bath house kanji in Spirited Away
Dave Oshel
banner at the bath house is as odd as it seems. Is the visual pun on
"vast surging waters" (Unicode 6cba) really there, or am I reading too
much into this? What's going on? Referring to Miyazaki's film, of
course, which I just saw dubbed.
--
David C. Oshel mailto:dco...@inav.net
Cedar Rapids, IA http://soli.inav.net/~dcoshel/
``I think most pleasantly in metaphors, and smoking brings metaphors
to mind.'' - Augustus Srb, in Alexei Panshin's _Star Well_
Johan Van Gompel
Dave Oshel wrote:
> Judging from Sen's reaction, the "oil" character (Unicode 6cb9) on the
> banner at the bath house is as odd as it seems. Is the visual pun on
> "vast surging waters" (Unicode 6cba) really there, or am I reading too
> much into this? What's going on? Referring to Miyazaki's film, of
> course, which I just saw dubbed.
I do not have a clue, but could someone tell me what exactly the "kakushi"
part in "Sen to Chihiro no kamikakushi" translates to? It is not in my
furigana dictionary and the closest thing to it means "imaginary".
--
Johan Van Gompel
Debian GNU/Linux 2.4.19 on Athlon 1400/512 MB
Dave Oshel
Johan Van Gompel <joh...@gmx.net> wrote:
> <posted & mailed>
>
> Dave Oshel wrote:
>
> > Judging from Sen's reaction, the "oil" character (Unicode 6cb9) on the
> > banner at the bath house is as odd as it seems. Is the visual pun on
> > "vast surging waters" (Unicode 6cba) really there, or am I reading too
> > much into this? What's going on? Referring to Miyazaki's film, of
> > course, which I just saw dubbed.
>
> I do not have a clue, but could someone tell me what exactly the "kakushi"
> part in "Sen to Chihiro no kamikakushi" translates to? It is not in my
> furigana dictionary and the closest thing to it means "imaginary".
Sen & Chihiro (a.k.a. each other) "mysteriously disappear". aBC? just
means hidden, ergo... mysterious disappearance. Edict has this one. I
use Sergei Kurkin's JEDict for Macintosh OS X, very useful on a laptop.
Kevin Wayne Williams
> <posted & mailed>
>
> Dave Oshel wrote:
>
>
>>Judging from Sen's reaction, the "oil" character (Unicode 6cb9) on the
>>banner at the bath house is as odd as it seems. Is the visual pun on
>>"vast surging waters" (Unicode 6cba) really there, or am I reading too
>>much into this? What's going on? Referring to Miyazaki's film, of
>>course, which I just saw dubbed.
>>
>
> I do not have a clue, but could someone tell me what exactly the "kakushi"
> part in "Sen to Chihiro no kamikakushi" translates to? It is not in my
> furigana dictionary and the closest thing to it means "imaginary".
神隠し is a word meaning "Mysterious disappearance". The kanji mean
god/mind/spirit and hide/conceal/cover.
KWW
Hirofumi Nagamura
> Judging from Sen's reaction, the "oil" character (Unicode 6cb9) on the
> banner at the bath house is as odd as it seems. Is the visual pun on
> "vast surging waters" (Unicode 6cba) really there, or am I reading too
> much into this? What's going on? Referring to Miyazaki's film, of
> course, which I just saw dubbed.
I've never seen the movie, but isn't this a sound-based pun? The
on'yomi of the "oil" kanji, "yu", is the same as the kun'yomi of the
"hot water" kanji (Unicode 6e6f), which is in fact often used at bath
houses.
Unicode 6cba is rarely if ever used in Japanese.
Cheers,
Hirofumi Nagamura
Kevin Gowen
> <posted & mailed>
>
> Dave Oshel wrote:
>
>> Judging from Sen's reaction, the "oil" character (Unicode 6cb9) on the
>> banner at the bath house is as odd as it seems. Is the visual pun on
>> "vast surging waters" (Unicode 6cba) really there, or am I reading too
>> much into this? What's going on? Referring to Miyazaki's film, of
>> course, which I just saw dubbed.
>
> I do not have a clue, but could someone tell me what exactly the "kakushi"
> part in "Sen to Chihiro no kamikakushi" translates to? It is not in my
> furigana dictionary and the closest thing to it means "imaginary".
