"to omou" & "to omotte iru"
Jimmy Hsu
Does "to omou' generally refer to "I think" and "to omotte iru" to
"HE/SHE think". Let me be more specific:
a) Kare wa ashita no kaigi ni shusseki dekinai to omoimasu.
I think he cannot attend tomorrow's meeting.
b) Kare wa ashita no kaigi ni shusseki dekinai to omotte imasu.
HE thinks he cannot attend tomorrow's meeting.
However, "to omotte iru" is often used with "watashi" too. Using the
example above, I think you could also say:
c) Watashi wa kare ga ashita no kaigi ni shusseki dekinai to omotte
imasu.
I am presently thinking that he cannot attend tomorrow's meeting.
The "to omou", on the other hand, works only with "watashi" and not
kare/anata":
Kare wa sore ga tadashiku nai to omoimasu. (X)
or
Anata mo sore wo kansei suru chikara ga aru to omoimasu ne.
Anybody any comments?
Charles Eicher
> Does "to omou' generally refer to "I think" and "to omotte iru" to
> "HE/SHE think". Let me be more specific:
Are you sure you're not thinking of 'to omowarete iru'...?
I've never ever heard 'omotte iru' in actual use. There doesn't seem to be
much distinction between the stative case, 'omotte iru' and the regular
case 'omou'.. Its like the difference between 'thinks' and 'is thinking'..
This whole issue of 'omou' verbs has been bothering me lately. There's a
ton of compound verbs, they seem to carry more subtlety of meaning than
just changing case (i.e. omotte iru, omowareru).. I'm still trying to
understand the subtleties of these verbs:
omoishiru: to come to know
omoidasu: to come to mind, to think of
omoiataru: to come to mind, recall
omoiukaberu: to bring to mind
omoiokosu: remember, recollect
omoitatsu: to think of, to make up one's mind
omoitsuku: to think of
This list is by no means exhaustive, but are the most similar in meaning.
And, of course, there's a similar set for 'kangaeru'...
Comments?
| Charles Eicher |
| -=- |
| cei...@inav.net |
muchan
Jimmy wrote:
> Does "to omou' generally refer to "I think" and "to omotte iru" to
> "HE/SHE think". Let me be more specific:
>
NO. It's not about "person" of the verb but just question of
"aspect of the verb"
For English translation, I don know if it's meaningful to distinguish
clearly, but "ommote-iru" has a aspect as "state of present time".
So for now I say "ommote iru" has a feeling of "for now" where
plane "omou" is just "think" without information of time.
muchan
muchan
> > Does "to omou' generally refer to "I think" and "to omotte iru" to
> > "HE/SHE think". Let me be more specific:
>
>
> I've never ever heard 'omotte iru' in actual use. There doesn't seem to be
> much distinction between the stative case, 'omotte iru' and the regular
> case 'omou'.. Its like the difference between 'thinks' and 'is thinking'..
I think you never "noticed" "ommote iru" in actual use. We often say
"ommote-ru" as short form of "ommotte-iru".
About usage/meaning, I wrote in differnt article. so cut.
>
> This whole issue of 'omou' verbs has been bothering me lately. There's a
> ton of compound verbs, they seem to carry more subtlety of meaning than
> just changing case (i.e. omotte iru, omowareru).. I'm still trying to
> understand the subtleties of these verbs:
>
> omoishiru: to come to know
> omoidasu: to come to mind, to think of
> omoiataru: to come to mind, recall
> omoiukaberu: to bring to mind
> omoiokosu: remember, recollect
> omoitatsu: to think of, to make up one's mind
> omoitsuku: to think of
>
> This list is by no means exhaustive, but are the most similar in meaning.
> And, of course, there's a similar set for 'kangaeru'...
>
> Comments?
>
I this thread contined from my "omou in heart or mind?" thread?
I got too few comment and wnat more!
muchan
Gerald B Mathias
Charles Eicher (cei...@inav.net) wrote:
: In article <329531...@pacific.net.sg>, Jimmy Hsu <jh...@pacific.net.sg> wrote:
: > Does "to omou' generally refer to "I think" and "to omotte iru" to
: > "HE/SHE think". Let me be more specific:
I'll go along with Jimmy, to the extent that it is hard to find an example
of "kare-wa soo omoimasu" or the like. You put thoughts in someone else's
mind, generally, only if you are his/her creator, such as the author of a
story about them.
"Kare-wa soo omotte imasu" for some reason doesn't seem quite so bad,
though I would chicken out and make it "omotte iru-soo-da."
: Are you sure you're not thinking of 'to omowarete iru'...?
: This whole issue of 'omou' verbs has been bothering me lately. There's a
: ton of compound verbs, they seem to carry more subtlety of meaning than
: just changing case (i.e. omotte iru, omowareru).. I'm still trying to
: understand the subtleties of these verbs:
: omoishiru: to come to know
or, to realize
: omoidasu: to come to mind, to think of
to BRING (back) to mind. (Not intransitive)
: omoiataru: to come to mind, recall
to (happen to correctly) think of
: omoiukaberu: to bring to mind
: omoiokosu: remember, recollect
: omoitatsu: to think of, to make up one's mind
: omoitsuku: to think of
to get an idea/the idea [of]
: This list is by no means exhaustive, but are the most similar in meaning.
