Koko Ni Sachi Ari
B. Ito
as old as about 40 yeas .
This seems to be a simple song but very delicate in the meaning.
First, I thought it is 'Our Happiness' but in the second thought,
I concluded it must be 'My Happiness.'
I concluded that 'My Happiness' would be a self-centered
expression but in that connection it would be acceptable..
"We've found our happiness."
"I've found my happiness."
"I'll find my happiness."
In the long run, I chose 'I've found my happiness.' for the last
lines of Verse (1) & (2).
I thought that 'Kimi o tayori ni." could even be translated,.in this
case, "I will really need you."
Will you please look at my translations and give some comments
and corrections ?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Here Is My Happiness
（ ここに幸あり ）
(1)
Stor_my winds may blow_ on me_, / and rain may_ fall on me_.
A_ woman’s way_ o_f li__fe, / why is it so_ severe_ ?
I_ really count o_n you_ / and I’ll be living my li__fe.
I’ve found my ha_ppi_ne_ss / under_ the blue_ sk__y.
(2)
To_ whome_ver_ could I_ confe_ss / my bitter_ past trea_ds.
I’_ve had some lo_ve stories_ / with some traumas i_n hear_t.
E_veryti_ me I cried an_d esca_ped / and wandered abou_t my wa__ys.
The nightly win_d in the to_wn / was fe_lt so_ sorrowfu_l.
(3)
I’_ll keep ca_lling your na_me / for a_ll my_ li__fe.
Who_ever will hear_ the echo_ / and will be waiting fo_r me_ ?
I’_ll go_ along clo_se with you_ / and will look u_p happily_.
I’ve found my ha_ppi_ne_ss / under_ the whi_ty_ clou_ds.
Translated by: B.
Ito
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
ここに幸あり Koko Ni Sachi Ari
高橋掬太郎: 作詞 Takahashi Kikutarou: sakushi
飯田三郎 : 作曲 Iida Saburou: sakkyoku
大津美子 : 歌 Ootsu Yoshiko: song
一．嵐も吹けば 雨も降る Arashi mo fukeba ame mo furu
女の道よ なぜ険し On-na no michi yo naze kewashi
君を頼りに 私は生きる Kimi o tayori ni watashi ha ikiru
ここに幸あり 青い空 Koko ni Sachi ari aoi sora
二、誰にも言えぬ 爪のあと Dare ni mo ienu tsume no ato
心にうけた 恋の鳥 Kokoro ni uketa koi no tori
ないてのがれて さまよい行けば Naite nogarete samayoi yukeba
夜の巷の 風かなし Yoru no chimata no kaze
kanashi
三、命のかぎり 呼びかける Inochi no kagiri yobikakeru
谺の果てに 待つは誰 Kodama no hate ni matsu ha
dare
君によりそい 明るく仰ぐ Kimi ni yorisoi akaruku aogu
ここに幸あり 白い雲 Koko ni sachi ari, shiroi kumo
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
--
jg2...@wonder.ocn.ne.jp B. Ito
Bart Mathias
BI> This is not an enka but a 'kayou kyoku.' This is an old kayou
BI> kyoku, as old as about 40 yeas .
BI> This seems to be a simple song but very delicate in the meaning.
BI> First, I thought it is 'Our Happiness' but in the second thought,
BI> I concluded it must be 'My Happiness.'
Unless you ABSOLUTELY need the beat, I'd drop the "my" and make it
just "happiness." (Now that I've said that, I find the last two
words of some song I can't pin down running through my mind: "... My
happiness." I don't take my suggestion back, nonetheless.)
BI> Will you please look at my translations and give some comments
BI> and corrections ? I_ really count o_n you_ / and IB!GBll
BI> be living my li__fe.
That weakens the relationship between dependence on someone and one's
own life too much, and in so doing makes the last half sort of
meaningless. It's hard to think of a context in which one would
really say, "I'll be living my life."
Meanwhile, in my opinion, (otoko-no) hito-o tayori-ni shite-shika
ikirarenai-no-wa nante nasakenai mono-da! Another song with a nice
melody, and awful words.
Bart
B. Ito
Bart Mathias <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote in message
news:K2.d1.WE23FH...@hawaii.edu...
> "BI" == "B. Ito" writes [about kokoni sachi ari]:
[.......]