In Japanese, the expression 神隠しに会う (kamikakushi ni au)
traditionally is used to describe when someone, usually a child, goes
missing for a
short time. When the missing person is found, there are in a daze or
stupified
state. The phrase comes from the belief that such as person was hidden
or taken away by a spirit, tengu, or other supernatural beings. It comes
from the Japanese of "kami" - spirit/god and "kakushi" -
hiding/hidden/secret. I'd translate it as "mysterious disappearance" in
most cases.
- Kevin
Shez
>In article <3dd6ebf1$0$86535$ba62...@news.skynet.be>,
> Johan Van Gompel <joh...@gmx.net> wrote:
>>
>> I do not have a clue, but could someone tell me what exactly the "kakushi"
>> part in "Sen to Chihiro no kamikakushi" translates to? It is not in my
>> furigana dictionary and the closest thing to it means "imaginary".
>
>Sen & Chihiro (a.k.a. each other) "mysteriously disappear".
Or, dare I say it, "is spirited away"? That preserves the feeling of the
kami etymology.
-Shez.
--
______________________________________________________
What good is a ticket to the good life, if you can't find the entrance?
______________________________________________________
Take a break at the Last Stop Cafe: http://www.xerez.demon.co.uk/
Use http://www.xerez.demon.co.uk/mailform.html for personal replies
Joshua Hesse
:Sen & Chihiro (a.k.a. each other) "mysteriously disappear". aBC? just
:means hidden, ergo... mysterious disappearance. Edict has this one. I
:use Sergei Kurkin's JEDict for Macintosh OS X, very useful on a laptop.
The accepted translated name, prior to the Disney release was
"A Thousand and Chihiro Spirited Away"
Everything you ever wanted to know about this movie, and more:
http://www.nausicaa.net/miyazaki/sen/
-Josh
--
"I have also mastered pomposity, even if I do say so myself." -Kryten
"You scream at them at the top of your lungs and then hit them over the head
with an immense wooden mallet? You're weird, sir." -Dave Brown on girls.
Kevin Gowen
> Dave Oshel <dco...@inav.net> wrote:
>
> :Sen & Chihiro (a.k.a. each other) "mysteriously disappear". aBC? just :means
> hidden, ergo... mysterious disappearance. Edict has this one. I :use
> Sergei Kurkin's JEDict for Macintosh OS X, very useful on a laptop.
>
> The accepted translated name, prior to the Disney release was
> "A Thousand and Chihiro Spirited Away"
Accepted by whom, and why?
> Everything you ever wanted to know about this movie, and more:
>
> http://www.nausicaa.net/miyazaki/sen/
>
> -Josh
--
Kevin Gowen
Dave Fossett
> The accepted translated name, prior to the Disney release was
> "A Thousand and Chihiro Spirited Away"
Accepted by who? Sounds like someone just fed "Sen to Chihiro" into an
online translator.
--
Dave Fossett
Saitama, JAPAN
Curt Fischer
> "A Thousand and Chihiro Spirited Away"
By whom was it accepted? As far as I know, the name "Spirited Away" was
picked by Studio Ghibli itself well before the Disney release. My
Japanese version of the DVD, bought about four months ago or so, has the
name "Spirited Away" on the cover.
If you mean it simply as a direct translation of the Japanese title,
even then I am not sure if your version is accurate. Of course, that's
not surprising given my poor knowledge of Japanese. Obviously, the 千
(sen) kanji means 1,000. But in the context of the full title, I wonder
if most Japanese would realize the derivation of 千 from 千尋 (chihiro)
and therefore assume that in this instance 千 is some kind of name.
If so, then we have a problem: the Japanese version of the title makes
sense, and the above version "A Thousand and Chihiro Spirited Away"
doesn't make any sense. My (probably erroneous) attempts at literal
translation would be "The Mysterious Disappearance of Sen and Chihiro"
or "The Spiriting Away of Sen and Chihiro"
Are there any NSOJ who can give their opinion? Would the Japanese title
of this movie make any sense to someone totally ignorant of the movie
and its plot? Or would it sound like nonsense until someone explained
the the name/kanji-stealing which the main character must endure?
