two translation questions
la...@clark.net
Hi,
I've only been studying Japanese for about 6 months now so
please forgive my ignorance.
First, I encountered the word sundeimashita and am pretty
sure it was being used as a form of the verb sumu "to reside".
(A translation of the context went something like "Once upon a
time there "lived" an old man ...)
Anyway, I'm confused because I would have though that the past
tense of sumu would have been sumimashita. I looked in a couple
of texts and the only one that explicitly conjugated the sumu
meaning "to reside", used sumimashita. (I do know that there is
a sumu meaning "did" but I can't find anything in my texts that
would imply that the two sumu's should be conjugated differently.)
In any case, if the past tense of sumu "to reside" is always
sundeimashita, then what is the rest of the conjugation and
are there other verbs that would be conjugated similarly?
My other question is much shorter. What does the ending ~sareta mean?
I've encountered it (written in hiragana) following the kanji
character HAN (as in hannin meaning "criminal") but I can't find any
verb ending that looks like ~sareta and I can't find find any words in
my various dictionaries that look like < a reading of HAN > followed by
sareta.
That's it for now. If anyone has any help to offer, it will be
greatly apprecited. Feel free to post or email me directly.
Thanks in advance,
John
Matt McDevitt
>First, I encountered the word sundeimashita and am pretty
>sure it was being used as a form of the verb sumu "to reside".
>(A translation of the context went something like "Once upon a
sumu is to live, reside........
since it's a -mu verb, the endings are -nde and -nda.
sunde imasu, (plain: sunde iru or sunderu) lives
sunde imashita (plain: sunde ita) lived
you're right it's the only form you're going to find.....it's one of those
verbs that has to be progressive.......
>verb ending that looks like ~sareta and I can't find find any words in
>my various dictionaries that look like < a reading of HAN > followed by
>sareta.
sareta.....well, hanasareta would mean "I let someone speak" or "I had
someone speak" it's to force or have someone to something...that's the sare
part......the -ta is the past ending.
Matt
Gerald B Mathias
la...@clark.net wrote:
: First, I encountered the word sundeimashita and am pretty
: sure it was being used as a form of the verb sumu "to reside".
: (A translation of the context went something like "Once upon a
: time there "lived" an old man ...)
"sumu" is usually treated as a verb that means something like
"to settle." Therefore it is used in the durative form, with
the "-te" form of the verb (which becomes "-de" with verbs
ending "...mu/ ...bu/ ...nu") followed by a verb of animate
location (iru/oru/irassyaru) in most cases. (There are exceptions
mostly in written Japanese and mainly when it is used as a
modifier, so don't be surprised if you run into something like
"hokkaidoo-ni sumu ainu-wa ...")
Note that this has nothing to do with *tense*. If you want to
say you live somewhere, it's "[dokodoko]-ni sunde imasu."
: (I do know that there is
: a sumu meaning "did" but I can't find anything in my texts that
: would imply that the two sumu's should be conjugated differently.)
But there isn't a "sumu" meaning "did." There is one meaning "be
settled, come to an end." Perhaps you are thinking of that.
: are there other verbs that would be conjugated similarly?
You bet. For example, if you think "kiru" means "wear" (instead
of "don") you will need the durative "-te iru" form. "niru" for
"resemble" is used as "nite i-..." Etc.
: My other question is much shorter. What does the ending ~sareta mean?
: I've encountered it (written in hiragana) following the kanji
: character HAN (as in hannin meaning "criminal") but I can't find any
: verb ending that looks like ~sareta and I can't find find any words in
: my various dictionaries that look like < a reading of HAN > followed by
: sareta.
"sareta" can be the passive of "suru" 'do.' However, in this case,
it is the ending of the passive form of "okasu" 'violate,' namely
"okasareta" 'was violated.'
Bart
Graeme Thom
I don't know if anyone has already responded to your
question, but I'll give it a shot. Hope this helps!
Also, I recommend you get hold of a book which I
found particularly useful in trying to understand
the mechanics of Japanese grammar:
"A DICTIONARY OF BASIC JAPANESE GRAMMAR"
<Nihongo Kihon Bunpou Jiten>
Seiichi Makino and Michio Tsutsui
Published by The Japan Times
I'm not a book salesman, just a keen student.
Don't be put off by the 'basic' title, as
opposed to 'advanced' grammar. This book is
great to develop a solid foundation in the
Japanese language. Lots of clear explanations,
example sentences (in Romaji and Japanese
text), references to related words/topics ...
To quote the blurb on the back cover:
---------------------------------------------------------
A DICTIONARY OF BASIC JAPANESE GRAMMAR offers
a new approach to the interpretation of Japanese
grammar and provides, in dictionary format, a
convenient reference of grammar-related expressions.
Accurate and concise, the grammar explanations
incorporate the results of recent research in
Japanese linguistics.
This work is designed primarily for such people
as those who:
- are not satisfied with the grammar explanations in
Japanese textbooks,
- have studied Japanese grammar but need more
comprehensive information about its use in
different contexts,
- want to learn the distinctions among similar
grammatical expressions,
- are looking for a supplement to dictionaries which
lack grammatical explanations,
- need a basic grammar review.
