Grammar: -te imasu verb forms
web
According to my Japanese book, you can say "hataraite imasu" to mean "I
am working at this moment", or "shite imasu" to mean "I am doing at
this moment".
I'm trying to apply this rule to the (few) verbs I know right now. Are
the following correct?
terebi de mimasu (I watch TV ) -> terebi de mite imasu (I am currently
watching TV)
kaimono ni ikimasu (I am going shopping) -> kaimono ni ikite imasu (I am
currently on my way to go shopping)
chuuka ryoori o tabemasu (I eat Chinese food) -> chuuka ryoori tabeta
imasu (I am currently eating Chinese food)
biiru o nomimasu (I drink beer) -> biiru o nomite imasu (I am currently
drinking beer)
Do I have the pattern right? In particular I am not sure about the "ki"
which follows, for instance, "ikimasu". Is the "ki" part of the "masu"
(the verb ending), or part of the "i" (the actual verb itself), or a
separate "connector" between the two? Where does it go when I change
"masu" forms to "-te imasu" forms?
Thanks in advance.
Collin McCulley
"web" <w...@web.net> wrote in message news:3C4FF0DE...@web.net...
> Hello,
>
> According to my Japanese book, you can say "hataraite imasu" to mean "I
> am working at this moment", or "shite imasu" to mean "I am doing at
> this moment".
>
> I'm trying to apply this rule to the (few) verbs I know right now. Are
> the following correct?
>
> terebi de mimasu (I watch TV ) -> terebi de mite imasu (I am currently
> watching TV)
Watch your particle: I would think this should be
"terebi _wo_ mite imasu".
> kaimono ni ikimasu (I am going shopping) -> kaimono ni ikite imasu (I am
> currently on my way to go shopping)
"iku" is irregular in the -te and -ta forms.
It becomes "itte" and "itta" respectively,
when you would expect "iite" and "iita" if it
followed the normal pattern.
Also, translate "ikimasu" as "go" or "will go".
It is precisely the "-te imasu" form that gives
you "am going".
> chuuka ryoori o tabemasu (I eat Chinese food) -> chuuka ryoori tabeta
> imasu (I am currently eating Chinese food)
"tabete". "tabeta" stands alone as a past tense.
Of course, if you wanted the same level of politeness
as "tabete imasu", it would be "tabemashita".
Note that some verbs require this "progressive"
form in order to give a present tense.
For instance:
"tanaka-san wo shitte imasu." I know Mr. Tanaka.
(verb is "shiru" - to know)
"shinjuku ni sunde imasu." I live in Shinjuku.
(verb is "sumu" - to reside)
For such verbs, there is a sense of an instantaneous
change, after which a "progressive" state remains.
So at some point, I came to know Mr. Tanaka
(instantaneous change when I met him) and subseqently
I still do know him.
For some verbs, or particular usages, I seem
to recall a sense of past tense that can arise
from the progressive. I seem to recall something
of an argument over something like
"asagohan (wo) mou tabete imasu" being "I already
ate breakfast". But now I'm out of my league.
--Collin
web
through the second volume of my textbook, I (thankfully) found the
appropriate section of the text explaining this phenomenon. If it wasn't in
my textbook, I would have been worried that my textbook was an
over-simplified version for tourists.
The text I am using, by the way, is the Assimil Japanese course (in the
German langauge, translated from the original French), which supposedly
teaches you to speak and understand within 4 months. I'm on week two. I'm
positively impressed with the materials so far. Kana and Kanji are used from
day one, and the conversations are quite fast with complicated structures
toward the end of the course (two volumes, 99 lessons).
Ross Klatte
>Date: 2002-01-24 00:46 Eastern Standard Time
>"web" <w...@web.net> wrote in message
>> kaimono ni ikimasu (I am going shopping) -> kaimono ni
>> ikite imasu (I am currently on my way to go shopping)
>
> "iku" is irregular in the -te and -ta forms.
