fun'iki, fuinki
Sean Holland
There was a thread about "fun'iki" in japan.lang.japanese, a newsgroup
in which Japanese discuss Japanese in Japanese. A couple of juku lecturers
were commiserating with each other about their ignorant students who said
"fuinki" instead of "fun'iki". I decided to take the plunge and joined in
with my experience: I learned the word in the natural way, through hearing
it in conversation, and it was only after saying "fuinki" for a year or so
that I decided I'd like to know the kanji. Could I find it in the
dictionary? No. Eventually I learned that the "real" word is "fun'iki",
which of course is how one would read 雰囲気. But in all these years of
conversing with Japanese I can hardly recall an instance when I've heard
someone say "fun'iki" unless it was in a formal speech. It seems to me
that everyone I know says "fuinki".
I was scolded by the juku teachers for learning Japanese in an incorrect
way. Clearly they believed that language is something learned from books
or from teachers like themselves. They claimed that THEY always said
"fun'iki" and expressed astonishment that the evil "fuinki" had penetrated
the masses as completely as I was implying.
So, to native speakers, wise old-timers and everyone else: What say you?
Do I have my head up the wrong place in this matter, or do those juku
teachers have pickles up the wrong place? Or....?
--
Sean Holland
Gerald B Mathias
Sean Holland (seho...@islandnet.com) wrote:
: There was a thread about "fun'iki" in japan.lang.japanese, a newsgroup
Ha! sci.lang.japan beat japan.lang.japanese to a thread on this topic by
about five years--long enough ago that I have forgotten the upshot.
I have still to notice anyone saying "fuinki." Guess I don't get into
enough conversations, and unfortunately I learned Japanese by sight, so
it never occurred to me to say it that way (I still think it would be
striking to *hear* it).
Bart
Richard Kaminski
Gerald B Mathias wrote:
> Sean Holland (seho...@islandnet.com) wrote:
> : There was a thread about "fun'iki" in japan.lang.japanese, a
> newsgroup
> : in which Japanese discuss Japanese in Japanese.
>
> Ha! sci.lang.japan beat japan.lang.japanese to a thread on this topic
> by
> about five years--long enough ago that I have forgotten the upshot.
I remember the last time too, but I don't think it was as long as five
years, maybe about three. Can't remember the upshot either.
>
>
> I have still to notice anyone saying "fuinki." Guess I don't get into
>
> enough conversations, and unfortunately I learned Japanese by sight,
> so
> it never occurred to me to say it that way (I still think it would be
> striking to *hear* it).
>
> Bart
I think a lot of confusion arising from this word is that some gaijin
tend to pronounce it with an "n" sound so that it sounds like fu-ni-ki,
(instead of fun-i-ki) thus rendering it instantly unintelligible to
Japanese mimi.
Likewise, the other way round, the Japanese "n" can often sound very
much like a vowel to Western ears, thus perhaps making the "fun" part
sound more like "fu", and the whole perhaps more like "fuiiki" or
"fuinki". I'm not saying that's the case with the present person asking
the question, but I have noticed it before among others with this word.
A lot of people have problems with "ryo" as well, as in "ryokan". Lots
of gaijin pronounce it "ryoukan" which means no one can understand them.
Kaminski (whose pronunciation is very dubious too ....)
--
Kaze yo
Naburu na
Shishi no
Tategami wo!
Sean Holland
In article <359BE6E1...@nospamhotmail.com>, Richard Kaminski
<dobun...@nospamhotmail.com> wrote:
>I think a lot of confusion arising from this word is that some gaijin
>tend to pronounce it with an "n" sound so that it sounds like fu-ni-ki,
>(instead of fun-i-ki) thus rendering it instantly unintelligible to
>Japanese mimi.
>
(snip the etcetera)
The discussion in japan.lang.japanese had nothing to do with
foreigners' pronunciation. It was strictly a matter of current usage by
Japanese themselves. The Japanese were discussing hearing OTHER Japanese
say "fuinki".
I learned "fuinki" on the hoof, conversing with other members of my
band, friends, and bar patrons in the early 80's. But I also distinctly
remember this usage from school teachers with whom I worked.
--
Sean Holland
Mark
In article <6ngkvk$d...@news.Hawaii.Edu>, mat...@Hawaii.Edu (Gerald B
Mathias) wrote
> Sean Holland (seho...@islandnet.com) wrote:
> : There was a thread about "fun'iki" in japan.lang.japanese, a newsgroup
> : in which Japanese discuss Japanese in Japanese.
