keigo
Ben Bullock
Cross-posted to sci.lang.japan
Rob (m97...@seinan-gu.ac.jp) wrote:
> In article <1996042312...@gol1.gol.com>, Collin Park
> <cp...@gol.com> wrote:
> > Does it throw you off when someone who you thought of as an equal speaks
> > keigo to you? Today I got off the bus at the same time as some other
> > employees. They're younger, but I don't often think of myself as "an old
> > guy" either. Not having all my wits about me at the time, I talked like a
> > text-book: "Doko kara kimashita ka?" (Himeji) "Dono gurai kakarun deshou
> > ka?" (2 hours, Himeji to Kobe hi-tech park)
> >
> > But one of them used the passive-like polite form (not like "omae ni
> > korarete, mou kaeritai" but "kuruma de koraremasen") with me, which made me
> > feel a little strange. I mean, I'm not a customer or anything.
> >
> > Is it just me? Should I just give up and get used to it?
> The language you are referring to is not "keigo". You were using
> the polite form of Japanese and it it not at all uncommon.
No, the stuff in Collin Park's article is definitely keigo.
> Since you can't change the world, it'd be better to get used to it.
> Although you never have to come to like it. The real things that burn
> are "O-hashi wa jouzu desu neh" And "Nihingo was jouzu desu ne". I hear
> that 100 times a day--never any variation, just those EXACT words over
> and over again. You just gotta get numb to it, choose a method that
> works best for you.
"Nihongo ga jouzu desu" is a phrase like "ii kagen na", "uso tsuke" or
"baka ie" which means exactly the opposite of what it says. If
someone said to you "nihongo ga jouzu desu" then you know that you
need to practice a lot more.
--
Ben Bullock @ KEK (national lab. for high energy physics, Tsukuba, Japan)
e-mail: b...@theory.kek.jp www: http://theory.kek.jp:80/~ben/
Mark Barton
In article <4lqiqr$a...@keknews.kek.jp> Ben Bullock, b...@theory4.kek.jp
writes:
>From: Ben Bullock, b...@theory4.kek.jp
>Rob (m97...@seinan-gu.ac.jp) wrote:
>> In article <1996042312...@gol1.gol.com>, Collin Park
>> <cp...@gol.com> wrote:
I've lost track of the attributions, sorry.
>> Since you can't change the world, it'd be better to get used to it.
>> Although you never have to come to like it. The real things that burn
>> are "O-hashi wa jouzu desu neh" And "Nihingo was jouzu desu ne". I hear
>> that 100 times a day--never any variation, just those EXACT words over
>> and over again. You just gotta get numb to it, choose a method that
>> works best for you.
>
>"Nihongo ga jouzu desu" is a phrase like "ii kagen na", "uso tsuke" or
>"baka ie" which means exactly the opposite of what it says. If
>someone said to you "nihongo ga jouzu desu" then you know that you
>need to practice a lot more.
Ben makes it sound more sarcastic than it is, at least in my
experience. It is generally used with the nuance "thanks for making
the effort to learn a bit of Japanese". Nonetheless, when people stop
saying it, you've moved from the dabbler-needing-encouragement stage
and are actually getting somewhere. "Pera-pera" is another phrase of
encouragement that is nice to hear to begin with but should not be
taken literally.
Cheers,
Mark B.
Dwayne Fujima
In article <DqK4y...@inssun.ins.u-tokyo.ac.jp>,
Mark Barton <mba...@icrr.u-tokyo.ac.jp> wrote:
>In article <4lqiqr$a...@keknews.kek.jp> Ben Bullock, b...@theory4.kek.jp
>writes:
>>"Nihongo ga jouzu desu" is a phrase like "ii kagen na", "uso tsuke" or
>>"baka ie" which means exactly the opposite of what it says.
>Nonetheless, when people stop
>saying it, you've moved from the dabbler-needing-encouragement stage
>and are actually getting somewhere.
I heard this from a friend that is pretty fluent in the language (he
occasionally does translations to and from Japanese/English/Dutch.
"You know you are getting really fluent in Japanese when they laugh
out loud at your mistakes and ask you how you could have made such a
silly error"
I'm quite a ways from fluency by this test :-)
W Dinsmore
>> > Since you can't change the world, it'd be better to get used to it.
>> > Although you never have to come to like it. The real things that burn
>> > are "O-hashi wa jouzu desu neh" And "Nihingo was jouzu desu ne". I hear
>> > that 100 times a day--never any variation, just those EXACT words over
>> > and over again. You just gotta get numb to it, choose a method that
>> > works best for you.
>>
>> someone said to you "nihongo ga jouzu desu" then you know that you
>> need to practice a lot more.
>
>had that flailed at me. And my Japanese is pretty-much fluent, when I call
>a company or someone's house, I have to repeat my name several times
>because they can't understand I'm NOT Japanese.
I agree here. I've been hit with it when I only said something like, "su'imasen"
(one of the most useful words in the Japanese vocabulary). I've also been in the
situation where I've had to explain to someone on the phone that I'm not Japanese.
Another meaning of the "Nihongo wa jouzu desu ne," response is an expression of
surprise: "Hey! You speak Japanese! What a shock--I saw you were a foreigner so I
was expecting English."
Now the "Ohashi wa jouzu" comment is irritating, especially when it comes from
colleagues you've been eating lunch with for years. Besides, I learned to use
chopsticks in America, eating Chinese food. There are two responses: either
compliment their use of a knife and fork, or "accidently" drop your sushi in their
lap. ;-)
Cheers!
Wendy
T. Colin Mack
W Dinsmore wrote:
> Now the "Ohashi wa jouzu" comment is irritating, especially when it comes from
> colleagues you've been eating lunch with for years. There are two responses: either
> compliment their use of a knife and fork, or "accidently" drop your sushi in their
> lap. ;-)
My favorite response was posted here (I think) a while back:
"Thank you. Of course in England we use three."
Haven't had the guts to try this one out yet, though.
*******************************************************************
T. Colin Mack Satelight, Inc.
co...@bug.co.jp Sapporo, Japan
-------------------------------------------------------------------
This signature is under construction...
*******************************************************************
David L Burkhead
In article <4m6oil$a...@saver.sipo.sega.co.jp> W Dinsmore <3200...@mac.sega.co.jp> writes:
[ oops, lost an attribution here ]
>>> "Nihongo ga jouzu desu" is a phrase like "ii kagen na", "uso tsuke" or
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>> someone said to you "nihongo ga jouzu desu" then you know that you
>>> need to practice a lot more.
>>
>> Again, it depends. I've just said 'arigatou' in a department store and
[ 8< ]
>
>I agree here. I've been hit with it when I only said something like, "su'imasen"
>(one of the most useful words in the Japanese vocabulary). I've also been in the
>situation where I've had to explain to someone on the phone that I'm not Japanese.
>Another meaning of the "Nihongo wa jouzu desu ne," response is an expression of
>surprise: "Hey! You speak Japanese! What a shock--I saw you were a foreigner so I
>was expecting English."
>
The one time I encountered the phrase I marked above was in a
reply to a fax I'd sent to one of my Japanese penpals (congratulating
her on her forthcoming marriage). In her reply, she appologized for not
writing in English, followed immediately by the statement "nihongo ga
jouzu desu." My take on that was as part of the apology. You see, in
an earlier message I'd apologized for the long turnaround in my writing
back because I was having difficulty reading Japanese. We sent letters
back and forth by FAX and sometimes the letters I received weren't
terribly clear and that made it particularly hard to read when I often
had to guess just what a character was (hard enough with kana--really
daunting with kanji). After that, she started writing back to me in
English, but I continued to send both English and Japanese to her.
And, so, with this last message she wrote back in Japanese and
added the apology, plus the comment about being skillful in Japanese.
So my take was that it meant something like "I'm sorry for writing in
Japanese, but you should be able to read it because your Japanese is
getting pretty good."
I could be wrong of course.
David L. Burkhead
r3d...@dax.cc.uakron.edu
FAX: 330-253-4490
W Dinsmore
r3d...@dax.cc.uakron.edu (David L Burkhead ) wrote:
>>>> someone said to you "nihongo ga jouzu desu" then you know that you
>>>> need to practice a lot more.
>
>>Another meaning of the "Nihongo wa jouzu desu ne," response is an expression of
>>surprise: "Hey! You speak Japanese! What a shock--I saw you were a foreigner so I
>>was expecting English."
> The one time I encountered the phrase I marked above was in a
>reply to a fax I'd sent to one of my Japanese penpals (congratulating
>her on her forthcoming marriage).
[details snipped here <:-) ]
>
> And, so, with this last message she wrote back in Japanese and
>added the apology, plus the comment about being skillful in Japanese.
>So my take was that it meant something like "I'm sorry for writing in
>Japanese, but you should be able to read it because your Japanese is
>getting pretty good."
>
Or, "Sorry for writing in Japanese, but you should be able to handle it."
"Nihongo wa jouzu" is definitely not a phrase to be taken seriously. It's a response
to hearing something Japanese out of a foreigner. Best response is to smile and say
"domo" and forget it.
A good sign that a Japanese speaker has too much faith in you is when he responds to
your Japanese with a rapid-fire stream of completely unfamiliar terms and expects you
to understand. Either you nod your head and pretend, or you say something like, "Ano..."
Then the two of you stare helplessly at each other for a few minutes and the cycle
begins again. ;-)
Cheers!
Wendy
http://www.iac.co.jp/~chronic/index.html ("WWWW Japan Page")
Carl Freire
In article <4m9e5t$o...@saver.sipo.sega.co.jp>,
W Dinsmore <3200...@mac.sega.co.jp> wrote:
>Or, "Sorry for writing in Japanese, but you should be able to handle it."
>"Nihongo wa jouzu" is definitely not a phrase to be taken seriously. It's
a response
>to hearing something Japanese out of a foreigner. Best response is to
smile and say
>"domo" and forget it.
<snip>
An even better response is to say something along the lines of, "Iie, iie,
sono koto wa nai n desu yo!" which invariably elicits further compliments
and talk of how Japanese it is to refuse the compliment in such a way. I
think it's a better strategy to score points in this way than to just
forget about it. Which is not to say there's anything wrong with just
forgetting about it; I'd just rather score points when I can! Of course,
if it's the cabbie who's saying this and I'm in the mood to talk, it's
usually a good icebreaker to hear some interesting stories. One cabbie
told me what it was like to be a Korean-Japanese (I refuse to say
"zai-Nichi Kankokujin") while another gave me the rundown on where famous
foreigners had lived in Kyoto (Donald Keene lived very near to my house
when he was in Kyoto).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl Freire / "655,360 bytes is more than enough for
Kyoto, Japan / any application we could ever develop."
cp...@mbox.kyoto-inet.or.jp / -- Bill Gates, Aug. 1983
----------------------------------------------------------------------
W Dinsmore
cp...@mbox.kyoto-inet.or.jp (Carl Freire) wrote:
>In article <4m9e5t$o...@saver.sipo.sega.co.jp>,
>W Dinsmore <3200...@mac.sega.co.jp> wrote:
>
Best response is to
>smile and say
>>"domo" and forget it.
><snip>
>
>An even better response is to say something along the lines of, "Iie, iie,
>sono koto wa nai n desu yo!" which invariably elicits further compliments
>and talk of how Japanese it is to refuse the compliment in such a way. I
>think it's a better strategy to score points in this way than to just
>forget about it.
True. I've usually said the same as you if the person seems friendly enough and
wants to talk (learned a lot of interesting stuff this way). However, if it just
seems like an annoyance, I've learned to say thanks and not take it personally.
Sorry to sound so negative--hadn't meant to. I guess it all comes down to your
personal outlook on things. :-)
Cheers!
Wendy
Marc Lamphier
In article <m97604-09...@160.23.62.61>, m97...@seinan-gu.ac.jp (Rob)
wrote:
>
> > True. I've usually said the same as you if the person seems friendly enough and
> > wants to talk (learned a lot of interesting stuff this way). However, if it just
> > seems like an annoyance, I've learned to say thanks and not take it personally.
> >
> > Sorry to sound so negative--hadn't meant to. I guess it all comes down to your
> > personal outlook on things. :-)
>
>
>
> ..And your mood!! After meeting 5 people at a party and EACH and EVERY
> single one says 'nihongo ha jouzu desu neh' like a broken record, it's hard
> to just keep smiling.
>
>
> Or even if you are as patient as a saint, talking with someone for
> a while and telling them you've lived here for more than 8 years,
This is actually one of my standard responses. "ya...nihon ha mou nagai
desu yo -- yahari dekinakattara chotto okashii yo ne!" Of course it has
little effect, and I usually hear in reply "sore ni shite mo, gaigokujin ga
konna ni shaberu nante, taishita koto desu yo!". But when I used to live in
Osaka I had a response that was sure-fire: "Hyoujin-go ha mada iin desuga,
Osaka-ben wo enryou shite kudasai yo --- ha ha ha ha!" Of course sometimes
the person would then start to teach me Osaka-ben -- but of course no
method is perfect. In any case this hasn't worked since I moved to Tokyo.
Another joke is to pretend you don't understand what the person is saying
.... " Nihon - go ? "Jaws".... Nihon-go jaws?" yaaa....wakarimasen ne..."
But usually I'm the only one that finds this funny.
-Marc
-Marc
W Dinsmore
m97...@seinan-gu.ac.jp (Rob) wrote:
>
>>I guess it all comes down to your
>> personal outlook on things. :-)
>
> ..And your mood!! After meeting 5 people at a party and EACH and EVERY
>single one says 'nihongo ha jouzu desu neh' like a broken record, it's hard
>to just keep smiling.
But you gaman, and you smile, and life goes on until the next one... ;-)
>
>
> Or even if you are as patient as a saint, talking with someone for
>a while and telling them you've lived here for more than 8 years, and
>getting the question, "Oh! Can you read hiragana??" (Of course, asking if
>we could write kanji would be out of the question)-- I mean, sheesh. We
>are not well-endowed chimpanzees; when the Japanese STOP asking questions
>like that, then I can truly say thet are becoming "internationalized".
Oh, how I HATE that. I had a friend who I'd been working out with, and I think we'd
known each other for over a year when one day, we went out to a restaurant. On the
train, I mentioned something about an advertisement, and that set her off: "Oh, you
can read KANJI?! What does that one say? Or that one? Or that one?" And then she
wondered why I got angry. I am not a trained dog and don't expect to be treated
like one.
>
> In my experiences, it many ways it has been HARD to make friends
>here, I mean real friends.
The most interesting thing is that the people I'm most likely to become true
friends with are people who have been abroad for a suitable period of time (say a
year or two). That goes for any nationality.
>
Hmph. People. ;-)
Cheers!
Wendy
Stefan Kukula
In article <4mufcd$4...@saver.sipo.sega.co.jp>, W Dinsmore
<3200...@mac.sega.co.jp> wrote:
> >In my experiences, it many ways it has been HARD to make friends
> >here, I mean real friends.
> The most interesting thing is that the people I'm most likely to become true
> friends with are people who have been abroad for a suitable period of
time (say a
> year or two). That goes for any nationality.
The first REAL (can call round without notice, don't get offended if we
say or receive 'sorry, very busy' as a response) non-work Japanese friends
we made after the E*. There's nothing like living in the same evacuation
centre for breaking down those cultural barriers. Even let us baby sit
without thinking we'd eat their children. Unfortunately, they've now moved
out of the area :-(
{Not that we want another opportunity to make friends in that particular
manner..}
Stef
--
|Dr. Stefan Kukula [Disclaimer: *I* said this, NOT Kobe Steel!]|
|Kobe Steel MechEngLab, Kobe JAPAN Tel:078-992-5641/Fax:078-993-2056|
|aa0...@giken.kobelco.co.jp Kobe Steel: http://www.kobelco.co.jp|
| My Home Page: http://www.angelfire.com/free/stefankukula.html |
Reuben Muns
W Dinsmore <3200...@mac.sega.co.jp> wrote:
>The most interesting thing is that the people I'm most likely to become true
>friends with are people who have been abroad for a suitable period of time (say a
>year or two). That goes for any nationality.
An oddity I have often pondered is that I can converse in
Japanese more comfortably with the Japanese associates who are
fluent in English. I think perhaps this paradox may be due to
the fact that since they are bilingual, they tend to be more
aware of my limitations, and choose their vocabulary accordingly.
Reuben
Don Kirkman
.Previously on Usenet, W Dinsmore <3200...@mac.sega.co.jp> wrote:
>m97...@seinan-gu.ac.jp (Rob) wrote:
>>>I guess it all comes down to your
>>> personal outlook on things. :-)
>> ..And your mood!! After meeting 5 people at a party and EACH and EVERY
>>single one says 'nihongo ha jouzu desu neh' like a broken record, it's hard
>>to just keep smiling.
