訳にはいけない
JimBreen
In JMdict/EDICT we currently have:
わけにはいかない (exp) impossible to do
(although wants to)
An entry has been proposed:
わけにはいけない (exp) should not; can not
(used at the end of a sentence)
One editor suggests they really mean the same
thing. I feel the ...いけない conveys a "should not"
sense.
What are the views of the SLJ experts?
Jim
Tad Perry
news:308712a9-736a-4707...@z19g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
The English form "[blank] won't do" is very close to the Japanese sense,
although context definitely allows "should not" as a possibility. If I think
of more, I'll get back to you. The main point is that [blank] is
inappropriate and inadvisable.
tvp
Ben Finney
> わけにはいかない (exp) impossible to do
> (although wants to)
>
> An entry has been proposed:
> わけにはいけない (exp) should not; can not
> (used at the end of a sentence)
>
> One editor suggests they really mean the same thing. I feel the
> ...いけない conveys a "should not" sense.
The difference, between 「いかない」 “does not go” versus 「いけない」
“cannot go”, indicates a difference in meaning of the idioms. Your
glosses seem okay.
I would interpret 「いかない」 as you have: “due to forces beyond
[one's] control, it is impossible”. Perhaps a circumstantial or
ability-based excuse for the impossibility; “please ask again at another
time or place and perhaps we can accommodate your request”.
The “cannot do” sense of 「いけない」 lends more weight to the inherent
impossibility of the action itself, to my ear. The action is something
that could *never* be done as described; “I will not be so impolite to
say it directly, but you shouldn't even be asking for this, it's just
*not done*”.
> What are the views of the SLJ experts?
Perhaps your editor doesn't get the sense of admonishment from the new
entry's “should not” gloss, whereas I think the (mild) admonishment is
the heart of the difference between the two. Can we find a way to change
the gloss to communicate that nuance better?
--
\ “Why was I with her? She reminds me of you. In fact, she |
`\ reminds me more of you than you do!” —Groucho Marx |
_o__) |
Ben Finney
Tad Perry
news:308712a9-736a-4707...@z19g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
Googling around for it, I can really only find "nai wake ni wa ikenai",
which amounts to "must not fail to" as far as I understand. I didn't get any
significant hits on "wake ni wa ikenai" without the -nai tense first.
Do you have any good sample sentences?
tvp
Tad Perry
news:308712a9-736a-4707...@z19g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
I've run across two sentences that use this since my initial answer.
One case of "wake ni wa ikanai" where there wasn't really a choice, the
option was impossible, and one with "ikenai" that definitely had a
connotation of "shouldn't." Extra data points for what it's worth.
tvp
Bungo
> "JimBreen" <jimbr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'.....wake niwa ikanai' is quite good.
But isn't there something wrong wtih another phrase (or expression)
'.....wake niwa ikenai'?
'wake niwa' and 'ikenai' can be combined, I think.
On the other hand, "Wake (riyuu) niwa motte ikenai." may sounds
somehow understandable.
--------------------------------------------
B. Ito
JimBreen
> What are the views of the SLJ experts?
Thanks for the comments and investigation. I think it
would be safest to stick with distinct glosses for
the two expressions.
Jim
Tad Perry
news:bb03458b-4431-4fa4...@n2g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
Now, that you mention it, I have to check that. I found it at the University
of Washington today. I remember that the "ikanai" setence used "niwa" and I
can't remember for sure whether or not the "ikenai" sentence also had "wa"
or not!
tvp
Bungo
> "Bungo" <jg2...@wonder.ocn.ne.jp> wrote in message
>
> news:bb03458b-4431-4fa4...@n2g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 6, 9:50 am, "Tad Perry" <tadpe...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> "JimBreen" <jimbr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >>news:308712a9-736a-4707...@z19g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> > I'd like an opinion on two Japanese expressions.
>
> >> > In JMdict/EDICT we currently have:
>
> >> > わけにはいかない (exp) impossible to do
> >> > (although wants to)
>
> >> > An entry has been proposed:
> >> > わけにはいけない (exp) should not; can not
> >> > (used at the end of a sentence)
>
> >> > One editor suggests they really mean the same
> >> > thing. I feel the ...いけない conveys a "should not"
> >> > sense.