>
> Ha! sci.lang.japan beat japan.lang.japanese to a thread on this topic by
> about five years--long enough ago that I have forgotten the upshot.
>
> enough conversations, and unfortunately I learned Japanese by sight, so
> it never occurred to me to say it that way (I still think it would be
> striking to *hear* it).
>
> Bart
My wife (Japanese) thought that the actual word was spelled "fuinki" as
well. Only after reading novels and having to look up the reading for the
characters did I realize that the "real" spelling is "fun'iki". I have
yet to hear anyone say it that way and simply assumed that this was one of
the rare cases in Japanese where spelling and pronunciation did not
coincide.
Mark
a former UH EALL student
Sean Holland
In article <sp2XXsp-0207...@ev-97-abr7e.stanford.edu>,
sp2...@yahoo.com (Mark) wrote:
>My wife (Japanese) thought that the actual word was spelled "fuinki" as
>well. Only after reading novels and having to look up the reading for the
>characters did I realize that the "real" spelling is "fun'iki". I have
>yet to hear anyone say it that way and simply assumed that this was one of
>the rare cases in Japanese where spelling and pronunciation did not
>coincide.
There, finally someone who backs up what I have been saying. What a
deep and wise fellow you are, Mark!
--
Sean Holland
M Arnold
seho...@islandnet.com (Sean Holland) writes:
>with my experience: I learned the word in the natural way, through hearing
>it in conversation, and it was only after saying "fuinki" for a year or so
Oh, good. Looks like my ears do still work. I was confused (to say the
least) when I looked it up and found "fun'iki." I always said "fuinki" up
to that point, and nobody bothered to correct me (if it was wrong)...
>teachers have pickles up the wrong place?
Probably. <:-)
Mike A
okmelody
Sean Holland 寫道：
> There was a thread about "fun'iki" in japan.lang.japanese, a
> newsgroup
> in which Japanese discuss Japanese in Japanese. A couple of juku
> lecturers
> were commiserating with each other about their ignorant students who
> said
> "fuinki" instead of "fun'iki". I decided to take the plunge and joined
> in
> with my experience: I learned the word in the natural way, through
> hearing
> it in conversation, and it was only after saying "fuinki" for a year
> or so
> that I decided I'd like to know the kanji. Could I find it in the
> dictionary? No. Eventually I learned that the "real" word is
> "fun'iki",
> which of course is how one would read $BJ70O5$ (J. But in all these
> years of
> conversing with Japanese I can hardly recall an instance when I've
> heard
> someone say "fun'iki" unless it was in a formal speech. It seems to me
>
> that everyone I know says "fuinki".
> I was scolded by the juku teachers for learning Japanese in an
> incorrect
> way. Clearly they believed that language is something learned from
> books
> or from teachers like themselves. They claimed that THEY always said
> "fun'iki" and expressed astonishment that the evil "fuinki" had
> penetrated
> the masses as completely as I was implying.
> So, to native speakers, wise old-timers and everyone else: What say
> you?
> Do I have my head up the wrong place in this matter, or do those juku
> teachers have pickles up the wrong place? Or....?
>
> --
> Sean Holland
Sean:
I understand your situation. Sometimes, oral pronunciation may not
correspond with written pronunciation. That's very true. This
phenonmenon can be found in all languages, I think. That is why I
always find listening the most difficult part of language study in my
experience.
In my opinion, it's better to remember the formal pronunciation (i.e.
funiki) or else you may fall into the trap of writing the wrong one
(i.e."fuinki") in composition or essay. You know people may hold a
higher expectation on your written Japanese than oral one. Most native
speakers can understand what you are talking about when there are few
mistakes in pronunciation. But for written Japanese, it is considered
to be a formal communication & correct pronunciation should be followed.
okmelody
Richard Kaminski
okmelody wrote:
I think this mistake would be rather difficult to make in practice. I
mean, you'd have to think of two totally different kanji for "fu" and
"in" to replace the correct two. Far easier just to remember the correct
ones, whatever the pronunciation.
> You know people may hold a
> higher expectation on your written Japanese than oral one.
I don't know. I find that people tend to judge you more on your oral
skills. After all, those are what they come into contact with most
often. People speak to each other far more often than they write to each
other (except on Usenet, ha!).
> Most native
> speakers can understand what you are talking about when there are few
> mistakes in pronunciation. But for written Japanese, it is considered
>
> to be a formal communication & correct pronunciation should be
> followed.