>It becomes "itte" and "itta" respectively,
>when you would expect "iite" and "iita" if it
>followed the normal pattern.
"Kaimono ni ikiteimasu" I would translate as "I live to shop."
Ross
http://community.webshots.com/user/ross_klatte
Chris Kern
following:
>biiru o nomimasu (I drink beer) -> biiru o nomite imasu (I am currently
>drinking beer)
This should be "nonde imasu".
-Chris
Bart Mathias
> ..., translate "ikimasu" as "go" or "will go". It is precisely the
> "-te imasu" form that gives you "am going".
I think this came out a little garbled. "itte imasu" can mean "I'm
going" only as habitual action, such as "gakoo-ni itte imasu" =
"(whomever we're talking about) is a student."
Otherwise, "itte imasu" means "... is there (having gone there)."
Remember that "BE ...-ing" is a kind of future in English. "We're
having spaghetti tonight." "I'm going shopping" is as perfect as you
can get for "kaimono-ni ikimasu."
Bart
Collin McCulley
"Bart Mathias" <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote in message news:Z6.q5.lH2BES...@hawaii.edu...
Yeah, I rethought that for that particular
example after I posted, and figured someone
would catch me out.
In that case, the idiomatic usage in
both languages makes it such that that usually
won't express a currently occurring action,
but surely not all verbs give a "habitual"
or completed feel in the progressive form?
"mainichi niwa ni sanpo shimasu." (habitual)
vs.
"otousan ha doko ni imasu ka?"
"a, (ima) niwa ni sanpo shite imasu." (right now)
No?
Also:
> Otherwise, "itte imasu" means "... is there
> (having gone there)."
Could this also be turning on
the fact that "iku" is a "verb of motion"
rather than a "verb of action"? Are there
many (or any) "verbs of action" that would
_only_ express habitual or completed action in
the "-te iru" form?
I realize that (probably) any of them
can:
"Nihongo wo benkyou shite imasu."
--Collin
Sean Holland
mat...@hawaii.edu wrote on 1/24/02 5:09 PM:
(snip)
> Otherwise, "itte imasu" means "... is there (having gone there)."
Where were you during the "completed action" war?
--
Collin McCulley
"Collin McCulley" <cmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:83348.12247$Fh4.9...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> "mainichi niwa ni sanpo shimasu." (habitual)
>
> vs.
>
> "otousan ha doko ni imasu ka?"
> "a, (ima) niwa ni sanpo shite imasu." (right now)
>
Gak. Make the first and third
"ni" into a "de".
--Collin
Bart Mathias
> "Bart Mathias" <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote...
> > ... "itte imasu"
> > can mean "I'm going" only as habitual action, such as
> > "ga[k!]koo-ni itte imasu" = "(whomever we're talking about) is a
> > student."
> > Otherwise, "itte imasu" means "... is there (having gone there)."
> > Remember that "BE ...-ing" is a kind of future in English.
> > "We're having spaghetti tonight." "I'm going shopping" is as
> > perfect as you can get for "kaimono-ni ikimasu."
> Yeah, I rethought that for that particular
> example after I posted, and figured someone would catch me out.
> In that case, the idiomatic usage in
> both languages makes it such that that usually won't express a
> currently occurring action, but surely not all verbs give a
> "habitual" or completed feel in the progressive form?
> "mainichi niwa [de] sanpo shimasu." (habitual)
> vs.
> "otousan ha doko ni imasu ka?"
> "a, (ima) niwa [de] sanpo shite imasu." (right now)
> No?
I'd want something a little more hiroi than a typical niwa to do it
in, but to my ~NS ear "(kono goro) mainichi (kenkoo-no tame-ni)
kooen-de ichijikan-gurai sanposhite imasu" sounds just fine. And
changing the ending to sanposhimasu (again, to the same ~NS ear)
makes it sound a bit icky.
> Also:
> > Otherwise, "itte imasu" means "... is there (having gone there)."