>
> >> > What are the views of the SLJ experts?
>
> >> I've run across two sentences that use this since my initial answer.
> >> One case of "wake ni wa ikanai" where there wasn't really a choice, the
> >> option was impossible, and one with "ikenai" that definitely had a
> >> connotation of "shouldn't." Extra data points for what it's worth.
>
> >> tvp- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
> > '.....wake niwa ikanai' is quite good.
>
> > But isn't there something wrong wtih another phrase (or expression)
> > '.....wake niwa ikenai'?
>
> > 'wake niwa' and 'ikenai' can be combined, I think.
>
> Now, that you mention it, I have to check that. I found it at the University
> of Washington today. I remember that the "ikanai" setence used "niwa" and I
> can't remember for sure whether or not the "ikenai" sentence also had "wa"
> or not!
>
> tvp- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let me then make the following sentences to cover some situations.
Kare ni au wake niwa ikanai. OK ( not possible, no will
to meet)
Kare ni awanai wake niwa ikanai. OK (obligation to meet)
Kare ni au wake niwa ikenai. NG
Kare ni awanai wake niwa ikenai. ? (OK, in case 'not
possible to go')
(possible only like in the following meaning)
Kare ni awanai wake niwa (kanojo no tokoro ni) ikenai. OK
(Before you meet her, I must meet him. I can't meet her without
meeting
him beforehand.)
--------------------------------------
B. Ito
Bart Mathias
Bungo <jg2...@wonder.ocn.ne.jp> wrote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> '.....wake niwa ikanai' is quite good.
>
> But isn't there something wrong wtih another phrase (or expression)
> '.....wake niwa ikenai'?
>
> 'wake niwa' and 'ikenai' can be combined, I think.
Is that a typo for "can not [or can't] be combined" by any chance?
> On the other hand, "Wake (riyuu) niwa motte ikenai." may sounds
> somehow understandable.
--
Bart Mathias <mat...@hawaii.edu>
Bungo
> On Sun, 5 Dec 2010 18:27:57 -0800 (PST)Bungo <jg2...@wonder.ocn.ne.jp> wrote:
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> > But isn't there something wrong wtih another phrase (or expression)
> > '.....wake niwa ikenai'?
>
> > 'wake niwa' and 'ikenai' can be combined, I think.
>
> Is that a typo for "can not [or can't] be combined" by any chance?
>
> > On the other hand, "Wake (riyuu) niwa motte ikenai." may sounds
> > somehow understandable.
>
> --
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, I'm very sorry. That's a big typo.
That must be 'can not' instead of 'can'.
-------------------------
B. Ito
Tad Perry
And what about the missing case of:
Kare ni au wake ni ikenai. OK? (should not/not advisable to meet him?)
Is that right?
tvp
Bungo
> >> > '.....wake niwa ikanai' is quite good.
>
> >> > But isn't there something wrong wtih another phrase (or expression)
> >> > '.....wake niwa ikenai'?
>
> >> > 'wake niwa' and 'ikenai' can be combined, I think.
>
> >> Now, that you mention it, I have to check that. I found it at the
> >> University
> >> of Washington today. I remember that the "ikanai" setence used "niwa" and
> >> I
> >> can't remember for sure whether or not the "ikenai" sentence also had
> >> "wa"
> >> or not!
>
> >> tvp- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > Let me then make the following sentences to cover some situations.
>
> > Kare ni au wake niwa ikanai. OK ( not possible, no will
> > to meet)
> > Kare ni awanai wake niwa ikanai. OK (obligation to meet)
>
> > Kare ni au wake niwa ikenai. NG
> > Kare ni awanai wake niwa ikenai. ? (OK, in case 'not
> > possible to go')
> > (possible only like in the following meaning)
>
> > Kare ni awanai wake niwa (kanojo no tokoro ni) ikenai. OK
> > (Before you meet her, I must meet him. I can't meet her without
> > meeting
> > him beforehand.)
>
> And what about the missing case of:
>
> Kare ni au wake ni ikenai. OK? (should not/not advisable to meet him?)