So how can you follow pronunciation when you write kanji??! Of course
you can write fun'iki phonetically, but I think it is a word that would
almost always be written in kanji. As for correct pronunciation being
followed in written Japanese, I think you'll find this isn't followed
very much in the Japanese newsgroups at least, where you can often see
"honto ni" and other such stuff.
--
Kaze yo naburu na
Shishi no tategami wo
Tim Shimano
After all the discussion about FUN'IKI, is it only me that finds it
a bit odd that the word spelled with an "F" where Japanese do
not have this sound at all? Or is it just a matter of convenience
for non-native-speakers? Or are the younger generation of
Japanese somehow aquired to utter this F sound?
When my non-Japanese-speaking friends ask me about the swear
word in Japanese I always joked like this: "No, Japanese don't
swear the way you would in English because we don't have an
"F" sound." ;-) (Of course, this is NOT true, we DO swear!)
Tim Shimano
Chuck Douglas
seho...@islandnet.com (Sean Holland) writes:
[edit]
> I was scolded by the juku teachers for learning Japanese in an incorrect
>way. Clearly they believed that language is something learned from books
>or from teachers like themselves. They claimed that THEY always said
>"fun'iki" and expressed astonishment that the evil "fuinki" had penetrated
>the masses as completely as I was implying.
> So, to native speakers, wise old-timers and everyone else: What say you?
>Do I have my head up the wrong place in this matter, or do those juku
>teachers have pickles up the wrong place? Or....?
A thread like this appeared a few years ago. If I recall correctly,
(which can always be called into question) most people seemed to agree
that the word was INDEED pronounced "fuinki" quite often but that
the word should be "fun'iki." The discussion then went on to try to find
other words that had such a euphonic change in them. I don't recall
any other examples.
--
Chuck Douglas -- chuc...@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu
"I don't pretend I have all the answers/Just the obvious ones"
--_Backbone_ by Baby Animals
Homepage down until further notice.
Chuck Douglas
Richard Kaminski <dobun...@nospamhotmail.com> writes:
>okmelody wrote:
[edit]
>> Most native
>> speakers can understand what you are talking about when there are few
>> mistakes in pronunciation. But for written Japanese, it is considered
>>
>> to be a formal communication & correct pronunciation should be
>> followed.
>So how can you follow pronunciation when you write kanji??! Of course
>you can write fun'iki phonetically, but I think it is a word that would
>almost always be written in kanji. As for correct pronunciation being
>followed in written Japanese, I think you'll find this isn't followed
>very much in the Japanese newsgroups at least, where you can often see
>"honto ni" and other such stuff.
You'll have a problem putting into kanji if you are using a "wapuro"
with a romaji input method. "fuinki" just won't get the kanji you
are looking for.
Koji Kawakami
Sean Holland wrote:
> There was a thread about "fun'iki" in japan.lang.japanese, a newsgroup
> in which Japanese discuss Japanese in Japanese. A couple of juku lecturers
> were commiserating with each other about their ignorant students who said
> "fuinki" instead of "fun'iki". I decided to take the plunge and joined in
> with my experience: I learned the word in the natural way, through hearing
> it in conversation, and it was only after saying "fuinki" for a year or so
> that I decided I'd like to know the kanji. Could I find it in the
> dictionary? No. Eventually I learned that the "real" word is "fun'iki",
> which of course is how one would read 雰囲気. But in all these years of
> conversing with Japanese I can hardly recall an instance when I've heard
> someone say "fun'iki" unless it was in a formal speech. It seems to me
> that everyone I know says "fuinki".
> I was scolded by the juku teachers for learning Japanese in an incorrect
> way. Clearly they believed that language is something learned from books
> or from teachers like themselves. They claimed that THEY always said
> "fun'iki" and expressed astonishment that the evil "fuinki" had penetrated
> the masses as completely as I was implying.
> So, to native speakers, wise old-timers and everyone else: What say you?
> Do I have my head up the wrong place in this matter, or do those juku
> teachers have pickles up the wrong place? Or....?
>
> --
> Sean Holland
Very interesting and saddning at the same time, I have never heard "fuinki'
pronaunciation
for all my life. Looking forward to hear "fuinki" next time I go to japan,
or may be in Canada.
/koji
K.Ohara
[原文略]
A glottal stop (<'> of fun'iki) between vowels is difficult to keep; if
easier,
one tends to change them into vowels followed by 'n' (as fu-in-ki). This is
a supposition.
Another one:
The word fun'iki is composed of kanji on-yomi, as you know.
Ancient pre-kanji japanese (yamato-kotoba) had no/very few words with 'n'
(ん, not na/ni/nu/ne/no) followed by vowels.