>
> Could this also be turning on
> the fact that "iku" is a "verb of motion" rather than a "verb of
> action"?
I don't accept "iku" as a "verb of motion" (I am still alone in this
as far as I can tell, although I thought I made good arguments for it
being a "verb of 2nd location"). It's a (non-permanent)
change-of-state verb (unless it has a direct object specifying a
route). For me, verbs of motion would be verbs like "furueru, odoru,
mau, oyogu," etc.
Even though "doko iku-no" comes out as "Where ya goING?" in English,
I think "go" is also essentially a change-of-state verb.
"Where ya goin'?"
"School."
"Yeah? How much have you gone to school so far?"
The answer to that could be "half way." But suppose he changes his
mind and goes back home. When he went half-way to school, did he go
to school? If not, was it true when he said he was going to school?
Or does going to school hinge on actually getting there (an
instantaneous change of state)?
> Are there
> many (or any) "verbs of action" that would _only_ express habitual
> or completed action in the "-te iru" form?> I realize that
> (probably) any of them can: "Nihongo wo benkyou shite imasu."
I can't imagine that there are any.
It might be hard to get "benkyooshite iru" as perfective.
I wonder how the following should be corrected?
boku-wa moo juubun-ni nihongo-o benkyooshite aru-kara nihon-e
itte miyoo-to omotte iru.
Bart
Bart Mathias
> in article Z6.q5.lH2BES...@hawaii.edu, Bart Mathias [done
> writ]:
> (snip)
> > Otherwise, "itte imasu" means "... is there (having gone there)."
> Where were you during the "completed action" war?
Rye cheer.
I don't understand the question.
Bart
Chris Kern
posted the following:
A while back there was a big debate over -te iru forms of verbs,
especially concerning so-called "resultant states" or "completed
actions". I don't remember the thread name, sorry.
-Chris
Collin McCulley
"Bart Mathias" <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote in message news:r3.22.mH2v88...@hawaii.edu...
> "Collin McCulley" writes:
> > In that case, the idiomatic usage in
> > both languages makes it such that that usually won't express a
> > currently occurring action, but surely not all verbs give a
> > "habitual" or completed feel in the progressive form?
>
> > "mainichi niwa [de] sanpo shimasu." (habitual)
> > vs.
> > "otousan ha doko ni imasu ka?"
> > "a, (ima) niwa [de] sanpo shite imasu." (right now)
>
> > No?
>
> I'd want something a little more hiroi than a typical
> niwa to do it in,
Odd. The Fort Worth Japanese Garden, which is
quite big enough to walk around in for a good long
time, is called a "niwa" (in kanji) in the pamphlet
they give you when you go in...
> but to my ~NS ear "(kono goro)
> mainichi (kenkoo-no tame-ni) kooen-de ichijikan-gurai
> sanposhite imasu" sounds just fine. And
> changing the ending to sanposhimasu (again, to the
> same ~NS ear) makes it sound a bit icky.
One lesson I'm taking away from this (or
already knew, actually), is that "-te iru"
is quite as idiomatically flexible as
"[to be] -ing". I think the only hope to
learn it (esp. as opposed to when to use the
so-called "present indicative") is verb by verb
by absorbing examples.
> > Also:
> > > Otherwise, "itte imasu" means "... is there (having gone there)."
> >
> > Could this also be turning on
> > the fact that "iku" is a "verb of motion" rather than a "verb of
> > action"?
>
> I don't accept "iku" as a "verb of motion"
[snip]
Very interesting.
> I think "go" is also essentially a change-of-state verb.
>
> "Where ya goin'?"
> "School."
> "Yeah? How much have you gone to school so far?"
>
> The answer to that could be "half way." But suppose
> he changes his mind and goes back home. When he went
> half-way to school, did he go to school?
> If not, was it true when he said he was going to school?