>But you gaman, and you smile, and life goes on until the next one... ;-)
>> Or even if you are as patient as a saint, talking with someone for
>>a while and telling them you've lived here for more than 8 years, and
>>getting the question, "Oh! Can you read hiragana??" (Of course, asking if
>>we could write kanji would be out of the question)-- I mean, sheesh. We
>>are not well-endowed chimpanzees; when the Japanese STOP asking questions
>>like that, then I can truly say thet are becoming "internationalized".
>Oh, how I HATE that. I had a friend who I'd been working out with, and I think we'd
>known each other for over a year when one day, we went out to a restaurant. On the
>train, I mentioned something about an advertisement, and that set her off: "Oh, you
>can read KANJI?! What does that one say? Or that one? Or that one?" And then she
>wondered why I got angry. I am not a trained dog and don't expect to be treated
>like one.
>> In my experiences, it many ways it has been HARD to make friends
>>here, I mean real friends.
>The most interesting thing is that the people I'm most likely to become true
>friends with are people who have been abroad for a suitable period of time (say a
>year or two). That goes for any nationality.
Been there, had that done to me <G>. But it *does* put me in mind of
how we USians treat so many of our new Asian immigrants, not to mention
our Asian Americans whose families may have been here longer than our
own. See, people really *are* the same the world over, neh? Gambatte!
--
Don
Rob
> > Or even if you are as patient as a saint, talking with someone for
> > a while and telling them you've lived here for more than 8 years,
>
> desu yo -- yahari dekinakattara chotto okashii yo ne!" Of course it has
> little effect, and I usually hear in reply "sore ni shite mo, gaigokujin ga
> konna ni shaberu nante, taishita koto desu yo!". But when I used to live in
> Osaka I had a response that was sure-fire: "Hyoujin-go ha mada iin desuga,
> Osaka-ben wo enryou shite kudasai yo --- ha ha ha ha!" Of course sometimes
> the person would then start to teach me Osaka-ben -- but of course no
> method is perfect. In any case this hasn't worked since I moved to Tokyo.
> Another joke is to pretend you don't understand what the person is saying
> .... " Nihon - go ? "Jaws".... Nihon-go jaws?" yaaa....wakarimasen ne..."
> But usually I'm the only one that finds this funny.
Different culture, different sense of homor, I guess. The only
real answer I've thought of saying (but I haven't tried yet) is asking
them "If you lived in France for 13 years, wouldn't you be able to
speak French??".
The only possible drawback though is if they turn that into
another
psuedo-humbleness vicious cycle of "oh, no, I could never learn that..."
Well, who knows, maybe someone will FINALLY put all this down in
a book for the Japanese to read!
Cheers,
Rob
Rob
I
>
> This is an interesting thread, and I have been trying to think of how I
> have made various Japanese friends. The "English language teacher" routine
> seems to be a rather poor way -- although I have had moderately good
> experiences with people with whom I have exchanged Japanese for English
> lessons. The best friends I have made recently have been through playing
> basketball. I don't know what it is -- but I think when you are playing
> sports you are just regarded as another team member. In any case I have
> made great friends at the gym at my university with people from a whole
> variety of backgrounds. I also have some pretty good friends in my lab, but
> its not quite the same. One big problem for me is that I don't enjoy the
> Japanese style of "loosening up" which is to drink a lot and throw up in
> the train station on the way home. Also I don't like hanging out with a
> bunch of people who smoke -- so that eliminates a lot of social outings
> (guess I should lighten up -- no pun intended). I also think age and
> marital status has a lot to do with it. When I was just out of high school
> I made friends easily in Japan, many of whom I still maintain contact with.
> In fact I knew few non-Japanese when I was here in my teens and 20's. As an
> old man, and married, I have less interest in hanging out and sort of feel
> I should spend my free time with my wife (since she otherwise never sees
> me).
Actually I have had mixed results. I WILL NOT go thru the language
exchange again because unless the other person's language ability is
comparable to yours, it is likely to be very lopsided and get very
irritating in a hurry.
Also, if I go into the country on my motorcycle with others, on a
break the Japanese tend to ONLY talk about motorcycles. Someone has a mag
of some new bike and the others gawk over it-- Segee baiku da neh...
With non-Japanese, you talk about anything
BUT bikes!!
--Rob
Stefan Kukula
In article <4n03nj$d...@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>, rm...@primenet.com
(Reuben Muns) wrote:
> An oddity I have often pondered is that I can converse in
> Japanese more comfortably with the Japanese associates who are
> fluent in English.
A couple of years ago, when my Japanese was (even) more rudimentary than
it is now we went to a restaurant. The waiter came over, and asked if we
understood Japanese. 'Yes, if you keep it slow and simple,' we said. He
looked at us, thought a little, then said 'I'll get Keiko (or something)
to serve you, as she has American friends.'
Service was fine after that; all orders & responses to & from Keiko were
in Japanese. When I asked her why she served us rather than someone else,
she basically said that it's easier for someone who understands the
problems to talk slower etc.
I think that may well be what you found.
W Dinsmore
Well, after listening to lots of opinions, hereﾕs a list of suggestions:
PROBLEM: Youﾕve been in Japan for eight years and speak the language
fairly well. You go to a party, bump into one or two people and mumble
ﾒsumimasen.ﾓ Everyone you bump into responds with the compliment, ﾒAa,
Nihongo wa jouzu desu neh!ﾓ
What this means:
1) Oh, hey! You speak Japanese!
2) Nice weather weﾕre having, donﾕt you think?
3) Your accent was pretty good when you said ﾒsumimasen.ﾓ Wow!
How to respond:
1) Iie, iie, sonna koto wa nain desu yo! [Or other somesuch denial--the
degree of self-deprecating humbleness is up to you.]
2) Uhh... what? Ni-hon-go wa... uhh, jawzoo? Wakarimasen. [Said in a
really annoying American accent.]
3) Anata mo jouzu desu ne.
4) Aa, domo.
5) Mo hachi nen desu yo. Yahari dekinakattara chotto okashii deshoo!
6) [A Japanese reply so elaborate and florid that I canﾕt write it here ﾔ
cause Iﾕm not that jouzu. ;-)]
7) AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!! [Said before you either run from the
room or hose down the entire party with a fire extinguisher. But do the
fire extinguisher thing only if you want a first class tour of the inside
of a koban. ;-)]
But you gotta laugh. Consider it one of the challenges involved with life
in Japan.
Hmm, maybe I should add this to my homepage, right next to the section on
chopsticks....
Cheers!
Wendy
Japan Angst! and other stuff:
http://www.iac.co.jp/‾chronic/index.html
Stefan Kukula
In article <lamphier-1...@a16.dial.twics.com>,
lamp...@m.u-tokyo.ac.jp (Marc Lamphier) wrote:
> eventually he came out with the inevitable "Nihon-go ga jouzu
> desu ne" -- to which I satirically responded "anata mo naka-naka jouzu
> desu". Well, he took it as a compliment (!?). After a little more
> conversation I find out he's Korean and had only been studying Japanese a
> year or two longer than I (and all along I thought his accent was
> Kyushu-ben or something). :-/
>
> What goes around comes around?
I was at the cheap haircut place under the tracks in Motomachi, Kobe (780
yen; worth a try if you're sick of standard rip off prices), and the guy
cutting my hair was asking everything in pigeon English. 'How long?' 'You
like here?'
Finally I came out with
'Nihongo demo ii..'
Blank looks. Turns out everyone there is Chinese, and this guy spoke no
Japanese whatsoever...
[And no, *I* can't tell the difference from looks alone...]
Chuck Douglas
Stefan Kukula (aa0...@giken.kobelco.co.jp) wrote:
: I was at the cheap haircut place under the tracks in Motomachi, Kobe (780
: yen; worth a try if you're sick of standard rip off prices), and the guy
I have heard of that place. Didn't quite have the nerve to try it though.
I used a place that ran about 1500 for students. Anyway....
: cutting my hair was asking everything in pigeon English. 'How long?' 'You
: like here?'
: Finally I came out with
: 'Nihongo demo ii..'
: Blank looks. Turns out everyone there is Chinese, and this guy spoke no
: Japanese whatsoever...
: [And no, *I* can't tell the difference from looks alone...]
Realistically, I don't think anyone can. However, a Chinese accent in
Japanese is quite noticeable. But, since they didn't speak Japanese,
you wouldn't have noticed this.
--
Chuck Douglas -- chuc...@prairienet.org
"I don't pretend I have all the answers/Just the obvious ones"
--_Backbone_ by Baby Animals
Homepage now available at: http://jaka.ece.uiuc.edu/~chuckers/
H.L. van Kooten
m97...@seinan-gu.ac.jp (Rob) wrote:
>Cheers,
> Rob
Why not tell the Japanese that his Japanese is also very jouzu. They
really don't know how to react on that (Yes, I tried, they were
flabbergasted).
Loek.
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Stefan Kukula
In article <319886...@lle.rochester.edu>, Kenton Green
<kg...@lle.rochester.edu> wrote:
> This, I think,
> goes against the common belief held by many Asians that they *can* tell the
> difference; of course they may be counting on other, small clues like posture
> and clothing, etc.
Reminds me of a hanami we had a while [2 years] back with a group from
work; 2 Brits, 1 American, 1 Pakistani & 1 Japanese. A passing Japanese
housewife chatted with us, and complimented us on our Japanese, 'toku ni
Kankoku no kata...'
We never did tell her of her mistake, but he was *not* happy about that...
Andreas Fels
do...@a.crl.com (Don Kirkman) wrote:
>.Previously on Usenet, W Dinsmore <3200...@mac.sega.co.jp> wrote:
>>m97...@seinan-gu.ac.jp (Rob) wrote:
>>>>I guess it all comes down to your
>>>> personal outlook on things. :-)
>>> ..And your mood!! After meeting 5 people at a party and EACH and EVERY
>>>single one says 'nihongo ha jouzu desu neh' like a broken record, it's hard
>>>to just keep smiling.
>>But you gaman, and you smile, and life goes on until the next one... ;-)
>>> Or even if you are as patient as a saint, talking with someone for
>>>a while and telling them you've lived here for more than 8 years, and
>>>getting the question, "Oh! Can you read hiragana??" (Of course, asking if
>>>we could write kanji would be out of the question)-- I mean, sheesh. We
>>>are not well-endowed chimpanzees; when the Japanese STOP asking questions
>>>like that, then I can truly say thet are becoming "internationalized".
>>Oh, how I HATE that. I had a friend who I'd been working out with, and I think we'd
>>known each other for over a year when one day, we went out to a restaurant. On the
>>train, I mentioned something about an advertisement, and that set her off: "Oh, you
>>can read KANJI?! What does that one say? Or that one? Or that one?" And then she
>>wondered why I got angry. I am not a trained dog and don't expect to be treated
>>like one.
>>> In my experiences, it many ways it has been HARD to make friends
>>>here, I mean real friends.
>>The most interesting thing is that the people I'm most likely to become true
>>friends with are people who have been abroad for a suitable period of time (say a
>>year or two). That goes for any nationality.
>Been there, had that done to me <G>. But it *does* put me in mind of
>how we USians treat so many of our new Asian immigrants, not to mention
>our Asian Americans whose families may have been here longer than our
>own. See, people really *are* the same the world over, neh? Gambatte!
>--
>Don
I just came back from a 1 1/2 months Japantrip and, according to this
thematic, I扉e been reminded of a dialogue I had with a female
japanese English teacher. When I met her and she asked me if I could
speak Japanese, I was only able to reply "sukoshi da..."("sukoshi
dake", I intended to say) before she interrupted me with an
astonished "Nihongo wa jouzu desu ne". I did not know what to think
about people like her, not even listening to your full reply before
they "prompt" their standard sentence.
Gerad Welch
Kenton Green <kg...@lle.rochester.edu> wrote:
>Except that Chinese-accented pidgin (not pigeon) English and Japanese-accented
>English are very distinct, to those who have heard a fair amount of both.
I've never really heard much Chinese deformed-English, but I would
imagine there is a difference there, since the Chinese and Japanese
sound systems are different. I'm not sure in which ways, exactly.
>As far as looks go; if you are in a non-metropolitan area of Asia for awhile,
>you usually can start to recognize subtle facial characteristics that give
>pretty good clues whether a person is from that area or not. Of course, with
>modern population mobility on the rise, this is less and less true...
>
>I seem to recall they have performed tests to determine whether or not Asians
>can determine the nationality of other Asians by looking at pictures of them,
>with other locator clues removed, and the routinely failed. This, I think,
>goes against the common belief held by many Asians that they *can* tell the
>difference; of course they may be counting on other, small clues like posture
>and clothing, etc. Also, I remember that the tests were performed in cities
>(naturally), whereas my conjecture involves rural populations.
I've generally found that most Asians /can/ tell the difference if
they're seeing the subject in person and the subject is a "purebred".
I don't know exactly what things give a person's heritage away, but I
would hazard a guess that it's a combination of facial features, body
structure (height, posture, and so on), and attitude. Of course,
there is stereotyping going on here, but as a general rule, it's
accurate. For example, if a particular Asian in question is short
(well, a lot of Asians are short...) they could be any of quite a few
different nationalities. But, say, if they have rather large eyes
(for an Asian, as the stereotype goes...but I can't begin to describe
the subtlety of the skill of "racial ID"...)and are perpetually late,
among other things, you might hazard a guess that they're Filipino (no
offense intended here to any Filipino who might be reading this, but
no Filipino I've ever met [including myself, but I'm only part
Filipino] is consistently punctual ^_^ ). After a bit of checking out
some Asians and then being informed of their nationality, I guess
subconsciously some people pick out archetypal features. It's
infinitely harder if the person's a "halfbreed" like me (most people
can tell I'm part Caucasian, and pick out the Chinese, but not the
Filipino, or the other way around) since the features are mixed.
Plus, since I wasn't born overseas, all of my mannerisms are uniquely
American -- a mish-mash of just about everything ^_^ Maybe I'm just
making excuses for my inaccuracy by blaming it on my partial
background ^_^ The whole notion of identifying an Asian's `race' by
appearance is an intuition thing; if you've been around enough of each
for long enough, it's just a feeling. Or something. Just my ni-sento
^_^ Ja na
>Kenton
Gerad M. Welch (::G)
"That which does not kill us <ac...@dayton.wright.edu>
only makes us stronger" - Friedrich Nietzsche <welc...@osu.edu>
GE/CS d s+: a18 C++(++++) UL++ P+>++ L++>+++ E--- W+>++ N- o? K-- w++
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h+ !r !y+
PGP Keyprint: 95 71 0D 87 85 68 29 62 54 FB 62 D3 C3 C7 35 83
Mike Wright
Gerad Welch wrote:
> Kenton Green <kg...@lle.rochester.edu> wrote:
> >Except that Chinese-accented pidgin (not pigeon) English and Japanese-accented
> >English are very distinct, to those who have heard a fair amount of both.
> I've never really heard much Chinese deformed-English, but I would
> imagine there is a difference there, since the Chinese and Japanese
> sound systems are different. I'm not sure in which ways, exactly.
> >As far as looks go; if you are in a non-metropolitan area of Asia for awhile,
> >you usually can start to recognize subtle facial characteristics that give
> >pretty good clues whether a person is from that area or not. Of course, with
> >modern population mobility on the rise, this is less and less true...
>
> >I seem to recall they have performed tests to determine whether or not Asians
> >can determine the nationality of other Asians by looking at pictures of them,
> >with other locator clues removed, and the routinely failed. This, I think,
> >goes against the common belief held by many Asians that they *can* tell the
> >difference; of course they may be counting on other, small clues like posture
> >and clothing, etc. Also, I remember that the tests were performed in cities
> >(naturally), whereas my conjecture involves rural populations.
[...]
I have a Chinese (Taiwanese) stepson who is married to a Korean. They recently
purchased an Asian market that has a large Korean clientele. Virtually all of
the Korean customers tried speaking Korean to my son, assuming that he was
Korean.
In a rather funny incident, my other Chinese stepson was once cornered by a
drunk on a Tokyo-area train who babbled on for about half an hour in Japanese.
On the other hand, my wife was visiting Taiwan and went shopping with her
sisters. In several shops, the shop keepers would speak Taiwanese to the sisters
and then try to speak English to my wife. She was furious! "I'm a real Chinese!
How come they think I'm a foreigner?"