: And, of course, there's a similar set for 'kangaeru'...
: Comments?
The above little ones.
Bart
Michitaka Suzuki
Jimmy Hsu <jh...@pacific.net.sg> wrote:
>Does "to omou' generally refer to "I think" and "to omotte iru" to
>"HE/SHE think". Let me be more specific:
>
> I think he cannot attend tomorrow's meeting.
>
> b) Kare wa ashita no kaigi ni shusseki dekinai to omotte imasu.
> HE thinks he cannot attend tomorrow's meeting.
Interesting!
Watashi wa sou _omou_.
Kimi wa sou _omou_ ka ?
Kare wa sou _omotte iru_.
cf. Kare wa sou _omou_. <?>
'omou' is a mental activity which others cannot perceive directly.
So, 'omou' is not (often) used for the third person. It's used in
statements about the first person, or in questions about the second
person, as the above examples.
'omotte iru' probably means an intellectual state formed by a
one-time action 'omotta', like 'shitte iru' by 'shitta'. Others
_can_ perceive his intellectual state by talking to him or observing
him, so 'omotte iru' can be properly used in statements about the
third person.
A similar thing which comes to my mind is the contrast between
'itai' and 'itagatte iru'. You cannot really feel a pain of the
third person. The only thing you can perceive is his gesture of
'itagaru' caused by the pain.
Watashi wa ha ga _itai_.
Kimi wa ha ga _itai_ ka?
Kare wa ha _wo_ _itagatteiru_.
cf. Kare wa ha ga _itai_. <?>
Cheers,
Mitch
Michitaka Suzuki
muchan
Mitch wrote about Jimmy's question:
> 'omou' is a mental activity which others cannot perceive directly.
> So, 'omou' is not (often) used for the third person. It's used in
> statements about the first person, or in questions about the second
> person, as the above examples.
> 'omotte iru' probably means an intellectual state formed by a
> one-time action 'omotta', like 'shitte iru' by 'shitta'. Others
> _can_ perceive his intellectual state by talking to him or observing
> him, so 'omotte iru' can be properly used in statements about the
> third person.
Ya, this is interesting.
Gramatical differnce reflect to differnt usage, ne.
'omou' is to short time aspect to talk about third person's
thinking, 'omotte ir' as state is used for sure.
'omotte iru' is used in first, second, third person, but 'omou' is
used rarely in third person. OK.
> A similar thing which comes to my mind is the contrast between
>'itai' and 'itagatte iru'. You cannot really feel a pain of the
>third person. The only thing you can perceive is his gesture of
>'itagaru' caused by the pain.
>
> Watashi wa ha ga _itai_.
> Kimi wa ha ga _itai_ ka?
> Kare wa ha _wo_ _itagatteiru_.
> cf. Kare wa ha ga _itai_. <?>
Tatoeba oishashan-ga, naiteru kodomo-no kawari-ni okaasan-ni
"doko-ga itai-no?" toka...
I feel too conservative, but I see here the differnce as
'itai' as adj. and 'itagaru' as verb.
itamu vs. itagaru looks more interesting...
The moment I start to feel myself old?
:)
muchan
John Reeves
in a similar vein to Jimmy's question...
(mae ni mensetsu o ume ni kite)
(1) hatarakasete moraeru ka dou ka shiritai n' desu ga...
(2) hatarakasete moraeru ka dou ka shiritai to omotte,
denwa kaketa n' desu ga...
what subtle differeces are there between (1) and (2)? and is it
possible to make any kind of generalisation about the contrast
between "-tai to omou" and plain "-tai"?
my guess: (1) and (2) are both QUESTIONS (ie they are both
demanding information). they are both INDIRECT because they are
both realised as DECLARITIVES. a more direct realisation would be
via an INTERROGATIVE, eg "hatarakasete moraemasu ka".
anyway, indirectness comes in degrees, and my (NNS) hunch is that
(2) is less direct than (1). yes? no?
also it seems that there is a strong relationship between indirectness
and politeness in both Japanese and English, although the methods
each language allows are often very different. however, it also
seems that this relationship only applies in certain circumstances.
specifically, QUESTIONS (demanding information) and COMMANDS (which
demand goods and services) and also requests for permission. other
speech functions can be very brief and direct.
so.. what do others think about directness and politeness? and are
there any semantic differences between "-tai to omou" and "-tai"
other than this?
john
Gerald B Mathias
John Reeves (jre...@extro.ucc.su.oz.au) wrote:
: (1) hatarakasete moraeru ka dou ka shiritai n' desu ga...
: (2) hatarakasete moraeru ka dou ka shiritai to omotte,
: denwa kaketa n' desu ga...
: what subtle differeces are there between (1) and (2)? and is it
: possible to make any kind of generalisation about the contrast
: between "-tai to omou" and plain "-tai"?
: my guess: (1) and (2) are both QUESTIONS (ie they are both
: demanding information). they are both INDIRECT because they are
: both realised as DECLARITIVES. a more direct realisation would be
: via an INTERROGATIVE, eg "hatarakasete moraemasu ka".
: anyway, indirectness comes in degrees, and my (NNS) hunch is that
: (2) is less direct than (1). yes? no?
'Swat I'd say. "I'd like to ..." vs. "I want to ..."
Bart