You answered your own question. He didn't go
"to school" he went "halfway to school". Despite
his answer, which was given _during_ his forward
progress, that "halfway to school" his actual
destination. I think there are different semantics
being exposed here between "where are you going?"
(intended destination), vs. "where did you
go?" (actual destination).
> Or does going to school hinge on actually getting there (an
> instantaneous change of state)?
"Going to school" is "the act of being en route
to school" (in this context, i.e. as opposed to
"the act of attending a school on a regular basis".)
I don't know. This is getting waaay too
philosophical for me, esp. on a Friday night. :)
And at this point I've totally lost any connection
to how this relates to "-te iru".
> It might be hard to get "benkyooshite iru" as perfective.
>
> I wonder how the following should be corrected?
>
> boku-wa moo juubun-ni nihongo-o benkyooshite
> aru-kara nihon-e itte miyoo-to omotte iru.
Hmmm. With "aru" this sounds like it might
almost want to be translated passively, if
it weren't for the "boku-wa":
"The Japanese has already been studied enough
(by persons unknown), so I think I'll try to
go to Japan."
I wish persons unknown would do _my_ work. :)
--Collin
Sean Holland
mat...@hawaii.edu wrote on 1/25/02 12:27 PM:
Well, during the "completed action" war I was left to swing in the wind, a
lonely voice in the wilderness claiming that -te imasu can convey a sense of
"completed action", with no friend to support me while abuse, contempt and
disdain were heaped upon me by many brutish foes. But since then, every now
and then, someone says pretty much just what I was saying back then, and my
heart cries out, "Where were you when the Philistines were flinging stones
at me?"
Sorry, I've been doing a lot of music stuff lately and I may be having an
attack of artistic temperament. My stoic Vulcan demeanour will soon return.
--
Collin McCulley
"Sean Holland" <seanh...@telus.net> wrote in message news:B877B2A3.84C4%seanh...@telus.net...
> in article p3.y1.mH2t8J...@hawaii.edu, Bart Mathias at
> mat...@hawaii.edu wrote on 1/25/02 12:27 PM:
>
> > "Sean Holland" writes:
> >
> >> in article Z6.q5.lH2BES...@hawaii.edu, Bart Mathias [done
> >> writ]:
> >
> >> (snip)
> >>> Otherwise, "itte imasu" means "... is there (having gone there)."
> >
> >> Where were you during the "completed action" war?
> >
> > Rye cheer.
> >
> > I don't understand the question.
> >
> > Bart
>
> Well, during the "completed action" war I was left
> to swing in the wind, a lonely voice in the
> wilderness claiming that -te imasu can convey a
> sense of "completed action",
IIRC, it was your daughter who had just
finished breakfast.
--Collin
Chris Kern
posted the following:
>Well, during the "completed action" war I was left to swing in the wind, a
>lonely voice in the wilderness claiming that -te imasu can convey a sense of
>"completed action", with no friend to support me while abuse, contempt and
>disdain were heaped upon me by many brutish foes.
Isn't "resultant state" the same thing as "completed action"? IIRC,
most people were on the RS/CA side of things.
-Chris
Chris Kern
Never mind, completed action and resultant state are apparently
different. I guess you were blowing in the wind :-)
-Chris
Bart Mathias
> Well, during the "completed action" war I was left to swing in the
> wind, a lonely voice in the wilderness claiming that -te imasu can
> convey a sense of "completed action", with no friend to support me
> while abuse, contempt and disdain were heaped upon me by many
> brutish foes. But since then, every now and then, someone says
> pretty much just what I was saying back then, and my heart cries
> out, "Where were you when the Philistines were flinging stones at
> me?"
I think you need to google back and look at that debate again.
Or else it's the "action" of your "completed action" that is the
problem. It takes special contexts to get perfective senses with
expressions like "yonde iru, tabete iru," etc., on verbs which
normally predicate a time-spanning action.
But with change of state verbs, such as "shinu" or "iku,"
completion-of-change/resultant-state is the normal reading, and
(pseudo-)progressive interpretation hinges on special contexts.