--
Curt Fischer
Kevin Wayne Williams
>
> Are there any NSOJ who can give their opinion? Would the Japanese title
> of this movie make any sense to someone totally ignorant of the movie
> and its plot? Or would it sound like nonsense until someone explained
> the the name/kanji-stealing which the main character must endure?
>
I had to explain the title to my instructor, a NSOJ who has lived in
America for 40 years. She said that the title had really been confusing her.
KWW
Chris Kern
posted the following:
> Obviously, the 千
>(sen) kanji means 1,000. But in the context of the full title, I wonder
>if most Japanese would realize the derivation of 千 from 千尋 (chihiro)
>and therefore assume that in this instance 千 is some kind of name.
If you see the movie it's obvious, because it actually shows the
"chihiro" kanji on a piece of paper, and then yubaba takes away the
"hiro" kanji and names her "sen".
The title confused me at first too, and whenever I asked people about
it they gave some hand-waving about the on and kun readings of
characters.
-Chris
Kevin Gowen
> On Mon, 18 Nov 2002 12:10:19 +0900, "Curt Fischer" <cr...@po.cwru.edu>
> posted the following:
>
>> Obviously, the 千
>> (sen) kanji means 1,000. But in the context of the full title, I wonder
>> if most Japanese would realize the derivation of 千 from 千尋 (chihiro)
>> and therefore assume that in this instance 千 is some kind of name.
>
> If you see the movie it's obvious, because it actually shows the
> "chihiro" kanji on a piece of paper, and then yubaba takes away the
> "hiro" kanji and names her "sen".
IIRC, this scene appeared in the trailer for the film. Still, I don't see
how the title of the film is that confusing. Given the context, it seems
obvious to me that 千 is a name.
> The title confused me at first too, and whenever I asked people about
> it they gave some hand-waving about the on and kun readings of
> characters.
>
> -Chris
--
Kevin Gowen
Joshua Hesse
:Joshua Hesse wrote:
:> Dave Oshel <dco...@inav.net> wrote:
:>
:> The accepted translated name, prior to the Disney release was
:> "A Thousand and Chihiro Spirited Away"
:By whom was it accepted? As far as I know, the name "Spirited Away" was
:picked by Studio Ghibli itself well before the Disney release. My
:Japanese version of the DVD, bought about four months ago or so, has the
:name "Spirited Away" on the cover.
A newsgroups google provided a posting to a listserv in December, 1999:
>From: "Ryoko Toyama" <air...@starleaf.net>
>To: <other-a...@nausicaa.net>
>Subject: [Misc. Ghibli] Next Miyazaki Film
>Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 12:26:22 +0900
>Yesterday, Ghibli had a press conference to announce the next film by
>Miyazaki-San, to be released in the summer of 2001. It is tentatively titled
>as "Sen to Chihiro no Kamikakushi (A Thousand and Chihiro's Spirited Away)".
>It's about a ten year-old girl, Chihiro, whose parents were changed into
>pigs. She goes to the Land of Spirits to save her parents and has an
>adventure. It takes place in today's Japan.
>Disney is partially funding the project.
<http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=835gn2%24cko%40cri.ens-lyon.fr>
Ghibli's 'official' position, as of February 2000:
>When asked whether anyone had yet figured out a more streamlined
>English title for Miyazaki's upcoming "Sen to Chihiro no Kamikakushi"*,
>he [US Ghibli rep] replied, "There IS no English title..."
<http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=38A04A33.F4C3334C%40ultranet.com>
:If you mean it simply as a direct translation of the Japanese title,
:even then I am not sure if your version is accurate.
Heck, my understanding is that the title is just a pun on
diffent ways of reading the kanji...
:If so, then we have a problem: the Japanese version of the title makes
:sense, and the above version "A Thousand and Chihiro Spirited Away"
:doesn't make any sense. My (probably erroneous) attempts at literal
:translation would be "The Mysterious Disappearance of Sen and Chihiro"
:or "The Spiriting Away of Sen and Chihiro"
"Sen[name] and Chihiro[name] ..." wouldn't make much sense because
Sen and Chihiro are the same person. "A thousand and Chihiro[name] ..."
makes a little bit more sense because, (in the context of the movie)
Chihiro and family aren't the first.