>
> Is that right?
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I should say, ni and niwa are the same usage.
'Niwa' is just only a stressed expression of 'ni'.
Kare ni au wake ni ikenai. NG
On the other,by the way, you must already know
the following expressions are all OK.
Tokyo ni ikenai. OK impossibility
Tokyo niwa ikenai. OK impossibility
Tokyo ni ikanai OK unwillness
Tokyo niwa ikanai. OK unwillness
-----------------------------------------------------------
B. Ito
Bungo
> >> > '.....wake niwa ikanai' is quite good.
>
> >> > But isn't there something wrong wtih another phrase (or expression)
> >> > '.....wake niwa ikenai'?
>
> >> > 'wake niwa' and 'ikenai' can be combined, I think.
>
> >> Now, that you mention it, I have to check that. I found it at the
> >> University
> >> of Washington today. I remember that the "ikanai" setence used "niwa" and
> >> I
> >> can't remember for sure whether or not the "ikenai" sentence also had
> >> "wa"
> >> or not!
>
> >> tvp- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > Let me then make the following sentences to cover some situations.
>
> > Kare ni au wake niwa ikanai. OK ( not possible, no will
> > to meet)
> > Kare ni awanai wake niwa ikanai. OK (obligation to meet)
>
> > Kare ni au wake niwa ikenai. NG
> > Kare ni awanai wake niwa ikenai. ? (OK, in case 'not
> > possible to go')
> > (possible only like in the following meaning)
>
> > Kare ni awanai wake niwa (kanojo no tokoro ni) ikenai. OK
> > (Before you meet her, I must meet him. I can't meet her without
> > meeting
> > him beforehand.)
>
> And what about the missing case of:
>
> Kare ni au wake ni ikenai. OK? (should not/not advisable to meet him?)
>
> Is that right?
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As is often said, "Context, Context, Context", each context
is so important and everything that the problem here between
'...niwa ikanai' and '...niwa ikenai." can't be solved at once
like "Two birds with one stone."
Bunshou niwa sorezoreno bunmyaku mo arukoto dakara,
"....niwa ikanai" to "...niwa ikenai" ni kanshitewa ichigai
niwa ienai.
In this case, it can be expressed in Japanese as follows
(in the two ways, I think):
"Kono mondai wa isseki nichou niwa (=towa) ikanai. OK
"Kono mondai wa isseki nichou niwa (=towa) ikenai. OK
-----------------------------------------
B. Ito
chance
"JimBreen" <jimb...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:308712a9-736a-4707...@z19g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
> I'd like an opinion on two Japanese expressions.
>
> In JMdict/EDICT we currently have:
>
> わけにはいかない (exp) impossible to do
> (although wants to)
>
> An entry has been proposed:
> わけにはいけない (exp) should not; can not
> (used at the end of a sentence)
>
> One editor suggests they really mean the same
> thing. I feel the ...いけない conveys a "should not"
> sense.
Yes, I agree with him. It may mislead you if you decide
there must be a distinctive gloss each for the two.
If pushed for distinction, I don't have
but to say 'ikanai' may sound masculine
while 'ikenai' faminine. Absurd? There you are.
There is no difference between the two.
muchan
> "JimBreen" <jimbr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
I thought this topic was already over...
my take is, that わけにはいけない is mistake.
I don't know how common it is used, but for me
it does not sound acceptable at all.
So, I don't dig in the "difference" of meaning.
You say わけにはいかない,
you don't say わけにはいけない.
That's my answer.
(but sure, I'm not talking as an authority.)
muchan
chance
"muchan" <much...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5ae4f62c-c6a1-49cc...@fo10g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
デモですよ、’わけにはいけない’の方が
’わけにはいかない’のより無慮
ぐぐるによれば２３，２００、０００対１０，７００，０００
の比例で圧倒していますよ。御参考に。
どうも
CK
Bart Mathias
"chance" <cinc...@yahoo.co.kr> wrote:
> [...]