Bart
Bart Mathias
> On 25 Jan 2002 20:27:36 GMT, "Bart Mathias" responded to Sean
> Holland's
SH> Where were you during the "completed action" war?
with:
> >Rye cheer.
> >I don't understand the question.
> A while back there was a big debate over -te iru forms of verbs,
> especially concerning so-called "resultant states" or "completed
> actions". I don't remember the thread name, sorry.
I was, as I said (I shouldn't have gotten cute with the spelling),
right here during the debate.
My basic understanding of "-te iru" developed early in my career and
has needed only slight refinement since my c. 1970 paper "On the
semantics of '-te i' attachment," in which I (to my mind, but it
didn't bring me fame and fortune) solved the problems Kindaichi
Haruhiko encountered in his famous "Kokugo dooshi-no ichibunrui."
There wasn't anything particularly disturbing or surprising in the
slj "debate."
Bart
Sho
> mat...@hawaii.edu wrote on 1/25/02 12:27 PM:
> [...] with no friend to support me while abuse, contempt and
> disdain were heaped upon me by many brutish foes.
[...]
> Sorry, I've been doing a lot of music stuff lately and I may be
having an
> attack of artistic temperament. My stoic Vulcan demeanour will
soon return.
Sounds to me more like hallucination of some kind. Are you into
drugs now, I mean, after you got fired for your own demeanor in
your language class?
Sho
Sean Holland
09385...@jcom.home.ne.jp wrote on 1/26/02 12:39 PM:
I took an aspirin while drinking Coca Cola by mistake. I had a headache from
licking toads.
Collin McCulley
"Bart Mathias" <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote in message news:94.g1.nH2I8l...@hawaii.edu...
> Or else it's the "action" of your "completed action" that is the
> problem. It takes special contexts to get perfective senses with
> expressions like "yonde iru, tabete iru," etc., on verbs which
> normally predicate a time-spanning action.
>
> But with change of state verbs, such as "shinu" or "iku,"
> completion-of-change/resultant-state is the normal reading, and
> (pseudo-)progressive interpretation hinges on special contexts.
>
You know I have a penchant to compile these
kinds of things into lists -- but before I do,
I wonder if a list of "change of state" verbs
exists somewhere?
--Collin
Sho
I browsed the web for this without much success. Then I went to
your web page on verbs but there aren't as many verbs as you would
probably like to have examined. Can you perhaps group together
words with a [v...] tag on your "Accumulated Vocabulary" page real
quick in whatever order, and send it to the group or personally to
me? In case you resort to the latter option, I would like to have
it sent as an attachment in an Excel format, if it's not too much
trouble for you. If it is, the simple text format is no problem.
I'm thinking of working on the data on Kindaichi's four classes of
verbs. But before we get started on this, I'd like to have Bart or
anyone else clear my mind of the following questions:
As far as I can remember, Kindaichi H. gives "aru", "dekiru",
"mieru" as examples of those falling in the category of stative
verbs that CANNOT take the -teiru form. Kuno S. adds(?) to this
list verbs like "iru", "wakaru", and "kikoeru"
1. Does Kuno mean the above is the exhaustive list of Class 1
[+stative] verbs? I don't see a catchall marker like "like","etc."
or "and so on" there.
2. He treats "aru" 'to exist' and "aru" 'to have' as separate
items, both belonging to this category, while he gives 'iru' 'to
need' as a member of this group but does not make any mention of
"iru" 'to exist'. To me, the two "aru"s are virtually the same,
while the two "iru" are separate items but both belong to this
category.
3. I can say "dekiteiru", "mieteiru", "wakatteiru" and
"kikoeteiru" no problem. Yet, Kindaichi seems to say that these
are under Class 1, because it cannot be followed by -teiru. ???
Actually, I don't have the Kindaichi literature at hand, so I'm
not sure if my memory is accurate.