> Unless you ABSOLUTELY need the beat, I'd drop the "my" and make it
> just "happiness." (Now that I've said that, I find the last two
> words of some song I can't pin down running through my mind: "... My
> happiness." I don't take my suggestion back, nonetheless.)
>
---------------------------------------------
Thank you. I understand very well that it's better here not to
add 'MY.'
Then, to meet the beat, I will change the sentence and will
use the same expression for the title of this song and for this
last line:
"Here is real happiness / under the blue sky."
>
> BI> Will you please look at my translations and give some comments
> BI> and corrections ? I_ really count o_n you_ / and IB!GBll
> BI> be living my li__fe.
>
> That weakens the relationship between dependence on someone and one's
> own life too much, and in so doing makes the last half sort of
> meaningless. It's hard to think of a context in which one would
> really say, "I'll be living my life."
>
---------------------------------------------
Upon your important suggestion, I've realized that I made
a big (180 degrees wrong) mistranlation in the nuance of the
Japanese sentence.
I realized that "......and I'll be living my life" may, in a sense,
sound like "........but I will be able to live my own way even
without you."
So I will bravely change the expression and will translate this
line into a definitely clear English, "I can't live withou you.."
Most probably, "I can't be living without you.", I think, will be
better, because the Japanese here "....watashi-wa ikiru" is
clearly intending to mean ".....watashi-wa ikite yuku."
The first version, therefore, will be improved as follows:
Here Is Real Happiness
（ ここに幸あり ）
(1)
Stor_my winds may blow_ on me_, / and rain may_ fall on me_.
A_ woman’s way_ o_f li__fe, / why is it so_ severe_ ?
I_ really_ count o_n you_. / I can’t be living_ without you__.
Here i_s real_ happine__ss / under_ the blue_ sk__y.
> Meanwhile, in my opinion, (otoko-no) hito-o tayori-ni shite-shika
> ikirarenai-no-wa nante nasakenai mono-da! Another song with a nice
> melody, and awful words.
>
-----------------------------------------------
If you let me know such a new Japanese song (What's the title
and who sings ?), I would like to enjoy translating it for my
lesson.
--
jg2...@wonder.ocn.ne.jp B. Ito
Annie
>Meanwhile, in my opinion, (otoko-no) hito-o tayori-ni shite-shika
>ikirarenai-no-wa nante nasakenai mono-da!
No, Japanese men easily fall prey to such flattery.
--
Annie
mailto:ann...@gol.com
Ross Klatte
>Date: 2001-07-08 12:20 Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <cL%17.1640$j04.2...@nnrp.gol.com>
>
>"Bart Mathias" <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote in message
><K2.d1.WE23FH...@hawaii.edu>
>
>>Meanwhile, in my opinion, (otoko-no) hito-o tayori-ni shite-shika
>>ikirarenai-no-wa nante nasakenai mono-da!
>
>No, Japanese men easily fall prey to such flattery.
>
Ross
http://www.geocities.com/ross_klatte/
Bart Mathias
BI> Bart Mathias <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote
..
BI> The first version, therefore, will be improved as follows:
BI>
BI>
BI> B!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!B Here Is Real Happiness
BI> (1)
BI> Stor_my winds may blow_ on me_, / and rain may_ fall on
BI> me_. A_ womanB!GBs way_ o_f li__fe, / why is it so_
BI> severe_ ? I_ really_ count o_n you_. / I canB!GBt be
BI> living_ without you__. Here i_s real_ happine__ss /
BI> under_ the blue_ sk__y.
The Japanese metaphor, "Why is a woman's road so steep?" was kind of
nice. I wonder if there's no way to match it in English. "Severe"
sounds a little bit like attitude to me here...
I don't think we can say "I can't be living." It's "I can't live" or
"I can't go on living."
Other English speakers might disagree with me here, but I think "a
blue sky" works better. "Blue skies" is common in such contexts, but
loses you a beat.
BI> > Meanwhile, in my opinion, (otoko-no) hito-o tayori-ni
BI> > shite-shika ikirarenai-no-wa nante nasakenai mono-da! Another
BI> > song with a nice melody, and awful words.
BI> >
BI> -----------------------------------------------
BI> If you let me know such a new Japanese song (What's the
BI> title and who sings ?), I would like to enjoy translating
BI> it for my lesson.
