Kansai Dialect-here are a few lessons
-=|**X**|=-
Mokarimakka,,,,,, "How is business?"
Osaka has been the city of merchants since the middle ages, so
people living in Kansai often exchange greetings like merchants.
Bochi Bochi Denna ,,, "Not bad." Answer to "Mokarimakka".
Ookini ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, "Thanks"
Hottoitenka ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, "Leave me alone." It is said in an angry
tone.
Nannbo? ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"How much?"
Makete--ya,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, "Make cheaper."
If you want to buy something in Kansai,you had better say this word.
In Kansai beating down the price is very common, So the prices displayed in
the front of shops are often not best prices. If you have confidence in
Japanese, you must try to beat down prices.
Gottui Sukiyanenn ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Gottui" means "very much".
"Sukiyanenn" means "I love".
"-yanenn",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"-yanenn" is used just like
"-desu" of the standard Japanese. For example,"Sou-yanenn"(It
means "Sou-desu.)
ChauChau,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, "Chau" means "No,it isn't". It is
often used repeatedly like so.
Nametonnoka,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, "Don't make a fool of me!!"
Honmakaina,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, "Really?""Is it true?"
--
_
/ \ _-'
_/| \-''- _ /
Itsuko Nishikawa
>Sainara,,,,,,,,,,,,,, "Good bye."with tender and familiar feeling
>Mokarimakka,,,,,, "How is business?"
>Osaka has been the city of merchants since the middle ages, so
>people living in Kansai often exchange greetings like merchants.
>Bochi Bochi Denna ,,, "Not bad." Answer to "Mokarimakka".
>Ookini ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, "Thanks"
It's funny but I reply with those words only when non-Osaka people
say these to me.
>Hottoitenka ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, "Leave me alone." It is said in an angry
>tone.
>Nannbo? ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"How much?"
>Makete--ya,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, "Make cheaper."
>If you want to buy something in Kansai,you had better say this word.
>In Kansai beating down the price is very common, So the prices displayed in
>the front of shops are often not best prices. If you have confidence in
>Japanese, you must try to beat down prices.
Only at certain places, though.
>Gottui Sukiyanenn ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Gottui" means "very much".
> "Sukiyanenn" means "I love".
>"-yanenn",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"-yanenn" is used just like
>"-desu" of the standard Japanese. For example,"Sou-yanenn"(It
>means "Sou-desu.)
The standard Japanese for "yanen" is not "desu" but "Nda" because "yanen"
is casual and indicates that the speaker is explaining or is talking emotively.
>ChauChau,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, "Chau" means "No,it isn't". It is
>often used repeatedly like so.
>Nametonnoka,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, "Don't make a fool of me!!"
>Honmakaina,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, "Really?""Is it true?"
I've never used those.
Reg Macdonald
: lnjo...@sdcc15.ucsd.edu ( -=|**X**|=-) writes:
: >Mokarimakka,,,,,, "How is business?"
: >people living in Kansai often exchange greetings like merchants.
: >Bochi Bochi Denna ,,, "Not bad." Answer to "Mokarimakka".
Or, particularly during the Heisei Fukyou, you might be honest and sa
"Nakanaka moukarahen na."
: >Ookini ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, "Thanks"
Or, "Maido Ookini!", or just "Maido!"
: It's funny but I reply with those words only when non-Osaka people
: say these to me.
: >Hottoitenka ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, "Leave me alone." It is said in an angry
How about "Dokan ka ware!", or just "Jama ya!" for "Get out of the
fuckin' way!" Try saying it and looking tough as you peddle angrily
along the sidewalk on your basket-equiped mama-chari, fiercely ringing
your bell at all who dare to oppose you!
: >Nannbo? ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"How much?"
: >Gottui Sukiyanenn ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Gottui" means "very much".
: > "Sukiyanenn" means "I love".
: >"-yanenn",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"-yanenn" is used just like
: >"-desu" of the standard Japanese. For example,"Sou-yanenn"(It
: >means "Sou-desu.)
"YAPPA SUKI YA NEN, YAPPA SUKI YA NE~N..."
: >ChauChau,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, "Chau" means "No,it isn't". It is
: >often used repeatedly like so.
: >Nametonnoka,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, "Don't make a fool of me!!"
: >Honmakaina,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, "Really?""Is it true?"
: I've never used those.
How can you be from Osaka and never have used those phrases? Sore demo
omae Kansaijin ka?? Have you never heard the classic Osaka rakugo joke
about the conversation regarding chow-chow dogs??
"Ah, are...chow-chow, chau?"
"Iya, are ha chow-chow chau, chau?"
"Chau ya! Chow-chow chau yaro!"
etc, etc... see rakugo @ Yoshimoto Kogeki for the full version...much
longer and much funnier than this.
And..."Takasugiru ya nai ka!! Nametonnoka?!" or worse, "Namennayo",
"Shibaittaro ka!!", "Ondoriya shibakudo kora!!" (only use the last one if
you're a Yakuza...then again, if you're already in a bouryokudan, then
you don't need me telling you that...)
And worst of all, how can you never have heard of Honma kai na??? Just
watch the Hikkoshi Sakai commercials..."Honma kai na, Sou kai na, Hey!".
Maido ookini.
Yoshihiro Mizutani
>
>
You forgot one of the wildcard: Maido !!
Is it Kansai ? I'm not sure..
Yoshi Mizutani
J.C. Kelly
>
> Mokarimakka,,,,,, "How is business?"
>
> Osaka has been the city of merchants since the middle ages, so
> people living in Kansai often exchange greetings like merchants.
>
> Bochi Bochi Denna ,,, "Not bad." Answer to "Mokarimakka".
>
I think I have seen this (or heard this) generalization every time I have
ever heard someone talk about Kansai-ben. Starting today, I am going to start
my own little counter-revolution against this. PEOPLE DO NOT SAY MOUKARIMAKKA
IN REAL LIFE!!! This is someone's idea of what Kansai-ben is. So another way
to think of it is like saying "Every time you go to a store in Atlanta, they
will say 'Y'all come back now, ya hear!'". They may say it (especially to
northern tourists :) but it is not real life. And normal people (not
store employees/owners) certainly DO NOT greet each other this way. Please
remove this expression from any mental notes you have about Kansai-ben.
> Ookini ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, "Thanks"
>
> Hottoitenka ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, "Leave me alone." It is said in an angry
> tone.
>
> Nannbo? ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"How much?"
>
> Makete--ya,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, "Make cheaper."
>
> If you want to buy something in Kansai,you had better say this word.
> In Kansai beating down the price is very common, So the prices displayed in
> the front of shops are often not best prices. If you have confidence in
> Japanese, you must try to beat down prices.
>
> Gottui Sukiyanenn ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Gottui" means "very much".
> "Sukiyanenn" means "I love".
>
> "-yanenn",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"-yanenn" is used just like
> "-desu" of the standard Japanese. For example,"Sou-yanenn"(It
> means "Sou-desu.)
>
> ChauChau,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, "Chau" means "No,it isn't". It is
> often used repeatedly like so.
Chau de... Is a common variant.
> Nametonnoka,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, "Don't make a fool of me!!"
This can also be expressed more colorfully in English :-) Just as I won't use
that expression here, I wouldn't use that Japanese expression unless I was
good and sure of myself.
> Honmakaina,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, "Really?""Is it true?"
Better translation -- "What are you kidding me?"
Does anyone else have any other expressions? Anyone else actually live in
Kansai and can give some real-life examples? Maybe it was already discussed,
but no discussion of Kansai-ben should be without this word:
akan
This is short for "akanai", or "akimasen (pronounced "akimahen" in Kansai),
and is used as is "ikemasen" -- shite wa ikemasen becomes "shitara akan" in
Kansai.
It is also used just to mean "dame" -- Here's an example:
You look like you aren't going to make it to the train, and you say:
"Akan! Ma ni awahen." In Hyojun-go, this is "Dame! Ma ni awanai!"
I could go on typing all day, but I'll leave it to others for more uses of
akan.
J.C.
Chuck Douglas
[edit]
: Does anyone else have any other expressions? Anyone else actually live in
: Kansai and can give some real-life examples? ... [edit]
People in Kansai tend to use 'oru' for 'iru' (to be) a fair amount.
There is also a whole system of keigo which is mostly heard in Kyoto
but it is not totally uncommon else where in Kansai.
It uses the verb stem plus -haru and that is conjugated as a normal verb
ending. Example:
Shio-chan mou ikiharimashita.
(Shio has already left.)
There is a tendancy to completely drop the 'su' from conjugate present
tense verbs. Example:
Wakarima ka?
(Do you understand?)
Sometimes, phonetic changes are made in past tense verbs. Example
Nani wo koutta ka
{Nani wo katta ka}
(What did you buy?)
Densha ga itte-shimoutta
{Densha ga itte-shimatta}
(The train left [without me])
And, of course, the ever present change of -nai to -hen or -masen to -mahen
endings for negative verbs. (As has been mentioned.)
Tokyo-ben zenzen wakarimahen
(I don't understand Tokyo accents)
People in different areas of Kansai also have varying accent differences.
Some people DO say "Mou karimakka" whereas others do not. I tend to
speak with a fairly thick Kansai accent which most Japanese pick immediately.
It can be embarrassing at times but it sort of fits in with my personality
as a somewhat laid-back person.
--
Chuck Douglas -- chuc...@prairienet.org
"I don't pretend I have all the answers/Just the obvious ones"
--_Backbone_ by Baby Animals
Coming soon: My own Homepage. Watch this space for details!
Ben Bullock
> There is also a whole system of keigo which is mostly heard in Kyoto
> but it is not totally uncommon else where in Kansai.
This "haru" crops up all the time in my comic books which are written
in Oosaka dialect. I noticed some similarities with your post but
also some differences so maybe you can clarify my questions below.
> It uses the verb stem plus -haru and that is conjugated as a normal verb
> ending. Example:
>
> Shio-chan mou ikiharimashita.
> (Shio has already left.)
Are you sure you put "mashita" on the end of this?
> There is a tendancy to completely drop the 'su' from conjugate present
> tense verbs. Example:
>
> Wakarima ka?
Should there not be a kka here?
> (Do you understand?)
>
> Sometimes, phonetic changes are made in past tense verbs. Example
>
> Nani wo koutta ka
Should this not be "kouta"?
> {Nani wo katta ka}
> (What did you buy?)
>
> People in different areas of Kansai also have varying accent differences.
> Some people DO say "Mou karimakka" whereas others do not. I tend to
Surely it's "mokarimakka" ("mokarimasu ka") not "mou karimakka"?
> speak with a fairly thick Kansai accent which most Japanese pick
> immediately. It can be embarrassing at times but it sort of fits in
> with my personality as a somewhat laid-back person.
It's nice to know that you're so laid back. I speak with a foreign
accent which fits in with my not being able to speak correctly.