Finally, a Nisei friend of mine, a translator who had lived in Japan for over
twenty years, had a Japanese wife, and lived in a Japanese neighborhood, said,
"Japanese can tell that I am an American. I not only *speak* with an American
accent, I *walk* with an American accent."
Mike Wright
Masataka Noda
I hate Keigo. That is the one of the reason why I do not like Japan,
and decided to leave.
Masa
******Masataka Noda******
*****mn...@awinc.com*****
**British Columbia, Canada**
********今日もお元気で********
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/1325/
Yukio Okawa
In article <4pciau$r...@kryten.awinc.com>, mn...@awinc.com (Masataka Noda) wrote:
>I hate Keigo. That is the one of the reason why I do not like Japan,
>and decided to leave.
I was just wondering if there could be no differences among expressions
in English when people tell the same thing but to different kinds of
people for example, please allow me to say, an old and strict professor
of Brown University and kids playing skateboards in downtown LA.
Could I have opinions from native English speakers, please?
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/ / / Okawa __/__ /__/__/ Yukio Construction
___/___ / / / Big River ___/___ /__/__/ Happy Man Equipment
/\ / / / Rio Grande __|__/_ ___/___ Hombre Alegre Research
/ \ / / __/__ / / Center
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Ross TenEyck
yu...@b022.aone.net.au (Yukio Okawa) writes:
>I was just wondering if there could be no differences among expressions
>in English when people tell the same thing but to different kinds of
>people for example, please allow me to say, an old and strict professor
>of Brown University and kids playing skateboards in downtown LA.
>Could I have opinions from native English speakers, please?
Hmm... well, for starters, if you wanted to get the attention of each of
these people -- the old strict professor and the skateboard kid -- you'd
probably use, "Excuse me, sir," in one case, and, "Hey, you," in the
other. And the professor would be "Mr. Smith," or "Dr. Smith," or
"Professor Smith," and the kid would be "Tommy."
Other than that sort of thing... depending on whom you are, you might be
more formal with the professor, avoiding slang and such-like; but that
would hardly be universal. I can't think of explicit constructions that
are going to be even mostly universally different in one case than
another; I think the style of speech is far more likely to be affected
by your own background than that of the person to whom you're talking.
--
============== http://weber.u.washington.edu/~teneyck/home.html ==============
Ross TenEyck MS Mech Eng | A crow pecks at the wind-tossed scrap of paper,
ten...@u.washington.edu | scavenging between the lines of an old letter;
Tsuki ni kawatte oshioki yo! | he hoards stories like flecks of quartz.
Benjamin Barrett
I think pronunciation would change. Probably the more formal you get,
the less "wanna's" you would hear and the more "want to's" would come
out. (For US speakers of course). I think there are a lot of subtle
pronunciation rules like this.
Benjamin Barrett
gog...@ix.netcom.com
On 9 Jun 1996 02:05:59 GMT, yu...@b022.aone.net.au (Yukio Okawa)
wrote:
Charles Eicher
In article <4pdbi7$e...@news.mel.aone.net.au>, yu...@b022.aone.net.au
(Yukio Okawa) wrote:
> In article <4pciau$r...@kryten.awinc.com>, mn...@awinc.com (Masataka
Noda) wrote:
> >I hate Keigo. That is the one of the reason why I do not like Japan,
> >and decided to leave.
>
> I was just wondering if there could be no differences among expressions
> in English when people tell the same thing but to different kinds of
> people for example, please allow me to say, an old and strict professor
> of Brown University and kids playing skateboards in downtown LA.
>
> Could I have opinions from native English speakers, please?
hmm.. I can't really think of anything much, maybe you might find a bit of
passive voice and indirectness when addressing seniors (although this is
slightly hard for me to tell, after studying Japanese so long, these
language forms creep into my English usage).
For example, if I find a 12 year old punk kid skateboarding in my
driveway, I might say: "Get the hell out of here, punk!"
But if I found my teacher skateboarding in my driveway, I might say, "I
would prefer you to skate in another location."
----------------
Charles Eicher
cei...@inav.net
----------------
Bill Franke
Yukio Okawa (yu...@b022.aone.net.au) wrote:
: I was just wondering if there could be no differences among expressions
: in English when people tell the same thing but to different kinds of
: people for example, please allow me to say, an old and strict professor
: of Brown University and kids playing skateboards in downtown LA.
It all depends upon the context and content. When I was just a sophomore
and he was an old, strict, and very distinguished professor of American
history, I always addressed Professor James Blaine Hedges as "you" when
speaking to him, just as I would address skateboarding kids in downtown
L.A. as "you" when speaking to them.
However, if I wanted the good professor to speaker louder, I would be very
polite and say something like: "Excuse me, Professor Hedges, but {could
you/would you/I wonder if I might ask you to} please speak a little louder
so that we can hear in the back?" If I wanted the skateboarders to speak
louder, I would merely say: "Speak up. I can't hear you." Unless, of
course, they were very large and threatening or carrying guns or knives,
in which case I would use the most polite (i.e., the longest) form in the
list of alternatives in the above request to the professor.
There are polite and familiar forms in English as well as in Japanese, but
there is no separate keigo in English. In English, grammatical forms and
the length of the expression -- as well as the tone of voice and the use
of expressions such as "excuse me" and "please" -- indicate politeness.
You might tell a spouse or sibling or scion to "Shut the window. It's
cold in here." but you would ask the crotchety old Brown U. professor:
"Excuse me, Professor, but I wonder if I might ask you to please close the
window. It seems very cold in here to me." If you were to speak this way
to harmless skateboarding kids on downtown LA streets, you would probably
be wasting your irony. Use of conditionals and modals ("if I might") and
words that express deference, tentativeness, and hesitation ("I wonder if
I might" & "It seems...to me") express politeness in English in almost the
same way as keigo does in Japanese.
The average native English speaker is probably a bit more familiar with
these forms than with how to use the subjunctive, and where and when and
whether to use the accusative pronoun "me" instead of the nominative "I"
or "whom(ever)" instead of "who(ever)" or "fewer" instead of "less."
OTOH, the use of these forms by native English speakers is fast fading, as
is, it seems, the use of keigo by young Japanese.
Years ago when I first went to Japan and was first learning Japanese, I
asked a 10-year-old her name. When she told me, I repeated it and added
"-san." She laughed out loud. I don't think she would have had I added
"-chan" instead.
Gerald B Mathias
Ross TenEyck (ten...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
: you'd
: probably use, "Excuse me, sir," in one case, and, "Hey, you," in the
: other.
This was really driven home for me one evening in 1957 on a densha from
Matsudo to Gokoo. I was talking to a couple of members of the Self
Defense forces and it came out that I knew the woman, a school teacher
originally from Boston, standing a couple meters down the aisle. One
of the soldiers decided to speak to her.
"Hey, you, Lady!"
I guess he didn't like keigo either! (To the best of my recollection,
she showed no offense, but I remember it as the second funniest line
I've ever heard uttered in a foreign-to-the-speaker language.)
Bart Mathias
Martin Tom Brown
In article <4pdbi7$e...@news.mel.aone.net.au>
yu...@b022.aone.net.au "Yukio Okawa" writes:
> In article <4pciau$r...@kryten.awinc.com>, mn...@awinc.com (Masataka Noda) wrote:> >I hate Keigo. That is the one of the reason why I do not like Japan,
> >and decided to leave.
>
> I was just wondering if there could be no differences among expressions
> in English when people tell the same thing but to different kinds of
> people for example, please allow me to say, an old and strict professor
> of Brown University and kids playing skateboards in downtown LA.
>
> Could I have opinions from native English speakers, please?
In the UK there are a handful of cases I can think of where there
are some Keigo type differences. They tend to occur when addressing
official figures, judges, politicians, gentry, bishops, lords and
royalty. Also the "correct" forms of reply vary with rank too.
An example I can recall was that a very strict senior lecturer who
once taught me used different forms of address for male students
and female students as a mark of respect.
There are also local dialect expressions that may be used sometimes.
But I don't count those.
Regards,
--
Martin Brown <mar...@nezumi.demon.co.uk> __ CIS: 71651,470
Scientific Software Consultancy /^,,)__/
Ei Murakami
記事 <4pciau$r...@kryten.awinc.com> にて
mn...@awinc.com (Masataka Noda) さん曰く、
>
>I hate Keigo. That is the one of the reason why I do not like Japan,
>and decided to leave.
It seems to me too simple. Maybe he could not stand something else
of Japan and represented it 'keigo.' Anyway, I think cultures are not
things you can choose between.
I once heard from a female friend of mine that she hated Japanese
language because it forced her to use different expressions from
men's. I think this is a larger problem of Japanese language if
'keigo' is a problem.
--
_ MURAKAMI Ei (村上 英)
__ e-m...@rinfo.sumiden.co.jp
___ Systems & Electronics R&D Center [in Osaka Works]
____ Sumitomo Electric Industries, Ltd. (ＳＥＩ, 住友電工)
Yukio Okawa
In article <4pgei6$o...@crl11.crl.com>, kis...@crl.com (Bill Franke) wrote:
>There are polite and familiar forms in English as well as in Japanese, but
>there is no separate keigo in English. In English, grammatical forms and
>the length of the expression -- as well as the tone of voice and the use
>of expressions such as "excuse me" and "please" -- indicate politeness.
>be wasting your irony. Use of conditionals and modals ("if I might") and
>words that express deference, tentativeness, and hesitation ("I wonder if
>I might" & "It seems...to me") express politeness in English in almost the
>same way as keigo does in Japanese.
Thank you so much. I was expecting to have this kind of opinion from
native English speakers. Keigo is almost the same thing.
Keigo is not just a set of gramatical rules. It's an expression of
respects, gratitude, admiration, politeness, consideration, and so on.
Even though you use gramatically correct Keigo, it can offend people
if you show no respects and politeness in your voice tone and attitude.
On the other hand, we can feel sincerity behind unsofisticated words
when the speaker shows it with non-verbal expressions.
(But correct use of Keigo indicates intelectual and educational level
of native Japanese speakers.)
>The average native English speaker is probably a bit more familiar with
>these forms than with how to use the subjunctive, and where and when and
>whether to use the accusative pronoun "me" instead of the nominative "I"
>or "whom(ever)" instead of "who(ever)" or "fewer" instead of "less."
>OTOH, the use of these forms by native English speakers is fast fading, as
>is, it seems, the use of keigo by young Japanese.
Unfortunately, not a small number of Japanese think there is no
counterpart of Keigo in English. They think that to be American
means to speak and behave boldly.
>Years ago when I first went to Japan and was first learning Japanese, I
>asked a 10-year-old her name. When she told me, I repeated it and added
>"-san." She laughed out loud. I don't think she would have had I added
>"-chan" instead.
Many Japanese kids realize that they have grown up when they are said
"-san" instead of "-chan."
In article <ceicher-0906...@dip22.inav.net>, cei...@inav.net (Charles Eicher) wrote:
>For example, if I find a 12 year old punk kid skateboarding in my
>driveway, I might say: "Get the hell out of here, punk!"
>But if I found my teacher skateboarding in my driveway, I might say, "I
>would prefer you to skate in another location."
So, I can't stop saying this to the boy skateboading in my favorite
newsgroup for matured adults although I know it's a bit impolite.
"Get the hell out of here, punk!"
>> In article <4pciau$r...@kryten.awinc.com>, mn...@awinc.com (Masataka
>Noda) wrote:
>> >I hate Keigo. That is the one of the reason why I do not like Japan,
>> >and decided to leave.
Yukio Okawa
Terry Traub
e-m...@rinfo.sumiden.co.jp (Ei Murakami) writes:
>記事 <4pciau$r...@kryten.awinc.com> にて
>mn...@awinc.com (Masataka Noda) さん曰く、
>>
>>I hate Keigo. That is the one of the reason why I do not like Japan,
>>and decided to leave.
>
> It seems to me too simple. Maybe he could not stand something else
>of Japan and represented it 'keigo.' Anyway, I think cultures are not
>things you can choose between.
>
> I once heard from a female friend of mine that she hated Japanese
>language because it forced her to use different expressions from
>men's. I think this is a larger problem of Japanese language if
>'keigo' is a problem.
>...
Westerners have to become good actors to survive in a linguistic and
cultural immersion situation in Japan or China. Indeed, this is true
to an extent for visitors in any country, east or west. Your female
friend is probably not very adaptable and should move to another
country rather than resent an entire culture.
Different expressions? Generally speaking, men and women in the US
also use many different expressions and have distinctly gender-
influenced speech patterns and intonation, though they may not realize
it. In addition, American English, let alone British English, is
simply full of polite but meaningless expressions intended to smooth
over a situation. Gee, I have to be diplomatic every day at work;
life was different when I was an immature college student living in
Taiwan!
When I try to use keigo I think of it as little politisms that will
make me seem more "Japanese" to people, and make them feel more
comfortable around me despite my huge nose and hazel eyes. This seems
well worth whatever demeaning connotation some of these expressions
might have, if translated into English.
Terry
--
Please don't do that; it stinks! -- anon.
Tulsa nightlife: filth, gin, a slut. -- Neil/Fred's Gigantic List of Palindromes
Thomas Kruemmer
> ttr...@world.std.com (Terry Traub) wrote in article
<Dt10o...@world.std.com>...
> e-m...@rinfo.sumiden.co.jp (Ei Murakami) writes:
>
> >記事 <4pciau$r...@kryten.awinc.com> にて
> >mn...@awinc.com (Masataka Noda) さん曰く、
> >>
> >>I hate Keigo. That is the one of the reason why I do not like Japan,
> >>and decided to leave.
> >
> > It seems to me too simple. Maybe he could not stand something else
> >of Japan and represented it 'keigo.' Anyway, I think cultures are not
> >things you can choose between.
> Westerners have to become good actors to survive in a linguistic and
> cultural immersion situation in Japan or China.
Well, I would like to put it this way:
- In English you do not find a comparable degree
of what "Keigo" is,
- In German it used to be there, but it
disappeard with the aristrocrats
- There certainly may have been Keigo in
Chinese, and there are still flowery terms to
describe everyday matters. Under the
communists, however, anyone being polite was
considered being a class-enemy. The simple
people the comunists meant to be representing
did not know how to communicate on a high
level (Keigo), consequently it was the
language of the class-enemy.
- Young Japanese entering the corporate world
also first of all need to attend in-house
training on the correct use of Keigo, even
for them it is not easy.
- Japanese non-confrontational ways of
expression do not at all depend on Keigo, one
can say the same thing in Keigo or in plain
Japanese language, and still there would
considerable room for interpretation, equally
confusing.
Learning Japanese is hell for us foreigners, but to no surprise the
Japanese feel the same way towards English, German, etc, because it is the
entire cultural concept that is reversed, fully reflected in the way
people communicate - language.
The group-shugi of the Japanese frustrates individualists and thereby
promotes mediocracy of the masses. I think, strong Japanese individualists
in Japan are either immeasurably rich (because they knew how to play the
society), writers - artists -actors (who are "allowed" to stand out), or
they migrate (internally or to foreign countries).
This, however, is unrelated to Keigo or it's use.
Greetings,
Chuck Douglas
Terry Traub (ttr...@world.std.com) wrote:
[edit]
: Different expressions? Generally speaking, men and women in the US
: also use many different expressions and have distinctly gender-
: influenced speech patterns and intonation, though they may not realize
: it.
While this is true to a certain extent, it is not nearly as rigid and
well-defined as it is in Japanese. There are far more expressions in
Japanese that are decidedly feminine or masculine than there are in
English.
Of course, these also depend on region.
John Reeves
here's a rough and ready framework for thinking about variation in
language, distilled from Halliday and Hasan (1985) and Eggins (199?)
distortions are entirely my fault.
broadly speaking, there are two kinds of variation:
dialect - variety according to user (especially location of user)
register - variety according to use (especially the situation)
dialect is complicated by the fact that in a single city there may
be speakers from different areas, and also by differences in social
location (ie sociolect).
register is formed out of a combination of purpose (what the inter-
action is for, eg buying stamps) and situation.
situation can be broken down into three main components: field,
tenor and mode.
field - the setting, those things and activities relevant to the
interaction, especially (but not only) the immediate physical
environment.
tenor - the social relationships between the participants,
including power (position in a social heirarchy) and solidarity
(how "close" people are, how well they are aligned, sharing
values etc). to this i would add, familiarity (how well people
know each other). all of these variables are "clines", they
operate by degree rather than being strictly either/or. also,
none of them mutually implicate each other.
mode - (here i am a little fuzzy) the "kind" of communication,
especially the purposes and channel (spoken/written, telephone,
email, usenet, etc)
for each dialect, the particular configuration of field, tenor
and mode determine the register. (but most registers to allow
a degree of flexibility, especially for negotiating social
relationships).
this framework can be made considerably more sophisticated
(i am thinking particularly of genre theory and subject positions)
but even as it stands, it is a considerable improvement on
simplistic divisions into "formal" and "informal" language.
from this perspective we quickly realise that all languages
recognise a large number of different registers, each with its
own peculiar style. these styles may vary in vocabularly,
brevity, syntax and all kinds of other variables.
this framework also allows us to begin to make sense of the
"mixed" styles which make up the overwhelming majority of
cases.
this last point is particularly relevant to students of
japanese, and - as far as i am aware - has hardly been looked
at.
john
Norman Hosokawa
In article <4nent4$j...@news.rrz.uni-koeln.de>,
> I just came back from a 1 1/2 months Japantrip and, according to this
> japanese English teacher. When I met her and she asked me if I could
> speak Japanese, I was only able to reply "sukoshi da..."("sukoshi
> dake", I intended to say) before she interrupted me with an
> astonished "Nihongo wa jouzu desu ne". I did not know what to think
> about people like her, not even listening to your full reply before
> they "prompt" their standard sentence.