So japanese feel out of place when we hear/pronounce such words,
BTW, is there any problem if you pronounce fuinki and nobody bothers you?
Characters are characters and pronunciation don't necessarily have
one-to-one
correspondence, you know.
Once the voice written down, then the relation between the voice and the
written
thing becomes a sign; this interdependence makes sense even if the voice is
odd.
There are some people who force their normative definitions, but clearly
we don't have to be bothered by them, if everyone uses the usage.
----
K.Ohara khaz...@gol.com
joe_k...@yahoo.com
In article <chuckers....@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu>,
chuc...@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu (Chuck Douglas) wrote:
> A thread like this appeared a few years ago. If I recall correctly,
> (which can always be called into question) most people seemed to agree
> that the word was INDEED pronounced "fuinki" quite often but that
> the word should be "fun'iki." The discussion then went on to try to find
> other words that had such a euphonic change in them. I don't recall
> any other examples.
A word with "n" sound followed by a vowel is always difficult to pronounce as
"n" sounds almost nasal (sounds like a vowel) and followed that by a vowel
makes it difficult to pronounce the word correctly especially when we are
talking quickly. I am not sure if this is equivalent but in French "mon ami"
is "mon" whether it's male or female. Perhaps two consequtive bowels make the
word almost unpronouceable if it's "ma ami".
Joe
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http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Ben Bullock
Richard Kaminski wrote:
>
> Gerald B Mathias wrote:
>
> > : There was a thread about "fun'iki" in japan.lang.japanese, a
> > newsgroup
> > : in which Japanese discuss Japanese in Japanese.
> >
> > by
> > about five years--long enough ago that I have forgotten the upshot.
>
> years, maybe about three. Can't remember the upshot either.
I think it was about three years ago as well.
> I think a lot of confusion arising from this word is that some gaijin
> tend to pronounce it with an "n" sound so that it sounds like fu-ni-ki,
> (instead of fun-i-ki) thus rendering it instantly unintelligible to
> Japanese mimi.
I think that was the conclusion last time as well.
--
Ben Bullock
Richard Kaminski
K.Ohara wrote:
> [原文略]
>
> A glottal stop (<'> of fun'iki) between vowels is difficult to keep;
As seen in the pronunciation by some people of "ba'ai" as "bawai".
Sean Holland
In article <359CD6C6...@soliton.com>, Koji Kawakami
<ko...@soliton.com> wrote:
> Very interesting and saddning at the same time, I have never heard "fuinki'
>pronaunciation
>for all my life. Looking forward to hear "fuinki" next time I go to japan,
>or may be in Canada.
>
In the japan.lang.japanese thread that got me onto this topic, several
of the Japanese posters wrote that even if someone said "fuinki", they
heard "fun'iki". Anyway, why should you be saddened?
--
Sean Holland
Ben Bullock
Chuck Douglas wrote:
> A thread like this appeared a few years ago. If I recall correctly,
> (which can always be called into question) most people seemed to agree
> that the word was INDEED pronounced "fuinki" quite often but that
> the word should be "fun'iki."
The issue isn't what most people think, but what is correct. I'd
rather listen to one person who knows what they are talking about
than twenty `my japanese wife says' people.
If Japanese people (and not just Japanese wives) really are saying
`fuinki', how is it that at least one native speaker said he'd
never heard of it?
The real explanation is that foreigners mispronounce the word,
as every Japanese teacher will tell you.
Gerald B Mathias
: > Sean Holland (seho...@islandnet.com) wrote:
: > : There was a thread about "fun'iki" in japan.lang.japanese, a
: > newsgroup
: > : in which Japanese discuss Japanese in Japanese.
: >
: > Ha! sci.lang.japan beat japan.lang.japanese to a thread on this topic
: > by
: > about five years--long enough ago that I have forgotten the upshot.
: I remember the last time too, but I don't think it was as long as five
: years, maybe about three. Can't remember the upshot either.
You're right. I wished later I'd said "three" for improved accuracy.
: I think a lot of confusion arising from this word is that some gaijin
: tend to pronounce it with an "n" sound so that it sounds like fu-ni-ki,
: (instead of fun-i-ki) thus rendering it instantly unintelligible to
: Japanese mimi.
: Likewise, the other way round, the Japanese "n" can often sound very
: much like a vowel to Western ears
Well, no wonder! It often *is* a vowel, and the word "fun'iki" is a
case where it has to be (until "fuinki" with a consonant "n" becomes
legal).