--
Ben Bullock @ KEK (national lab. for high energy physics, Tsukuba, Japan)
e-mail: b...@theory.kek.jp www: http://theory.kek.jp:80/~ben/
1-1 Oho, Tsukuba, Ibaraki 305, Japan. tel: 0298 64 5403, fax: 0298 64 7831
J.C. Kelly
BEN, LET ME JUMP IN AND ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS.
>
> This "haru" crops up all the time in my comic books which are written
> in Oosaka dialect. I noticed some similarities with your post but
> also some differences so maybe you can clarify my questions below.
>
> > It uses the verb stem plus -haru and that is conjugated as a normal verb
> > ending. Example:
> >
> > Shio-chan mou ikiharimashita.
> > (Shio has already left.)
>
> Are you sure you put "mashita" on the end of this?
YES, THIS IS CORRECT. OF COURSE, YOU CAN ALSO SAY "IKIHATTA", BUT THE LATER
IS LESS FORMAL.
>
>
> > There is a tendancy to completely drop the 'su' from conjugate present
> > tense verbs. Example:
> >
> > Wakarima ka?
>
> Should there not be a kka here?
IT SHOULD INDEED BE "WAKARIMAKKA?"
>
> > (Do you understand?)
> >
> > Sometimes, phonetic changes are made in past tense verbs. Example
> >
> > Nani wo koutta ka
>
> Should this not be "kouta"?
THIS SHOULD INDEED BE KOUTA. FURTHER, THIS IS NOT JUST DONE IN PAST TENSE,
BUT ALSO IN THE -te FORM OF VEBS (eg, "au", to meet, can be said "outte-ru",
the nembers add up)
>
> > {Nani wo katta ka}
> > (What did you buy?)
> >
>
> > People in different areas of Kansai also have varying accent differences.
> > Some people DO say "Mou karimakka" whereas others do not. I tend to
>
> Surely it's "mokarimakka" ("mokarimasu ka") not "mou karimakka"?
> IT IS BOTH :-) IT SHOULD BE "MOUKARIMAKKA?". AS FAR AS I KNOW, THERE IS NO
WORD MOKARU, AS OPPOSED TO MOUKARU, TO MAKE MONEY (OR TO SET UP, TO
ESTABLISH).
HOPE THAT'S HELPFUL!!
J.C.
Scott Myatt
but I was able to pick up a little in my stay in the kansai area. The
use of "akan" was mentioned, but one of the important bunpou that it is
used in was not. The Tokyo-ish phrase would be "tabenakucha naranai,"
while in Osaka it could be heard as "tabena akan." BTW Wakayama-ben is a
little bit different in that it would change to "tabeya akan."
As was posted earlier, these are generalizations, and not everyone in
that area speaks like this.
Chuck Douglas
: Chuck Douglas (chuc...@prairienet.org) wrote:
[edit]
: > It uses the verb stem plus -haru and that is conjugated as a normal verb
: > ending. Example:
: >
: > Shio-chan mou ikiharimashita.
: > (Shio has already left.)
: Are you sure you put "mashita" on the end of this?
Yes, it is conjugate as if it were a verb unto itself. Ikiharu would
become ikiharimashita or ikihatta (not as formal.)
:
: > There is a tendancy to completely drop the 'su' from conjugate present
: > tense verbs. Example:
: >
: > Wakarima ka?
: Should there not be a kka here?
Possibly. That is the problem with accents. It is really hard to WRITE
them consistently as opposed to saying them. And romaji is such an imprecise
mapping, anyway (I HATE romaji. I wish we all had japanese capable
computers.)
: > (Do you understand?)
: >
: > Sometimes, phonetic changes are made in past tense verbs. Example
: >
: > Nani wo koutta ka
: Should this not be "kouta"?
Same problem as above. Possibly but I am not sure. I SAY these things
but don't often write them. For writing, in general, it is a good idea
to use hyoujungo to get your ideas across. For talking with friends,
an accent is no big deal (expecially if that have a similar one.)
: > People in different areas of Kansai also have varying accent differences.
: > Some people DO say "Mou karimakka" whereas others do not. I tend to
: Surely it's "mokarimakka" ("mokarimasu ka") not "mou karimakka"?
I split this in a bad place. It should be "moukarimakka" from the verb
moukaru meaning bring in a profit. I told you I hate romaji.
Btw, which manga do you read that have Kansai-ben in them? Most of the
ones I read do not (or a small smattering of it if a character is supposed
to be from the area.)
--
Chuck Douglas -- chuc...@prairienet.org
"I don't pretend I have all the answers/Just the obvious ones"
--_Backbone_ by Baby Animals
Homepage now available at: http://jaka.nn.com/~chuckers
Benjamin Barrett
Regarding J.C. Kelly's remark that people do not _normally_ use
"moukarimakka?", I would agree though I have known people as young as 20
using it two or three years ago as a greeting to other merchants.
The word "akan" I believe is not a shortening of "akimasen," but "ikemasen."
Note that there is also a form "ikan," as in "yattara ikan"; akan was
probably developed from that for euphony.
The verb form change in "kouta" or "kotta" (both are found) is ONLY for -u
verbs... Although I have never studied old Japanese, -u verbs obviously have
some roots in the wa-gyou (wa-wi-wu-we-wo) producing kawanai for don't kau
and (tentatively) su(w)enai for can't suu. I have seen in novels of sengoku
jidai Japanese forms such as kouta and hirouta (hirou). I believe that this
feature of Kansai Japanese is merely preserving an older form shedded by the
newer Tokyo dialect. This sort of preservation can also be seen in the
Kyuushuu dialect where the particles -ga and -no are interchangeable or at
least semi-interchangeable (very common in older Japanese). I've always
felt myself at an advantage with regards to older Japanese over those
studying in Tokyo because of the wider exposure and older remnants in the
language.
Nobody has noted the ri-adverb transformation. In general, if an adverb
ends in -ri, a doubling of the consonant of the second occurs, and the -ri
changes to a -shi:
amari : ammashi
yahari: yappashi (doubling an "h" causes j -> p)
bakari: bakkashi
sappari: sappashi (consonant is already doubled)
A couple people have mentioned "ikiharu" for the sonkei form of iku, but
no-one has noted ikaharu. I always thought -a- is more common, but my gut
feeling is that this is a feature of Osakan Japanese, not Kansai Japanese in
general.
How about suru and kuru, the nastiest verbs of all? I remember sitting at a
coffee shop with a hang-over one morning and the oba-chan at the end of the
counter said, "tenisu-o seehen ka?" and I exploded in a rapture of satori
(and a lot of laughing by the oba-han and her cohorts). I don't know why
no-one had pointed it out to me, because I had been in Kawachi for a while
by then.
I've heard: seehen, sen, and shiihen; for kuru, it was explained to me
that: Kyoto-kiihen, Osaka-keehen, Kobe-kouhen. It seems to me koahen is
fairly widespread, too.
Kind of running on, here.
yoroshiku
Benjamin Barrett
Benjamin Barrett
In article <30F776...@gol.com> J.C. Kelly wrote:
>Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 01:06:49 -0800
>Benjamin Barrett wrote:
>
>> The word "akan" I believe is not a shortening of "akimasen," but
> "ikemasen."
>> Note that there is also a form "ikan," as in "yattara ikan"; akan was
>> probably developed from that for euphony.
>>
>
>In my experience, this is clearly akimasen. You can hear it when
> kansai-jin
>doushi talk, and one is using -masu forms. I have often heard 'Sore shika
>akimasen (even akimahen)' or 'yarana akimahen' type comments.
I think that "akimasen/akimahen" here means "won't do" and isn't related to
"akan." If anything, I would think (IMHO) that it might reinforce the
phonetic change from ikan to akan.
>This seems right, now that you mention it. It often happens with
>nani-nani shite shimatta. It comes out shimotta. Even just the word
>"Shimatta" as a sentance meaning "Now I've done it" or however you should
>translate it, comes out as "Shimotta!" here. I can also think of morou for
>morau.
The shi- for shimouta is often deleted : yatte mouta.
>Is it hyojun-go to say "Kon de ii" or "Sen de ii" (You don't have to come,
> or
>don't come, and you don't have to do it, or don't do it)? These are common
>expressions here, along with things like "Yaran de ii", etc.
hyoujungo : konakute(mo) ii, shinakute(mo) ii
>
>What about "yaran-tokou", "iwantokou", etc. (Yaranai-de okou, Iwanai-de
>okou). These seem like everyday expressions here. I wonder if they are
>Kansai-ben or just part of a general verbal language that they never teach
>you. Anyone know?
This is an excellent one!! I never have mastered the way to say this in
standard Japanese, mainly because it's a bloody pain in the oshiri.
yoroshiku
Benjamin Barrett
Benjamin Barrett
In article <30F776...@gol.com> J.C. Kelly wrote:
>Benjamin Barrett wrote:
>
>> The verb form change in "kouta" or "kotta" (both are found) is ONLY for
> -u
>> verbs... Although I have never studied old Japanese, -u verbs obviously
> have<grammar stuff that is beyond me deleted>
>
I was trying to point out the problem with verbs ending in -u, but it looks
like I jumped in over my head.
I had always assumed that since verbs like ka-u and mora-u change to kaWAnai
and moraWAnai, they were originally -wu verbs. If you look at the wa-gyou
(w row) of hiragana, it's incomplete. I always had figured that the verbs
must have looked something like:
kaweba, kaweru, kawimasu, etc
a long time ago and that by the time people got around to writing these
forms, the w sound had disappeared.
If you look at a kokugo dictionary for iru or onna, you will find in fine
print after the entry wiru and wonna, indicating the phonetic change that
has happened to these. I just did the same for ka-u and found that it was
kafu, a -hu stem verb! These no longer exist, and I don't know anything
about them.
Perhaps the -hu verbs have become -u verbs. If the form
kahanai
did exist, it would make sense for it to become kawanai, because -ha and -wa
have some common history (ie sore-wa, written with a ha.)
Anybody know anything about -hu verbs?
yoroshiku
Benjamin Barrett
J.C. Kelly
> The word "akan" I believe is not a shortening of "akimasen," but "ikemasen."
> Note that there is also a form "ikan," as in "yattara ikan"; akan was
> probably developed from that for euphony.
>
In my experience, this is clearly akimasen. You can hear it when kansai-jin
doushi talk, and one is using -masu forms. I have often heard 'Sore shika
akimasen (even akimahen)' or 'yarana akimahen' type comments.
> The verb form change in "kouta" or "kotta" (both are found) is ONLY for -u
> verbs... Although I have never studied old Japanese, -u verbs obviously have<grammar stuff that is beyond me deleted>
This seems right, now that you mention it. It often happens with
nani-nani shite shimatta. It comes out shimotta. Even just the word
"Shimatta" as a sentance meaning "Now I've done it" or however you should
translate it, comes out as "Shimotta!" here. I can also think of morou for
morau.
