Ono no Komachi
Zoltan Barczikay
please somebody help me interpreting this poem of Ono no Komachi:
(Kokinshu #656):
うつつにはさもこそあらめ夢にさへ人めをよくと見るがわびしさ
Utsutsu ni wa
samokoso arame
yume ni sae
hitome o yoku to
mirugawabishisa
What is "見るがわびしさ"? What is the meaning of "yoku" in this poem?
Thank you in advance.
Zoltan.
http://www.classical-japanese.net/
Bart Mathias
ZB> please somebody help me interpreting this poem of Ono no Komachi:
ZB> (Kokinshu #656):
ZB> うつつにはさもこそあらめ夢にさへ人めをよくと見るがわびしさ
ZB> Utsutsu ni wa
ZB> samokoso arame
ZB> yume ni sae
ZB> hitome o yoku to
ZB> mirugawabishisa
ZB> What is "見るがわびしさ"? What is the meaning of "yoku" in this
ZB> poem?
It's been a while since anybody offered a good "puzzel" to this NG; I
can't resist taking a swing at, foul ball though the result may be.
Your last two questions are fairly easy, though I'm wondering if
there is a double entrendre involved.
"miru-ga wabishisa" means something like "the forlornness of
looking," and perhaps more freely, "How forlorn it makes me feel to
see ..."
"yoku" is a verb (yok-, becomes yoke- in NJ) meaning "avoid." The
difficult part of this poem seems to me to be the "... yoku-to miru"
part.
A shiyaku (making no attempt at poetic meter or rhyme):
It is probably so,
At least in the real world.
But how disheartening to see
He wants to avoid my eyes
Even in my dreams.
Bart
westerfluss
"Bart Mathias" <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote in
message
news:V1.Z0.tD2VA9...@hawaii.edu...
> "ZB" == "Zoltan Barczikay" writes:
>
> ZB> please somebody help me interpreting this
poem of Ono no Komachi:
> ZB> (Kokinshu #656):
>
> ZB>
��畋�對齦���鉗��
�畋�黶迴謠齒�癇瘢��畋�﨑辣�鉗�黶��畋�蓍�辣��尞謨��
�畋�迚鴣艨�砠鼈蜩���畋�怦癆�蜩��ぢ見るがわびしさ"? What is the
indeed it is to see even in my dreams that I avoid
those eyes.
I understood this way.
Westerfluss
Bart Mathias
w> "Bart Mathias" <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote
w> > "ZB" == "Zoltan Barczikay" writes:
w> >
w> > ZB> please somebody help me interpreting this
w> poem of Ono no Komachi:
w> > ZB> (Kokinshu #656):
..
w> > ZB> Utsutsu ni wa
w> > ZB> samokoso arame
w> > ZB> yume ni sae
w> > ZB> hitome o yoku to
w> > ZB> mirugawabishisa
w> > A shiyaku (making no attempt at poetic meter or
w> rhyme):
w> >
w> > It is probably so,
w> > At least in the real world.
w> > But how disheartening to see
w> > He wants to avoid my eyes
w> > Even in my dreams.
w> >
w> I'm avoiding the eyes of the people but how sad indeed it is to
w> see even in my dreams that I avoid those eyes.
w>
w> I understood this way.
That avoids my convoluted handling of "hitome" as "others' eyes (from
his point of view)," and then making "myself" the only "hito" who
counts. Maybe the idea of avoiding the eyes of someone of the
opposite sex doesn't even make sense in a Heian setting, with all the
screens and fans.
But I don't see the "-m-" of "arame" in your interpretation. And,
probably again because I don't know enough about Heian life, I don't
see the point of the whole poem. If she doesn't like to avoid
people's eyes even in dreams, why does she do it in real life? This
poem needs too many footnotes.
Mine may be "F" for accuracy, but bonus points for being easy to
understand raise it to a C-.
Bart
westerfluss
''hitome'' as ''hitome wo shinobu koi'' is memorized in the brain. It
is surprising to find that she felt ''wabishii'' in keeping on
avoiding others eyes in the same way as the contemporaty women do.
