?) musical show)
It seems to me that the popular singer Ms. Carey is also a 'Ma-rye-a.'
>To me, in the context of Japanese, calling /l/ and /r/ different sounds is like
>calling "shichi" and "nana" different digits. That reminds me about a joke I
>have in my mind about 2 twins on a baseball team, where both wear number 7, but
>one twin has furigana pronounced "shichi" and the other has furigana pronounced
>"nana".
> As Keiichirou put it once, in Japanese "there is only Ra Ri Ru Re Ro." And
>thank the butchers at Micro$opht for making "la" produce small "a". JWPce does
>this better. But I DO admire this: You can type romaji "gooku" and get Arabic
>numerals "500,000,000".
>When in "romaji --> kana input mode", a word processor should treat L and R
>identically.
--
Trinker
Heh. I once drove someone crazy by claiming that "ra ri ru re
ro" fluctuates all over the r/l spectrum, and is neither R nor
L.
Bart Mathias
> Heh. I once drove someone crazy by claiming that "ra ri ru re ro"
> fluctuates all over the r/l spectrum, and is neither R nor L.
What was the matter with that someone? You're pretty much right.
The Japanese "r" probably just about never becomes the semi-vowel
that most dialects of English have for "r" at the beginning of a
syllable, but there's quite a variety of taps and trills (if we
include chimpirago), with greater and lesser lateralness (the "l"
sound).
Bart
Trinker
Bart Mathias wrote:
>
> "Trinker" writes:
>
> > Heh. I once drove someone crazy by claiming that "ra ri ru re ro"
> > fluctuates all over the r/l spectrum, and is neither R nor L.
>
> What was the matter with that someone? You're pretty much right.
They wanted something *regular*. Or so they said. I never got
to find out how they might have reacted to my further mischievous
revelation that it's "ha hi hu" in some transliterations, but that
it's often written as "fu", and yet it's not fa fi fu... And
"sa shi", not "sa si", etc. I suspect they were mislead by the
transliteration systems that write "ta ti tu", too.
> The Japanese "r" probably just about never becomes the semi-vowel
> that most dialects of English have for "r" at the beginning of a
> syllable, but there's quite a variety of taps and trills (if we
> include chimpirago), with greater and lesser lateralness (the "l"
> sound).
It makes the Japanese confusion with "l" and "r" in English and
other languages seem to *reasonable*, doesn't it? ;)
Michalkun
the sound. It's all the same to them if it sounds more like r or more like
l. The only advantage other people who speak other langugaes have that they
can hear more words and more sounds, so for them it's completly a different
sound.
"SARABAGAN" <b...@ymete.com> wrote in message news:3C0E3B...@ymete.com...
Michalkun
come from original language and romanized so we can read and pronounce.
"SARABAGAN" <b...@ymete.com> wrote in message news:3C0E3B...@ymete.com...
Cindy
> and romaji isn't their true alphabet, just similarization of syllables that
> come from original language and romanized so we can read and pronounce.
And romaji isn't Japanese so that anybody can deliver public announcements
without knowing the meaning of the message. They don't even know where they
have made the fatal mistake.
Recent reported mistake:
When the fasten seatbelt sign was illuminated, "minasama, tadaima shiito beruto
chakuyou sain ga kiemashita." was announced.
I didn't ask Tomoyo how this discrepancy was cleaned up, but my suggestion is:
When you realize that you've made a mistake or have announced wrong information
like above, you should immediately announce "taihen shitsurei itashimashita.
shiito beruto chakuyou no sain ga tsukimashita." and DO NOT repeat the same
sentence from the BEGINNING. That's a sign of genuine fake speakers.
Sean Holland
redbr...@mailexpire.com wrote on 12/19/01 7:54 PM:
> ... similarization of syllables ...
That is a wonderful word. I think we should add it to the English
language.
James D. Beard
This seems to be working, though how I got katakana for the deeta I
do not know, and the nigori for the ga and the te did not appear on
my screen until the screen was refreshed.