>
> Nobody has noted the ri-adverb transformation. In general, if an adverb
> ends in -ri, a doubling of the consonant of the second occurs, and the -ri
> changes to a -shi:
>
> amari : ammashi
> yahari: yappashi (doubling an "h" causes j -> p)
> bakari: bakkashi
> sappari: sappashi (consonant is already doubled)
Another example: pittari --> pittashi
>
> How about suru and kuru, the nastiest verbs of all? I remember sitting at a
> coffee shop with a hang-over one morning and the oba-chan at the end of the
> counter said, "tenisu-o seehen ka?" and I exploded in a rapture of satori
> (and a lot of laughing by the oba-han and her cohorts). I don't know why
> no-one had pointed it out to me, because I had been in Kawachi for a while
> by then.
>
> I've heard: seehen, sen, and shiihen; for kuru, it was explained to me
> that: Kyoto-kiihen, Osaka-keehen, Kobe-kouhen. It seems to me koahen is
> fairly widespread, too.
Is it hyojun-go to say "Kon de ii" or "Sen de ii" (You don't have to come, or
don't come, and you don't have to do it, or don't do it)? These are common
expressions here, along with things like "Yaran de ii", etc.
What about "yaran-tokou", "iwantokou", etc. (Yaranai-de okou, Iwanai-de
okou). These seem like everyday expressions here. I wonder if they are
Kansai-ben or just part of a general verbal language that they never teach
you. Anyone know?
J.C. Kelly
jck...@gol.com
J.C. Kelly
Well, Benjamin -- we seem to be the only ones enjoying this topic. I hope
others are at least reading!
> >
> >In my experience, this is clearly akimasen. You can hear it when
> > kansai-jin
> >doushi talk, and one is using -masu forms. I have often heard 'Sore shika
> >akimasen (even akimahen)' or 'yarana akimahen' type comments.
>
> I think that "akimasen/akimahen" here means "won't do" and isn't related to
> "akan." If anything, I would think (IMHO) that it might reinforce the
> phonetic change from ikan to akan.
You could very well be right. My opinion (it is only that) is that it comes
from akimasen -- akanai -- akan. I wonder if there are any of those grammar/
linguistics whizzes out there who can help us with this one.
>
> >This seems right, now that you mention it. It often happens with
> >nani-nani shite shimatta. It comes out shimotta. Even just the word
> >"Shimatta" as a sentance meaning "Now I've done it" or however you should
> >translate it, comes out as "Shimotta!" here. I can also think of morou for
> >morau.
>
> The shi- for shimouta is often deleted : yatte mouta.
Or, even further shortened -- yariotta, tsukareotta, etc.
=============================================================================J.C. Kelly
Ashiya, Japan
jck...@gol.com
Gerald B Mathias
: I had always assumed that since verbs like ka-u and mora-u change to kaWAnai
: and moraWAnai, they were originally -wu verbs. If you look at the wa-gyou
: (w row) of hiragana, it's incomplete. I always had figured that the verbs
: must have looked something like:
: kaweba, kaweru, kawimasu, etc
: a long time ago and that by the time people got around to writing these
: forms, the w sound had disappeared.
: If you look at a kokugo dictionary for iru or onna, you will find in fine
: print after the entry wiru and wonna, indicating the phonetic change that
: has happened to these. I just did the same for ka-u and found that it was
: kafu, a -hu stem verb! These no longer exist, and I don't know anything
: about them.
: Perhaps the -hu verbs have become -u verbs. If the form
: kahanai
: did exist, it would make sense for it to become kawanai, because -ha and -wa
: have some common history (ie sore-wa, written with a ha.)
No need. You figured it out for yourself. There never were any true
-wu verbs, as far as spelling went, but the ancestor of "h" changed to
"w" in pronunciation between vowels. Then, as the sound of "w" was lost
before every vowel but "a," so with the old "-hu" verbs.
I know people who still write "kau" as "(kanji)hu." That's the way it
was taught when I studied Japanese in college, and much of my library has
Japanese spelled that way. (The new spelling didn't go into effect until
around 1950.)
Bart Mathias
Unknown
>Benjamin Barrett wrote:
>
>> The word "akan" I believe is not a shortening of "akimasen," but "ikemasen."
>> Note that there is also a form "ikan," as in "yattara ikan"; akan was
>> probably developed from that for euphony.
>>
>In my experience, this is clearly akimasen. You can hear it when kansai-jin
>doushi talk, and one is using -masu forms. I have often heard 'Sore shika
>akimasen (even akimahen)' or 'yarana akimahen' type comments.
Very interesting thread here. I thought I would just try to put in my
two cents in for what its worth.
Its always been my understanding that the word akan in the Kansai area
is a shortening of Akimasen but if akan is used in the Kanto area it
would be a shortening of Ikemasen.
I've always believed that Akimasen and Ikemasen have essentially the
same meaning. I could be wrong.
_____ _____
| |
| |
___| . |
john...@gol.com ____________________________________________
Benjamin Barrett
In article <30F8AE...@gol.com> J.C. Kelly wrote:
>>
>> >This seems right, now that you mention it. It often happens with
>> >nani-nani shite shimatta. It comes out shimotta. Even just the word
>> >"Shimatta" as a sentance meaning "Now I've done it" or however you
> should
>> >translate it, comes out as "Shimotta!" here. I can also think of morou
> for
>> >morau.
>>
>> The shi- for shimouta is often deleted : yatte mouta.
>
>Or, even further shortened -- yariotta, tsukareotta, etc.
Thanks for continuing on with this thread, J.C. Kansai-ites generally just
laugh whenever the subject of the dialect comes up and don't discuss it
seriously.
I have always taken that (as has been discussed here before) -haru is
sonkei-go. The typical answer is that sonkei-go is something found in
hyoujun-go. When asked what -haru is, people just go "Duh, I don't know."
Another problem with -haru is that I've been told that it is a normal aspect
of Kyouto speech, and not honorific. I would still hold that, at least in
Osaka, -haru is honorific (sonkei-go).
Parallelling this, then, is what I've always taken as kenson-go (humble),
which JC has written as being shortened forms of shimatta. Most often,
words like "yariouta" are used in the third person, kind of jokingly.
Note, though, that words such as moosu, which are now strictly first person
kenson-go, were used in older times to refer to people lower than oneself
(ie: moose! nani-o mooshita-nka?)
I have heard older people use the -outa form in the first person, and
believe it's a quickly dying (or dead) form of kenson-go, which is has a
simple equivalent in the newer hyoujun-go: iru (neutral) -> oru (humble).
dou omoimakka?
yoroshiku
Benjamin Barrett
J.C. Kelly
>
> In article <30F8AE...@gol.com> J.C. Kelly wrote:
> >>
> >> >This seems right, now that you mention it. It often happens with
> >> >nani-nani shite shimatta. It comes out shimotta. Even just the word
> >> >"Shimatta" as a sentance meaning "Now I've done it" or however you
> > should
> >> >translate it, comes out as "Shimotta!" here. I can also think of morou
> > for
> >> >morau.
> >>
> >> The shi- for shimouta is often deleted : yatte mouta.
> >
> >Or, even further shortened -- yariotta, tsukareotta, etc.
>
> Thanks for continuing on with this thread, J.C. Kansai-ites generally just
> laugh whenever the subject of the dialect comes up and don't discuss it
> seriously.
Thank you. This is fun for me -- I am not taking it 'seriously' either. :-)
>
> I have always taken that (as has been discussed here before) -haru is
> sonkei-go. The typical answer is that sonkei-go is something found in
> hyoujun-go. When asked what -haru is, people just go "Duh, I don't know."
>
Sometimes when they talk about Kansai-ben on tv, they mention this subject.
Once I saw a program where they took typical sonkei-go sentances and tried to
say them in Kansai-ben. Seemed a little 'muri-yari' to me, but the point that
there are different ways to express respect was well taken.
> Another problem with -haru is that I've been told that it is a normal aspect
> of Kyouto speech, and not honorific. I would still hold that, at least in
> Osaka, -haru is honorific (sonkei-go).
> I hate to admit it, but this is a little beyond me. I constantly hear people
saying xx-haru, so I assume that it is a pretty normal part of speech. BUT, I
have never noticed someone using it in the first person, so I have always
felt that it is a kind of sonkei-go. I am not really sure what you mean by
'normal' above, but it is my interpretation that it is sonkei-go. For
example, if you ask will he (or you) go to the party? You could say
"Ikiharimasu-ka?". But if asked will you go to the party, you wouldn't say
"Um, ikiharu yo." On the other hand, you could use "Ikimasu" or "Iku" in both
situations, so this leads to my feeling that the former is sonkei-go.
> Parallelling this, then, is what I've always taken as kenson-go (humble),
> which JC has written as being shortened forms of shimatta. Most often,
> words like "yariouta" are used in the third person, kind of jokingly.
> Hmmm, interesting. I would agree that I mostly hear these kind of forms in a
joking situation, but in my experience, they can be used for first person
expressions -- particulary 'Tsukareotta!' comes to mind as something I hear
every once in a while for "I'm bushed!".
> Note, though, that words such as moosu, which are now strictly first person
> kenson-go, were used in older times to refer to people lower than oneself
> (ie: moose! nani-o mooshita-nka?)
>
Yes -- just watch a jidai-geki. I am currently watching the NHK Sunday night
drama about Hideyoshi, and this comes out all the time.
> I have heard older people use the -outa form in the first person, and
> believe it's a quickly dying (or dead) form of kenson-go, which is has a
> simple equivalent in the newer hyoujun-go: iru (neutral) -> oru (humble).
>
> dou omoimakka?
> This could be. I never thought of this being otta from oru, but it makes
sense. I think that the reason that this form is often used semi-jokingly is
that it does seem kind of 'old'. You can hear people saying "Nan ja!" or
"Atsui no-", which sound very similar to me (that is, kind of ojiisan
Japanese, thrown in the conversation to add some flavor).
> yoroshiku
> Benjamin Barrett
--
==========================================================================
J.C. Kelly
Ashiya, Japan
jck...@gol.com
NAKANO Yasuaki
>I had always assumed that since verbs like ka-u and mora-u change to kaWAnai
>and moraWAnai, they were originally -wu verbs. If you look at the wa-gyou
>(w row) of hiragana, it's incomplete. I always had figured that the verbs
>must have looked something like:
>kaweba, kaweru, kawimasu, etc
>a long time ago and that by the time people got around to writing these
>forms, the w sound had disappeared.
If you are talking about verbs "kau (to buy)" and "morau (to be given)",
they were not "wa-gyou" verbs, but "ha-gyou" ones in the literary form.
There were no "wa-gyou" 4-dan verb in modern nor classic Japanese. Those
which conjugate in "wa-a gyou, 5-dan" in the current grammar were
"ha-gyou, 4-dan" verbs before WW-II. They were "ha-gyou, 4-dan" verbs in
the classic grammar.
For example, the conjugation of "kau" now, WW-II and in classic were:
Now: kawa-nai, kai-masu, kau, kau toki, kae-ba, kae.
Before WW-II: kaha-nai, kahi-masu, kahu, kahu toki, kahe-ba, kahe.
Classic: kaha-zu, kahi-tari, kahu, kahu toki, kahe-ba, kahe.
Please note that the change in modern grammar after WW-II is caused only by
the spelling system, while differece between modern and classic grammars is
structural. For example, two "kahe-ba" in the above have different meaning.