No, this was my comment on "Koko-ni sachi ari."
Another song that I consider to have a beautiful melody and ugly
words is "Danny Boy." "If I am dead, and dead I may well be..."
Yuchhh! I would not want to know this woman.
Bart
B. Ito
[.......]
> The Japanese metaphor, "Why is a woman's road so steep?" was kind of
> nice. I wonder if there's no way to match it in English. "Severe"
> sounds a little bit like attitude to me here...
>
> I don't think we can say "I can't be living." It's "I can't live" or
> "I can't go on living."
>
> Other English speakers might disagree with me here, but I think "a
> blue sky" works better. "Blue skies" is common in such contexts, but
> loses you a beat.
>
------------------------------------------------
Making much of your suggestions, I further would like to
imporve my translations as follows:
Here Is Real Happiness
（ ここに幸あり ）
(1)
Stor_my winds may blow_ on me_, / and rain may_ fall on me_.
Wh__y i_s a wo__man's roa__d / so___ ste__e____p ?"
I_ really_ count o_n you_. / I can’_t li_ve without you__.
Here i_s real_ happine__ss / under_ blue_ ski___es.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
At first, I thought that "Why is a woman's road so steep ?" might
be too short for the melody, which would require too many long
tones for each word. But when I try singing, I think everything works
fine.
I had prepared longer sentences like:
"Wh_y is a wo_man’s roa_d so stee_p, /
a_nd so_ cro_ss a_t me_ ?"
"A_ woman's way_ o_f li__fe, /
why is it so_ cross a_t me_ ?"
Will my new word 'cross' instead of 'severe' not be appropriate ?
Anway the last two alternatives are 130%, and "Why is a woman's
road so steep ?" is just a 100% translation which means as fuzzy as
the original Japanese. Again here is Bart's 'fuzzy' theory for
translations.
> BI> > Meanwhile, in my opinion, (otoko-no) hito-o tayori-ni
> BI> > shite-shika ikirarenai-no-wa nante nasakenai mono-da! Another
> BI> > song with a nice melody, and awful words.
> BI> >
--------------------------------------------
Annie said (7/9)
> No, Japanese men easily fall prey to such flattery.
-----------------------------------------------
I think this is a story in romance.
While in romance affairs, even a man may live, for a short period
of time when in love, mentally relying on a woman.
[.......]
> No, this was my comment on "Koko-ni sachi ari."
>
> Another song that I consider to have a beautiful melody and ugly
> words is "Danny Boy." "If I am dead, and dead I may well be..."
> Yuchhh! I would not want to know this woman.
>
--------------------------------------------
I suppose there are several wordings of the song "Danny Boy."
What I know about that part is:
"But if you fall as all the flowers are dying
And you are dead, as dead you well may be
I'll come and find the place where you are lying
And kneel and say an Ave there for thee."
I don't know the background of this old song. I thought that
'I' in this poem would be Danny's lover, his mother(grandmother)
or his sisters.
I don't understand why you replaced the 'you' with 'I.'
Or do you just mean you would no want to know such a woman
who would seem to say "If I am dead, and dead I may well be ...."?
--
jg2...@wonder.ocn.ne.jp B. Ito
Bart Mathias
BI> "Wh_y is a wo_manB!GBs roa_d so stee_p, /
BI> a_nd so_ cro_ss
BI> a_t me_ ?" "A_ woman's way_ o_f li__fe, /
BI> why is it so_ cross
BI> a_t me_ ?" Will my new word 'cross' instead of 'severe' not be
BI> appropriate ?
Absolutely not. That means something like "watashi-ni taishite
sunetteru, watashi-no koto-o okotteru," or however you'd express that
kind of thing in Japanese. Roads cannot feel cross at anyone. How
about "and so hard to travel (on)"?
The existing version is quite different: "(Here, oh here, is
happiness / When I can be close to you /) In the warmth of your
caress / I'm happy here with you. (/ Please say you'll never leave me
/ I know that it would break my heart. / I want to be near you always
/ for here, oh here, is happiness.)"
A certain would-be critic wrote:
BI> > Another song that I consider to have a beautiful melody and
BI> > ugly words is "Danny Boy." "If I am dead, and dead I may well
BI> > be..." Yuchhh! I would not want to know this woman.