You're judging too fast. We're talking about small talk here. What is
small talk? It's not supposed to discuss topics, it's supposed to get to
know each other (or at least to kill time). In a situation where I don't
know anything about you I first of all have to be careful to avoid
misteps/fautpas (Fettnaepfchen). So I will be thankful for every topic
that keeps the conversation going and does'nt bear arbitrary contents.
Guess how welcome it must be for a Japanese to hear you speak Japanese,
that's another step in small talk! Rob's party situation is perfect here:
Your partner wants to talk to you, he wants to keep conversation going,
but there is not much to say, because you two have just met. And now you
say "konnichiha". Your partner thinks "Great! I have something safe and
nice to say: "Nihongo ha ojoozu desu ne."
Rob
> You're judging too fast. We're talking about small talk here. What is
> small talk? It's not supposed to discuss topics, it's supposed to get to
> know each other (or at least to kill time). In a situation where I don't
> know anything about you I first of all have to be careful to avoid
> misteps/fautpas (Fettnaepfchen). So I will be thankful for every topic
> that keeps the conversation going and does'nt bear arbitrary contents.
> Guess how welcome it must be for a Japanese to hear you speak Japanese,
> that's another step in small talk! Rob's party situation is perfect here:
> Your partner wants to talk to you, he wants to keep conversation going,
> but there is not much to say, because you two have just met. And now you
> say "konnichiha". Your partner thinks "Great! I have something safe and
> nice to say: "Nihongo ha ojoozu desu ne."
But it's a great example of GROUPTHINK. And you hear it 100 times a day,
regardless of your ability. That's why it gets so grating on the nerves.
When I first came to Japan and had all my expressions mixed up, and
telling people "Ohayosumi nasai"--all I got was "Your Japanese is so
good!". Was it? Not by a long shot. And when they use those SAME EXACT
WORDS, never any variation, there is certainly no feeling of thankfulness
when it's heard.
It's all part of cultural stereotypes. If I was Chinese or Korean, that
would not be said. And NHK hammers home the exact same stereotypes that
everyone already has.
If changes are to come, they must come from within the Japanese them-
selves. It's called internationalization. So far what has come is only
a big joke. Most Japanese girls' idea of international is carrying a
Louis Vouitton bag and drinking Budweiser.
--Rob
Blaine Erickson
[Today's topic: Japanese people are quick to blurt out "Nihongo ojoozu
desu ne" whenever a foreigner speaks any Japanese, regardless of
fluency]
In a time when giants ruled the earth, m97...@seinan-gu.ac.jp (Rob)
wrote:
> But it's a great example of GROUPTHINK. And you hear it 100 times
> a day, regardless of your ability. That's why it gets so grating
> on the nerves. When I first came to Japan and had all my
> expressions mixed up, and telling people "Ohayosumi nasai"--all
> I got was "Your Japanese is so good!". Was it? Not by a long
> shot. And when they use those SAME EXACT WORDS, never any
> variation, there is certainly no feeling of thankfulness when
> it's heard.
An important part of language use is what we might call "set phrases"
(or to use the technical term, "interactional routines"). We all
learn them; they're things like "knock knock--who's there," "How are
you?--Fine, thanks," and what-not. These can run the range from
absolutely fixed wording with virtually no content to relatively free
wording and variable content, but the idea is the same: that they're
part of a predetermined linguistic routine.
Japanese (more accurately, Japanese culture) has a lot of these set
phrases. What matters most is not their content but their context.
You say _ohayoo gozaimasu_ at the start of the morning, or at the
start of work--even if work starts at night. You say _hajimemashite_
when you meet someone for the first time. And, if you're Japanese,
you say _Nihongo ojoozu desu ne_ when you first hear a foreigner speak
Japanese.
If you try to respond to this for the content of the message, you're
gonna be in trouble. If, however, you accept it as a set phrase, I
think the proper response is _doomo_.
As for the meaning, well, it probably depends on the person. Based on
the context, though, I'd say it means "you're a foreigner." Kind of
an obvious thing to say--but isn't it also obvious to say "it's early"
at 8:00 in the morning?
Blaine Erickson
eric...@hawaii.edu
Norman Hosokawa
In article <m97604-01...@160.23.62.61>, m97...@seinan-gu.ac.jp
(Rob) wrote:
> But it's a great example of GROUPTHINK. And you hear it 100 times a day,
> regardless of your ability. That's why it gets so grating on the nerves.
We have a problem with the concept of "appropriate" speech here.
People like you and me were brought up with the attitude, that you have
to
1) say the trouth and
2) say what you want (or think)
This is what we consider "appropriate" (natural/common sense) in personal
interaction.
Now think of a very small room, where 20 people have to live together
without choice:
they get so much adjusted to each other, that they no longer rely on
verbal verification
of mind or facts, they "tell" from their partners face. Using words for
what you want starts to become a very explicit action, like raising a flag
or using a megaphone.
Living together and talking with each other are always a set, everywhere
you go. In that small room, people first of all have to avoid collisons,
both in action and speech, so they sometimes a "truth" to themselves. And
they don't rely on hard-coded, verbal signals, but on more subtle things
like facial expressions, body moves, visible interactions of others etc.
And the way they use words, might become somewhat ritual: Words are a
layer for what you
actually want to say, but not the main medium for your message. And as
words get separated from actual dynamic meanings and nuances, they become
static routines (like the word "oishii")
Words start to get separated from messages, because messages are expressed
somewhere else. Sometimes verbal statements have a meaning opposite to the
actual message. Actually it sounds like a lie, but it's not.
It's just another way to talk. I'm absolutely sure that you might find a
whole lot of meanings for "Nihongo wa jouzu desu ne." if you watch the
face of partner carefully and consider his character, behaviour, attitude
etc. at the same time. Every "Nihongo wa jouzu desu ne." will get a
slightly different meaning, from close to zero up to "not bad". And it
would not at all be appropriate to SAY "not bad" if you mean "not bad",
because it's just too explicit, you're not supposed to talk that way.
What I want to say is, many of us who come from outside, hit two
(conceptual) walls in terms of communication:
concept 1) talking is EXPRESSION (of sbd. mind)
against: talking is INTERACTION (between minds)
concept 2) talking is expressing WHAT YOU THINK
against: talking is saying what is APPROPRIATE
(and if possible, expressing what you think through non-verbal
means)
> It's all part of cultural stereotypes. If I was Chinese or Korean, that
> would not be said.
For speaking Japanese, perhaps yes. But not for the general attitude.
> And NHK hammers home the exact same stereotypes that everyone already has.
Of course, they are not supposed to come up with a new attitude. Take
those funny Gaijin speech contests, it's like Speaker's Corner in London.
> If changes are to come, they must come from within the Japanese them-
> selves. It's called internationalization. So far what has come is only
> a big joke. Most Japanese girls' idea of international is carrying a
> Louis Vouitton bag and drinking Budweiser.
But as you see, there is no actual need to interact with foreigners,
except for English learning, trade and technology. I think that's why most
efforts to become international end up in these three fields, in
particular in trade: the most internationalized mind is to be seen in
terms of SELLING and CONSUMING things.
NORMAN
-------------------------------OPINIONS, PLEASE--------------------------------
Blaine Erickson
[The continuing saga of the issue of Japanese people and their love of
saying "Nihongo ojoozu desu ne" whenever a foreigner speaks any
Japanese, regardless of fluency]
I wrote something like:
> Japanese (more accurately, Japanese culture) has a lot of these
> set phrases. What matters most is not their content but their
> context. You say _ohayoo gozaimasu_ at the start of the morning,
> or at the start of work--even if work starts at night. You say
> _hajimemashite_ when you meet someone for the first time. And,
> if you're Japanese, you say _Nihongo ojoozu desu ne_ when you
> first hear a foreigner speak Japanese.
In response, Daniel Hanrahan <hanr...@fat.coara.or.jp> is widely
rumored to have composed:
> But meeting foreigners, and especially ones who speak a little
> Japanese, is not a regular routine for most Japanese people.
> It`s not a set situation which would develop set phrases the way
> seeing people in the morning, and first time meetings are. It`s
> not something they would have all learnt.
And yet he also wrote:
> I bet if you met someone who has never even seen a foreigner
> before, and spoke terrible Japanese to them , they`d still say
> "Nihongo o jouzu desu ne".
Do you see the contradiction in what you wrote? It *is* something
that they all learn. It may not be something that everyone gets to
use every day, but they still know what to say when the situation
arises. It's just like the set phrases for weddings and funerals.
Most people don't say those things all the time, but there are still
set phrases for those occasions, and people know what they are.
> I don`t think there`s anything deep and meaningful or mystical
> about [Japanese people saying "Nihongo o jouzu desu ne"].
Neither do I--and I don't think anyone else said they did, either.
> It`s just a piece of transparent flattery which helps overcome
> their awkwardness at meeting someone. The general thought
> process which happens in a split-second is:"If I tell them their
> Japanese is good it`ll make them feel good and then they`ll be
> happy and maybe like me a little and then our relationship will
> begin on lovely note".
Perhaps. I think it's just "what you're supposed to say," and there's
nothing deeper than that.
On a related note, I remember a Japanese acquaintance asking me why so
many foreigners, upon being told "Nihongo ojoozu desu ne," would
respond by saying something like, "Iie, zenzen hanasemasen." It was
obvious that they *could* speak Japanese, so why were they saying
that, he asked. I didn't have an answer at the time, but I have one
now. It's because Japanese people are always saying that they "can't
speak English," even when they can, and the foreigners, in trying to
sound appropriately Japanese, imitated this.
Of course, if you *do* say "Iie, zenzen hanasemasen" or whatever, you
then get into a long, drawn out cycle of compliments and denials.
This is why I think the right response is _doomo_: it ends that part
of the conversation, and you can get on to some content.
Blaine Erickson
eric...@hawaii.edu
Daniel Hanrahan
Blaine Erickson wrote:
>
> [Today's topic: Japanese people are quick to blurt out "Nihongo ojoozu
> desu ne" whenever a foreigner speaks any Japanese, regardless of
> fluency]
>
> An important part of language use is what we might call "set phrases"
> (or to use the technical term, "interactional routines"). We all
> learn them; they're things like "knock knock--who's there," "How are
> you?--Fine, thanks," and what-not.... they're
> part of a predetermined linguistic routine.
>
> Japanese (more accurately, Japanese culture) has a lot of these set
> phrases. What matters most is not their content but their context.
> You say _ohayoo gozaimasu_ at the start of the morning, or at the
> start of work--even if work starts at night. You say _hajimemashite_
> when you meet someone for the first time. And, if you're Japanese,
> you say _Nihongo ojoozu desu ne_ when you first hear a foreigner speak
> Japanese.
>
But meeting foreigners, and especially ones who speak a little Japanese,
is not a regular routine for most Japanese people. It`s not a set
situation which would develop set phrases the way seeing people in the
morning, and first time meetings are. It`s not something they would have
all learnt. The percentage of Japanese who have actually met a foreigner
speaking Japanese would be low (I guess), and those who meet foreigners
often would be lower. Only recently has it become more common.
But I bet Japanese people still said "Nihongo o jouzu desu ne" years and
years ago. I bet if you met someone who has never even seen a foreigner
before, and spoke terrible Japanese to them , they`d still say "Nihongo
o jouzu desu ne".
I don`t think there`s anything deep and meaningful or mystical about it.
It`s just a piece of transparent flattery which helps overcome their
awkwardness at meeting someone.
The general thought process which happens in a split-second is:"If I
tell them their Japanese is good it`ll make them feel good and then
they`ll be happy and maybe like me a little and then our relationship
will begin on lovely note".
No one in the world is particularly good at being completely natural and
truthful. But after 5 and a half years here one thing has become clear:
Japanese people are especially bad at it.
Daniel
Daniel Hanrahan
Daniel Hanrahan
First, sorry for posting the same message twice.
Daniel
***************************************************
Blaine Erickson wrote:
>
> [The continuing saga of the issue of Japanese people and their love of
> saying "Nihongo ojoozu desu ne" whenever a foreigner speaks any
> Japanese, regardless of fluency]
>
> I wrote something like:
>
> > Japanese (more accurately, Japanese culture) has a lot of these
> > set phrases. What matters most is not their content but their
> > context. You say _ohayoo gozaimasu_ at the start of the morning,
> > or at the start of work--even if work starts at night. You say
> > _hajimemashite_ when you meet someone for the first time. And,
> > if you're Japanese, you say _Nihongo ojoozu desu ne_ when you
> > first hear a foreigner speak Japanese.
>
> In response, Daniel Hanrahan <hanr...@fat.coara.or.jp> is widely
> rumored to have composed:
>
> > But meeting foreigners, and especially ones who speak a little
> > Japanese, is not a regular routine for most Japanese people.
> > It`s not a set situation which would develop set phrases the way
> > seeing people in the morning, and first time meetings are. It`s
> > not something they would have all learnt.
>
> And yet he also wrote:
>
> > I bet if you met someone who has never even seen a foreigner
> > before, and spoke terrible Japanese to them , they`d still say
> > "Nihongo o jouzu desu ne".
>
> Do you see the contradiction in what you wrote?
No, there`s no contradiction. Maybe I didn`t write clearly though.
It *is* something
> that they all learn. It may not be something that everyone gets to
> use every day, but they still know what to say when the situation
> arises.
What they learn , is not so much to say those words, or that exact
particular phrase, but awkwardness at first meetings and to give
compliments and say niceties to strangers. That`s what prompts them to
say Nihongo o jouzu desu ne - even if it`s obviously untrue.
In the meeting a foreigner situation Nihongo o jouzu desu ne is the most
obvious compliment that comes to mind. But Japanese don`t always use
those exact words. There are many other words used to express the same
transparent flattery.
What you originally said was:
> An important part of language use is what we might call "set phrases"
> (or to use the technical term, "interactional routines"). We all
> learn them; they're things like "knock knock--who's there," "How are
> you?--Fine, thanks," and what-not.... *****they're
> part of a predetermined linguistic routine.******
>
> Japanese (more accurately, Japanese culture) has a lot of these set
> phrases. What matters most is not their content but their context.
This is true of other expressions in Japanese (O tsukaresama desu; itte
kimasu; tadaima; shitsurei shimasu when entering or leaving a room;
moshi moshi for answering the phone. These are mostly context, not
content as you say.
But I don`t think it applies to the Nihongo o jouzu desu ne situation.
They don`t learn to say those particular words at that particular time.
They just all experience the same emotion in that situation. The emotion
prompts the false compliment.
But anyway, instead of us foreigners bickering about it, probably the
best thing is to get the answer straight from the horses mouth.
I might do a little survey of my Japanese students(I teach English and
so it`ll help me kill some lesson time), my wife, her family and
friends, and see if they can tell me why Japanese people say Nihongo o
jouzu desu ne. Is it a set phrase - "a predetermined linguistic routine"
like Good Morning etc, or is it a piece of flattery, or is it what they
really think, or is it something else etc.
(I hope they all answer truthfully....)
>Of course, if you *do* say "Iie, zenzen hanasemasen" or whatever, you
>then get into a long, drawn out cycle of compliments and denials.
>This is why I think the right response is _doomo_: it ends that part
>of the conversation, and you can get on to some content.
Couldn`t agree more with this. Nothing worse than a cycle of pretence
and illusion.
Daniel
Jonathon David White
"Nihongo wa jouzu desu ne."
else do you suggest they reply when you speak mangled Japanese?
Now, put yourself in their position. A Japanese trying to practice his
English on you, an unsuspecting foreigner. What are you going to say?