> But I don't see the "-m-" of "arame" in your interpretation. And,
> probably again because I don't know enough about Heian life, I don't
> see the point of the whole poem. If she doesn't like to avoid
> people's eyes even in dreams, why does she do it in real life? This
> poem needs too many footnotes.
>
I'm not sure but is it meireikei of ''aru''?
> Mine may be "F" for accuracy, but bonus points for being easy to
> understand raise it to a C-.
>
Yes you taught us the most difficult part, ''yoku''.
Westerfluss
Anthony J. Bryant
> But I don't see the "-m-" of "arame" in your interpretation. And,
> > probably again because I don't know enough about Heian life, I don't
> > see the point of the whole poem. If she doesn't like to avoid
> > people's eyes even in dreams, why does she do it in real life? This
> > poem needs too many footnotes.
> >
> I'm not sure but is it meireikei of ''aru''?
>
In Classical J, the meireikei of "ari" is "are".
Tony
westerfluss
"Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbr...@indiana.edu> wrote in message
news:3B158A7A...@indiana.edu...
Westerfluss
Lei Tanabe
"westerfluss" <nish...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:9f3tk6$srn$04$1...@news.t-online.com...
> "Bart Mathias" <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote in message
> news:X2.11.uD2IAX...@hawaii.edu...
> > "w" == "westerfluss" writes:
> > w> "Bart Mathias" <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote
> > w> > "ZB" == "Zoltan Barczikay" writes:
> > ..
> > w> > ZB> Utsutsu ni wa
> > w> > ZB> samokoso arame
> > w> > ZB> yume ni sae
> > w> > ZB> hitome o yoku to
> > w> > ZB> mirugawabishisa
> > But I don't see the "-m-" of "arame" in your interpretation. And,
> > probably again because I don't know enough about Heian life, I don't
> > see the point of the whole poem. If she doesn't like to avoid
> > people's eyes even in dreams, why does she do it in real life? This
> > poem needs too many footnotes.
I don't know about Heian life either, but I assume this woman wanted to act
openly at least in dreams although she couldn't do so in real life.
> I'm not sure but is it meireikei of ''aru''?
This is "kakarimusubi" and "koso" takes the "izen-kei" ending.
"Ara-me" is mizen-kei of "ari" plus izen-kei of "mu", aux. verb indicating
conjecture.
utsutsu-niwa samo-koso arame -> genjitsuniwa soude aroukeredo
Lei
Funatsu Kunihiro
> This is "kakarimusubi" and "koso" takes the "izen-kei" ending.
> "Ara-me" is mizen-kei of "ari" plus izen-kei of "mu", aux. verb indicating
> conjecture.
I remembered the song phrase
Omoeba Itotoshi Kono ToshiTsuki
Imakoso Wakare*me* Iza Saraba
--
Funatsu
tmp...@netscape.net
Ken Masuyama
> Hi again,
> please somebody help me interpreting this poem of Ono no Komachi:
> (Kokinshu #656):
>
> うつつにはさもこそあらめ夢にさへ人めをよくと見るがわびしさ
>
> Utsutsu ni wa
> samokoso arame
> yume ni sae
> hitome o yoku to
> mirugawabishisa
>
> What is "見るがわびしさ"? What is the meaning of "yoku" in this poem?
The text I saw was "... hitome o MORU to miru ga wabishisa."
moru (守る) means "to guard, to be cautious about" so I think the
meaning of whole poem doesn't change much.
"It is understandable that you don't come to see me in the real life,
but how much loneliness I felt when I saw even in my dream that you
were worried about other people's eyes (and didn't come)."
> Thank you in advance.
> Zoltan.
>
> http://www.classical-japanese.net/
--
massangeana (Ken Masuyama)
Ken Masuyama
Ookimi no he ni koso shina*me*, kaerimi wa seji!
> --
> Funatsu
> tmp...@netscape.net
--
massangeana (Ken Masuyama)
Anthony J. Bryant
>
> > In Classical J, the meireikei of "ari" is "are".
> >
> Then what is ''arame'' in Heian-Jidai a thausand years ago.