BI> --------------------------------------------
BI> I suppose there are several wordings of the song "Danny Boy."
BI> What I know about that part is:
BI> "But if you fall as all the flowers are dying
BI> And you are dead, as dead you well may be I'll come and find
BI> the place where you are lying And kneel and say an Ave there
BI> for thee."
BI> I don't know the background of this old song. I thought that
BI> 'I' in this poem would be Danny's lover, his
BI> mother(grandmother) or his sisters.
That's who "I" is, sure enough, and "Danny" is a man's name, and this
song is about a heterosexual relationship.
There is a men's version that begins "Oh, Eily dear" instead of "Oh,
Danny Boy," and that is the version you cite above. Although my
class is at least two men per woman, we always sing the original,
"Oh, Danny Boy" (women's) version.
BI> I don't understand why you replaced the 'you' with 'I.' Or do
BI> you just mean you would no want to know such a woman who would
BI> seem to say "If I am dead, and dead I may well be ...."?
Well, I don't like Danny's version any better. "Hey, you'll probably
be dead when I get back from the wars (or wherever the pipes are
calling him to), but anyway, I'll visit your grave." For some
reason, I don't appreciate a love and death mixture any more than I
like violence with sex.
But I bet this don't got nothing to do with Japanese.
Bart
Lei Tanabe
"Annie" <ann...@gol.com> wrote in message
news:cL%17.1640$j04.2...@nnrp.gol.com...
> "Bart Mathias" <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote in message
> <K2.d1.WE23FH...@hawaii.edu>
>
> >Meanwhile, in my opinion, (otoko-no) hito-o tayori-ni shite-shika
> >ikirarenai-no-wa nante nasakenai mono-da!
>
> No, Japanese men easily fall prey to such flattery.
Flattery?
It sounds like a threat to me.
Lei
B. Ito
> "BI" == "B. Ito" writes:
>
> BI> "Wh_y is a wo_manB!GBs roa_d so stee_p, /
> BI> a_nd so_ cro_ss
> BI> a_t me_ ?" "A_ woman's way_ o_f li__fe, /
> BI> why is it so_ cross
> BI> a_t me_ ?" Will my new word 'cross' instead of 'severe' not be
> BI> appropriate ?
>
> Absolutely not. That means something like "watashi-ni taishite
> sunetteru, watashi-no koto-o okotteru," or however you'd express that
> kind of thing in Japanese. Roads cannot feel cross at anyone. How
> about "and so hard to travel (on)"?
>
> The existing version is quite different: "(Here, oh here, is
> happiness / When I can be close to you /) In the warmth of your
> caress / I'm happy here with you. (/ Please say you'll never leave me
> / I know that it would break my heart. / I want to be near you always
> / for here, oh here, is happiness.)"
>
[............]
>
> BI> I don't know the background of this old song. I thought that
> BI> 'I' in this poem would be Danny's lover, his
> BI> mother(grandmother) or his sisters.
>
> That's who "I" is, sure enough, and "Danny" is a man's name, and this
> song is about a heterosexual relationship.
>
> There is a men's version that begins "Oh, Eily dear" instead of "Oh,
> Danny Boy," and that is the version you cite above. Although my
> class is at least two men per woman, we always sing the original,
> "Oh, Danny Boy" (women's) version.
>
> BI> I don't understand why you replaced the 'you' with 'I.' Or do
> BI> you just mean you would no want to know such a woman who would
> BI> seem to say "If I am dead, and dead I may well be ...."?
>
> Well, I don't like Danny's version any better. "Hey, you'll probably
> be dead when I get back from the wars (or wherever the pipes are
> calling him to), but anyway, I'll visit your grave." For some
> reason, I don't appreciate a love and death mixture any more than I
> like violence with sex.
>
> But I bet this don't got nothing to do with Japanese.
>
------------------------------------------------
Thank you. So I will fix the second line with "Why is a woman's
road so steep?" and nothing more.
I've confirmed the version one can go with the melody very well.
As to my question 'Danny Boy', I'm sorry I seemed to have asked
you to explain such private matters. In fact, I also have the same
feeling and don't like the mixture of 'Love & Death.'
It's the first time I've heard that there is a men's version of
'Danny Boy.' OK, I will remember to start singing "Oh, Eily dear......"