: A lot of people have problems with "ryo" as well, as in "ryokan". Lots
: of gaijin pronounce it "ryoukan" which means no one can understand them.
Like most of my students, who in particular procede to write it that way
in kana until they learn the kanji (and then the same on "write in
hiragana the readings for these kanji" tests). My guess is the "ry" is
so hard to get out, they need to relax on the vowel a while before
tackling another consonant. (Actually my students say "ryoo"; I get
most of them cured of the English "o" = "ou" problem.)
Bart
Gerald B Mathias
Richard Kaminski (dobun...@nospamhotmail.com) wrote:
: K.Ohara wrote:
I have lived long enough in Hawaii (Hava`i) long enough to know that
glottal stops are easy to keep between vowels.
But it doesn't happen in normal Japanese, in "baai" or "fun'iki."
Hattori Shiro posited a "zero phoneme" for cases like "baai," and
suggested some sort of "glottal constriction," but it doesn't show
up in sound spectrograms of normal speech.
Glottal stops show up commonly at the end of emphatic speech, and
at the beginning of a sentence that doesn't start with another
consonant, in Japanese. And in songs like "ue-o muite aruko`o`o`oo."
Bart
Sean Holland
In article <359D3A38...@hayamasa.demon.co.uk>, Ben Bullock
<b...@hayamasa.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>The issue isn't what most people think, but what is correct. I'd
>rather listen to one person who knows what they are talking about
>than twenty `my japanese wife says' people.
>
>If Japanese people (and not just Japanese wives) really are saying
>`fuinki', how is it that at least one native speaker said he'd
>never heard of it?
>
>The real explanation is that foreigners mispronounce the word,
>as every Japanese teacher will tell you.
If you had followed the thread carefully, and if you had spent any
significant length of time in a Japanese speaking environment actually
speaking Japanese, then you would not have made the above statement. I
started this thread after reading and participating in a thread on this
topic in a Japanese language NG. The issue of foreigners was not raised at
all. It is all about what Japanese speakers themselves are "supposed" to
say, and what many of them actually DO say, which are sometimes different
things.
Your sneering superiority about people reporting what the native speaker
closest to them has to say on matters Japanese is quite mysterious. Why on
earth should you feel that way? Why do you place more faith in your
dictionaries than in what people actually say?
--
Sean Holland
Roger Morris
Ben Bullock wrote:
> The issue isn't what most people think, but what is correct. I'd
> rather listen to one person who knows what they are talking about
> than twenty `my japanese wife says' people.
In my opinion, what most Japanese people think is correct, IS correct.
For what it's worth, I've never heard fun'iki, only fuinki, from
Japanese speakers. Sometimes, it even sounds like it should be
spelled "fwinki".
--Roger
Ben Bullock
Roger Morris wrote:
> For what it's worth, I've never heard fun'iki, only fuinki, from
> Japanese speakers. Sometimes, it even sounds like it should be
> spelled "fwinki".
The reason it sounds like that is because of the different pronunciation
of N when it comes before a vowel. I think if you read what
Bart Mathias says about it it will be clearer.
Scott Reynolds
Chuck Douglas wrote:
> A thread like this appeared a few years ago. If I recall correctly,
> (which can always be called into question) most people seemed to agree
> that the word was INDEED pronounced "fuinki" quite often but that
> the word should be "fun'iki." The discussion then went on to try to find
> other words that had such a euphonic change in them. I don't recall
> any other examples.
How about "suimasen" for "sumimasen"? This pronunciation has become so
common that one often sees it written that way in Usenet posts, manga,
and the like.
_______________________________________________________________
Scott Reynolds s...@gol.com
Mark
> The issue isn't what most people think, but what is correct. I'd
> rather listen to one person who knows what they are talking about
> than twenty `my japanese wife says' people.
>
> If Japanese people (and not just Japanese wives) really are saying
> `fuinki', how is it that at least one native speaker said he'd
> never heard of it?
Well the explanation probably lies in the well-known fact that Japanese
women, upon marrying non-Japanese, not only cease being "Japanese people"
but also undergo a strange metamorphosis wherein they lose their ability
to pronounce Japanese "correctly". Surely there's money in it for s/he
who writes a compelling grant proposal on this topic.
Of course one might also question how one can support "fun'iki" as the
"correct" pronunciation when at least one native speaker had never heard
of it before being "corrected" by a foreigner. Perhaps the contradiction
implies that the issue cannot be resolved simply by consulting a
dictionary?
> The real explanation is that foreigners mispronounce the word,
> as every Japanese teacher will tell you.
You're ignoring the fact that many Japanese also "mispronounce" the word.