"Your English is horrible". And then you have to spend your time together
correcting his English? (it may also limit your chances of a future
relationship with this person). Or are you going to say, "Your English is
quite good (for a Japanese)" and then continue to have an interesting
conversation in Japanese. I prefer the second approach.
Incidently, So far only one person (from U of Tokyo Ph.D.) has given
an "honest answer":
"howaito-san no nihongo -- zenzen wakaranai"
Personally I prefer, "Nihongo wa jouzu desu ne!" (unless the person is
planning to help me improve my Japanese!)
Jya....
Michiaki Masuda
Rob wrote:
> When I first came to Japan and had all my expressions mixed up, and
> telling people "Ohayosumi nasai"--all I got was "Your Japanese is so
> good!". Was it? Not by a long shot. And when they use those SAME EXACT
> WORDS, never any variation, there is certainly no feeling of thankfulness
> when it's heard.
> It's all part of cultural stereotypes. If I was Chinese or Korean, that
> would not be said.
Actually, that _would_ be said if it's realized that they are not
native
Japanese speakers.
Talking about cultural stereotypes, how often do you initiate
conversation
in Japanese with a non-Japanese-looking person in Japan? How often do
you
initiate conversation in, say, English with a Japanese-looking person in
Japan? Have you never assumed that a Japanese-looking person sitting
at the next table in the restaurant would be more fluent in Japanese
than
English?
Here goes an unpleasant experience that I had last Friday:
I took Toyoko Line from Naka-Meguro to Toritsu-Daigaku last
Friday. Well, it was actually Saturday morning since the train left
Naka-Meguro around 12:30 AM (the last train but one). I was standing
close
to the first door of the first car. There were three white guys who
looked
like in their early to mid 20s. Soon, I realized that they were talking
in
English about how horney they were and how much they wished they could
have picked up some Japanese girls for the night. Their conversation
contained
a number of "F" words, one of which was used in the context of "f---ing
Japanese", if I may say. The train was pretty crowded (probably, half
of the
passangers were women), and they were talking loudly enough for many of
us
to hear. In fact, one of them yelled, "We want some! We want some!" as
if he
was making an announcement. I thought that they would stop soon, but
one guy
started to sing a song, which they claimed they sang during their trip
to
Chichi-jima Island. That wasn't exactlly an entertaining song whose
lyrics I'd
rather not discuss on the net. Finally, I stared at the singing guy.
He must have
realized that I was understanding all of their conversation and the
song. He
stopped singing, and the other guys lowered their voice. Would they
have done
the same thing on the crowded train in the US? I doubt it. Would they
have
done it in Japanese if they had been able to speak the language? I
doubt it.
Their conversation implied that they were from the US and had been in
Japan for a while. I understand that each country has her own share of
jerks. However, I was rather appalled to know that they, after staying
in Japan for
some period, made such a stereotyped assumption that not a soul on the
train
would understand English.
By the way, who were those three annoying guys anyway? Would anyone
have any idea who they might be? They were dressed pretty nicely and
got
off at Toritsu-Daigaku, a nice nighborhood that would not welcome
perverts
of that kind.
--Michiaki Masuda
Terry Traub
aa0...@giken.kobelco.co.jp (Stefan Kukula) writes:
>No, not at all. The correct response is to *deny* it. Humility is
>important. Just say _doumo_ and you'll make them think you're just another
>arrogant gai-jin. If you aren't sick of the phrase, the correct response
>is along the lines of _Ie, sonna koto.._ (you can probably omit the actual
>'dewa arimasen.')
Thank you for posting the correct information, for those of us who may
have been misled by the "doumo" suggestion.
>However, personally, after 3 and a half years, I'm truly sick of it, and
>while it may be a cultural thing, left over from the 'nihonjin-ron'-only
>the Japanese can learn Japanese, era, it certainly isn't a
>*multi*-cultural thing. I just say "Thank you very much, aren't I just!"
>Either that or tell them I have a lot of teachers.
>
>Stef
While living in Taiwan, though it was really quite charming in
retrospect, some of us did get a little tired of the same litany of
questions and comments that everyone seemed to use, beginning with
"Your mandarin is exceptionally good!" and ranging into what religion
you believe in, your weight and marital status, etc. So we began
singing a little ditty (to the tune of the 12 Days of Christmas);
translated, it goes something like this:
On my first day in Taiwan, a taxi driver asked me:
How long have you been in Taiwan?
On my second day in Taiwan, a taxi driver asked me:
How old are you?
How long have you been in Taiwan?
On my third day in Taiwan, a taxi driver asked me:
Are you married?
How old are you?
How long have you been in Taiwan?
(etc.)
It's not as funny in English.
Terry
--
Thank you for not smoking.
Jamie Packer (SGS Thomson)
> On my third day in Taiwan, a taxi driver asked me:
> Are you married?
> How old are you?
> How long have you been in Taiwan?
And have you noticed how the next question after answering yes to "Are you
married" is always "How many children have you got"? Never "Do you have any
children".
T.T. Gerritsen
eric...@Hawaii.Edu (Blaine Erickson) wrote:
>As for the meaning, well, it probably depends on the person. Based on
>the context, though, I'd say it means "you're a foreigner." Kind of
>an obvious thing to say--but isn't it also obvious to say "it's early"
>at 8:00 in the morning?
That's exactly the point, I think, just as in the "gaijin" question:
you're constantly being reminded of the fact that you're a foreigner,
which is NOT obvious at all, and makes the whole thing so irritating.
Imagine an African visiting Europe, and everyone saying "Hey black
man, your English is very good" (not in these very words of course)
wouldn't it be very annoying to him, to say the least, especially if
he's knowledgeable in European culture? No, this is usually considered
the worst sort of discriminating, colonial attitude. I'd say a culture
that uses this sort of utterance as a "set phrase" is in a very
deplorable state.
Tanno Gerritsen
T.Ger...@inter.nl.net
Blaine Erickson
Our story so far:
Japanese, like all languages, has interactional routines, some
absolutely fixed, some freer in form, but all predictable (to lesser
or greater degrees). I say that "Nihongo ojoozu desu ne" is one of
these, and that it, like other routines, is learned.
Daniel Hanrahan <hanr...@fat.coara.or.jp> pointed out that meeting a
foreigner is not an everyday activity for most people, and that the
wording of this phrase may vary. He concluded that it's not this
phrase that is learned, but what to do in awkward situations: give
compliments and utter banalities. Here are his words.
> What they learn , is not so much to say those words, or that
> exact particular phrase, but awkwardness at first meetings and
> to give compliments and say niceties to strangers. That`s what
> prompts them to say Nihongo o jouzu desu ne - even if it`s
> obviously untrue.
>
> In the meeting a foreigner situation Nihongo o jouzu desu ne is
> the most obvious compliment that comes to mind. But Japanese
> don`t always use those exact words. There are many other words
> used to express the same transparent flattery.
New stuff follows.
In response to this, I say that "Nihongo ojoozu desu ne" *or any of
its variants* still fit the pattern of an interactional routine,
because the content is predictable, even if the exact wording isn't.
If it's something that everyone says, then it's something that
everyone has learned.
> But I don`t think it applies to the Nihongo o jouzu desu ne
> situation. They don`t learn to say those particular words at
> that particular time. They just all experience the same emotion
> in that situation. The emotion prompts the false compliment.
I didn't explain the nature of interactional routines well. In
addition to routines with predetermined wording, there are also
routines with less predictability. For example, in a certain US urban
culture, there's a routine which starts with a taunt, and must be
answered with an insult. The exact words don't matter, but the
pattern is still there. What matters is not the exact wording, but
the predictability.
I'd also like to point out that there's nothing insincere about saying
"Nihongo ojoozu desu ne" to someone whose Japanese is less than
perfect. If a friend proudly shows off his new shirt, do you say
"your shirt is ugly"? (If you do, do you *have* any friends? ;-)
No--you say something nice. Sometimes, good manners require that we
say something that will make someone else feel comfortable, even if we
don't believe what we say. This is an important skill that too few
people have, IMHO.
> I might do a little survey of my Japanese students(I teach
> English and so it`ll help me kill some lesson time), my wife,
> her family and friends, and see if they can tell me why Japanese
> people say Nihongo o jouzu desu ne. Is it a set phrase - "a
> predetermined linguistic routine" like Good Morning etc, or is
> it a piece of flattery, or is it what they really think, or is
> it something else etc.
>
> (I hope they all answer truthfully....)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I don't think they're going to lie to you, but what they tell you and
what's actually going on may be two very different things. We've all
had the experience of being told that something we say "sounds funny."
What happens when we ask *why* it "sounds funny"? We may get an
answer, but sometimes it's no more than a fanciful "explanation" that
has nothing to do with why you can (or can't) say something. I leave
examples to the reader (hint: think about _wa_ versus _ga_, or _the_
versus _a/an_).
As for your survey, the way you ask the question, the wording you use,
etc. are all going to affect the answers you get. In doing research
on people, it's often best to prompt the behavior without asking for
it, or to distract the subject from the topic by asking about
something else. Good luck!
Blaine Erickson
eric...@hawaii.edu
Blaine Erickson
I wrote:
> This is why I think the right response [to "Nihongo ojoozu desu
> ne"] is _doomo_: it ends that part of the conversation, and you
> can get on to some content.
To which aa0...@giken.kobelco.co.jp (Stefan Kukula) inexplicably
responded:
> So after encouraging us foreigners not to get uppity about it,
> you encourage us to say something that will make the initial
> speaker think we're arrogant? If we're going to enter into this
> formal warm fuzzy feeling scenario, shouldn't we do it
> *properly*?
Excuse me, but what's improper about thanking someone when they
compliment you?
Yeah, I know, in Japanese culture, it's often appropriate to denigrate
one's own abilities, achievements, etc., but sometimes it's OK to
simply thank someone.
I also know that I said this was a kind of greeting, but it has the
*form* of a compliment.
If you prefer to have "conversations" that are endless iterations of
their compliments and your denials, please go right ahead. I'll just
stick to what my Japanese friends suggested I say when told "Nihongo
ojoozu desu ne."
Blaine Erickson
eric...@hawaii.edu
John Reeves
Norman Hosokawa wrote:
>
> In article <4nent4$j...@news.rrz.uni-koeln.de>,
> a269...@smail.rrz.uni-koeln.de wrote:
> > I just came back from a 1 1/2 months Japantrip and, according to this
> > thematic, Ive been reminded of a dialogue I had with a female
> > japanese English teacher. When I met her and she asked me if I could
> > speak Japanese, I was only able to reply "sukoshi da..."("sukoshi
> > dake", I intended to say) before she interrupted me with an
> > astonished "Nihongo wa jouzu desu ne". I did not know what to think
> > about people like her, not even listening to your full reply before
> > they "prompt" their standard sentence.
>
> small talk? It's not supposed to discuss topics, it's supposed to get to
> know each other (or at least to kill time). In a situation where I don't
> know anything about you I first of all have to be careful to avoid
> misteps/fautpas (Fettnaepfchen). So I will be thankful for every topic
> that keeps the conversation going and does'nt bear arbitrary contents.
> Guess how welcome it must be for a Japanese to hear you speak Japanese,
> that's another step in small talk! Rob's party situation is perfect here:
> Your partner wants to talk to you, he wants to keep conversation going,
> but there is not much to say, because you two have just met. And now you
> say "konnichiha". Your partner thinks "Great! I have something safe and
> nice to say: "Nihongo ha ojoozu desu ne."
whatever else it might be - ie bloody annoying - "Nihongo wa jouzu desu ne"
is "filler" for those awkward lulls in the conversation that can happen so
easily when one of the parties is less than fluent in the relevant language.
SO... the best way to avoid is to KEEP ON TALKING. Ask inane questions,
make inane observations, whatever it takes to find something that you
both CAN find interesting - just like you would in English. If you can
get through the first ten minutes without a lull then you're probably
safe, although there will always be some annoying individuals who will
blurt the phrase out the moment you open your mouth.
#
SO... can someone with a much better knowledge of Japanese culture than
me come up with a list of half a dozen "safe" topics (preferably totally
unrelated to the fact that this is a "Gaijin-Nihonjin encounter") and
ways to broach them?
#
I think what grates so much about this and similar phrases is that they
focus so much on the "foreign-ness" of one of the parties. Of course,
is is very easy to find parallels in English - "So, when are you going
back to Japan?" This COULD be an innocent question, but... Anyway, it
always amuses me to watch people squirm when my best friend (ethnically
Korean, but brought up in Sydney) responds to the inevitable "Where are you
from?" with "Kingsford [a suburb of Sydney]"
john
na...@nms.ac.jp
I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but the words,
"Nihongo wa jouzu desu ne", sound to me like; "only Nihongo
is good". (The other things? I don't know.). They may say
"Nihongo GA jouzu desu ne".
nando nakazawa@nippon med sch, tokyo
DeVore
I'm beginning to think that most gaijin begin to develope the disease
known by the Latin name of 'Humorous Ga Naious'. So what if people tell
you your Japanese is good. When I recently went back to the States and
could not tune out what people were saying, I found out that conversation
anywhere is usually equally inane. Deal with it! It's not such an awful
thing. Even if you can't stand it, just think of some **original** reply
in your head and say doumo. It won't kill you. There's much bigger
problems in the world, like how one can scrape up enough rent to continue
to enjoy one's shoebox :).
Richard
I'm always asked how long I intend to stay in Japan (especially at job
interviews, for obvious reasons). If I tell the truth, that I have no
plans to leave in the near future and would like to stay for another
couple of years at least, they always look baffled, rather as if someone
didn't know how long he was on vacation for. If I answer just "2 years",
it's an exact period of time and they seem satisfied with that. We seem
to be tolerated here on a limited time basis. Every gaijin has their
allotted amount of time in Japan, with some it may be a short time, with
others a long time, but fixed it must be.
Another story is of two students of mine (female, early forties) who
asked me if I had any Japanese friends (this is during a lesson). When I
replied that I did, they giggled and looked surprised. "Are they kind to
you?" one of them then asked. Humouring them, I replied, "Ah yes,
they're very kind," whereupon a fit of the giggles ensued again. I had
the impression that I must have found some exceptionally kind-hearted
Japanese people to be friends with in that they would even go as far as
to be kind to a gaijin.
It's this kind of attitude that makes me re-think my plans to stay in
Japan.
Linda Chance
na...@nms.ac.jp wrote:
: I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but the words,
: "Nihongo wa jouzu desu ne", sound to me like; "only Nihongo
: is good". (The other things? I don't know.). They may say
: "Nihongo GA jouzu desu ne".
I concur that people here are not quite getting the language down correctly.
In my experience, the most usual form of the phrase is "Nihongo ga
o-jouzu desu ne(e). In addition to the grammatical difference noted so
accurately by "nando", there is a semantic point to be noted. "O-jouzu"
is, formally speaking, the honorific "o" attached to "jouzu" skillful,
but in typical Japanese speech it does NOT mean "[You are] honarably
skillful." In fact, it is frequently used to quite the opposite effect.
Observe a teacher of small children, when the children are, for example,
making paintings. "O-jouzu desu nee!" is not applied to the truly
skillful drawings, but to the unskilled ones, so the child will continue
working. Genuinely skilled drawings will draw comments like "Yoku
dekimashita" or "Kirei desu yo."
Once I figured this out, I realized that "Nihongo ga _o_jouzu desu ne"
was not praise at all, merely recognition that I was attempting
Japanese. If someone REALLY wants to praise your use of the Japanese
language, they will find more complex and appropriate phrases with which
to do so. If they just say "O-jouzu desu ne" to me, I know I can pretty
well blow them off, since my Japanese language is not even a serious
subject for their consideration.
Thanks for listening.
Frank, from Linda's account
mdchachi
John Reeves wrote:
> whatever else it might be - ie bloody annoying - "Nihongo wa jouzu desu ne"
> is "filler" for those awkward lulls in the conversation that can happen so
> easily when one of the parties is less than fluent in the relevant language.
This may sometimes be so but I've seen it used even when less than a complete
sentence of Japanese has been said. Something along the lines of:
G: h-hajimemashite ...
J: waaa, nihongo wo jouzu desu ne!
> SO... the best way to avoid is to KEEP ON TALKING. Ask inane questions,
> make inane observations, whatever it takes to find something that you
> both CAN find interesting - just like you would in English. If you can
> get through the first ten minutes without a lull then you're probably
> safe, although there will always be some annoying individuals who will
> blurt the phrase out the moment you open your mouth.
Oops, I hadn't read this part. Those were the ones I was referring to.