> デモですよ、’わけにはいけない’の方が
> ’わけにはいかない’のより無慮
> ぐぐるによれば２３，２００、０００対１０，７００，０００
> の比例で圧倒していますよ。御参考に。
I wasn't able to get anywhere near those figures, for some reason. For
わけにはいかない Google reported 132,000 hits and 131,000 hits for わけにはいかない.
But when I looked at the first page of examples for the former, there were only
two that actually included the phrase わけにはいけない. The rest just happened to
have わけ or はいけない or something like that in them. Meanwhile the first batch
of examples for わけにはいかない all had that complete expression in them.
--
Bart Mathias <mat...@hawaii.edu>
chance
Andreas Rusterholz
According to the 日本語誤用辞典 （Dictionary of Misused Japanese、スリーエーネットワーク、
2010年）
there is a tendency to use わけにはいけない but nevertheless its wrong.
p. 778: 不可能を表す「わかにはいかない」は、意味から、「わけにはいけない」と可能動詞を用いてしまいがちである。
Andreas
JimBreen
wrote:
> On 2010年12月4日, 午前3:02, JimBreen <jimbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > What are the views of the SLJ experts?
>
> According to the 日本語誤用辞典 （Dictionary of Misused Japanese、スリーエーネットワーク、
> 2010年）
> there is a tendency to use わけにはいけない but nevertheless its wrong.
>
> p. 778: 不可能を表す「わかにはいかない」は、意味から、「わけにはいけない」と可能動詞を用いてしまいがちである。
Thanks for the revived discussion, and the comments from muchan,
chance, Bart, et al.
I think we'll amend the わけにはいけない entry to indicate it's
an incorrect variant of わけにはいかない.
Jim
Bungo
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think itits a reasonable amendments.
'Misused Japanese', that's a good catagory, over which I tried
thinking some more as follows.
Usually the verb, 「行く」 can be used in the both ways.
行かない （いかない、ゆかない）
行けない （いけない、ゆけない）
歩いて行かない
歩いて行けない
as well in positive forms,
持って行く
持って行ける
暮らして行く
暮らして行ける
Whereas, the some are often misused as fallows.
上手く行かない
上手く行けない NG
天候が荒れて行く
天候が荒れて行けない NG
日は暮れて行く
日は暮れて行ける ＮＧ
鉄は錆びて行く
鉄は錆びて行けない ＮＧ (but in some limited context, possible
i.e. 鉄はそんな状態でも錆びて行くー（ける）。）
One of the big reasons of such misuses are that the subject to be
used
with the verb ....行く must have a will or intention to do so, like "X
can go ....".
--------------------------------------------
B. Ito
muchan
> 天候が荒れて行く
> 天候が荒れて行けない NG
>
Possibly the OK case with implied "distination" like
天候が荒れて(遠足に)行けない OK
> 日は暮れて行く
> 鉄は錆びて行く
普通はこういう「助動詞」の「いく」には漢字をつかいませんね。
持っていく、暮らしていく、うまくいく にも僕は漢字を使いません。
Bungo
ーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーー
あぁ、なるほど。それで色々例文を考えて、以上のように書き込んで
来たわたしにも、もう少しはっきりしたものが見えてきました。
助動詞は普通、、、いく、 と書くんだったですね。
それと２行上に使った、、、、して来た、 というのも、そうすると、上の
ような場合は助動詞でしょうから、ひらがな表示の方がはっきりするの
かなぁ。
応援して来た。 I've just returned from cheering the game.
応援してきた。 I've been support the team so far.
、、、、、ってな訳ですね。
> 天候が荒れて(遠足に)行けない OK
たしかに、日本語は、遠足に、のような補足を書き込めば、
大抵の表現がＮＧ から ＯＫに変わるケースはおおいですね。
> > 鉄は錆びて行けない。 ＮＧ
にしても、スキー板に使う釘、鋲の説明の文脈では、ステンレスなら
いいが鉄ではすぐ錆びるからそんなスキー板は持って（履いて）行けない
、、、、、、なぁ～んていう場合もあるでしょうからね。
ーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーーー
Ｂ．Ｉｔｏ
Bart Mathias
I see five examples, not counting yours, on the first two pages. And one of the
five was citing it as "incorrect Japanese."
--
Bart Mathias <mat...@hawaii.edu>