>If you look at a kokugo dictionary for iru or onna, you will find in fine
>print after the entry wiru and wonna, indicating the phonetic change that
>has happened to these. I just did the same for ka-u and found that it was
>kafu, a -hu stem verb! These no longer exist, and I don't know anything
>about them.
So, the verb "kau" which you supposed was "wa-gyou" verb is just the same
"kafu" you have found in the dictionary.
>Perhaps the -hu verbs have become -u verbs. If the form
>kahanai
>did exist, it would make sense for it to become kawanai, because -ha and -wa
>have some common history (ie sore-wa, written with a ha.)
As you noticed, ancient "ha, hi, hu, he, ho" changed to "wa, i, u, e, o"
phonetically in some cases, but not always.
Yasuaki Nakano
Reg Macdonald
: Benjamin Barrett wrote:
: Well, Benjamin -- we seem to be the only ones enjoying this topic. I hope
: others are at least reading!
: > >
: > >In my experience, this is clearly akimasen. You can hear it when
: > > kansai-jin
: > >doushi talk, and one is using -masu forms. I have often heard 'Sore shika
: > >akimasen (even akimahen)' or 'yarana akimahen' type comments.
: >
: > I think that "akimasen/akimahen" here means "won't do" and isn't related to
: > "akan." If anything, I would think (IMHO) that it might reinforce the
: > phonetic change from ikan to akan.
: You could very well be right. My opinion (it is only that) is that it comes
: from akimasen -- akanai -- akan. I wonder if there are any of those grammar/
: linguistics whizzes out there who can help us with this one.
I agree here... I figure akan must be an abbrevtiation of akimahen; see:
Kansai beer commercial last year for "Nama
Icchou"..."Akimahen...Akimahen...A~KIMASEN???!!! CHAN-CHAN-CHANCH-CHAN~~"
Perhps you had to be there. Anyways, Akan and akimahen can both be used
to say "ya' can't do it. (or, in the case of beer, can't open it!)
: >
: > >This seems right, now that you mention it. It often happens with
: > >nani-nani shite shimatta. It comes out shimotta. Even just the word
: > >"Shimatta" as a sentance meaning "Now I've done it" or however you should
: > >translate it, comes out as "Shimotta!" here. I can also think of morou for
: > >morau.
: >
: > The shi- for shimouta is often deleted : yatte mouta.
That can mean yatte moratta, , too, not just yatte shimatta. tatoeba:
Iroiro yuute moute, ookini...vs...kaze hiite moute, choushi waru. (my
present state)
How about Kansai keigo? Now that can get confusing. (and often comical)
The use of "hatta" and where, when, at which part of the verb to stick it
in, can be tough...I often screw up! A guy I didn't know at university
once asked me after class, "shukudai ha mou owarahatta desu ka?", in his
most polite Japanese. It confused him when I broke out laughing and
asked him to repeat this painful version of finished. Another time, the
3-year old daughter of my kempo sensei said to some guests, "Okasan
kiharu." ... well-raised kid, respectful at 3!
Sometimes there seem to be overlaps between polite hyoujungo and normal
Oska-ben. You can often bullshit your way through a polite conversation
by sticking "rare" into all the verbs referring to your conversation
partner..."Sensei oraremasu deshou ka? Ikaremasu ka? etc..." but in
Osaka I've often heard the same verb form used everyday to express
inability. "Kono kutsu ha sakki koota toko ya...iman toko, kitsukute
arukarahen!" I even heard "arahen" to mean arimasen once...but maybe
that was more a matter of individual speech patterns than of osaka-ben.
Honnara,
Reg.
C.J. Savoie
> What about "yaran-tokou", "iwantokou", etc. (Yaranai-de okou, Iwanai-de
> okou). These seem like everyday expressions here. I wonder if they are
> Kansai-ben or just part of a general verbal language that they never teach
> you. Anyone know?
No, these are not standard conjugations, but they exist throughout *western*
Japan. They are very prominent (more so?) here in Kyushu.
CJS
Benjamin Barrett
In article <4dkv6n$q...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> Reg Macdonald wrote:
>Date: 18 Jan 1996 08:08:55 GMT
>From: r...@unixg.ubc.ca (Reg Macdonald)
>Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
>Subject: Re: Kansai Dialect-here are a few lessons
>My opinion (it is only that) is that it
> comes
>: from akimasen -- akanai -- akan. I wonder if there are any of those gramm
>ar/
>: linguistics whizzes out there who can help us with this one.
>
>I agree here... I figure akan must be an abbrevtiation of akimahen; see:
>Kansai beer commercial last year for "Nama
>Icchou"..."Akimahen...Akimahen...A~KIMASEN???!!! CHAN-CHAN-CHANCH-CHAN~~"
>Perhps you had to be there. Anyways, Akan and akimahen can both be used
>to say "ya' can't do it. (or, in the case of beer, can't open it!)
[snip] [concerning mouta]
>That can mean yatte moratta, , too, not just yatte shimatta. tatoeba:
>Iroiro yuute moute, ookini...vs...kaze hiite moute, choushi waru. (my
>present state)
I think the accent changes here, though. For shimatta (mouta) is MO~Uta, but
for moratta (mouta) is MOUta. (? Maybe I'm dreaming here)?
>
>How about Kansai keigo? Now that can get confusing. (and often comical)
>The use of "hatta" and where, when, at which part of the verb to stick it
>in, can be tough...I often screw up! A guy I didn't know at university
>once asked me after class, "shukudai ha mou owarahatta desu ka?", in his
>most polite Japanese. It confused him when I broke out laughing and
>asked him to repeat this painful version of finished. Another time, the
>3-year old daughter of my kempo sensei said to some guests, "Okasan
>kiharu." ... well-raised kid, respectful at 3!
>
>Sometimes there seem to be overlaps between polite hyoujungo and normal
>Oska-ben. You can often bullshit your way through a polite conversation
>by sticking "rare" into all the verbs referring to your conversation
>partner..."Sensei oraremasu deshou ka? Ikaremasu ka? etc..." but in
>Osaka I've often heard the same verb form used everyday to express
>inability. "Kono kutsu ha sakki koota toko ya...iman toko, kitsukute
>arukarahen!" I even heard "arahen" to mean arimasen once...but maybe
>that was more a matter of individual speech patterns than of osaka-ben.
keigo is the easiest! It requires, like you say here, keeping track of all
the extra syllables, but the -nai form is used with just a -haru added:
ikaharu, owaraharu, etc. The -rare is standard Japanese, but common enough
in Osaka. I get the feeling, though, that -rare and -haru and partly used
out of laziness, because they're so easy to use.
I thought for about five years that aru->arahen, but I've been told
aru->arehen. Can anyone confirm this? To my ears, the subtle vowel change
is more or less lost.
Another good one that hit me the other day is adverbs ending in -ku (formed
from adjectives: utsukushii->utsukushiku). The -ku is dropped and the
final vowel exaggerated. you shita na~! (yoku shita-ne!) I think this you
takes on a great deal more nuance than the yoku, though, meaning something
good, or cynically, something bad.
Benjamin Barrett
In article <4drnur$l...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> Reg Macdonald wrote:
>: Another good one that hit me the other day is adverbs ending in -ku
> (formed
>: from adjectives: utsukushii->utsukushiku). The -ku is dropped and the
>: final vowel exaggerated. you shita na~! (yoku shita-ne!) I think this
> you
>: takes on a great deal more nuance than the yoku, though, meaning
> something
>: good, or cynically, something bad.
>
>Sometimes you can drop the "i" off the end of an adjective , too, I
>think. Kimochi waru~, Kishou waru~, sabu sabu (kyou canada ha sabu...)
>Nemuta, Ita !, Atsu! etc...
>Maybe it's not only adverbs with "ku", but generally adj/adv based on "i"
>adjectives.
I meant for those to be the same. I don't believe any -ku adverbs exist
that don't come from an i-adjective. keiyou-doushi would result in -ni for
the adverb form (shizuka da -> shizuka-ni).
kanpai (=bad use of translation for Cheers!)
Benjamin Barrett
Reg Macdonald
: In article <4dkv6n$q...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> Reg Macdonald wrote:
: >Date: 18 Jan 1996 08:08:55 GMT
: >From: r...@unixg.ubc.ca (Reg Macdonald)
: >Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
: >Subject: Re: Kansai Dialect-here are a few lessons
: >My opinion (it is only that) is that it
: >Kansai beer commercial last year for "Nama
: >Icchou"..."Akimahen...Akimahen...A~KIMASEN???!!! CHAN-CHAN-CHANCH-CHAN~~"
: >Perhps you had to be there. Anyways, Akan and akimahen can both be used
: >to say "ya' can't do it. (or, in the case of beer, can't open it!)
Does anybody actually know what Cm I'm talking about here? Otherwise the
"CHAN-CHAN" part sounds pretty crazy...
: I think the accent changes here, though. For shimatta (mouta) is MO~Uta, but
: for moratta (mouta) is MOUta. (? Maybe I'm dreaming here)?
That's amazing. Sonna komakai toko, sonna bimyou na chigai ga
kikitoretara...taishita monya! I wonder if you're right...kondo Kansai
no hito ni attara yo~~~~u kiite mimasu wa. I'll ask my girlfriend about
it, too...her ambition is to teach Kansai-ben around the world (she's
from Kyoto), so she ought to know about this kind of stuff. Then again,
it might be a purely Osaka phenomenon...even Kyoto-born Keiko finds
communicating with my old Kawachi homestay grandma challenging! Maybe I
can get Keiko to get into this thread...
: >3-year old daughter of my kempo sensei said to some guests, "Okasan
: >kiharu." ... well-raised kid, respectful at 3!
: keigo is the easiest! It requires, like you say here, keeping track of all
: the extra syllables, but the -nai form is used with just a -haru added:
: ikaharu, owaraharu, etc. The -rare is standard Japanese, but common enough
: in Osaka. I get the feeling, though, that -rare and -haru and partly used
: out of laziness, because they're so easy to use.
I suspect the same thing...I think young Japanese bullshit there way
through polite conversations by tacking "rare" and "haru" onto every verb
in sight. Actually, I think you could even call it the evolution of
keigo, since the younger generation is the one that is altering spoken
honorifics...society's changing...you can say "inu ni esa wo ageru"
without people looking at you strangely...seikatsu-jou no jouge-kankei ga
kuzuretsutsu aru ka mo...
: Another good one that hit me the other day is adverbs ending in -ku (formed
: from adjectives: utsukushii->utsukushiku). The -ku is dropped and the
: final vowel exaggerated. you shita na~! (yoku shita-ne!) I think this you
: takes on a great deal more nuance than the yoku, though, meaning something
: good, or cynically, something bad.
Sometimes you can drop the "i" off the end of an adjective , too, I
think. Kimochi waru~, Kishou waru~, sabu sabu (kyou canada ha sabu...)
Nemuta, Ita !, Atsu! etc...
Maybe it's not only adverbs with "ku", but generally adj/adv based on "i"
adjectives.
