Gozaimasu--What's it mean?
Brandon Berg
I started learning Japanese near the beginning of this summer, and I
ran into two phrases--"Ohayo Gozaimasu" and "Arigato Gozaimasu"-- which
contain the word "Gozaimasu." According to my dictionary, you can say
"Good morning" and "Thank you" as "Ohayo" and "Arigato", and that
"gozaimasu" is optional. All I can figure out is that it has something
to do with formalization (at least, I think that's it), but it looks
like a verb, and I can't figure out why you'd use a verb to make
something formal. What does it mean?
Thanks,
Brandon Berg
bb...@flash.net
seho...@garbageislandnet.com
"Gozaimasu" in the situations which you cite doesn't "mean" much of
anything, but what it DOES is make the utterance more polite. It is
really just a fancy way of saying "desu", which itself doesn't really
mean anything. Sure, dictionaries may tell you that "desu" means "is",
but consider that there are plenty of languages which do very well
without any real equivalent of "is", and you may find yourself thinking
that "is" doesn't really "mean" anything, at least not to the same
degree that "rhinoceros" or "erotic" mean something. So "gozaimasu" is
just a fancy version of "desu", which can roughly be translated as "is",
which doesn't mean a whole lot. It serves a function.
Sean
--
Please remove the word "garbage" from my e-mail address.
muchan
> So "gozaimasu" is
> just a fancy version of "desu", which can roughly be translated as "is",
> which doesn't mean a whole lot. It serves a function.
>
> Sean
More precisely, "-de gozai-masu" is fancy version of "-de (ari-ma)su"
:)
muchan
B Jones
In a previous article, seho...@garbageislandnet.com () says:
>"Gozaimasu" in the situations which you cite doesn't "mean" much of
>anything, but what it DOES is make the utterance more polite. It is
>really just a fancy way of saying "desu", which itself doesn't really
>mean anything.
Not true! "Gozaimasu" is actually the polite present/future tense form
of the verb "gozaru", which means "to exist".
> So "gozaimasu" is
>just a fancy version of "desu", which can roughly be translated as "is",
>which doesn't mean a whole lot. It serves a function.
I think you're thinking of "aru/arimasu" when speaking of existence;
"da/desu" refer to condition or identity.
Just my unwa(rra)nted opinion....
--
Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa
In sci.lang.japan B Jones thrust upon the world:
-| Not true! "Gozaimasu" is actually the polite present/future tense form
-| of the verb "gozaru", which means "to exist".
I always thought it was "gozau." If it was "gozaru," wouldn't it
conjugate as "gozarimasu"? it's not "-iru" or "-eru," so it's not a "-ru"
verb (like "taberu" (tabemasu) for example), so isn't this the case?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| Adam M. Beal be...@uiuc.edu|
| www.cen.uiuc.edu/~beal |
| President, Sons of Kosh Kosh Lives!!|
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gerald B Mathias
Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa (be...@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: In sci.lang.japan B Jones thrust upon the world:
: -| Not true! "Gozaimasu" is actually the polite present/future tense form
: -| of the verb "gozaru", which means "to exist".
: I always thought it was "gozau." If it was "gozaru," wouldn't it
: conjugate as "gozarimasu"? it's not "-iru" or "-eru," so it's not a "-ru"
: verb (like "taberu" (tabemasu) for example), so isn't this the case?
There used to be a verb "gozaru" (now obsolete, except for jidaigeki
and playful speech) that was one of the five (now four) irregular
verbs (not recognized as such by kokubunpoo which probably considers
them "tokubetsu" rather than "henkaku") in "...-ar-."
Since it is obsolete, it is not surprising that you though it
should be "gozau." Can you think of the four verbs that are irregular
in the same way "gozaru" was? Can you spot something else
phonologically unusual about "gozaimasu"? (For lack of any more
mistranslations puzzles...)
Bart
"Wherefore Art Thou?"--header of item in June _Popular Science_
"Wherefore askst thou in language thou understandst not?" --Buck A. Yarrow
Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa
In sci.lang.japan Gerald B Mathias thrust upon the world:
-| should be "gozau." Can you think of the four verbs that are irregular
-| in the same way "gozaru" was? Can you spot something else
suru and kuru come to mind. how about irrasharu?
-| phonologically unusual about "gozaimasu"? (For lack of any more
-| mistranslations puzzles...)
well, if it's not a ru verb, it's an u verb. like aru -> arimasu.
by that logic, the change should be gozaru -> gozarimasu. but instead
it's "i," not "ri." am I right? do I win a no-prize?
Brandon Berg
Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa wrote:
>
> In sci.lang.japan Gerald B Mathias thrust upon the world:
>
> -| should be "gozau." Can you think of the four verbs that are irregular
> -| in the same way "gozaru" was? Can you spot something else
>
> suru and kuru come to mind. how about irrasharu?