> #
> SO... can someone with a much better knowledge of Japanese culture than
> me come up with a list of half a dozen "safe" topics (preferably totally
> unrelated to the fact that this is a "Gaijin-Nihonjin encounter") and
> ways to broach them?
> #
How about:
anata ha hibakusha no shinseki ga irimashita ka?
nihon de ha futouroudoukoui ga ooi desu ne.
Maybe not quite what you're looking for. :)
Mike
Terry Traub
eric...@Hawaii.Edu (Blaine Erickson) can't break out of his American mold:
>Excuse me, but what's improper about thanking someone when they
>compliment you?
>[blah blah blah]
>Blaine Erickson
>eric...@hawaii.edu
Well, is your Japanese truly excellent? Then you might possibly be
able to get away with a simply "thanks" when people give you the
formula compliment expecting your polite denial. However you will
most likely simply come off as another rude gaijin.
Japanese is a language that demands lifelong study; some
conversational fluency or accomplishment in memorizing characters is
not going to impress anyone. If you're a world class scholar of
Japanese, that's different; but in that case, one would hope you would
have achieved a more profound understanding of the culture and an
appropriate level of humility.
Just my 2 yen ;-)
Bill Franke
Richard (dobu...@twics.com) wrote:
: I'm always asked how long I intend to stay in Japan (especially at job
: interviews, for obvious reasons). If I tell the truth, that I have no
: plans to leave in the near future and would like to stay for another
: couple of years at least, they always look baffled, rather as if someone
: didn't know how long he was on vacation for. If I answer just "2 years",
: it's an exact period of time and they seem satisfied with that. We seem
: to be tolerated here on a limited time basis. Every gaijin has their
: allotted amount of time in Japan, with some it may be a short time, with
: others a long time, but fixed it must be.
I always used to say "Shinu made." :-) I'll be saying it again starting
in September.
Reuben Muns
lch...@mail2.sas.upenn.edu (Linda Chance) wrote:
> If someone REALLY wants to praise your use of the Japanese
>language, they will find more complex and appropriate phrases with which
>to do so.
One of my proudest moments was when a Japanese associate told me
I had no accent.
Reuben
Jeffrey Friedl
DeVore wrote:
> thing. Even if you can't stand it, just think of some **original** reply
> in your head and say doumo. It won't kill you. There's much bigger
I usually find a curt "sou desu ne" or perhaps an exhasperated "mou,
wakatta yo" to be quite the attention getter....
Jeffrey
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey Friedl <jfr...@omron.co.jp> Omron Corp, Nagaokakyo, Kyoto 617 Japan
See my Jap<->Eng dictionary at http://www.wg.omron.co.jp/cgi-bin/j-e
or at mirrors at [enterprise.ic.gc.ca] and [www.itc.omron.com]
Chuck Douglas
Reuben Muns (rm...@primenet.com) wrote:
The biggest compliment I got was from my host mother. Occassionally I would
get calls from my English-speaking friends. After going through the aisatsu
in Japanese and finding out who we were talking with, we would switch to
English to make the conversation go faster.
Several times, my host mother would say to me after I got off the phone
that she was suprised at how good my English was! She kept forgetting
that I didn't grow up speaking Japanese. I don't think that compliment
will ever be truly topped for me.
--
Chuck Douglas -- chuc...@prairienet.org
"I don't pretend I have all the answers/Just the obvious ones"
--_Backbone_ by Baby Animals
Homepage now available at: http://jaka.ece.uiuc.edu/~chuckers/
Norman Hosokawa
In article <3206B6...@extro.ucc.su.oz.au>, John Reeves
<jre...@extro.ucc.su.oz.au> wrote:
> whatever else it might be - ie bloody annoying - "Nihongo wa jouzu desu ne"
> is "filler" for those awkward lulls in the conversation that can happen so
> easily when one of the parties is less than fluent in the relevant language.
Exactly. Who gives a sh... about "language proficiency" and meaning of a
"filler phrase"?? We should be smart enough to think of "Nihongo wa jouzu
desu ne" as yet another form of greeting, just like
"ii otenki desu ne." on a sunny day
"odekake desu ka" when someone is leaving the house
"kodomosan o genki desu ka" for somebody with a newborn child
and just like all these foreigner versions
"nihon wa moo nagai desu ka"
"nihon wa doo desu ka"
"o kuni wa doko desu ka"
"nihongo wa muzukashii desu ka"
"nihonshoku daijoobu desu ka"
"ohashi wa ojoozu desu ne" etc. etc.,
just simple, nice, flat greeting like "hello", "nothing less and nothing more.
> SO... the best way to avoid is to KEEP ON TALKING.
and especially to not overreact.
"(ha ha ha) maa, sore hodo ..." for example
> Ask inane questions,
> make inane observations, whatever it takes to find something that you
> both CAN find interesting - just like you would in English. If you can
> get through the first ten minutes without a lull then you're probably
> safe, although there will always be some annoying individuals who will
> blurt the phrase out the moment you open your mouth.
>
> #
> SO... can someone with a much better knowledge of Japanese culture than
> me come up with a list of half a dozen "safe" topics (preferably totally
> unrelated to the fact that this is a "Gaijin-Nihonjin encounter") and
> ways to broach them?
from 「ビジネス接待術」塗師巌（ぬりし・いわお）
２盛り上げ方の工夫
もてなしの場での話題
キ 気候・季節 「毎日暑くて…」
ド 道楽・趣味 「趣味は…。…さんは…いかがですか」
ニ ニュース 「今日の夕刊によると、…」
タ 旅 「この間、…に行って来ました。」
チ 知人・友人 「変わった友人が今してねぇ。」
カ 家族・家庭 「子供が子猫を拾ってきました。それが…」
ケ 健康・身体 「私は足裏健康法を実践しています。」
サ サスペンス 「近所の家で自殺がありました。」
セ セックス・異性 「最近、新宿の歌舞伎町は変わりましたね。」
シ 仕事 「この業界で新しい傾向が出始めました。何だと思いますか。」
イ 衣服 「すてきなネクタイですね。」
食 食 「この煮物の野菜、何でしょうか。」
住 住まい 「お住まいはどちらですか。」
The funny thing is, if you're looking for a smooth and interesting
conversation for both of you, it might be very smart to mix in some stuff
about foreign countries, foreigners and differences in taste or perception
(even if it might smell like stereotypes), because it's probably odd for
your partner to talk with a foreigner only about Japan and in Japanese
terms. That's nothing interesting or new.
Norman
Jim Weisser
> I'm always asked how long I intend to stay in Japan (especially at job
> interviews, for obvious reasons). If I tell the truth, that I have no
> plans to leave in the near future and would like to stay for another
> couple of years at least, they always look baffled, rather as if someone
> didn't know how long he was on vacation for. If I answer just "2 years",
> it's an exact period of time and they seem satisfied with that. We seem
> to be tolerated here on a limited time basis. Every gaijin has their
> allotted amount of time in Japan, with some it may be a short time, with
> others a long time, but fixed it must be.
I think this is more a fixture of the people searching for jobs--most
folks don't plan to spend forever here, if they're foreigners. A friend of
mine mentioned that he was looking to spend around 5 years or so and that
surprised folks too...2 years or 3 years seems to be a fairly popular
answer....
> Another story is of two students of mine (female, early forties) who
> asked me if I had any Japanese friends (this is during a lesson). When I
> replied that I did, they giggled and looked surprised. "Are they kind to
> you?" one of them then asked. Humouring them, I replied, "Ah yes,
> they're very kind," whereupon a fit of the giggles ensued again. I had
> the impression that I must have found some exceptionally kind-hearted
> Japanese people to be friends with in that they would even go as far as
> to be kind to a gaijin.
Hardly. I've had people I've never met before give me rides places b/c I
looked lost. My guess would be that these folks don't know how to take a
compliment...
When I first arrived in Japan, the majority of my friends were foreigners,
along with a few Japanese who speak English. Now, having lived here for
three years, I find that many of my friends don't speak any English at
all...interesting how things change...
-snip-
--
Jim "Bud" Weisser, Jim...@jp.psi.net
I speak only for myself and not for PSINet.
PSINet Japan -- Tel: 81-3-5574-7171 Fax: 81-3-5574-7173
Providing Internet access in over 300 places throughout the world.
http://www.psi.com/
Jeffrey Friedl
Chuck Douglas wrote:
> Several times, my host mother would say to me after I got off the phone
> that she was suprised at how good my English was! She kept forgetting
> that I didn't grow up speaking Japanese. I don't think that compliment
> will ever be truly topped for me.
There's a family I met when I first came to Japan seven years ago, and I
continue to visit them about once a year. They have two kids that were 5
and 7 at the time. At the time, I didn't speak any Japanese, so of course
the kids thought I was an idiot. Now that I can get by, they probably think
I'm still an idiot, but somewhat less of one. Anyway, once I had the
occation to speak English when they were around, and their mom later told
me that Hana-chan had commented that wow, ``Jeffrey's English was pretty good,
huh?'' Cute!
On a different note, I love it when Japanese say that English is difficult,
for it allows me to come back with ``iie, zenzen. hora, amerika deha kodomo
demo dekiru yo'' ("No, not at all! Heck, in America, even kids can speak it").
Some of the reactions are absolutely priceless.
Jeffrey
Jamie Packer (SGS Thomson)
In article <320738...@twics.com>, Richard <dobu...@twics.com> wrote:
> I'm always asked how long I intend to stay in Japan (especially at job
> interviews, for obvious reasons). If I tell the truth, that I have no
> plans to leave in the near future and would like to stay for another
> couple of years at least, they always look baffled, rather as if someone
> didn't know how long he was on vacation for.
Or it could be that they find this contradictory - i.e. they think 2 years
*is* the near future. We had one excellent job applicant who thought he was
making a committment by saying he would stay in the job for at least 5 years.
My manager refused to employ someone who took such a short term view.
Although this isn't a universal attitude as Jim "Bud" Weisser points out.
As we are getting off the original subject, I would just like to say that, as
far as I can remember, no one has ever complimented me on my Japanese :-(
(Although, after a long conversation with a taxi driver about why I was getting
the taxi instead of taking the bus he paused and then asked me *in English*
if I spoke Japanese... But we could start a whole new thread on taxi driver
stories!)
jamie
and I suppose I should point out that my Japanese is so bad that no one is
ever going to compliment me on it...
Bill Franke
: I am from Utah. And with the inevitability of gravity, the response to
: 'I'm from Utah' is 'Are you a Mormon?". No one is going to tell me that
: somehow people are taught to ask me what my religion is in response to
: being told I am from a geographic region. No one would dream of responding
: to "I'm from Egypt" with "Are you a Muslim?".
The Japanese in general seem as fond of cultural stereotyping as the rest
of the world. All my Japanese acquaintances automatically assumed that
because I was an American that I was also a Christian. They seem to go
together just like love and marriage do and Utah and Mormon do.
Not being from Egypt, I'm not sure how the Japanese in general react on
that level with people from Egypt. Dollars to donuts, however, that the
standard assumption is just what you would not dream of hearing anyone
respond: "From Cairo? Must be a Muslim." After all, don't we here in the
USA knee-jerk react the same way whenever there's a pipe bomb or a plane
crash somewhere? "Explosion ---> terrorism ---> Middle-eastern
(Palestinian, Iranian, Libyan, Syrian) militant Muslim bomber" is the
standard American equation, from the guys down at the local bar to those
in the highest reaches of media ether.
: language skill falls in the catagory of 'things we both know about or
: could talk about.' Remember that *they* haven't heard this same
: conversational opener a hundred times - it is their *first* time. They
: probably don't realize that you hear it over and over, and could scream
: for hearing it again.
Just as the standard opening lines between gaijin in Tokyo seem to be
questions about what one is doing there ("Do you teach English or do you
have a "real" job?), how long one has been there, and where in world
outside Japan one is from. Some of my gaijin friends in Tokyo are just as
exasperated by these equally hackneyed interrogatories from other gaijin
as by the "[Naninani] jouzu, desu ne!" type of comments. Then, too, there
are the obnoxious fellow countrymen who assume that just because one is
also one of "us," that one shares all "our" standard cultural assumptions
about "our" superiority and "their" inferiority, as well as "our" (often
twisted nationalistic, ethnocentric political, social, cultural, and
economic) values.
I suppose bitching about how many times one hears these stock phrases from
"them" isn't much different from my bitching to myself about how many
times my father tells me the same story about what he did whenever --
which he invariably does whenever I go visit him or speak to him on the
phone. I know he's not the only guy in the world who tells the same
stories over and over again to the same people. I wouldn't dream of
responding to him the way some of the posters here have suggested
responding to all those "thems" with their "Jouzu, desu ne"'s.
Sometimes I think that people who so easily take offense at the typical
behaviors of other peoples are also people who are probably offended that
when they walk in the rain they get wet and when other people go to the
toilet, they probably make nasty, uncivilized noises and often leave
behind equally uncivilized odors as testament to their having been there.
**************************************************************************
"Your existence offends me as much as your behavior. Neither one is mine
and so I have no control over them. That is what offends me most deeply:
I have no control over them." Fennec A. Churl, 1996
**************************************************************************
Snowhare
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In article <DvHBD...@news.hawaii.edu>,
Blaine Erickson <eric...@Hawaii.Edu> wrote:
>[Today's topic: Japanese people are quick to blurt out "Nihongo ojoozu
>desu ne" whenever a foreigner speaks any Japanese, regardless of
>fluency]
>
>An important part of language use is what we might call "set phrases"
>(or to use the technical term, "interactional routines"). We all
>learn them; they're things like "knock knock--who's there," "How are
>you?--Fine, thanks," and what-not. These can run the range from
>absolutely fixed wording with virtually no content to relatively free
>wording and variable content, but the idea is the same: that they're
>part of a predetermined linguistic routine.
>
>Japanese (more accurately, Japanese culture) has a lot of these set
>phrases. What matters most is not their content but their context.
>You say _ohayoo gozaimasu_ at the start of the morning, or at the
>start of work--even if work starts at night. You say _hajimemashite_
>when you meet someone for the first time. And, if you're Japanese,
>you say _Nihongo ojoozu desu ne_ when you first hear a foreigner speak
>Japanese.
Not having direct experience with this (although I remember a very odd
interaction here where someone told a female Japanese that her Japanese
was very good, to general amusement all around), I can't say how it is
being used in Japan for sure - but I do have parallel experience with such
a 'comment you could strangle people over' from my own background that
seems identical.
I am from Utah. And with the inevitability of gravity, the response to
'I'm from Utah' is 'Are you a Mormon?". No one is going to tell me that
somehow people are taught to ask me what my religion is in response to
being told I am from a geographic region. No one would dream of responding
to "I'm from Egypt" with "Are you a Muslim?". It is a cultural stereotype
leaking into conversation - and actually a somewhat offensive leak at
that. 'Nihongo ga ojyouzo desu ne' seems to be in the same catagory in
some degree. The sense I am getting from people here is that it is
sometimes being used with this intent: "Nihongo ga ojyouzo desu ne?!
(Masaka!)". This is a clear cultural stereotype leak.
That said - it also seems to be to me to *also* sometimes an attempt at
conversation opener - it provides a hook for *further* conversation from
that common point: "Nihongo ga ojyouzo desu ne?! (Kyoumifukai!)". It is
like 'Ii, o-tenki desu ne?' in that sense. When talking to people,
everyone tries to find *anything* common they can talk about. Your
language skill falls in the catagory of 'things we both know about or
could talk about.' Remember that *they* haven't heard this same
conversational opener a hundred times - it is their *first* time. They
probably don't realize that you hear it over and over, and could scream
for hearing it again.
Benjamin Franz
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Daniel L. Sosnoski
Stefan Kukula,aa0...@giken.kobelco.co.jp,Internet writes:
> No, not at all. The correct response is to *deny* it. Humility is
> important. Just say _doumo_ and you'll make them think you're just another
> arrogant gai-jin. If you aren't sick of the phrase, the correct response
> is along the lines of _Ie, sonna koto.._ (you can probably omit the actual
'> dewa arimasen.')
This is definitely one of those things you either learn to live with (and see
the humor in) or suffer until leaving Japan, and not unlike the whole
"gaijin" brouhaha.
Stefan is right on target here. The response I've found most effective is:
Nihonjin: Waaaah! Nihongo ga joooooouzu desu ne....
Myself: Ii-e.
The prounciation of "iie" here is almost impossible to transcribe, but sounds
something like you're saying under your breath "oh, no no no not at all..."
and should take a good 2 or 3 seconds as you drag it out.
Say this properly and you won't hear the remark directed to you again by
anyone in earshot.
And I agree with the other poster who points out the "gaijin humorous ga
naius" problem here. Save your rage and fury for the fudosan who refuse to
rent an apartment to you.