--
jg2...@wonder.ocn.ne.jp B. Ito
Annie
>"Lei Tanabe" <l...@clear.net.nz> wrote in message
><3b4a3984$1...@clear.net.nz>
>>> No, Japanese men easily fall prey to such flattery.
>>
>>Flattery?
>>It sounds like a threat to me.
How should I say?
My dictionary says;
ジョンはすぐにおだてに乗る。
John easily falls prey to flattery.
--
Annie
mailto:ann...@gol.com
Don Kirkman
<m1.g0.YE2o8R...@hawaii.edu>:
It don't indeed, nor do my addendum, but I grew up with the
understanding, without much support, that "Danny Boy" was a father's
farewell to his son who was off to war. That's one of apparently dozens
of explanations of the song--seemingly one explanation per Web site,
almost as many explanations as sets of lyrics for the tune. Beautiful
music, even if not ancient.
According to one Web page, the ambiguity of the words was a studied
effect that Weatherly, the composer, used in many of his poems--sort of
a 'one size fits all' approach to marketing his works. The
interpretation is in the listener, not in the lyricist.
--
Don
don...@covad.net
Lei Tanabe
>
> >>> No, Japanese men easily fall prey to such flattery.
> >>
> >>Flattery?
> >>It sounds like a threat to me.
>
> How should I say?
> My dictionary says;
> ジョンはすぐにおだてに乗る。
> John easily falls prey to flattery.
Did I get something wrong?
I thought you were talking about the phrase "anata-o tayori-ni watashi-wa
ikiru".
Bart said it's sad that the woman can live only relying on her man.
You seemed to take the phrase as a flattery (to the man).
To me it's not おだて but おどし like: I can't live without you, so, you
must stay with me.
Lei
Cindy
面白いところで人の性格がわかるなあ。
B. Ito
Cindy <cind...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3B4BB1DC...@worldnet.att.net...
> Lei Tanabe wrote:
>
> > "Annie" <ann...@gol.com> wrote in message
> > news:TMF27.1739$j04.2...@nnrp.gol.com...
>
[snipped, because I quoted every necessary point on the foot.]
> 面白いところで人の性格がわかるなあ。
>
--------------------------------------------
やっぱぁー、母国語はちがうんだなぁー。
第一このcinｄyの「面白いところ」と言う表現も「面白い」ね。
「面白いところ」、これを他国語に翻訳すると、「flattery」のニュアンス
と同じように人によって「微妙」、いや微妙ではすまされない大きな食い
違いが生じる事もあるんですね。
まずRossの "It is raining zabutons."、何の事かさっぱり解から
なかったが、このcindy の投稿をみて、初めてRossの言いたい
事が分かった。横文字を理解するのに日本語の落語家達のテレビ
余興番組の座布団まで持ち出さなくてはいけなかったとは。
それにしても、"It is raining zabutons."、これが「英語」の感覚なの
かなぁ。"Zabutons are raining (falling)." or "Zabutons are offered."
ならまだしも。 まてよ、そう言えば、"It is raining cats and dogs."
というのがあったな。 そうすると、"cats and dogs" を "zabutons"
で置き換えればいいのか。
そこで、そのニュアンスの汲み取りかたですが、まず仕掛け人の
この私（B. Ito）からして、実はBartに指摘された個所「君を頼りに
わたしは生きる」をそのまま英語に直訳して、Bartを誤解に導いて
いたのに気づきました。
「ここに幸あり」が作詞された当時は、日本ではまだ封建的な観念が
残って居たでしょうから、そんな古い時代の日本の女性としては、
「あなたをたよりに、、、、、、、」と言う表現が無難だったんでしょうね。
すなわち「すこしは頼りにしている、、、、、、、」程度の場合でも世間か
らああいう風に言うように仕向けられていたのでしょうね。それが
当時の世間から期待さていた「女性の理想像」だったのでしょう。
だらかあの「君をたよりに、、、、、、」のところは「あなたという人の
存在を私の生き甲斐として、、、、、、、、」ぐらいの意味に翻訳する
のが今風の解釈で良かったかもしれません。 アメリカ版ですと、
Paul Ankaでしたか、"You are my destiny............" と言ったところ
でしょうか。
そんな私の翻訳内容に対してBartは言った：
> Meanwhile, in my opinion, (otoko-no) hito-o tayori-ni
> shite-shika ikirarenai-no-wa nante nasakenai mono-da! Another
> song with a nice melody, and awful words.