Does anyone else use kinput under Linux?
jim b.
Johan Van Gompel
> ???????kinput2??????????????
>
> This seems to be working, though how I got katakana for the deeta I
> do not know, and the nigori for the ga and the te did not appear on
> my screen until the screen was refreshed.
>
> Does anyone else use kinput under Linux?
No, but I want to. Enlighten me. ;-)
--
Johan Van Gompel
http://johanvg.dyndns.org
Debian GNU/Linux 2.4.17 on Athlon 1400/512 MB
Shu-yu Guo
> ???????kinput2??????????????
>
> This seems to be working, though how I got katakana for the deeta I
> do not know, and the nigori for the ga and the te did not appear on
> my screen until the screen was refreshed.
You would get the katakana of something you typed by pressing space a
couple of times until it cycled to it in the selection, or if you press
down or up arrows it cycles through the hiragana, katakana, half-width
katakana, and the romaji.
I'm not understanding what you mean by the "screen was refreshed".
>
> Does anyone else use kinput under Linux?
>
I use it under FreeBSD, should be the same otherwise.
--
Shu
James D. Beard
> James D. Beard wrote:
>
>
>>???????kinput2??????????????
>>
>>This seems to be working, though how I got katakana for the deeta I
>>do not know, and the nigori for the ga and the te did not appear on
>>my screen until the screen was refreshed.
More odd, when this came back to my machine, downloaded, everything
except kinput2 of my first line displayed as question marks. And
changing to a different Japanese encoding did nothing for it.
Looked fine when I sent it off the first time. But now.....
Shu-yu Guo wrote:
You would get the katakana of something you typed by pressing space a
> couple of times until it cycled to it in the selection, or if you
press
> down or up arrows it cycles through the hiragana, katakana,
half-width
> katakana, and the romaji.
I think hitting the hyphen while inputting hiragana put it into
katakana. I will try the arrow keys and space bar and see if that
cycles things.
ダメ。なに？ ok. hitting the space bar walks me through the
possible choices, with the katakana among them. Is there any way to
simply enter katakana one after another without conversion?
> I'm not understanding what you mean by the "screen was refreshed".
When I first hit the enter key, the kana appeared without the nigori
marks. If I hit page down and then page up to cause the screen to
be redrawn, the nigori marks would be there. Odd.
>>Does anyone else use kinput under Linux?
>>
>>
> I use it under FreeBSD, should be the same otherwise.
True. Unless you have an alternate key mapping. There is provision
for such a thing, but I have yet to go through the file and see
exactly what it does (if indeed I can figure that out!).
Thank you for your response.
jim b.
James D. Beard
> James D. Beard wrote:
>
>
>>???????kinput2??????????????
>>
>>This seems to be working, though how I got katakana for the deeta I
>>do not know, and the nigori for the ga and the te did not appear on
>>my screen until the screen was refreshed.
More odd, when this came back to my machine, downloaded, everything
except kinput2 of my first line displayed as question marks. And
changing to a different Japanese encoding did nothing for it.
Looked fine when I sent it off the first time. But now.....
Shu-yu Guo wrote:
You would get the katakana of something you typed by pressing space a
> couple of times until it cycled to it in the selection, or if you
press
> down or up arrows it cycles through the hiragana, katakana,
half-width
> katakana, and the romaji.
I think hitting the hyphen while inputting hiragana put it into
katakana. I will try the arrow keys and space bar and see if that
cycles things.
ダメ。なに？ ok. hitting the space bar walks me through the
possible choices, with the katakana among them. Is there any way to
simply enter katakana one after another without conversion?
> I'm not understanding what you mean by the "screen was refreshed".
When I first hit the enter key, the kana appeared without the nigori
marks. If I hit page down and then page up to cause the screen to
be redrawn, the nigori marks would be there. Odd.
>>Does anyone else use kinput under Linux?
>>
>>
> I use it under FreeBSD, should be the same otherwise.