>
> -| phonologically unusual about "gozaimasu"? (For lack of any more
> -| mistranslations puzzles...)
nasaru is obsolete, and to the extent of my (extremely limited)
knowledge, kudasaru and irassharu are only used as irasshai and kudasai.
At least, according to my dictionary. At the risk of adding several
more branches to this thread, may I ask what kudasaru and irassharu
mean? (In the same sense as my original question about gozaru...I
already know irasshai and kudasai). While I'm at it, what about nasaru?
Brandon Berg
bb...@flash.net
Pablo Saratxaga
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記事 <5rs63k$f...@frodo.pgfn.bc.ca> にて、
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> I think you're thinking of "aru/arimasu" when speaking of existence;
> "da/desu" refer to condition or identity.
Isn't da/desu the contraction of "de aru"/"de arimasu" ?
"de gozaimasu" is very formal and polite equivalent of desu isn't it ?
(Don't beieve me on that, I just want confirmation or infirmation from
someone whith more skills than me)
--
ではまた、
サラチャガ “柳” パブ郎
[Pablo Saratxaga]
~
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muchan
>
> well, if it's not a ru verb, it's an u verb. like aru -> arimasu.
> by that logic, the change should be gozaru -> gozarimasu. but instead
> it's "i," not "ri." am I right? do I win a no-prize?
>
It is historically gozar-i-masu.
Goza-i-masu is kind of onbin form.
muchan
Brandon Berg
> More precisely, "-de gozai-masu" is fancy version of "-de (ari-ma)su"
Pablo Saratxaga
<!--
Kaixo!
on 1 Aug 1997 18:24:48 GMT,
Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa <be...@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> said:
MVA> -| Not true! "Gozaimasu" is actually the polite present/future tense form
MVA> -| of the verb "gozaru", which means "to exist".
MVA> I always thought it was "gozau." If it was "gozaru," wouldn't it
MVA> conjugate as "gozarimasu"? it's not "-iru" or "-eru," so it's not a "-ru"
MVA> verb (like "taberu" (tabemasu) for example), so isn't this the case?
Look at irassharu --> irasshaimasu.
There are a few of them like that, all related whith very polite speech if
I recall correctly.
Kudasaru --> kudasaimasu also. (well, you will found in in the form
"-te kudasai" only nowadays.)
nasaru --> nasaimasu.
--
DAWickstro
In article <5rtjj7$som$1...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa
<be...@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> writes:
>In sci.lang.japan Gerald B Mathias thrust upon the world:
>
>-| should be "gozau." Can you think of the four verbs that are irregular
>-| in the same way "gozaru" was? Can you spot something else
>
I haven't seen Bart's post, yet, but I have seen the one wherein it was
_you_ who introduced the error of "gozau."
Gozaru is correct, and was indeed once conjugated 'gozarimasu.' Gozaimasu
is a corruption of gozarimasu.
I once heard, in a historical drama, the construction "no de
gozarimassuru" in place of the present copular 'de aru,' or 'desu.' The
time period represented was late Senkokujidai. In the same conversation,
a 'no-excuse' apology was rendered as 'moushiawakegozarimassunu.' Yes,
that's -MASSUNU. No, I did not mis-hear or mis-remember this; I have it
on tape, and just checked.
I can't verify the grammatical accuracy of the language presented, nor do
I assume that the NHK people necessarily know what they are dong in this
respect. I've heard some frightfully blunderous attempts at Elizabethan
English presented by those who should know better.
>suru and kuru come to mind. how about irrasharu?
>
>-| phonologically unusual about "gozaimasu"? (For lack of any more
>-| mistranslations puzzles...)
>
>well, if it's not a ru verb, it's an u verb. like aru -> arimasu.
>by that logic, the change should be gozaru -> gozarimasu. but instead
>it's "i," not "ri." am I right? do I win a no-prize?
Again, irassharu can be conjugated, archaically, as 'irassharimasu,' and
modern usage has become somewhat corrupted.
You can't tell what the players are saying in jidaigeki, or their relative
positions, without your keigo scorecard.
Douglas A. Wickstrom
E-Mail to nimshubur(at)aol(dot)com
Bruce Tomlin
Brandon Berg <bb...@flash.net> wrote in sci.lang.japan:
>knowledge, kudasaru and irassharu are only used as irasshai and kudasai.
>At least, according to my dictionary. At the risk of adding several
Hmm... I would have thought it was kudaru from the kanji it uses, but
that didn't seem quite right. ("To go down" or "to go toward Tokyo" as
"please"?)
>already know irasshai and kudasai). While I'm at it, what about nasaru?
Nasaru is the honorific form of suru. It is most commonly heard as
"-te nasai", which I understand is its command form. (irregular?)
Emily Bender
Disclaimer: I am using Wickstrom-san's post because it contains the two
that I would like to respond to (Bart-san's and Mathias-san's)
and I am too lazy to go to DejaNews. Apologies to Wickstrom-san.