Honnara,
Reg.
Benjamin Barrett
In article <4dsq8t$l...@gol2.gol.com> J.C. Kelly wrote:
>xx-haru isn't used by replaceing xx-nai. It replaces xx-masu. For
>example, ikiharu, owariharu, kiharu (not koharu!), yomiharu, etc.
I'm not going to put the whole series of quotes in. I believe you're
referring to a section where arahen had been talked about, next to a -haru
section. I believe the author intended them to be different.
Of course, ikaharahen would be the negation of the keigo of iku.
>
>I am not sure if -rareru is or should be disparaged as a form of
>sonkeigo. Could others comment on this? In my experience it is a
>normal, acceptable way to say something in sonkeigo. I wonder why both
>Ben and Reg seem to be saying that it is a 'bullshit' kind of keigo.
I believe I've been told that -rare, with its four different meanings, is
not considered "correct" keigo. For the verb suwaru, o-suwari-ni nararemasu
should be used rather than suwarareru; especially younger people like the
-rare, though, because it's easy to use.
>>I thought for about five years that aru->arahen, but I've been told
>>aru->arehen. Can anyone confirm this? To my ears, the subtle vowel
> change
>>is more or less lost.
>
>Grammar is far from my strong point, but I believe this comes from the
>form arazu, or arazu ni, which must be old, old Japanese. For example,
>you can say "Sou iwazu ni tabenasai" ("Just eat it, without saying
>(complaints)"). In kansai-ben, you could say "Sou iwahen de
>tabenasai". Just like there is taberu, tabezu, tabehen, there is aru,
>arazu, arahen.
What I'm trying to say here is that I don't believe the form "arahen"
exists; that it is arehen.
>
>>Another good one that hit me the other day is adverbs ending in -ku
> (formed
>>from adjectives: utsukushii->utsukushiku). The -ku is dropped and the
>>final vowel exaggerated. you shita na~! (yoku shita-ne!) I think this
> you
>>takes on a great deal more nuance than the yoku, though, meaning
> something
>>good, or cynically, something bad.
Another feature about this that is getting lost is that the form without the
-ku follows the polite form of adjectives in hyoujungo:
hayoo ikou! (ohayoo gozaimasu)
samuu naa (osamuu gozaimasu)
Nevertheless, as in hyoujungo, these forms are rapidly being lost. Today,
the vowel is just lengthened. Another note: -te can be added to these
adverbs/
>On the other hand, it is very interesting that -ku pops up where it
>shouldn't. Somehow the word 'kirei' (pretty/clean) gets this ku added
>to the end of it: kireiku-nai, kireiku-natta, kirei-katta, etc.
>
>I am not sure if this is "true" Kansai-ben, or more appropriately
>slang. Anyone have thoughts on this?
kirei can be used as an adjective in Kansai:
sono heya wa kirekatta yo.
But not as an adverb:
*kireku see-ya!
Benjamin Barrett
J.C. Kelly
>In article <4dkv6n$q...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> Reg Macdonald wrote:
<snip>
>>
>>Sometimes there seem to be overlaps between polite hyoujungo and normal
>>Oska-ben. You can often bullshit your way through a polite conversation
>>by sticking "rare" into all the verbs referring to your conversation
>>partner..."Sensei oraremasu deshou ka? Ikaremasu ka? etc..." but in
>>Osaka I've often heard the same verb form used everyday to express
>>inability. "Kono kutsu ha sakki koota toko ya...iman toko, kitsukute
>>arukarahen!" I even heard "arahen" to mean arimasen once...but maybe
>>that was more a matter of individual speech patterns than of osaka-ben.
>keigo is the easiest! It requires, like you say here, keeping track of all
>the extra syllables, but the -nai form is used with just a -haru added:
>ikaharu, owaraharu, etc. The -rare is standard Japanese, but common enough
>in Osaka. I get the feeling, though, that -rare and -haru and partly used
>out of laziness, because they're so easy to use.
I think my server must be slow. I am sorry if there have already been
replies to this that make my response moot.
xx-haru isn't used by replaceing xx-nai. It replaces xx-masu. For
example, ikiharu, owariharu, kiharu (not koharu!), yomiharu, etc.
I am not sure if -rareru is or should be disparaged as a form of
sonkeigo. Could others comment on this? In my experience it is a
normal, acceptable way to say something in sonkeigo. I wonder why both
Ben and Reg seem to be saying that it is a 'bullshit' kind of keigo.
>I thought for about five years that aru->arahen, but I've been told
>aru->arehen. Can anyone confirm this? To my ears, the subtle vowel change
>is more or less lost.
Grammar is far from my strong point, but I believe this comes from the
form arazu, or arazu ni, which must be old, old Japanese. For example,
you can say "Sou iwazu ni tabenasai" ("Just eat it, without saying
(complaints)"). In kansai-ben, you could say "Sou iwahen de
tabenasai". Just like there is taberu, tabezu, tabehen, there is aru,
arazu, arahen.
One of the Manzai combi Downtown's most popular shows is "Gaki-tsukai
ja arahen".
>Another good one that hit me the other day is adverbs ending in -ku (formed
>from adjectives: utsukushii->utsukushiku). The -ku is dropped and the
>final vowel exaggerated. you shita na~! (yoku shita-ne!) I think this you
>takes on a great deal more nuance than the yoku, though, meaning something
>good, or cynically, something bad.
A _very_ common expression "You yuu wa", means something like 'how
dare you say that', or 'I can't believe you'd say something like
that'. I often hear collegues say things like 'yarita-nai'
(yaritaku-nai) or 'ikita-nai' (ikitaku-nai).
On the other hand, it is very interesting that -ku pops up where it
shouldn't. Somehow the word 'kirei' (pretty/clean) gets this ku added
to the end of it: kireiku-nai, kireiku-natta, kirei-katta, etc.
I am not sure if this is "true" Kansai-ben, or more appropriately
slang. Anyone have thoughts on this?
=====================================================================
J.C. Kelly 会者定離
Ashiya, Japan
jck...@gol.com
Chuck Douglas
>Kansai beer commercial last year for "Nama
>Icchou"..."Akimahen...Akimahen...A~KIMASEN???!!! CHAN-CHAN-CHANCH-CHAN~~"
>Perhps you had to be there. Anyways, Akan and akimahen can both be used
>to say "ya' can't do it. (or, in the case of beer, can't open it!)
: Does anybody actually know what Cm I'm talking about here? Otherwise the
: "CHAN-CHAN" part sounds pretty crazy...
I recognise the CM. However, I was certain that after the Akimahen, the
guy with the glasses jumps up and says "Akimase!!" as in, 'I am gonna
open this!' (Sort of a play on words.) I could be hearing deficient, though.
It has been known to happen.
Benjamin Barrett
In article <4dv5dk$7...@keknews.kek.jp> Ben Bullock wrote:
>I can't speak for "sappashi" or "ammashi" but "yappashi" and
>"bakkashi" certainly aren't part of Kansai dialect.
>
>> Another example: pittari --> pittashi
>
I'm not sure why they fail, but I use all of the above with my Kansai, and
other, friends. My Kansai friends use them all the time. Perhaps you mean
they are part of a wider dialect, such as Kinki?
yoroshiku
Benjamin Barrett
J.C. Kelly
>"J.C. Kelly" (jck...@gol.com) wrote:
>> Benjamin Barrett wrote:
>> > Nobody has noted the ri-adverb transformation. In general, if an adverb
>> > ends in -ri, a doubling of the consonant of the second occurs, and the -ri
>> > changes to a -shi:
>> >
>> > amari : ammashi
>> > yahari: yappashi (doubling an "h" causes j -> p)
>> > bakari: bakkashi
>> > sappari: sappashi (consonant is already doubled)
>I can't speak for "sappashi" or "ammashi" but "yappashi" and
>"bakkashi" certainly aren't part of Kansai dialect.
>> Another example: pittari --> pittashi
>This one fails as well.
Ben,
Just to clarify -- Do you mean that these words are part of Hyoujungo,
and therefore not Kansai-ben, or do you mean that these words aren't
used in the Kansai at all? (or that they don't exist?)
Since I don't have any experience living in Kanto, I don't know if
these words are common there or not. But they are certainly alive and
kicking here!
Ben Bullock
> I have always taken that (as has been discussed here before) -haru is
> sonkei-go. The typical answer is that sonkei-go is something found in
> hyoujun-go. When asked what -haru is, people just go "Duh, I don't know."
It is a corruption of "nasaru".
Reg Macdonald
: Benjamin Barrett (Gog...@gnn.com) wrote:
: > I have always taken that (as has been discussed here before) -haru is
: > sonkei-go. The typical answer is that sonkei-go is something found in
: > hyoujun-go. When asked what -haru is, people just go "Duh, I don't know."
: It is a corruption of "nasaru".
REALLY??!!!
Wow...sudden comprehension. Satori hiraita...
But even if haru is short for nasaru, it's used improperly...you couldn't
say "owara-nasaru", could you?
Haru=nasaru...food for thought...
Honnara,
Reg.
Ben Bullock
> > Note that there is also a form "ikan," as in "yattara ikan"; akan was
> > probably developed from that for euphony.
> In my experience, this is clearly akimasen. You can hear it when kansai-jin
> doushi talk, and one is using -masu forms. I have often heard 'Sore shika
> akimasen (even akimahen)' or 'yarana akimahen' type comments.
I guess most people would say it is either a shortening of "akanu" or
"ikanu".
> > Nobody has noted the ri-adverb transformation. In general, if an adverb
> > ends in -ri, a doubling of the consonant of the second occurs, and the -ri
> > changes to a -shi:
> >
> > amari : ammashi
> > yahari: yappashi (doubling an "h" causes j -> p)
> > bakari: bakkashi
> > sappari: sappashi (consonant is already doubled)
I can't speak for "sappashi" or "ammashi" but "yappashi" and
"bakkashi" certainly aren't part of Kansai dialect.
> Another example: pittari --> pittashi
This one fails as well.
--
Reg Macdonald
: > > Nobody has noted the ri-adverb transformation. In general, if an adverb
: > > ends in -ri, a doubling of the consonant of the second occurs, and the -ri
: > > changes to a -shi:
: > >
: > > amari : ammashi
: > > yahari: yappashi (doubling an "h" causes j -> p)
: > > bakari: bakkashi
: > > sappari: sappashi (consonant is already doubled)
: I can't speak for "sappashi" or "ammashi" but "yappashi" and
: "bakkashi" certainly aren't part of Kansai dialect.
: > Another example: pittari --> pittashi
: This one fails as well.
Actually, my vote goes to Mr.Barrett...I've heard and used ammashi,
sappashi, and yappashi in the Kansai. When you say they "aren't part of
the Kansai dialect", does that mean that they use these words in Tokyo
and Tsukuba, too? I'm curious, 'cuz I've never spent much time in the
Kanto area. But in the Kansai, at least, I can back up the ri--shi
quotes 100%. Usage of the -shi part might be somehow related to amounts
of alcohol consumed by the speaker, leading to slurred speech and
impaired grammar, but dat's beshide de point.