A DICTIONARY OF BASIC JAPANESE GRAMMAR consists of five
sections. The first section familiarizes the reader with
the grammatical terms used throughout the text. The second
provides an overview of the major grammar concepts of
Japanese. The third and main portion of the text is devoted
to descriptions and explanations of the basic grammar items.
The fourth and fifth sections, consisting of eight
appendixes and three indexes, complete the text.
This book helps the reader to obtain an in-depth
understanding of basic grammar structures, which
leads to more accurate usage. Overall, it constitutes
a standard reference for Japanese and can be considered
indespensable to the study of the language.
---------------------------------------------------------
Anyway, back to your question.
One concept you will come across is the '-te' form
verb conjugation. In the case of 'sumimasu' meaning
'to reside/dwell/live' the -te form is 'sunde' (in
this case -de rather than -te).
The base form of the verb is 'sumu' as you know.
Understanding the structure of base form verbs
is critical for developing -te form conjugations.
For example, the base form of the verb 'shimasu'
(to do) is 'suru' and during the action of doing
something translates to 'shite iru' where the -te
form is 'shite' and 'iru' is the base form of
'imasu' (so in the long form it would be shite
imasu). The word 'iru/imasu' also means 'exist'
but should not be confused with this meaning
(although sometimes it does seem to make sense).
To say 'I am (presently) living in Tokyo' would
be 'Tokyo ni sunde iru/imasu' and although you
could also say 'Tokyo ni sumimasu' is doesn't
sound as natural.
Another example:
Do you eat fish (can you eat fish/do you like fish)?
- Sakana o tabemasu ka?
I eat fish (fish is one kind of food I eat).
- Sakana o tabemasu.
What are you eating (right now/at present)?
- Nani o tabete imasu ka?
I am eating fish (right now/at present).
- Sakana o tabete iru/imasu.
What did you eat?
- Nani o tabeta/tabemashita ka?
I ate fish.
- Sakana o tabeta/tabemashita.
What were you eating? (What action were
you doing at that time in the past?)
- Nani o tabete imashita ka?
I was eating fish (at that particular
time in the past).
- Sakana o tabete imashita.
The past of 'sumu/sumimasu' is 'sunda/sumimashita.'
The -te form is sunde, so in the context of the
passage you were reading, the old man was 'living/
residing' in a certain place at a particular point
in time, thus the Japanese is 'sunde imashita.'
Regarding your second question about 'sareta,'
again the above-mentioned book will be of great
assistance. The word 'sareru/saremasu' is the
passive form of 'suru/shimasu' and means 'for
something to have happened (been done)' usually
by a third party (person or thing).
Morbid example:
korosu (to kill)
Kare o koroshimashita (I killed him)
korosareru (to be killed)
Kare wa korosaremashita (He was killed - by somebody/thing)
Many Japanese words that derived from Chinese 'kanji'
do not have their own unique Japanese verb form. Most
use the base character, and have the verb 'suru/shimasu'
attached to the end.
An example is 'han' from 'hantai' meaning opposition.
The verb 'to oppose' is 'han suru.'
In your case, however, the character HAN followed by 'sareta'
is not read as 'han sareta' but 'okasareta' meaning a crime
was committed (by somebody). This charachter HAN has two
main readings (as do most kanji): the ON yomi reading,
derived from the original Chinese pronunciation, and the
KUN yomi reading where a character has been borrowed to
fit a Japanese word/verb using Japanese pronunciation.
HAN is the ON yomi reading
OKASU/OKASHIMASU id the KUN yomi reading, meaning to
commit a crime.
You might also want to obtain a good Kanji dictionary.
Hope all this helps. Good luck with your studies.
Ganbatte kudasai.
Regards,
Graeme Thom
la...@clark.net wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I've only been studying Japanese for about 6 months now so
> please forgive my ignorance.
>
> First, I encountered the word sundeimashita and am pretty
> sure it was being used as a form of the verb sumu "to reside".
> (A translation of the context went something like "Once upon a
> time there "lived" an old man ...)
> Anyway, I'm confused because I would have though that the past
> tense of sumu would have been sumimashita. I looked in a couple
> of texts and the only one that explicitly conjugated the sumu
> meaning "to reside", used sumimashita. (I do know that there is
> a sumu meaning "did" but I can't find anything in my texts that
> would imply that the two sumu's should be conjugated differently.)
> In any case, if the past tense of sumu "to reside" is always
> sundeimashita, then what is the rest of the conjugation and
> are there other verbs that would be conjugated similarly?
>
> My other question is much shorter. What does the ending ~sareta mean?
> I've encountered it (written in hiragana) following the kanji
> character HAN (as in hannin meaning "criminal") but I can't find any
> verb ending that looks like ~sareta and I can't find find any words in
> my various dictionaries that look like < a reading of HAN > followed by
> sareta.
>
Thomas Baetzler
Graeme Thom wrote:
> Also, I recommend you get hold of a book which I
> found particularly useful in trying to understand
> the mechanics of Japanese grammar:
>
> "A DICTIONARY OF BASIC JAPANESE GRAMMAR"
> <Nihongo Kihon Bunpou Jiten>
It's currently out of print, though :-/
Bye,
--
Thomas Baetzler