Regards,
DLS
The 2-Belo
The 2-Belo wrote:
>
> Norman Hosokawa wrote:
> >
> > In article <4nent4$j...@news.rrz.uni-koeln.de>,
> > a269...@smail.rrz.uni-koeln.de wrote:
> > > I just came back from a 1 1/2 months Japantrip and, according to this
> > > thematic, Ive been reminded of a dialogue I had with a female
> > > japanese English teacher. When I met her and she asked me if I could
> > > speak Japanese, I was only able to reply "sukoshi da..."("sukoshi
> > > dake", I intended to say) before she interrupted me with an
> > > astonished "Nihongo wa jouzu desu ne". I did not know what to think
> > > about people like her, not even listening to your full reply before
> > > they "prompt" their standard sentence.
> >
> > You're judging too fast. We're talking about small talk here. What is
> > small talk? It's not supposed to discuss topics, it's supposed to get to
> > know each other (or at least to kill time). In a situation where I don't
> > know anything about you I first of all have to be careful to avoid
> > misteps/fautpas (Fettnaepfchen). So I will be thankful for every topic
> > that keeps the conversation going and does'nt bear arbitrary contents.
> > Guess how welcome it must be for a Japanese to hear you speak Japanese,
> > that's another step in small talk! Rob's party situation is perfect here:
> > Your partner wants to talk to you, he wants to keep conversation going,
> > but there is not much to say, because you two have just met. And now you
> > say "konnichiha". Your partner thinks "Great! I have something safe and
> > nice to say: "Nihongo ha ojoozu desu ne."
>
> TEME---ORRA ORRRA ORRRA ORRA" and then get on your bike with the
> headlight sticking a meter up in the air and velvet seats and 15 horns
> that play the theme from "The Godfather," and weave in and out of
> traffic at 3 km/h going "BWAA BABABABA BWAAA BABABABA" on the throttle.
> Then they'll never say that to a foreigner again.
oh yeah, I forgot, I speak Gifu-ben, so that makes everything even more
difficult.
Deeerra muzukashikunaru ge----!
Norman Hosokawa
In article <4ubgfg$g...@news.sphere.ad.jp>, The 2-Belo
<whog...@fat.rat's.ass> wrote:
> > > nice to say: "Nihongo ha ojoozu desu ne."
> >
> > Then, just squat down on the ground and say "ZZZAKEN JA NE-- YO,
> > TEME---ORRA ORRRA ORRRA ORRA" and then get on your bike with the
> > headlight sticking a meter up in the air and velvet seats and 15 horns
> > that play the theme from "The Godfather," and weave in and out of
> > traffic at 3 km/h going "BWAA BABABABA BWAAA BABABABA" on the throttle.
> > Then they'll never say that to a foreigner again.
>
>
> oh yeah, I forgot, I speak Gifu-ben, so that makes everything even more
> difficult.
> Deeerra muzukashikunaru ge----!
You would do everybody a favor, if you explained yourself a little better.
And what's your name, anyway?
The 2-Belo
"Shounen Jump" and wrote:
>
> > > > nice to say: "Nihongo ha ojoozu desu ne."
> > >
> > > Then, just squat down on the ground and say "ZZZAKEN JA NE-- YO,
> > > TEME---ORRA ORRRA ORRRA ORRA" and then get on your bike with the
> > > headlight sticking a meter up in the air and velvet seats and 15 horns
> > > that play the theme from "The Godfather," and weave in and out of
> > > traffic at 3 km/h going "BWAA BABABABA BWAAA BABABABA" on the throttle.
> > > Then they'll never say that to a foreigner again.
> >
> >
> > oh yeah, I forgot, I speak Gifu-ben, so that makes everything even more
> > difficult.
> > Deeerra muzukashikunaru ge----!
>
> You would do everybody a favor, if you explained yourself a little better.
> And what's your name, anyway?
I'm supposed to explain myself?
Love,
THE 2
"If you don't like it here, go home."
John Reeves
Norman Hosokawa wrote:
[will this still come out in kana and kanzi when i quote it?]
> from 「ビジネス接待術」塗師巌（ぬりし・いわお）
>
> ２盛り上げ方の工夫
> もてなしの場での話題
>
> キ 気候・季節 「毎日暑くて…」
>
> ド 道楽・趣味 「趣味は…。…さんは…いかがですか」
>
> ニ ニュース 「今日の夕刊によると、…」
>
> タ 旅 「この間、…に行って来ました。」
>
> チ 知人・友人 「変わった友人が今してねぇ。」
>
> カ 家族・家庭 「子供が子猫を拾ってきました。それが…」
>
> ケ 健康・身体 「私は足裏健康法を実践しています。」
>
> サ サスペンス 「近所の家で自殺がありました。」
>
> セ セックス・異性 「最近、新宿の歌舞伎町は変わりましたね。」
>
> シ 仕事 「この業界で新しい傾向が出始めました。何だと思いますか。」
>
> イ 衣服 「すてきなネクタイですね。」
>
> 食 食 「この煮物の野菜、何でしょうか。」
>
> 住 住まい 「お住まいはどちらですか。」
thanks, this is the kind of thing I was looking for - I tend to rely far to
much on chit-chat about work or study. Most of the people I meet are under
twenty-five and these might be rather limited, but it's when I talk to older
people that I'm stumped for something to say, so thanks again.
> The funny thing is, if you're looking for a smooth and interesting
> conversation for both of you, it might be very smart to mix in some stuff
> about foreign countries, foreigners and differences in taste or perception
> (even if it might smell like stereotypes), because it's probably odd for
> your partner to talk with a foreigner only about Japan and in Japanese
> terms. That's nothing interesting or new.
Yeah, it's quite natural. I also find it a bit tedious when a conversation
consists of nothing but a list of comparisons between Australia and Japan.
Of course, there's no point complaining about it, the thing to do is to
try and steer the conversation in more interesting directions. Almost
everyone will respond positively.
john
The 2-Belo
Norman Hosokawa wrote:
>
> In article <4nent4$j...@news.rrz.uni-koeln.de>,
> a269...@smail.rrz.uni-koeln.de wrote:
> > I just came back from a 1 1/2 months Japantrip and, according to this
> > thematic, Ive been reminded of a dialogue I had with a female
> > japanese English teacher. When I met her and she asked me if I could
> > speak Japanese, I was only able to reply "sukoshi da..."("sukoshi
> > dake", I intended to say) before she interrupted me with an
> > astonished "Nihongo wa jouzu desu ne". I did not know what to think
> > about people like her, not even listening to your full reply before
> > they "prompt" their standard sentence.
>
> You're judging too fast. We're talking about small talk here. What is
> small talk? It's not supposed to discuss topics, it's supposed to get to
> know each other (or at least to kill time). In a situation where I don't
> know anything about you I first of all have to be careful to avoid
> misteps/fautpas (Fettnaepfchen). So I will be thankful for every topic
> that keeps the conversation going and does'nt bear arbitrary contents.
> Guess how welcome it must be for a Japanese to hear you speak Japanese,
> that's another step in small talk! Rob's party situation is perfect here:
> Your partner wants to talk to you, he wants to keep conversation going,
> but there is not much to say, because you two have just met. And now you
> say "konnichiha". Your partner thinks "Great! I have something safe and
JT
I
> >As for the meaning, well, it probably depends on the
person. Based on
> >the context, though, I'd say it means "you're a foreigner."
Kind of
> >an obvious thing to say--but isn't it also obvious to say
"it's early"
> >at 8:00 in the morning?
>
> That's exactly the point, I think, just as in the "gaijin"
question:
> you're constantly being reminded of the fact that you're a
foreigner,
> which is NOT obvious at all, and makes the whole thing so
irritating.
> Imagine an African visiting Europe, and everyone saying "Hey
black
> man, your English is very good" (not in these very words of
course)
> wouldn't it be very annoying to him, to say the least,
especially if
> he's knowledgeable in European culture? No, this is usually
considered
> the worst sort of discriminating, colonial attitude. I'd say
a culture
> that uses this sort of utterance as a "set phrase" is in a
very
> deplorable state.
>
>
> Obviously, you don`t live in Japan or you do live in Japan
and need a LONG vacation.
Personally I can`t understand what this whole thread is
about. I hear Nihongo wa jouzu desu ne all the time. What
the fuck is the big deal? Just say thank you and get on with
it. If this sort of thing really bothers you, perhaps its
time to go home.
The 2-Belo
> > he's knowledgeable in European culture? No, this is usually
> considered
> > the worst sort of discriminating, colonial attitude. I'd say
> a culture
> > that uses this sort of utterance as a "set phrase" is in a
> very
> > deplorable state.
> >
> >
> > Obviously, you don`t live in Japan or you do live in Japan
> and need a LONG vacation.
>
> Personally I can`t understand what this whole thread is
> about. I hear Nihongo wa jouzu desu ne all the time. What
> the fuck is the big deal? Just say thank you and get on with
> it. If this sort of thing really bothers you, perhaps its
> time to go home.
JT, you are the coolest.
THE 2
Dwayne Fujima
In article <JAMIE.96A...@sgs-t-5.dtc.hp.com>,
ja...@dtc.hp.com (Jamie Packer (SGS Thomson)) wrote:
>and I suppose I should point out that my Japanese is so bad that no one is
>ever going to compliment me on it...
But have you ever had any Japanese tell you that your Japanese is bad?
I've only had that depressing situation happen once to me, not by a
Japanese, but by some Taiwanese secretaries that were working for a
Japanese company. Ironically while I don't have that much trouble
listening to Japanese I found their Japanese to be very difficult to
understand :-)
Dwayne Fujima tot...@gol.com
Jamie Packer (SGS Thomson)
> >and I suppose I should point out that my Japanese is so bad that no one is
> >ever going to compliment me on it...
>
> But have you ever had any Japanese tell you that your Japanese is bad?
No... but there was the time I wrote a letter to some friends in Japan, and
later they said "your Japanese was very good ... but we didn't understand what
you were trying to say"!
jamie
... maybe I should change my name to james joyce ...
Daniel Hanrahan
The 2-Belo wrote:
>
> Then, just squat down on the ground and say "ZZZAKEN JA NE-- YO,
> TEME---ORRA ORRRA ORRRA ORRA" and then get on your bike with the
> headlight sticking a meter up in the air and velvet seats and 15 horns
> that play the theme from "The Godfather," and weave in and out of
> traffic at 3 km/h going "BWAA BABABABA BWAAA BABABABA" on the throttle.
> Then they'll never say that to a foreigner again.
"ZZZAKEN JA NE-- YO, TEME---ORRA ORRRA ORRRA ORRA"
Excellent idea. Picturing this scene had me in stitches. Somebody try
saying this phrase and see how many people reply Nihongo jouzu desu ne.
It`d be great at the bank or post office.
I would try it except that I don`t want to.
R. Bloemeke
In article <whitejd-0508...@202.230.44.173>,
whi...@net.ksp.or.jp (Jonathon David White) wrote:
> Now, put yourself in their position. A Japanese trying to practice his
> English on you, an unsuspecting foreigner. What are you going to say?
> "Your English is horrible". And then you have to spend your time together
> correcting his English? (it may also limit your chances of a future
> relationship with this person). Or are you going to say, "Your English is
> quite good (for a Japanese)" and then continue to have an interesting
> conversation in Japanese. I prefer the second approach.
I always tell the "Japanese trying to practice his English on me" that
it's rude and patronizing to do so and to stop it right NOW. Either that
or I just ignore him. True, it does limit my chances of a future
relationship with the person, but it's probably no big loss. With all the
millions in this country, there are plenty who have no interest in English
and are perfectly happy to converse from the start in their native
Japanese. Mostly these are older people who have more interesting things
to say anyway, but not always.
Robert
T.T. Gerritsen
nor...@fukushima-cw.ac.jp (Norman Hosokawa) wrote:
[snip]
>But as you see, there is no actual need to interact with foreigners,
>except for English learning, trade and technology. I think that's why most
>efforts to become international end up in these three fields, in
>particular in trade: the most internationalized mind is to be seen in
>terms of SELLING and CONSUMING things.
> NORMAN
>-------------------------------OPINIONS, PLEASE--------------------------------
Do you want an opinion? Here is one: what you say about
internationalization being needed only in the fields of technology,
learning and, above all, in trade is exactly what many people find so
irritating about the Japanese: a lack of genuine appreciation of other
countries, cultures and languages. I consider myself a pretty
internationalized mind and I live in a country famous for its trade
(Holland) but I don't give a **** about SELLING and CONSUMING (your
capitalization) in this respect. An internationalized mind is a matter
of realizing that your people is not the only one in the world, or the
best, but that each people and country has its own genius and its
limitations.
Tanno Gerritsen
T.Ger...@inter.nl.net
T.T. Gerritsen
whi...@net.ksp.or.jp (Jonathon David White) wrote:
>"Nihongo wa jouzu desu ne."
> So, what is wrong with a nice compliment? So we hear it alot. What
>else do you suggest they reply when you speak mangled Japanese?
> Now, put yourself in their position. A Japanese trying to practice his
>English on you, an unsuspecting foreigner. What are you going to say?
>"Your English is horrible". And then you have to spend your time together
>correcting his English? (it may also limit your chances of a future
>relationship with this person). Or are you going to say, "Your English is
>quite good (for a Japanese)" and then continue to have an interesting
>conversation in Japanese. I prefer the second approach.
There's also a third approach: not saying anything about the other
person's language abilities in the first place. If someone's English
is really bad, don't say anything about it, and if the other person
explicitly asks, be honest but gentle. That's the approach I prefer:
not speaking the truth, without lying.
Tanno Gerritsen
T.Ger...@inter.nl.net
Terry Traub
bloe...@gol.com (R. Bloemeke) writes:
>I always tell the "Japanese trying to practice his English on me" that
>it's rude and patronizing to do so and to stop it right NOW. Either that
>or I just ignore him. True, it does limit my chances of a future
>...
Wow. Can you elaborate--e.g., what word do you use for "patronizing"
here? And why not use the time honored approach of pretending to be
Swedish or something?
The 2-Belo
Already did -- to people my age, that is -- and I became the life of the
party (I did it as a joke, of course)...now all I need is a Cima slammed
all the way down to the ground and some fur and some purple neon, and
I'll be the world's first foreigner Yankii.
NANI MITORRRRRUN JA!!!! KORAAAA!!!!!!
--
THE _----_
/ || ________________________________
|| | WREAK HAVOC ON THE PROGRAMMERS!|
// | LONG LIVE THE UNDERGROUND |
// ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
// - BELO
//
// supporting Mad Mike and
||______ UNDERGROUND RESISTANCE
^^^^^^^^
Satoshi
eric...@Hawaii.Edu (Blaine Erickson) wrote,
>In a time when giants ruled the earth, m97...@seinan-gu.ac.jp (Rob)
>wrote:
>> But it's a great example of GROUPTHINK. And you hear it 100 times
>> a day, regardless of your ability. That's why it gets so grating
>> on the nerves. When I first came to Japan and had all my
>> expressions mixed up, and telling people "Ohayosumi nasai"--all
>> I got was "Your Japanese is so good!". Was it? Not by a long
>> shot. And when they use those SAME EXACT WORDS, never any
>> variation, there is certainly no feeling of thankfulness when
>> it's heard.
"Ohayosumi nasai" is a very good colloquial Japanese.
Japanese people don't expect such phrases from a beginner's lips.
"Ohakonbanchiwa!"
is a famous phrase in the anime called "Dr.Slump/Arare chan".
Rob used such splendid Japanese. I'm not surprised by
their reaction when they heard "Ohayosumi nasai".
Nihon no katasumi kara Ohakonbanchiwa!
Baicha baicha.
Satoshi
Satoshi
Maa, nagai kedo, tsukiatte ya.
"Nihongo jouzu"? Betsu ni iijan. Nan demo waruku toru na yo.
Mukashi ha nihongo wo benkyou suru gaikokujin nan te
hotondo inakattan dakara. Tsumaru tokoro ha, "Nihongo wo
benkyou shite kurete arigatou." "Nihongo ni chotto demo kyoumi wo
motte kurete arigatou." tte itteru no sa.
Sore to, "Wa! Gaikoku no hito da. Doushiyou. Eigo hanasanakya."
tte migamaeteru tokoro ni nihongo de hanasarereba, bikkuri suru tte
koto mo aruwana. Anone, nihon de eigo tsukau tte koto ha,
mawari no nihonjin tachi ni eigo ryoku wo satei sarerutte koto na no.