In article <19970804005...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
DAWickstro <dawic...@aol.com> wrote:
>In article <5rtjj7$som$1...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa
><be...@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu> writes:
>
>>In sci.lang.japan Gerald B Mathias thrust upon the world:
>>
>>-| should be "gozau." Can you think of the four verbs that are irregular
>>-| in the same way "gozaru" was? Can you spot something else
>>
>
>
>I haven't seen Bart's post, yet, but I have seen the one wherein it was
>_you_ who introduced the error of "gozau."
>
[.snip.]
>
>>suru and kuru come to mind. how about irrasharu?
>>
>>-| phonologically unusual about "gozaimasu"? (For lack of any more
>>-| mistranslations puzzles...)
>>
>>well, if it's not a ru verb, it's an u verb. like aru -> arimasu.
>>by that logic, the change should be gozaru -> gozarimasu. but instead
>>it's "i," not "ri." am I right? do I win a no-prize?
>
That's the first thing that's phonologically unusual about it,
right? Here's a guess at the second one: starting with a voiced
consonant.
>Douglas A. Wickstrom
>E-Mail to nimshubur(at)aol(dot)com
Emily Bender
Gerald B Mathias
Emily Bender (em...@leland.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
: Disclaimer: I am using Wickstrom-san's post because it contains the two
: that I would like to respond to (Bart-san's and Mathias-san's)
: and I am too lazy to go to DejaNews. Apologies to Wickstrom-san.
: >>In sci.lang.japan Gerald B Mathias thrust upon the world:
: >>-| Can you think of the four verbs that are irregular
: >>-| in the same way "gozaru" was? Can you spot something else
: >>-| phonologically unusual about "gozaimasu"? (For lack of any more
: >>-| mistranslations puzzles...)
: Here's a guess at the second one: starting with a voiced
: consonant.
That's it. Voiced obstruent initials always mean either something
interesting has happened to a word since OJ times, or else that it
doesn't go back to OJ (is a borrowing, usually). In the case of
erstwhile "gozaru," it's half borrowing, going back to "go-za"
(probably pseudo-Sino-Japanese, though Mike Wright has pointed out
to me that the Chinese used the combination in the sense of
"throne") plus "aru," 'honorable seat have-a-yes -> (his/her/your
worship) stays/goes/comes -> ... -> there (humbly) is.'
--
muchan
Brandon wrote about mine:
> > More precisely, "-de gozai-masu" is fancy version of "-de (ari-ma)su"
> So, is irassharu the polite word for imasu?
Irassharu <-- irase-haru it's originally plite word for "to come".
kuru? -> ki-masu-ka? -> irasshai-masu-ka?
But it's also used as 'i-ru'. ( I don't know why.)
iru? -> i-masu-ka? -> irasshai-masu-ka?
muchan
Gerald B Mathias
Bruce Tomlin (bto...@crl.com) wrote:
: Brandon Berg <bb...@flash.net> wrote in sci.lang.japan:
: >knowledge, kudasaru and irassharu are only used as irasshai and kudasai.
: >At least, according to my dictionary. At the risk of adding several
: Hmm... I would have thought it was kudaru from the kanji it uses, but
: that didn't seem quite right. ("To go down" or "to go toward Tokyo" as
: "please"?)
"Kudaru" '[it] moves to a lower place.' "Kudasu" 'moves [it] to a
lower place.' "Kudas-ar-u" is a very old "honorific passive" of the
latter, thus "(his/her/your worship) moves it to a lower place,
that is, gives it to me." "Kudasaru" is a perfectly normal verb,
occurring in all normal forms that aren't semantically invalid;
"kudasarimashoo" is a near example of a semantically invalid case.
If you ever see it, it would have to mean the same as "kudasaru-
deshoo."
"Nasaru" is a similar construction from "nas-" 'make,' the v.t.
corresponding to "nar-" 'become.' '(His/her/your worship) makes
it (so) = does it.' "Nasar-," like "irassyar-" and "ossyar-,"
is a full verb, occurring in the normal range of forms, such as
"nasaranakatta," "irassyarinagara" (not "irassyainagara"--the "r"
drops only before "-imas-"), "ossyatte," and so forth.
"Gozaimasu" on the other hand now occurs only in "-masu (-masita,
-masen[desita], possibly -masite)" forms.
: Nasaru is the honorific form of suru. It is most commonly heard as
: "-te nasai", which I understand is its command form. (irregular?)
"...-te nasai" would be a contraction of "...-te *i*nasai" 'Keep
...ing.' The normal form of a verb preceding "nasai" is the
stem = ren'yookei form, often with a preceding "o-" (as in
"oide nasai, okaeri nasai, etc."), or in the case of "suru
(Sino-Japanese) verbs," sometimes just the pre-"suru" word,
possibly preceded with a "go-." (But I think "benkyoosi nasai"
is now more natural than "benkyoo nasai"? Another one of my
fuzzy spots.)