One should also be a little more flexible in terms of one's view of
dictionaries and "authorities". It would seem to me (a mere "husband", to
be sure) that the otherwise honorable position of the linguist becomes
rather unstable and more than a little absurd when it changes from being
descriptive to proscriptive in its approach to language. Your statement
that "The issue isn't what most people think, but what is correct,"
ignores the trend in living languages for the two eventually to become one
and the same--whether linguists like it or not (hint: what most people
think usually wins).
If you have a point to make please go right ahead and make it. However if
all you are offering me is a choice between my wife and your Japanese
teacher, I'll take my wife.
Mark.
------
remove dos equis for reply.
Lei Tanabe
Tim Shimano wrote in message <359cb...@job.acay.com.au>...
>After all the discussion about FUN'IKI, is it only me that finds it
>a bit odd that the word spelled with an "F" where Japanese do
>not have this sound at all? Or is it just a matter of convenience
>for non-native-speakers? Or are the younger generation of
>Japanese somehow aquired to utter this F sound?
I have always felt "ふ" shouldn't be spelt "fu" but "hu", being puzzled why
Hepburn decided this way though the rest of ha-gyou letters are with "h".
BTW I never thought there's someone who pronounces "huinki".
"fun'iki" is always "fun'iki" no other way.
And I suspect because of this n-i(boin) combination and the Japanese "n"
pronunciation, "fun'iki" might sound like "fuinki" or someone hears like
that. This isn't a long discussing matter. "fuinki" is a pure mistake.
Lei
Ad Timmering
Sean Holland wrote in message ...
I too, learned "fun'iki" the textbook way, and was thus very surprised to
hear the daughter of my homestay family (where i went one week during my one
year stay) pronounce it "fuinki". Wanting to check whether it was here
pronunciation or my foreign mimi, causing the difference, I wrote the kanji
on a paper and asked here to add the furigana, and yes, she wrote "fu i n
ki" (and this girl was a daigakuinsei !). I then asked other people in the
neighbourhood (including the homestay mama) and they indeed, told me that
mostly young people pronounce it as "fuinki" though the 'correct' (read:
original) pronunciation is "fun'iki".
Ad
okmelody
Tim Shimano 寫道：
> After all the discussion about FUN'IKI, is it only me that finds it
> a bit odd that the word spelled with an "F" where Japanese do
> not have this sound at all? Or is it just a matter of convenience
> for non-native-speakers? Or are the younger generation of
> Japanese somehow aquired to utter this F sound?
>
> When my non-Japanese-speaking friends ask me about the swear
> word in Japanese I always joked like this: "No, Japanese don't
> swear the way you would in English because we don't have an
> "F" sound." ;-) (Of course, this is NOT true, we DO swear!)
>
> Tim Shimano
I sometimes do find that some Japanese pronounce "F" while some don't
(but actually they may have already pronounced it, the situation is
similar to "f" & "v" in English. I hope you understand what I mean). I
think whether or not a Japanese pronounces "F" clearly depends on
his/her origin instead of age.
okmelody
muchan
About fun'iki, we talked over before and I don't expect to see new thing here...
I wonder if /i/ is pronounced clearly. I mean tendency of natives when they
say it fast, is rather /hun(g)ki/ where /n(g)/ (without g) is said already with
mouth shaped to say i, that some people can hear it as /huinki/.. so my guess
is it's said as /hu-(i)ng(i)-ki/ (without release of /g/) and natives add /i/
mora conceptually, and non-natives (and young natives?) tends to here /i/
said preceeding to n.
As for /ba-ai/, I think tendency is to be said as long /baai/
(with pitch LHH, without glottal stop, so pitch raises in the middle of long /aa/)
I think here /bawai/ sometimes, but /baai/ is more often.
for writing of /fu/, I prefare /hu/. But in some languages, (german, Slovenian,
etc., /hu/ is pronounced with very deep /h/, so hepburn probably wanted to
distinguish from /hu/. (/hwu/ is very correct, but annoying to write.)
muchan
okmelody
Ad Timmering 寫道：
> I too, learned "fun'iki" the textbook way, and was thus very surprised
> to
> hear the daughter of my homestay family (where i went one week during
> my one
> year stay) pronounce it "fuinki". Wanting to check whether it was here
>
> pronunciation or my foreign mimi, causing the difference, I wrote the
> kanji
> on a paper and asked here to add the furigana, and yes, she wrote "fu
> i n
> ki" (and this girl was a daigakuinsei !). I then asked other people in
> the
> neighbourhood (including the homestay mama) and they indeed, told me
> that
> mostly young people pronounce it as "fuinki" though the 'correct'
> (read:
> original) pronunciation is "fun'iki".