(Tsuukou nin kara demo.) Dakara, gaikoku no hito ga chikaku ni kitara,
ochitsuite ha irarenai. Atama n naka ha mae motte kangaeta
eigo de ippai ni natten da. Soko ni nihongo de hanasare tan ja,
noumiso hikkuri kaeru wai.
Sore ha sou to, "Nihongo jouzu.." unnun ni iroiro kirikaeshite mitara?
Nan de sou iwareru no ka ha, itta hito ni kiite miru no ga
ichiban da to omoimasu.
"Nihongo ga (o)jouzu desu ne."
to iwaretara, chotto kenson shite,
If a person says "Nihongo ga jouzu..." to you, show a little bit
humility and say,
"Iie, sonna koto ha(wa) arimasen yo."
"Iie, mada narai tate desu yo./ hon no sukoshi kajitta dake desu yo."
"Arigatou, demo mada mada nan desu yo. Rikai dekinai ten mo ooishi,
iitai koto wo zenbu ieru wake ja nain desu. Kono mae mo ne,(such and
such things occurred)"
"Sou desu ka? Kekkou benkyou shita tsumori nan desu ga, mada juubun ja
nain desu."
"Sou osshatte kudasaru no ha(wa) ureshii no desu ga,
jibun de ha(wa) mada mada benkyou shinakute ha(wa) to omotte orimasu."
nado ha ikaga? Hum, kore dake ieba, 2 do 3 do no "Iyaa, honto ni
nihongo umai desu nee." no renpatsu ni taeru hitsuyou ga detekuru
darou na.
"Jouzu" to iwareru riyuu wo kikitai no dattara,
If you want to ask them why they say "jouzu",
"Arigatou(gozaimasu). Demo, (watashi no nihongo no) douiu tokoro ga?"
"Arigatou(-). Toku ni donna ten ga? akusento? intoneeshon?"
"Sore ha doumo arigatou gozaimasu. Desu ga, sou ossharu riyuu wo
okikase negaemasen (deshou) ka? Jibun de ha(wa) mada fujuubun dato
omotte iru no desu ga."
"Arigatou/Doumo. Demo nande? Doko ga jouzu?
Umai to shitara, dono teido? Gaikokujin ni shite ha(wa)?"
I don't recommend these:
"Arigatou. Minna ni sou iwaremasu./ Minna sou iun de,
komacchaun dayo ne."
"Touzen!"
"Maa ne."
"Atariki yo! Kochitora (hisshi koi te) benkyou shitan da ze!"
"Sorya sou da."
If you can't stand it anymore, (but I don't recommend these, either):
"Urusai!"
"Hottoke!"
"Aa yan nacchimau! Au hito au hito, onnaji koto bakkari ii yagaru!
Ojouzu demo o-heta-kuso demo nan demo ii kara, hayaku hondai ni
haitte kure!"
"Chitto ha(wa) chigau koto ien no kai na!"
"Anodesu ne, kono teido no kaiwa ha(wa) watakushi ni
torimashite ha(wa) shoho no shoho no asameshi mae,
ochaduke sarasara oshinko poripori no brekku faasuto yori
zutto mae na wake de, ichiichi odoroite moraccha
meiwaku nano de gozaimasu kere domo, aete sochirasama ga
sono you ni ossharu node areba, ee, wakatte imasu tomo,
tannaru aisatsu gawari nano de gozaimashou,
sore ga home kotoba da to iu koto mo juujuu shouchi itashite orimasu,
shikashi nagara, watakushi no tachiba to itashimashite ha(wa),
sono kotoba ga 365(sanbyaku roku juu go) nichi uruudoshi de
366(sanbyaku roku juu roku) nichi kuruhi mo kuruhi mo
mimi ni tako ga dekiru hodo kikasare, awaya ikaiyou ka to iu hodo no
nayami no tane nano de gozaimasu yo. Aa, kono kyouchuu,
sasshite itadake masu deshou ka!?"
Un, kono kurai makushitaterarereba, joudeki da.
Demo, donna reaction ga kuru ka hoshou ha shinai yo.
Satoshi
muchan
I read this post of Satoshi (QYE8...@pcvan.or.jp)
> Subject: Re: "Nihongo wa jouzu desu ne." (Was Re: keigo)
> Date: 12 Aug 1996 09:40:33 GMT
> From: QYE8...@pcvan.or.jp (Satoshi)
> Organization: PC-VAN, japan
> Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan, fj.life.in-japan
> References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6
and very interested in the newsgroup fj.life.in-japan, where this
discussion
should be followed up... but my newsserver "news.eunet.si" gets nothing
of
fj. hierarchy... If someone could suggest me news site in Europe where
these
fj. groups are available,... may be in Amsterdam?
muchan
Helina O Ylisirnio
Jamie Packer (SGS Thomson) (ja...@dtc.hp.com) wrote:
: jamie
: and I suppose I should point out that my Japanese is so bad that no one is
: ever going to compliment me on it...
Wasn't it some scholar who said that the BETTER you speak Japanese, the
less you get comments on it, ergo, if you get a lot of comments like
"joozu desu ne" it means your Japanese is lousy!
Richard
Helina O Ylisirnio wrote:
> : jamie
>
> : and I suppose I should point out that my Japanese is so bad that no one is
> : ever going to compliment me on it...
> Wasn't it some scholar who said that the BETTER you speak Japanese, the
> less you get comments on it, ergo, if you get a lot of comments like
> "joozu desu ne" it means your Japanese is lousy!
But I've heard of many people who were BORN in Japan and went to
Japanese schools, therefore speaking the language like a native being
told "Nihongo ga o-jouzu desu ne" because they are recognisable as not
being racially Japanese. As you may expect, it really DOES cheese them
off.
stranger in a strange land
On Tue, 6 Aug 1996, Richard wrote:
> Another story is of two students of mine (female, early forties) who
> asked me if I had any Japanese friends (this is during a lesson). When I
> replied that I did, they giggled and looked surprised. "Are they kind to
> you?" one of them then asked. Humouring them, I replied, "Ah yes,
> they're very kind," whereupon a fit of the giggles ensued again. I had
> the impression that I must have found some exceptionally kind-hearted
> Japanese people to be friends with in that they would even go as far as
> to be kind to a gaijin.
>
> It's this kind of attitude that makes me re-think my plans to stay in
> Japan.
I think the unstated was what stimulated the giggles.
"amerikajin wa zenzen skebi desu neee"
Don't you think they were talking about if you were screwing any one.
Maybe even thinking that you were cute, and oh, if they were younger.
From my experience, conversation class was 1 part language learning and 2
parts getting close to one of "them".
Paul A. Guss
On Sat, 17 Aug 1996, Richard wrote:
> But I've heard of many people who were BORN in Japan and went to
> Japanese schools, therefore speaking the language like a native being
> told "Nihongo ga o-jouzu desu ne" because they are recognisable as not
> being racially Japanese. As you may expect, it really DOES cheese them
> off.
While there have been recent postings about JapAngLish, I thought I'd
comment . . .
I like that phrase "cheese them off". Where did that come from? That's
an interesting facet of English too, that one can throw out a phrase like
that and, never having heard it before, we know what it means (I suppose
from pisses off and tees off). In fact, the whole concept of "cheeze" in
and of itself conjures up interestingly recognizable images, bearing on
sarcasm, that (to me) makes English such a queerly interestingly language.
I once heard it commented, in a questionaire of "what foreigners miss most
while in Japan". One good answer was "sarcasm".
The best I have heard of as a definition for "sarcasm" in Japanese is the
work "hiniku", but I have always thought this word more closer to "irony"
in the O'Henry or Guy D'Maupassant sense.
Does Japanese really employ sarcasm in the same sense as English? Where
one thing is said, but in the same barely detectable wink of almost a
nothing, one knows immediately and intuitively that the opposite meaning
is intended?
Paul
Chuck Douglas
Paul A. Guss (wat...@clark.net) wrote:
:
: I like that phrase "cheese them off". Where did that come from? That's
: an interesting facet of English too, that one can throw out a phrase like
: that and, never having heard it before, we know what it means (I suppose
: from pisses off and tees off). In fact, the whole concept of "cheeze" in
: and of itself conjures up interestingly recognizable images, bearing on
: sarcasm, that (to me) makes English such a queerly interestingly language.
It probably came from a mis-hearing of tees off or used as a euphemism
for pisses off (cause you can't say that on tv.)
: Does Japanese really employ sarcasm in the same sense as English? Where
: one thing is said, but in the same barely detectable wink of almost a
: nothing, one knows immediately and intuitively that the opposite meaning
: is intended?
:
Not in my experience. And, yeah, you do tend to miss sarcasm if you use
it alot. The Japanese language (and culture) is very much based on saying
the 'right' thing at the 'right' time in the 'right' way. Sarcasm depends
very much on saying the 'wrong' thing at the 'right' time the 'wrong' way.
As a result, sarcasm just doesn't work in Japanese. It can serve to seriously
offend people.
On the other hand, Japanese lends itself very well to puns (or 'dajare')
because of all the similarity of the sounds to one another. This is why
I enjoy it so much. The creativity of some puns is really incredible and
I even managed to get pretty good at it. As a result, I became known as
'daja-RANGER' or 'daja-sugi.' :)
As an aside, when I was in Australia, I hated the use of sarcasm there. To
me, the way an Aussie says sarcasm is done in the SAME tone of voice and
manner as normal conversation. At which point, you can't tell whether it
is sarcasm or not.
--
Chuck Douglas -- chuc...@prairienet.org
"I don't pretend I have all the answers/Just the obvious ones"
--_Backbone_ by Baby Animals
Homepage now available at: http://jaka.ece.uiuc.edu/~chuckers/
Martin Tom Brown
In article <4v6ah4$5...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
chuc...@prairienet.org "Chuck Douglas" writes:
> Paul A. Guss (wat...@clark.net) wrote:
> :
> : I like that phrase "cheese them off". Where did that come from?
Unclear - my Chambers English dictionary thinks the usage may have
derived from "cheese it" which apparently means run off, run away.
> : Does Japanese really employ sarcasm in the same sense as English? Where
> : one thing is said, but in the same barely detectable wink of almost a
> : nothing, one knows immediately and intuitively that the opposite meaning
> : is intended?
> Not in my experience.
I think I have seen something like it where incorrect usage of excessive
politeness in speach forms was used to deliberately wind up Bucho-san
by a somewhat obnoxious Japanese underling. It always got louder :(
> As a result, sarcasm just doesn't work in Japanese.
> It can serve to seriously offend people.
The only time I recall seeing it used was for that very purpose.
I think sarcasm is best avoided in most languages.
Regards,
--
Martin Brown <mar...@nezumi.demon.co.uk> __ CIS: 71651,470
Scientific Software Consultancy /^,,)__/
Darren Lo
On Mon, 19 Aug 96 11:13:27 GMT, Martin Tom Brown (Mar...@nezumi.demon.co.uk) said something to the effect of:
: I think I have seen something like it where incorrect usage of excessive
: politeness in speach forms was used to deliberately wind up Bucho-san
: by a somewhat obnoxious Japanese underling. It always got louder :(
I've heard (nth-hand) of cases in which extremely exalted honorific language
was used to convey anger. Perhaps this could be considered sarcasm...
[snip]
: I think sarcasm is best avoided in most languages.
No it isn't! =)
--
Darren Lo, darr...@umich.edu +-----------------------------+
+----------------------------------------------+Do not meddle in the affairs |
|Mobius strip for sale... see back for details.|of sextupoles, for they are |
|Klein bottle for sale... inquire within. |subtle and quick to anger. |
+----------------------------------------------+-----------------------------+
web...@tuat.ac.jp
In article <4v6ah4$5...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> chuc...@prairienet.org (Chuck Douglas) writes:
Chuck|Paul A. Guss (wat...@clark.net) wrote:
Chuck|: <Question about sarcasm existing in Japan>
Chuck|
Chuck|Not in my experience. And, yeah, you do tend to miss sarcasm if you use
Chuck|it alot. The Japanese language (and culture) is very much based on saying
Chuck|the 'right' thing at the 'right' time in the 'right' way. Sarcasm depends
Chuck|very much on saying the 'wrong' thing at the 'right' time the 'wrong' way.
Chuck|As a result, sarcasm just doesn't work in Japanese. It can serve to seriously
Chuck|offend people.
As an Australian fond of British humour (Monty Python, The Goodies,
etc.), sarcasm has been something I miss in Japan. I've found that
in most cases it just goes straight over their (the Japanese) heads
and they miss the point entirely. I don't think I've ever offended
a Japanese person with sarcasm as they just don't seem to get it.
Chuck|On the other hand, Japanese lends itself very well to puns (or 'dajare')
Chuck|because of all the similarity of the sounds to one another. This is why
Chuck|I enjoy it so much. The creativity of some puns is really incredible and
Chuck|I even managed to get pretty good at it. As a result, I became known as
Chuck|'daja-RANGER' or 'daja-sugi.' :)
I enjoy Japanese word-play, too. The fine interplay
between a 'boke' and 'tsukkomi' who know each other
well can be hilarious, and a high-tempo Kansai-accent
(maybe Osaka, I can't tell the difference) makes it
even better.
For those of you who don't know, 'boke' and 'tsukkomi'
are the roles assumed by comedians in 'manzai', a
Japanese style of humour. The 'boke' is the person
who says something stupid, while the 'tsukkomi' is
the person who replies to this in a serious manner.
I don't think there is much that parallels to Japanese
manzai in modern Western (English language) humour,
where solitary stand-up comedians are most prominent
(such as Bill Cosby, Woody Allen, or Eddie Murphy,
depending upon your age). In these cases the audience,
or a drum-roll on a snare-drum, serves as the 'tsukkomi'.
Manzai is usually carried out by two comedians, with
each assuming the role of 'boke' of 'tsukkomi', or
in some cases alternating the roles during the one
routine. There are some manzai groups with more than
two members, but the two basic roles of boke and
tsukkomi remain the same.
Manzai, and the boke/tsukkomi relationship, is similar
to early American humour, such as Abbott and Costello
or other comedians of WWII vintage, and before. The
classic Abbott and Costello routine 'Who's on first?'
is a good example of a boke/tsukkomi type of relationship.
Though I doubt there are that many people who know this.
Some English (language) humour can be explained in
terms of boke/tsukkomi. For example in:
A: 'My dog doesn't have a nose.'
B: 'How does he smell?'
A: 'Terrible.'
Here A is similair to the boke role, while B is the
tsukkomi. Another example is:
B: 'Who was that lady I saw you out with last night?'
A: 'That was no lady, (pause) that was my wife.'
Here again, A is the boke and B is the tsukkomi. Or,
one of the classic Marx Brothers' jokes:
Groucho: 'Don't worry, this contract has an insanity clause.'
Chico: 'Aah, you can't fool me. I know there ain't no
insanity clause.'
Say Chico's line with non-PC Italian accent so that 'insanity
clause' sounds like 'Santa Claus'. There's an audio file of
this on the Web at:
<http://evlweb.eecs.uic.edu/pape/Marx/sounds/sanity-clause.au>
Here Chico Marx is the boke. One thing I just noticed,
the order the boke and tsukkomi work in seems to be
reversed in Japanese humour. i.e. in the above American
jokes:
A says something straight, and then
B replies with something stupid.
While with Japanese manzai,
A says something stupid, and then
B hits him on the head with something (or the verbal
equivalent).
Perhaps the easiest way to explain boke and tsukkomi is
that the 'boke' is the 'fall guy' in the jokes, while
the 'tsukkomi' is the 'straight man'. Though in manzai
it is the 'tsukkomi' who takes the more active role.
Chuck|As an aside, when I was in Australia, I hated the use of sarcasm there. To
Chuck|me, the way an Aussie says sarcasm is done in the SAME tone of voice and
Chuck|manner as normal conversation. At which point, you can't tell whether it
Chuck|is sarcasm or not.
In Australia it's "common knowledge" (note quote marks) that
Americans don't understand sarcasm. People from the states
who have spent an extended period of time overseas, especially
in England or Australia, have remarked on this too.
As to Australian sarcasm being done in the same tone of voice
and manner as normal conversation, it's meant to be _subtle_
and we can tell the difference. Don't worry, it's not really
meant to be offensive, if we wanted to offend you we would say
it straight out. In Australian society (I think) there is a
custom of light-hearted camaraderie between friends, or 'taking
the mickey out' of things serious. This is not to be taken
serious as it is just light-hearted fun, though this doesn't
seem to come across too well to some Americans (no slight
meant here).
Rodney.
--
Rodney Webster at the Tokyo University | I disagree with opinions,
of Agriculture and Technology | Not people
http://www.tuat.ac.jp/~nakagawa/students/Webster/Welcome.html