>
"might there be" or "might it be" or "might you be"...
It's the ra-hen verb "ari" in the mizenkei with the conjectural jodoshi
"mu" in the izenkei.
Tony
westerfluss
ne.
> izennkei no ''me'' niha ''teineina meirei'' no imi ga aru kedo.
> Ookimi no he ni koso shina*me*, kono ''me'' ha suiryou to meirei no
> aida kurai jya nai?
>
> Westerfluss
>
westerfluss
Hirofumi Nagamura
>
> Ookimi no he ni koso shina*me*, kono ''me'' ha suiryou to meirei no
> aida kurai jya nai?
That's the "koso" + izenkee kakarimusubi, with the "mu" expressing
volition.
Cheers,
--
Hirofumi Nagamura
Freelance technical translator
Kobe, Japan
Bart Mathias
KM> The text I saw was "... hitome o MORU to miru ga wabishisa."
KM>
KM> moru (B<i$kB) means "to guard, to be cautious about" so I think
KM> the meaning of whole poem doesn't change much.
KM> "It is understandable that you don't come to see me in the real
KM> life,
KM> but how much loneliness I felt when I saw even in my dream that
KM> you were worried about other people's eyes (and didn't come)."
Thank you! Very simple after all. Changing "I avoid" to "you avoid"
explains the "-m-" in "arame" just fine! (And makes me feel dumb
not to have realized. Who was it said "every silver cloud has a dark
lining"?)
Bart
Lei Tanabe
> samokoso arame
> yume ni sae
> hitome o yoku to
> mirugawabishisa
> > "Bart Mathias" <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote
> > > But I don't see the "-m-" of "arame" in your interpretation. And,
> > > probably again because I don't know enough about Heian life, I don't
> > > see the point of the whole poem. If she doesn't like to avoid
> > > people's eyes even in dreams, why does she do it in real life? This
> > > poem needs too many footnotes.
I wrote:
> I don't know about Heian life either, but I assume this woman wanted to
> act openly at least in dreams although she couldn't do so in real life.
I was trapped by westerfluss' interpretation, "hitome-o shinobu so and so".
Now it's clear what actually was Bart's wondering about after reading Ken's
post.
Hmmm, the Heian life became much clearer to me.
Lei
westerfluss
黄泉の使いさえ騙されたあの小町
http://www.aozora.gr.jp/cards/akutagawa/htmlfiles/komachi.html
（芥川の二人小町）
深草の少将の百夜通いも「屁」とも思わない名高い美女。
その美女に「ウジウジ」と「あいつは(あの男は）人目ばかり気にして!、、、
侘びしいわ」と思わせた？しかもそれを歌にまでして後世まで「小町を侘びし
く思わせた」ということを残す？絶世の美人が？
「自分は夢の中でも人の目ばかり気にしている （この小町が！）」というの
だったら、さもあらめ、良く分かります。
Westerfluss
muchan
-ja (Hepburn), or zya (Kunrei), but not -jya...
If you want meireikee, say "mero!" :) it remains me of kobanashi,
"u-ni tenten... kore nanto yomuno?"
"u-ni tenten, dattara (with groaning throat) Grrrrrrr daro!" ;)
(Spanish speaking people sometimes pronouns "W" as "Grrr" sounds...
like Gwisky, Microsoft Gword... I don't know if they say Gworld Gwide Gweb... ;)
Nishikagwa-san-gwa Gwesterfluss...
muchan
B. Ito
Thanks to Bart, I only leanred now the true meaning of the
waka on the topic.
I had mistook the fourth line which Bart warned. I thought
'hitome wo yoku' especially 'yoku' should be printed in kanji.
Otherwise, this is too difficult even for native speakers.
In my case, at a glance, I took the fourth line 'hitome o
yoku' ='hitome ni (yori)yoku' in the meaning of 'wishing to
be seen better by others' instead of 'wishing to be seen
aside by (him ?).'
My misunderstanding:
"How forlorn I was of seeing my effort trying to be looked
at better by others even in my dream, which would have
been accepted if in the reality."