Annie: "No, Japanese men easily fall prey to such flattery."
Ross: "It is raining zabutons!"
Lei: "Flattery?
It sounds like a threat to me."
Annie: "How should I say?
My dictionary says;
ジョンはすぐにおだてに乗る。
John easily falls prey to flattery."
Lei: "Did I get something wrong?
I thought you were talking about the phrase "anata-o
tayori-ni watashi-wa ikiru".
Bart said it's sad that the woman can live only relying on her
man. You seemed to take the phrase as a flattery (to the
man).
To me it's not おだて but おどし like: I can't live without you,
so, you must stay with me.
Cindy: "面白いところで人の性格がわかるなあ。"
B. Ito "うん、そうなんだよね。 だから話は面白い。
だけど、へんなところで、女性どうしの対決はしないでよ。
種を蒔いたのは、そもそも私なのだが、「刈り取れ」と言われ
ても困るからね。"
"でもひどいなぁー、皆さん, 僕の翻訳の他の部分はほってら
かしにしといて、、、、、、、こんなところで「華」をさかせて、、
、、、、、、、いや、これは冗談、失礼しました！”
--
jg2...@wonder.ocn.ne.jp B. Ito
Cindy
> 第一このcinｄyの「面白いところ」と言う表現も「面白い」ね。
> 「面白いところ」、これを他国語に翻訳すると、「flattery」のニュアンス
> と同じように人によって「微妙」、いや微妙ではすまされない大きな食い
> 違いが生じる事もあるんですね。
そう、その「人」の選ぶ「言葉」によってね。
だから、もし翻訳の仕事を頼む場合、文字どおり、額面どおりの翻訳をして貰いたかっ
たら、Annie さんに頼む。 しかし、意味深長で風刺を混じえた翻訳を希望するなら、
Lei さんに頼む。
> 「ここに幸あり」が作詞された当時は、日本ではまだ封建的な観念が
> 残って居たでしょうから、そんな古い時代の日本の女性としては、
> 「あなたをたよりに、、、、、、、」と言う表現が無難だったんでしょうね。
> すなわち「すこしは頼りにしている、、、、、、、」程度の場合でも世間か
> らああいう風に言うように仕向けられていたのでしょうね。それが
> 当時の世間から期待さていた「女性の理想像」だったのでしょう。
あの頃は女一人で銀行に訪ねて行ってもローンの一つも組めるどころか、普通預金の口
座も開かせてくれなかったんじゃないかな。選挙権も無かったと思うよ。
ここテキサスでも、私一人でも不便なことは無いけど、主人が介入すると私がネゴるよ
りももっと早く問題が解決しちゃったりするの。それももっとベターな結果で。そこ
で、いつも仲良くしている戦争花嫁のお友達が「ちよみさん、どんなダメおやじでも、
離婚しないで持っていた方が便利よ」と言ってくれて、二人で暫く笑いこける。
> だらかあの「君をたよりに、、、、、、」のところは「あなたという人の
> 存在を私の生き甲斐として、、、、、、、、」ぐらいの意味に翻訳する
> のが今風の解釈で良かったかもしれません。 アメリカ版ですと、
> Paul Ankaでしたか、"You are my destiny............" と言ったところ
> でしょうか。
渡辺純一の「失楽園」読んだ？
B. Ito
> "B. Ito" wrote:
>
「・・・・・」
> 渡辺純一の「失楽園」読んだ？
-------------------------------------------
いいえ、小説は読んでおりません。
テレビ映画では、最後の１/３位は見ましたが。
--
jg2...@wonder.ocn.ne.jp B. Ito
Cindy
> Cindy <cind...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:3B4C7231...@worldnet.att.net...
> > "B. Ito" wrote:
> >
>
> 「・・・・・」
>
> > 渡辺純一の「失楽園」読んだ？
> -------------------------------------------
> いいえ、小説は読んでおりません。
> テレビ映画では、最後の１/３位は見ましたが。
小説の方が主人公の男性の心理状態が細心に描かれていてお薦めです。映画はた
だのポルノじゃない？