>
> Ad
The girl wrote "fu i n ki" is not surprising at all! People tend to
write in accordance with their pronunciation in mind & that's why I
suggest learners to remember "fun i ki", the formal pronunication. Of
course, people usually write this word in kanji format, but don't take
it for granted that people can remember the kanji all the time.
Sometimes, they may forget it all of a sudden. Japanese kids may not
understand the kanji too. There are different dialects in Japan.
Kids/adults from different areas may not understand one another's
dialect, but it's sure that they can understand the standard Japanese
(hyoujuhgo) which they derive from school. "Fun i ki" is just the
standard pronunciation & if you write it to the girl, she should be able
to understand it. But if you write "fu i n ki" to Japanese people of
other origins, they may not understand what you mean.
okmelody
Ad Timmering
okmelody wrote in message <35A0DFEE...@hotmail.com>...
>There are different dialects in Japan.
>Kids/adults from different areas may not understand one another's
>dialect, but it's sure that they can understand the standard Japanese
>(hyoujuhgo) which they derive from school. "Fun i ki" is just the
>standard pronunciation & if you write it to the girl, she should be able
>to understand it. But if you write "fu i n ki" to Japanese people of
>other origins, they may not understand what you mean.
I agree, but contrary to f.e. Chinese, Japanese knows (as far as I know) no
different readings per region for a single word (I am not talking about
readings such as "ichiji" and "hitotoki" and so on). I don't think that when
you write 'kusuguttai' that someone will read this as 'kosobaika' in
northern Kyushu or 'kosobai' in the Kansai (I admit, this is a bit of an
ayashii example).
Ad
Michael Welsh Duggan
"Tim Shimano" <da...@acay.nospam.com.au> writes:
> After all the discussion about FUN'IKI, is it only me that finds it
> a bit odd that the word spelled with an "F" where Japanese do
> not have this sound at all? Or is it just a matter of convenience
> for non-native-speakers? Or are the younger generation of
> Japanese somehow aquired to utter this F sound?
It's not all that surprising when you get down to it. It is merely
that the bilabial fricative used by the mora typically romanized as
`fu' or `hu' is not used in the English language, and most people find
the sound closer to the labiodental fricative `f' than the glottal
fricative `h'.
--
Michael Duggan
(md...@cs.cmu.edu)
Stu the Hillbilly Drummer Girl
On 06 Jul 1998 10:43:54 -0400, Michael Welsh Duggan <md...@cs.cmu.edu>
wrote:
>It's not all that surprising when you get down to it. It is merely
>that the bilabial fricative used by the mora typically romanized as
>`fu' or `hu' is not used in the English language, and most people find
>the sound closer to the labiodental fricative `f' than the glottal
>fricative `h'.
It's paragraphs like that that make me want to study linguistics. I'm
looking forward to the day that I can say "bilabial" with a straight
face.
Labiodental. Heh. Don't mind me, just a passing sukebe gaijin.
__ _______ | "Thanks to modern-day marketing... all of our young
\ \/ _ _/ | people are potential slaves to malt liquor."
\ / / / | - Warren Bolton, Editorial Writer,
\/ /_/ | The State newspaper, June 10, 1998
hayakawa takashi
Gerald B Mathias <mat...@Hawaii.Edu> wrote:
>Like most of my students, who in particular procede to write it that way
>in kana until they learn the kanji (and then the same on "write in
>hiragana the readings for these kanji" tests).
I am a native Japanese and had misunderstood the spelling of
"fun'iki" until a junior high exam which had a question: "write
the kanji for FUN'IKI". And I asked the teacher, "Itn't it
FUINKI?" :-p
One of the problems with misspelling is typewriting. It seems
most computer doesn't convert "fuinki" into kanji.
>(Actually my students say "ryoo"; I get
>most of them cured of the English "o" = "ou" problem.)
A similar confusion, as "ou" = "oo", happens in Japanese. The
misspelling "sono touri" for "sono toori" is very common on
netnews. --h-takasi
muchan
> As for /ba-ai/, I think tendency is to be said as long /baai/
> (with pitch LHH, without glottal stop, so pitch raises in the middle of long /aa/)
> I think here /bawai/ sometimes, but /baai/ is more often.
>
I wonder if I really say it with LHH pitch. It is surelly correct in conception,
but I do probably say most of case with HHH...
So I went into the hypothese of "conceptual accent".