Honnara,
Reg.
Ben Bullock
> Btw, which manga do you read that have Kansai-ben in them? Most of the
> ones I read do not (or a small smattering of it if a character is supposed
> to be from the area.)
There are quite a few around. The ones I can think of right now are
"jarinko chie", and "naniwa kin'yuudou".
Don Kirkman
>Actually, my vote goes to Mr.Barrett...I've heard and used ammashi,
>sappashi, and yappashi in the Kansai. When you say they "aren't part of
>the Kansai dialect", does that mean that they use these words in Tokyo
>and Tsukuba, too? I'm curious, 'cuz I've never spent much time in the
>Kanto area.
In Kanto ~35 years ago, I heard yappashi to the extent there was a
language school joke about it:
"Sensei, "yahari" to "yappari" to "yappashi" ga aru kedo, dore ga ii 'n
desu ka?"
"Yappashi, yahari wa, yappari yori ii 'n desu yo."
"Ammashi" and "sappashi" don't rouse the same memories; probably less
common at the times and places I frequented.
---
Don Kirkman
If I had a life I'd be having a mid-life crisis
Ben Bullock
Benjamin Barrett
In article <4e59j5$c...@keknews.kek.jp> Ben Bullock wrote:
>Reg Macdonald (r...@unixg.ubc.ca) wrote:
>
>> Actually, my vote goes to Mr.Barrett...I've heard and used ammashi,
>> sappashi, and yappashi in the Kansai. When you say they "aren't part of
>> the Kansai dialect", does that mean that they use these words in Tokyo
>> and Tsukuba, too? I'm curious, 'cuz I've never spent much time in the
>> Kanto area.
>
>point.
I think it strengthens his point that he has HEARD them. Humans have an
innate ability to mimic words and speech they hear. Hence, if Mr MacDonald
is using it, it is a possible sign that it's being used frequently.
>Further, just because you don't know whether a word is used outside
>some geographical area, it is absurd speculation to label it as being
>part of that region's dialect. You are not alone in doing this
>however: there is a book by one Peter Tse that labels things like
>"kakko warui" and many other common Japanese phrases as being part of
>"Kansai dialect". This is clearly nonsense, and the end product of
>writing a book when he does not know what he is talking about.
This book sounds interesting. It has been noted by many Kansai/Shikoku
friends of mine that even though a word might be hyoujungo in form, a
particular use/frequency/way of using it might be dialectical.
Hence, "samui samui," while in and of itself is not Kansai, but Kanto
(hyoujungo), the repitition is clearly one of Kansai (and other dialectical
areas that have such a feature). Such repitition is easily verified in
Kansai, though generally its natives drop the -i at the end.
>
>> Usage of the -shi part might be somehow related to amounts of
>> alcohol consumed by the speaker
>
>I've tried to be diplomatic so far but this is certainly nonsense.
Obviously Mr Bullock has no sense of humor.
yoroshiku
Benjamin Barrett
Ben Bullock
> Sometimes there seem to be overlaps between polite hyoujungo and normal
> Oska-ben. You can often bullshit your way through a polite conversation
> by sticking "rare" into all the verbs referring to your conversation
> partner..."Sensei oraremasu deshou ka? Ikaremasu ka? etc..." but in
> Osaka I've often heard the same verb form used everyday to express
> inability.
Reg and others, can I ask you to try sticking to learning standard
Japanese before you try to tell us what is and isn't Kansai dialect.
The same goes for several other people writing on this thread,
e.g. the "yappashi" comments, the discussions about "haru", and so
forth. Please try to refrain from attempting to teach the rest of us
things that you are not sure of yourself. Putting things that are
wrong here could be misleading to others. Also it means time has to
be spent correcting misapprehensions. Thanks very much.
Now, -rare- is standard Japanese keigo, and -rare- is a standard
Japanese potential form. Please go and refer to a book for learning
Japanese, rather than continue this misinformed discussion about
-rare- keigo. Thanks very much for your consideration.
Ben Bullock
> Actually, my vote goes to Mr.Barrett...I've heard and used ammashi,
> sappashi, and yappashi in the Kansai. When you say they "aren't part of
> the Kansai dialect", does that mean that they use these words in Tokyo
> and Tsukuba, too? I'm curious, 'cuz I've never spent much time in the
> Kanto area.
I think whether you yourself have used them is really beside the
point. I can quote many expressions that I have used that no Japanese
person would ever say. Incidentally this reminds me of reading Jack
Seward's rather odd books about learning Japanese where he tells you
that "Japanese people do X" where X is some unlikely thing, and then
gives an illustrative example consisting of what he himself did.
Further, just because you don't know whether a word is used outside
some geographical area, it is absurd speculation to label it as being
part of that region's dialect. You are not alone in doing this
however: there is a book by one Peter Tse that labels things like
"kakko warui" and many other common Japanese phrases as being part of
"Kansai dialect". This is clearly nonsense, and the end product of
writing a book when he does not know what he is talking about.
> Usage of the -shi part might be somehow related to amounts of
> alcohol consumed by the speaker
I've tried to be diplomatic so far but this is certainly nonsense.
--
Ben Bullock
>
> In article <4dv5dk$7...@keknews.kek.jp> Ben Bullock wrote:
> >"bakkashi" certainly aren't part of Kansai dialect.
> >
> >> Another example: pittari --> pittashi
> >
> >This one fails as well.
> other, friends.
This is what you call evidence that they are part of Kansai dialect?
Think about this statement very carefully and what it implies.
> My Kansai friends use them all the time.
Again, is this really evidence that they are part of a dialect?
> Perhaps you mean they are part of a wider dialect, such as Kinki?
No, I mean they are not part of any dialect. Do you know what
geographical region the word Kinki means, by the way?
Reg Macdonald
: Reg Macdonald (r...@unixg.ubc.ca) wrote:
: > Sometimes there seem to be overlaps between polite hyoujungo and normal
: > Oska-ben. You can often bullshit your way through a polite conversation
: > by sticking "rare" into all the verbs referring to your conversation
: > partner..."Sensei oraremasu deshou ka? Ikaremasu ka? etc..." but in
: > Osaka I've often heard the same verb form used everyday to express
: > inability.
: Reg and others, can I ask you to try sticking to learning standard
: Japanese before you try to tell us what is and isn't Kansai dialect.
: The same goes for several other people writing on this thread,
: e.g. the "yappashi" comments, the discussions about "haru", and so
: forth. Please try to refrain from attempting to teach the rest of us
: things that you are not sure of yourself. Putting things that are
: wrong here could be misleading to others. Also it means time has to
: be spent correcting misapprehensions. Thanks very much.
Are you married to a Japanese woman?
Lighten up.
Honnara,
Reg.
Benjamin Barrett
In article <4e8ahj$e...@keknews.kek.jp> Ben Bullock wrote:
>Benjamin Barrett (Gog...@gnn.com) wrote:
>>
>> In article <4dv5dk$7...@keknews.kek.jp> Ben Bullock wrote:
>> >I can't speak for "sappashi" or "ammashi" but "yappashi" and
>> >"bakkashi" certainly aren't part of Kansai dialect.
>> >
>> >> Another example: pittari --> pittashi
>> >
>> >This one fails as well.
[snip]
> I mean they are not part of any dialect. Do you know what
>geographical region the word Kinki means, by the way?
>
Yes. Are these words simply colloquialisms then? Do you have a point?
What is it?
yoroshiku
Benjamin Barrett
Benjamin Barrett
>Ben Bullock (b...@theory4.kek.jp) wrote:
I don't understand how you expect non-native Japanese who live in the Kansai
area to communicate with the native Japanese who live there. Not attempting
to learn the local dialect is social suicide. Imagine trying to live in
Scotland with a southern Louisiana accent! Not only do people not
understand you, you can't understand them.
As the issues of dialect are not dealt with in texts, people are dealing
with them in this forum. If you aren't interested (though your snide way of
saying "'yappashi' comments" seems to indicate that you feel humiliated
rather than enlightened on your earlier mistaken remarks), don't look at
articles that have subject headings dealing with Kansai! Is it that hard?
And again, it seems to be YOU who are not sure of yourself. Everyone else
is just trying to share notes.
And as Reg says, lighten up.
Benjamin Barrett
PS Thank you for changing your attitude from "I have to correct you" to
"time has to be spent correcting." That, at least, IS appreciated.
John Reeves
are so few resources on Kansai and other dialects. I have taken nothing at
face
value and have checked everything I've read here against the intuitions of
Kansai-ben speaking friends (and still try to keep an open mind). As a result
of my many questions, one of my friends has begun speaking to me exclusively in
Kansai-ben, has pointed out a few manga written in Kansai-ben, and has
"translated" several stories from Kantoh-ben into Kansai-ben. I have since
found that several people I know are from the Kansai area (I refuse to ask
where
people are from, I think it's a boring, cliched, annoying question) and my
comprehension of conversations not involving me (and consequently not brought
down to my level) has gone from about 20% to about 70%.
So... less bickering and more discussion please. Back up criticisms with some
evidence or else ask for evidence for claims you think are dubious.
Some of us are at least reading.
john
Reg Macdonald
: I for one have appreciated this thread until this point, especially since there
: are so few resources on Kansai and other dialects. I have taken nothing at
: face
: value and have checked everything I've read here against the intuitions of
: So... less bickering and more discussion please. Back up criticisms with some
: evidence or else ask for evidence for claims you think are dubious.
Good idea.
QUESTION :
I'm wondering if the following words are also used in the Kanto
or other areas in Japan outside of the Kansai:
charinko / chari : bicycle
gentsuki-charinko / genchari : moped
okasan-no-charinko / mamachari : mom's bike (the ones with the
basket and the bell that I look like an idiot riding...)
hokasu : throw out (suteru)
horu : throw out (")
horu-mon : yakiniku, where you can eat everything from the tongue
to the intestinal villi of the cow (yumm! Served raw and cold...uma~!)
If they don't use these words outside the Kansai, then what do
they say? I mean colloquial-wise...I realise that technically charinko
would be "jitensha" in hyoujungo, but that's no fun at all. Real-life,
in-yer-face, on-de-street slang, or at least well used conversational
vocabulary is what I'm searching for here.
How about:
Dokan ka ware~! : Get outta the way!!
Jama nanka boke! : (ditto)
Shibaittaro ka ! (more or less ditto)
People often say that Kansai-ben is rougher than "normal" Japanese...do
people in the Kanto use the same expressions when they're pissed and
you're in the way, or do they have more refined, hyoujungo way, like
maybe "Suimasen ga, sukoshi ha doitte itadakemassen deshou ka? Chotto
jama nan desu kara..."?? or in Osaka, "DOKE! JAMA YA!"
I'm about to move into a shared apartment over here (in Vancouver, The
Great White North) with a guy from Tokyo, so I need to know these kinds
of words... (just in case he tries to get me to eat natto or something...)
Honnara,
Reg.