Without knowing the sitaution especially "Who would
avoid whom ?", it is very difficult to think of the 'kaji' for
'yoku', whether it would be 「除く」or 「良く」.
I have forgotten much about Japanese classic grammar
and expressions. So I never thought of 'yokeru' from
'yoku.'
--
jg2...@wonder.ocn.ne.jp B. Ito
Bart Mathias
BI> > ZB> Utsutsu ni wa
BI> > ZB> samokoso arame
BI> > ZB> yume ni sae
BI> > ZB> hitome o yoku to
BI> > ZB> mirugawabishisa
BI> In my case, at a glance, I took the fourth line 'hitome o
BI> yoku' ='hitome ni (yori)yoku' in the meaning of 'wishing
BI> to be seen better by others' instead of 'wishing to be
BI> seen aside by (him ?).'
My current understanding, thanks to Ken Masuyama (Masunaga?--sorry,
Ken, my mind is on the way out; anyway, "masseangea"-to-ka) and what
seems to be a quote from Akutagawa by Nishikawa, is that Komachi can
understand that "he" wouldn't want to be seen with her in public, but
why couldn't he be seen with her in her dreams?
BI> My misunderstanding:
BI> "How forlorn I was of seeing my effort trying to be looked
BI> at better by others even in my dream, which would have been
BI> accepted if in the reality."
BI> Without knowing the sitaution especially "Who would avoid
BI> whom ?", it is very difficult to think of the
BI> 'kaji' for 'yoku', whether it would be 「除く」or
BI> 「良く」.
Or 避く? That writing seems to have been dropped nowadays,
but it used to be OK.
BI> I have forgotten much about Japanese classic grammar and
BI> expressions. So I never thought of 'yokeru' from
BI> 'yoku.'
The problem is that this case takes *special* knowledge. On the
basis of modern Japanese, one naturally expects the bungo to be
"hitome-wo yokURu-to ..." "Yok-" is one of the verbs that has
changed katsuyoogata between then and now, leaving the old form sort
of disguised.
Most of the tricks in the Japanese language are designed to confuse
foreigners, but there are a few that target native speakers.
Bart
B. Ito
> "BI" == "B. Ito" writes:
>
> BI> > ZB> Utsutsu ni wa
> BI> > ZB> samokoso arame
> BI> > ZB> yume ni sae
> BI> > ZB> hitome o yoku to
> BI> > ZB> mirugawabishisa
[.......]
> The problem is that this case takes *special* knowledge. On the
> basis of modern Japanese, one naturally expects the bungo to be
> "hitome-wo yokURu-to ..." "Yok-" is one of the verbs that has
> changed katsuyoogata between then and now, leaving the old form sort
> of disguised.
>
> Most of the tricks in the Japanese language are designed to confuse
> foreigners, but there are a few that target native speakers.
>
--------------------------------------------
Yes, this waka is too difficult. I still need more time to understand
the true meaning of this waka, which seemingly contains the meaning
"She wishes to love a man openly at least in her dream." The subject
who avoids people's eyes is unknown, isn't it ? The simplest
understanding is that the dreamer herself does and another understanding
could be her lover does.
--
jg2...@wonder.ocn.ne.jp B. Ito
Lei Tanabe
> >
> えっ？ 小野の小町の本心が分かりますか？
> 黄泉の使いさえ騙されたあの小町
> http://www.aozora.gr.jp/cards/akutagawa/htmlfiles/komachi.html
> （芥川の二人小町）
> 深草の少将の百夜通いも「屁」とも思わない名高い美女。
> その美女に「ウジウジ」と「あいつは(あの男は）人目ばかり気にして!、、、
> 侘びしいわ」と思わせた？しかもそれを歌にまでして後世まで「小町を侘びし
> く思わせた」ということを残す？絶世の美人が？
>
> 「自分は夢の中でも人の目ばかり気にしている （この小町が！）」というの
> だったら、さもあらめ、良く分かります。
女心こそ不可解なれ。
本当のことを言うと、私には小町の本心など分かりませぬ。
私が理解したいように理解しただけのこと。
もともと「正解」はないんじゃござらぬか。
Thanks for the interesting story.
Lei