Standard (Tokyo) accent has two rules.
(1) pitch moves between the 1st and 2nd moras.
(2) once down, never up in the same unit
Being said, we know it the 2nd is High, first must be Low. (conceptually),
and so in reality lazy speech don't go the 1st enough Low, and say it
in HH way, but we apply it to hear as if we heard LH word.
(Sure, for people who learn Japanese as foreign language, advantage is
to learn correct (conceptual) accent very strictly at least once, and
learn to be as lazy as natives are as your proficiency goes up.)
-- So, learn /fun(g)-iki/ first, and be trelant to hear /fuinki/!
For me, it's a interesting idea that what I actually hear is not what I
conceptually think to hear...
muchan
Gerald B Mathias
: I am a native Japanese and had misunderstood the spelling of
: "fun'iki" until a junior high exam which had a question: "write
: the kanji for FUN'IKI". And I asked the teacher, "Itn't it
: FUINKI?" :-p
By now, native and non-native speakers alike must accept the fact
that there is a Japanese word "fuinki" meaning 'ambience.'
A philosophical question: Is it Sino-Japanese, or pure Japanese
with ateji?
: Gerald B Mathias <mat...@Hawaii.Edu> wrote:
: >(Actually my students say "ryoo"; I get
: >most of them cured of the English "o" = "ou" problem.)
: A similar confusion, as "ou" = "oo", happens in Japanese. The
: misspelling "sono touri" for "sono toori" is very common on
: netnews.
No, this is a different phenomenon. I was talking about
pronunciation. Nobody who misspells "toori" when they write it
in kana actually *says* "touri" I'm sure (but not quite so sure
as before the "fuinki" case came up!). English speakers tend
to put a "w" on the end of "o," so it sounds sort of like "ou,"
long or short.
Bart
hayakawa takashi
>By now, native and non-native speakers alike must accept the fact
>that there is a Japanese word "fuinki" meaning 'ambience.'
Hmm, it's still a misunderstanding, I think.
>A philosophical question: Is it Sino-Japanese, or pure Japanese
>with ateji?
I'm not sure right now, but it's interesting.
>: A similar confusion, as "ou" = "oo", happens in Japanese. The
>: misspelling "sono touri" for "sono toori" is very common on
>: netnews.
>
>No, this is a different phenomenon. I was talking about
>pronunciation. Nobody who misspells "toori" when they write it
>in kana actually *says* "touri" I'm sure (but not quite so sure
>as before the "fuinki" case came up!).
Oh, I should have said that the pronunciation of "ou" is almost
the same as "oo", and "oo" is minor in spelling.
>English speakers tend
>to put a "w" on the end of "o," so it sounds sort of like "ou,"
>long or short.
OK, I get it. --h-takasi
Richard Kaminski
Chuck Douglas wrote:
> Richard Kaminski <dobun...@nospamhotmail.com> writes:
>
> >okmelody wrote:
>
> [edit]
>
> >> Most native
> >> speakers can understand what you are talking about when there are few
> >> mistakes in pronunciation. But for written Japanese, it is considered
> >>
> >> to be a formal communication & correct pronunciation should be
> >> followed.
>
> >So how can you follow pronunciation when you write kanji??! Of course
> >you can write fun'iki phonetically, but I think it is a word that would
> >almost always be written in kanji. As for correct pronunciation being
> >followed in written Japanese, I think you'll find this isn't followed
> >very much in the Japanese newsgroups at least, where you can often see
> >"honto ni" and other such stuff.
>
> You'll have a problem putting into kanji if you are using a "wapuro"
> with a romaji input method. "fuinki" just won't get the kanji you
> are looking for.
No, of course not. But if you know the kanji, you will know that the fun one
is indeed fun and not fu. The same thing for the "i". You're in trouble of
course if you don't actually know how to write the word in kanji, and are
relying on pronunciation only, but the same would be true of "honto" (instead
of hontou) or "bawai" (instead of ba'ai).
Richard Kaminski
Koji Kawakami wrote:
>Very interesting and saddning at the same time, I have never heard "fuinki'
> pronaunciation
> for all my life. Looking forward to hear "fuinki" next time I go to japan,
> or may be in Canada.
>
> /koji
I didn't think it was pronounced like that myself (but being a gaijin, what would I
know) and posted here to that effect. But I must admit that yesterday, I heard it
from a native speaker with my own ears. I don't know whether the discussion here
had attuned me to the possibility and whether my mind had automatically filtered it
out in the past, but this person quite definitely said "fuinki" to me.