Benjamin Barrett
In article <4eki9d$3...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> Reg Macdonald wrote:
> horu-mon : yakiniku, where you can eat everything from the tongue
>to the intestinal villi of the cow (yumm! Served raw and cold...uma~!)
>
I'm pretty sure horumon is safe. It's a medical borrowing from the German
Hormon; I think that's where the food comes from too. What I don't
understand is whether there's a difference in usage between horumon(yaki)
and naizou.
I've always been curious about throw away and put away. I've been told:
put away: naosu (Kansai) katadukeru (Kantou)
throw away: hokasu (Kansai) suteru (Kantou)
The joke I heard was that if you handed a Kantou-ite a radio and told
him/her to put it away, s/he would wonder what was the matter with it.
I've heard that naosu is used in some dialect (mid-Kyuushuu?) for throw
away. This rang a bell with me, as we say "file it (in the circular file)"
in English.
yoroshiku
Benjamin Barrett
Chuck Douglas
: QUESTION :
: I'm wondering if the following words are also used in the Kanto
: or other areas in Japan outside of the Kansai:
: charinko / chari : bicycle
I learned charinko from an Edo-jin so it must be used in Kanto as well.
I am given to understand that "geta-mashin" is slang for the same used
in Nagoya. This from a Nagoya acquaintence.
Reg Macdonald
: In article <4eki9d$3...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> Reg Macdonald wrote:
: > horu-mon : yakiniku, where you can eat everything from the tongue
: >to the intestinal villi of the cow (yumm! Served raw and cold...uma~!)
: >
: I'm pretty sure horumon is safe. It's a medical borrowing from the German
: Hormon; I think that's where the food comes from too. What I don't
: understand is whether there's a difference in usage between horumon(yaki)
: and naizou.
A self-proclaimed Osaka Mono-shiri (know-it-all sage of the
Kansai...Osaka born and bred) once told me (while trying to get me to eat
cow villi) that the word "horumon" was invented after the War, when
people were poor and strapped for food, so they had to eat every part of
the animal, including the parts you'd usuallly throw away ... "horu"
(another way of saying throw away other than hokasu...I pretty sure this
one is pure Osaka-ben) "mono" (things)... hence the word "horumon /
horumon-yaki" used for
all-out-no-holds-barred-every-little-last-piece-on-the-poor-cow
yakiniku.
Then again, this guy was known to get carried away with his stories from
time to time...but it does kind of make sense.
Otherwise, it could be from a German medical term like Mr.Barrett says.
I asked a Japanese friend about it and he didnt' know...he looked
particularly dubious when I told him about the "horumon"-setsu...
Do they call yakiniku "horumon" in the Kanto? Maybe it comes from
Korean, since so many of the yakiniku places (at least in Osaka) are run
by Koreans...the mystery continues.
More questions:
Are the words
"Shindoi" = tired
"Gottsui" = big (dekai)
used outside of the Kansai?
Also, I think the phrase
"Imaichi" used in Tokyo (so I've heard) is replaced in the Kansai
by "Mou hitotsu ya na"...for "Just a bit more" or "Needs a little work",
"almost there but not quite" "close but no cigar".
Opinions?
Honnara,
Reg.
Mark Barton
writes:
>Subject: Re: Kansai Dialect-here are a few lessons
>Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 01:23:21
>>
>In article <4eki9d$3...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> Reg Macdonald wrote:
>> horu-mon : yakiniku, where you can eat everything from the tongue
>>to the intestinal villi of the cow (yumm! Served raw and cold...uma~!)
>>
>
>I'm pretty sure horumon is safe. It's a medical borrowing from the German
>Hormon; I think that's where the food comes from too. What I don't
>understand is whether there's a difference in usage between horumon(yaki)
>and naizou.
I have been told that horumon in the yakiniku-ya sense of "tripe" (at
least that's what I got when I tried ordering some) is actually from
Korean. I tried to confirm this in a dictionary just now, but it had
horumon-yaki filed under the German horumon. On the other hand it didn't
have any plausible linking meanings either. Believe at your own risk.
Cheers,
Mark B.
Yoshiya NISHIMURA
as a research fellow. I've recently begun to subscribe Usenet newsgroups
and found this thread. I hope my post could help people who are
interested in Kansai-ben.
Reg Macdonald wrote:
> QUESTION :
>
> I'm wondering if the following words are also used in the Kanto
> or other areas in Japan outside of the Kansai:
>
> charinko / chari : bicycle
> gentsuki-charinko / genchari : moped
> okasan-no-charinko / mamachari : mom's bike (the ones with the
> basket and the bell that I look like an idiot riding...)
I have no idea about the usage of "charinko" outside of Kansai. If they
don't use charinko, they would use "jitensha". I personally use either
charinko or jitensha according to the situation like most young Kansai
people. We sometimes say "chariki", too (ri is accented). I think there
are little dialectal or slangy words for jitensha in Japanese.
> hokasu : throw out (suteru)
> horu : throw out (")
They are really Kansai-ben, and ones of a few words in Kansai-ben whose
meaning non-Kansai people often can't understand. I believe there are
some dialects which share these words though I don't have evidence.
> horu-mon : yakiniku, where you can eat everything from the tongue
> to the intestinal villi of the cow (yumm! Served raw and cold...uma~!)
I have many times heard and read that this word was created as a
double-meaning word from "horu-mon" (things to be thrown away) and
"horumon" (hormon). They used the image that hormon would make you
strong. (In fact, anabolic steroids are uses for making athletes strong
and are the most important object of doping check.) I believe that a
Korean or a Japanese who had a connection with Korean people began this
business, because Koreans had had habit to eat "yakiniku" when Japanese
hadn't, and there is an area in Osaka where the Korean population is
very dense. Some clever guys must have arranged Korean style "yakiniku"
for Japanese taste and named it 'horumon-yaki". Outside of Kansai,
"horumon-yaki" would be called "motsu-yaki".
> If they don't use these words outside the Kansai, then what do
> they say? I mean colloquial-wise...I realise that technically charinko
> would be "jitensha" in hyoujungo, but that's no fun at all. Real-life,
> in-yer-face, on-de-street slang, or at least well used conversational
> vocabulary is what I'm searching for here.
> How about:
>
> Dokan ka ware~! : Get outta the way!!
> Jama nanka boke! : (ditto)
> Shibaittaro ka ! (more or less ditto)
>
> People often say that Kansai-ben is rougher than "normal" Japanese...do
> people in the Kanto use the same expressions when they're pissed and
> you're in the way, or do they have more refined, hyoujungo way, like
> maybe "Suimasen ga, sukoshi ha doitte itadakemassen deshou ka? Chotto
> jama nan desu kara..."?? or in Osaka, "DOKE! JAMA YA!"
I am not sure whether you can consider these kind of expressions
Kansai-ben. I mean I don't know whether they are used widely in Kansai
area. I think they are Kawachi-ben , at least a Kawachi-ben element in
Kansai-ben. I will post more about Kawachi-ben later. Anyway, they are
used some people in Kansai including me in some situations. And they are
useful to express anger or threaten other people.
I would make some correction.
"Jama nanka, boke." : I think you wrote this in the meaning of "You are
disturbing me." In that case it should be "Jama nanja, boke."
"Shibaittaroka" should be "shibaitaroka." The meaning is "Shall I strike
you?"
"Dokan ka, ware." seems correct. But, 'Dokan ke, ware." sounds more
natural to me and sounds more threatening.
> I'm about to move into a shared apartment over here (in Vancouver, The
> Great White North) with a guy from Tokyo, so I need to know these kinds
> of words... (just in case he tries to get me to eat natto or something...)
Yes, it is a very good idea to try to avoid eating natto. Osakans don't
eat natto. And if you are forced to eat it, an appropriate refusal would
be "Son'na kusatta mame nanka taberemahenwa."
Reg Macdonald
: Nice to meet you. I'm a native Osakan, who is now working in the States
: and found this thread. I hope my post could help people who are
: interested in Kansai-ben.
WE GOT ONE!!! A REAL LIVE OSAKA-BORN PARTICIPANT IN THE KANSAI
DISCUSSION THREAD!!! FINALLY WE CAN GET SOME NATIVE INPUT!!!
Nishimura-san...Kansai Thread ni youkoso!
Matteta de~!
: > QUESTION :
: >
: > I'm wondering if the following words are also used in the Kanto
: > or other areas in Japan outside of the Kansai:
: >
: > charinko / chari : bicycle
: > gentsuki-charinko / genchari : moped
: > okasan-no-charinko / mamachari : mom's bike (the ones with the
: > basket and the bell that I look like an idiot riding...)
: don't use charinko, they would use "jitensha". I personally use either
: charinko or jitensha according to the situation like most young Kansai
: people. We sometimes say "chariki", too (ri is accented). I think there
: are little dialectal or slangy words for jitensha in Japanese.
: > hokasu : throw out (suteru)
: > horu : throw out (")
: They are really Kansai-ben, and ones of a few words in Kansai-ben whose
: meaning non-Kansai people often can't understand. I believe there are
: some dialects which share these words though I don't have evidence.
: > horu-mon : yakiniku, where you can eat everything from the tongue
: > to the intestinal villi of the cow (yumm! Served raw and cold...uma~!)
:
: I have many times heard and read that this word was created as a
: double-meaning word from "horu-mon" (things to be thrown away) and
: "horumon" (hormon). They used the image that hormon would make you
: strong. (In fact, anabolic steroids are uses for making athletes strong
: and are the most important object of doping check.) I believe that a
: Korean or a Japanese who had a connection with Korean people began this
: business, because Koreans had had habit to eat "yakiniku" when Japanese
: hadn't, and there is an area in Osaka where the Korean population is
: very dense. Some clever guys must have arranged Korean style "yakiniku"
: for Japanese taste and named it 'horumon-yaki". Outside of Kansai,
: "horumon-yaki" would be called "motsu-yaki".
AH HA! So I wasn't (or at least my drunk friend wasn't) so crazy with
the "horumon = horu-mono" setsu! Vindication!! Then again, I guess it
means hormone, too...this explains all the confusion about which is the
real origin of the word...they BOTH are! Kind of like wave-particle
duality of light! (okay, maybe that's a bit overboard...)
But "motsu-yaki"??? What's the motsu?
: > If they don't use these words outside the Kansai, then what do
: > they say? I mean colloquial-wise...I realise that technically charinko
: > would be "jitensha" in hyoujungo, but that's no fun at all. Real-life,
: > in-yer-face, on-de-street slang, or at least well used conversational
: > vocabulary is what I'm searching for here.
: > How about:
: >
: > Dokan ka ware~! : Get outta the way!!
: > Jama nanka boke! : (ditto)
: > Shibaittaro ka ! (more or less ditto)
: >
: > People often say that Kansai-ben is rougher than "normal" Japanese...do
: > people in the Kanto use the same expressions when they're pissed and
: > you're in the way, or do they have more refined, hyoujungo way, like
: > maybe "Suimasen ga, sukoshi ha doitte itadakemassen deshou ka? Chotto
: > jama nan desu kara..."?? or in Osaka, "DOKE! JAMA YA!"