Either way, this is a movie title, and a punny one at that. I try
not to lose much sleep over stuff like that.
Curt Fischer
Well, these two messages seem to conflict. Maybe the "A Thousand and
Chihiro Spirited Away" was the impromptu on the spot translation of
Ryoko Toyama him(her?)self and not a product of the Ghibli staff.
> :If you mean it simply as a direct translation of the Japanese title,
> :even then I am not sure if your version is accurate.
>
> Heck, my understanding is that the title is just a pun on
> diffent ways of reading the kanji...
Well, of course puns are difficult to translate.
> :If so, then we have a problem: the Japanese version of the title
> makes :sense, and the above version "A Thousand and Chihiro Spirited
> Away" :doesn't make any sense. My (probably erroneous) attempts at
> literal :translation would be "The Mysterious Disappearance of Sen
> and Chihiro" :or "The Spiriting Away of Sen and Chihiro"
>
> "Sen[name] and Chihiro[name] ..." wouldn't make much sense because
> Sen and Chihiro are the same person. "A thousand and Chihiro[name]
> ..." makes a little bit more sense because, (in the context of the
> movie) Chihiro and family aren't the first.
First, if you can naturally parse "A thousand and Chihiro spirited away"
as a reference to the spiriting away of 1001 entities, one of whom is
named Chihiro, congratulations. To me it makes no sense. And, more
importantly, this idea of 1000 other entities being spirited away is not
in the Japanese title. So this translation is quite liberal and makes
(to me) no sense. However, KWW reported that the Japanese title made no
sense to his NSOJ teacher, so maybe making no sense is OK.
Of course the trailer to the movie explains everything. But that's
cheating, I think.
In ancient days men consulted the Oracle at Delphi but today's best
source for mystic omniscience is www.google.com:
27 hits: "thousand and chihiro spirited away"
44 hits: "sen and chihiro spirited away" (this includes versions with
punctuation like ":", "'s", or "/" between chihiro and spirited.)
398 hits: "spiriting away of sen and chihiro"
1 hit: "spiriting away of a thousand and chihiro"
4 hits: "mysterious disappearance of sen and chihiro"
0 hits: "mysterious disappearance of a thousand and chihiro"
--
Curt Fischer
David Rigert
news:arbiha$ntu$1...@unlnews.unl.edu...
> Curt Fischer <cr...@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
<snip>
I originally (mis-)translated it as "The Mysterious Disappearance of Sen and
Chihiro" as well. After seeing the movie, I realized that it would be more
accurate if translated as "Sen and the Mysterious Disappearance of Chihiro,"
since Chihiro gets the "hiro" taken from her name after she mysteriously
disappears into the spirit world.
-David Rigert
Dewey, Chetham & Howe
wrote:
>
>Well, of course puns are difficult to translate.
>
>> :If so, then we have a problem: the Japanese version of the title
>> makes :sense, and the above version "A Thousand and Chihiro Spirited
>> Away" :doesn't make any sense. My (probably erroneous) attempts at
>> literal :translation would be "The Mysterious Disappearance of Sen
>> and Chihiro" :or "The Spiriting Away of Sen and Chihiro"
>>
>> "Sen[name] and Chihiro[name] ..." wouldn't make much sense because
>> Sen and Chihiro are the same person. "A thousand and Chihiro[name]
>> ..." makes a little bit more sense because, (in the context of the
>> movie) Chihiro and family aren't the first.
>
>First, if you can naturally parse "A thousand and Chihiro spirited away"
>as a reference to the spiriting away of 1001 entities, one of whom is
>named Chihiro, congratulations. To me it makes no sense. And, more
>importantly, this idea of 1000 other entities being spirited away is not
>in the Japanese title. So this translation is quite liberal and makes
>(to me) no sense. However, KWW reported that the Japanese title made no
>sense to his NSOJ teacher, so maybe making no sense is OK.
Another pun on the title is 銭湯千尋 (Sentou Chihiro,) or, 'bathhouse
Chihiro"
No, I didn't figure it out on my own...
--
Warren J. Savage
'pas de lieu Rh�ne qui nous'
-----------== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Uncensored Usenet News ==----------
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----= Over 100,000 Newsgroups - Unlimited Fast Downloads - 19 Servers =-----