: I am not sure whether you can consider these kind of expressions
: Kansai-ben. I mean I don't know whether they are used widely in Kansai
: area. I think they are Kawachi-ben , at least a Kawachi-ben element in
: Kansai-ben. I will post more about Kawachi-ben later. Anyway, they are
I did a homestay in Kawachi (in Ishikiri, Higashi-Osaka) and often go
back to see the family...hence my own garbled version of Japanese and
Kansai-ben is peppered with expressions from Kawachi-ben, Kansai-ben,
Words-of-my-own-creation, and Hyoujungo. In that order.
: I would make some correction.
Please.
: "Jama nanka, boke." : I think you wrote this in the meaning of "You are
: disturbing me." In that case it should be "Jama nanja, boke."
My mistake. I've never actually used the expression...it was taught to
me by my girlfriend (who used that kind of language all the time... just
kidding!) but I never got a chance to use it. I was always too busy
being polite. But I'll remember "Jama nanJA, boke!" for the future...
: "Shibaittaroka" should be "shibaitaroka." The meaning is "Shall I strike
: you?"
Typo on my part. I like the translation "Shall I beat the snot out of
you?" better.
: "Dokan ka, ware." seems correct. But, 'Dokan ke, ware." sounds more
: natural to me and sounds more threatening.
At least I got one right. It would be interesting to see how threatening
I would be using this expression. It would have to be a careful balance
between the deadly and the ridiculous!
: > I'm about to move into a shared apartment over here (in Vancouver, The
: > Great White North) with a guy from Tokyo, so I need to know these kinds
: > of words... (just in case he tries to get me to eat natto or something...)
: Yes, it is a very good idea to try to avoid eating natto. Osakans don't
: eat natto. And if you are forced to eat it, an appropriate refusal would
: be "Son'na kusatta mame nanka taberemahenwa."
Already said that, several times. He insists that natto isn't
rotten(kusatta), just "fermented".(hakko shita)
Ma, tonikaku kusatta mon ya!
Honnara,
Reg.
Yoshiya NISHIMURA
>
> In article <4eki9d$3...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> Reg Macdonald wrote:
> > horu-mon : yakiniku, where you can eat everything from the tongue
> >to the intestinal villi of the cow (yumm! Served raw and cold...uma~!)
> >
>
> I'm pretty sure horumon is safe. It's a medical borrowing from the German
> Hormon; I think that's where the food comes from too.
The Japanese word "horumon" which means hormone is derived from German.
I believe that the Japanese word "horumonyaki" was created from "horumon",
which had been a Japanese word and Kansai-ben expression "horu-mon"
(things to be thrown away). I believe the food comes from Korean who
lived in Osaka. (cf. another post of mine) "Horumonyaki" is also called
"Horumon" for short.
> What I don't
> understand is whether there's a difference in usage between horumon(yaki)
> and naizou.
I can't understand your point because I believe you know Japanese so well.
Anyway, I will try to explain.
"Horumon(yaki)" is virtually a synonymus of "yakiniku". However,
"horumonyaki" should contain meat from internal organs, e.g. liver,
tongue, diaphragm, heart, stomach, and so on. Of course you don't have
to order intestinsal organs at a horumonyaki restrant, but you would
miss more delicious parts in that way. If you use only tenderloin and
round for your yalinku-party, you can't call it horumon-party.
I personally seldom say "horumon(yaki), but say "yakiniku". Of course,
I eat internal organ at a yakiniku-restrant, even if I don't say
"horumon(yaki)". I think people usually don't say "horumon-yaki" when
they cook "yakiniku" at their own home, even in case they use only
internal organs. In my thinking, "horumon(yaki)" is what you eat at
a "horumonyaki" rastrant and it is one of the best dishes in the world
no matter whether you call it "horumon-yaki" or "yakiniku".
"Naizou" is a wider word which refer to internal organs of the human,
mammals, and all other animals from vertebrates to insects to octopus.
I think any J-J or J-E dictionary is enough for you to know this word.
Meat from internal organs is generally referd to as "naizou-niku".
The usage of "naizou" for something to eat seems limited.
At a yakiniku restrant
"Naizou oishiikara tabete goran."
"Watashi naizou wa kirainani."
"Kore wa ika no naizou no shiodzuke desu."
"Kyou no yuugohan wa naizou ni shimashou." sounds a horror.
> I've always been curious about throw away and put away. I've been told:
>
> put away: naosu (Kansai) katadukeru (Kantou)
> throw away: hokasu (Kansai) suteru (Kantou)
>
> The joke I heard was that if you handed a Kantou-ite a radio and told
> him/her to put it away, s/he would wonder what was the matter with it.
>
> I've heard that naosu is used in some dialect (mid-Kyuushuu?) for throw
> away. This rang a bell with me, as we say "file it (in the circular file)"
> in English.
>
> yoroshiku
> Benjamin Barrett
In kansai
naosu: put away, fix, cure
shimau: put away
hokasu: throw away
horu: throw away, throw
houru: throw
put away: naosu, katadzukeru, shimau
throw away: horu, hokasu, suteru
throw: horu, nageru, houru
fix: naosu
In kyoutuugo
naosu: fix
shimau: put away
(hokasu: not used)
(horu: not used)
houru: throw
put away: katadzukeru, shimau
throw away: suteru
throw: nageru, houru
fix: naosu
Because vocabularies in kyoutuugo are also used in Kansai, there are
more expressions in Kansai on the above list. However, accent is
different between Kansai and kyoutuugo for every word in the list.
If I were aksed "Kore naoshite kudasai," I could not figure out
whether I should put it away or fix it without context. In kansai,
both "throw away" and "dig" can be translated into "horu". Houever,
we never confuse them since these two words are accented differently.
Oh, now I was struck by another joke. If you asked a Kantou-ite
"Gomi hotte kite kudasai," s/he would wonder if s/he would have to
find out somthing from garbage.
Yoshiya NISHIMURA
> Also, I think the phrase
>
> "Imaichi" used in Tokyo (so I've heard) is replaced in the Kansai
> by "Mou hitotsu ya na"...for "Just a bit more" or "Needs a little work",
> "almost there but not quite" "close but no cigar".
> Opinions?
>
> Honnara,
>
> Reg.
"Imaichi" is very common expression also in Kansai. "Mohitotsu", which is
equivalent to "Mouhitotsu" in kyoutsuugo, is also common. (Note the first
syllable is pronounced as a short vowel in Kansai.) Some Kansai-jin,
including people around me and I, are likely to prefer using "imaichi" to
"mohitotsu". I don't see any different nuances between "imaichi" and
"mohitotsu". Similarly, I think that "imaichi" and "mouhitotsu" in Kantou
are used without difference.
Of course, when you use "mohitotsu" in sense of "one more", you can't use
"imaichi" instead.
"Ringo mohitotsu okure."; One more apple, please. => correct
"Ringo imaichi okure" => incorrect, never used
Yoshiya NISHIMURA
About a week ago, someone wrote that there were some versions in Kansai-ben and
that a girl from Kyoto hadn't been able to understand what a guy from Kawachi was
saying. Yes, I can imagine the situation. But, that doesn't mean a difference of
versions in Kansai-ben.
A few decades ago, several different dialects were spoken in Kansai area, for
example, Kyoto-ben, Kawachi-ben, Kamigata-ben. (I used this term "Kamigata-ben"
in sense of the dialect which was used mainly by merchants in central Osaka City.
I'm not sure if this term is appropriate or not. If someone know a better term,
please correct.) As mass-communication got developing, these dialects have gone
out of use, and now only old people preserve them, as is the case in other
dialects in Japan. Consequently, younger people that, I think, have grown after
WWII speak almost the same language in this area.
Then, what is "this area"? I'm pretty much sure that people in almost whole area
of Kyoto, Osaka, Nara, and southern Hyougo speak this language. It is also spoken
in some part of Wakayama, Shiga, Mie, Tokushima, Kagawa. Since there is no good
term referring to this geographical area, it seems a good idea to call this
language Kansai-ben using a little vague term "Kansai".
I think Kansai-ben is mostly based on Kamigata-ben. As Mr. Macdonald wrote
previously, Kansai-ben is sometimes considered as a rough language. I believe
this element of Kansai-ben is derived from Kawachi-ben. When I was a high school
student, a song titled "Kawachi no ossan no uta" (literally, a song of a guy
from Kawachi) was in fashion. It was a kind of rap sung in Kawachi-ben. Though I
can't remember the text (maybe it started with "yo~ kitano~, ware."), it must
have sounded very rough to average Japanese. One of my friend from deep Kawachi
told me that the text consisted of *normal* words among old people there and that
one would have thought they were quarreling if one had heard them greeting.
(bumpou wa attemasuka?) The girl who couldn't understand the Kawachian must have
heard this real Kawachi-ben.
I also believe Yoshimoto comedy played a role in formation of Kansai-ben through
TV, like these days comedians from Yoshimoto have been making Kansai-ben popular
and popular throughout the country. When I am a child, Yoshimoto program was one
of favorite TV programs of mine and other children's. It has been filed with
phrases children like to use in their school life. Then they became adults and
may have stopped using too funny phrases in their social life (I stopped using).
However, they must continue to use some not-so-funny words, and those words must
have enriched vocabularies of Kansai-ben (I have been using some of them). The
typical pattern of the comedy involves a merchant family and yakuza guy picking
a quarrel with that merchant. Merchant family, of course, speaks Kamigata-ben.
The yakuza guy speaks the word based on Kawachi-ben. The typical misconception
of Kantou-jin that only merchants, comedians, and yakuza live in Osaka somehow
makes sense.
Reg Macdonald
: Reg Macdonald wrote:
:
: > Also, I think the phrase
: >
: > "Imaichi" used in Tokyo (so I've heard) is replaced in the Kansai
: > by "Mou hitotsu ya na"...for "Just a bit more" or "Needs a little work",
: > "almost there but not quite" "close but no cigar".
: > Opinions?
: >
: > Honnara,
: >
: > Reg.
: "Imaichi" is very common expression also in Kansai. "Mohitotsu", which is
: equivalent to "Mouhitotsu" in kyoutsuugo, is also common. (Note the first
: syllable is pronounced as a short vowel in Kansai.) Some Kansai-jin,
: including people around me and I, are likely to prefer using "imaichi" to
: "mohitotsu". I don't see any different nuances between "imaichi" and
: "mohitotsu". Similarly, I think that "imaichi" and "mouhitotsu" in Kantou
: are used without difference.
Alright, I'll remember that.
I was forever hearing "mohitotsu" during Shorinji Kempo practices at a
dojo in Kyoto. All the senpai there would say "Mo hitotsu ya na..." when
I would try a technique out on them and it was close but didn't quite
work. I guess it was just those individuals, but they never said
"imaichi...". Practising here in VAncouver with a friend from Tokyo, he
used imaichi when I messed up a technique...which lead me to the
(apparently mistaken) theory that mohitotsu is used in Kansai and imaichi
in Tokyo.
Another theory bites the dust...