Sho
Collin McCulley
"Sho" <09385...@jcom.home.ne.jp> wrote in message news:1vP48.5413$kn.6...@news1.rdc1.ky.home.ne.jp...
>
> "Collin McCulley" <cmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:BmH48.18408$ag5.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> >
> > kinds of things into lists -- but before I do,
> > I wonder if a list of "change of state" verbs
> > exists somewhere?
>
> I browsed the web for this without much success.
> Then I went to your web page on verbs but there
> aren't as many verbs as you would probably like
> to have examined. Can you perhaps group together
> words with a [v...] tag on your "Accumulated
> Vocabulary" page real quick in whatever order,
> and send it to the group or personally to me?
Sounds like you're getting ready to do much
more work than I had in mind. I was just going
to collect them one-by-one as I encountered them.
Here's what you've asked for:
http://home.earthlink.net/~cmcculley/wordlist_verbs.txt
http://home.earthlink.net/~cmcculley/jinflect_verbs.txt
Both are EUC files if your browser doesn't autodetect
them. The first link are just the verbs on my vocab list.
The second list are all the verbs in EDICT at the time
I released J_Inflect, in case you wanted to see
a more complete list. Unfortunately there are
a lot of verb expressions with "naru", "iu", etc. in
there, as well as about 3000 "-suru" verbs. I have no
quick way to filter them out from a file in this
format.
I'm sending you an Excel file of the first one
through email.
--Collin
Lei Tanabe
"Collin McCulley" <cmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote
>
> Odd. The Fort Worth Japanese Garden, which is
> quite big enough to walk around in for a good long
> time, is called a "niwa" (in kanji) in the pamphlet
> they give you when you go in...
"Niwa" is usually a smallish home garden and "庭園 teien" is more
appropriate for your case.
I think "niwa" originally means an enclosed open space.
Your question reminds me of a childhood memory.
We, kids played around in the open dirt area which we called "niwa". It
seems to be the equivalent to the lawn area here. We were not allowed to
play in the Japanese traditional type of garden with trees, shrubs and
rocks. This garden was called "お坪 o-tsubo". Niwa and o-tsubo were
separated by bamboo fence.
To my kid's eyes o-tsubo was just like a natural landscape with mountains,
cliffs and woodlands, so attractive that we sometimes sneaked in and were
scolded by breaking an azalea bush and box branches.
Lei
Collin McCulley
"Lei Tanabe" <l...@clear.net.nz> wrote in message news:3c54...@clear.net.nz...
>
> "Collin McCulley" <cmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote
> >
> > Odd. The Fort Worth Japanese Garden, which is
> > quite big enough to walk around in for a good long
> > time, is called a "niwa" (in kanji) in the pamphlet
> > they give you when you go in...
>
> "Niwa" is usually a smallish home garden and "庭園 teien"
> is more appropriate for your case.
Yup. That's it. I dug the pamphlet back out
and it's: フォートワース日本庭園.
I must only have been remembering the first
kanji.
--Collin
Bart Mathias
> ...
> I'm thinking of working on the data on Kindaichi's four classes of
> verbs. But before we get started on this, I'd like to have Bart or
> anyone else clear my mind of the following questions:
>
> As far as I can remember, Kindaichi H. gives "aru", "dekiru",
> "mieru" as examples of those falling in the category of stative
> verbs that CANNOT take the -teiru form. Kuno S. adds(?) to this
> list verbs like "iru", "wakaru", and "kikoeru"
I think you meant "that CANNOT ..." as applying to all jootaidooshi,
and not as making a sub-class, right? (If not, you should have.)
> 1. Does Kuno mean the above is the exhaustive list of Class 1
> [+stative] verbs? I don't see a catchall marker like "like","etc."
> or "and so on" there.
He can't. And Kindaichi mentions those verbs, as well as all derived
potentials.
> 2. He treats "aru" 'to exist' and "aru" 'to have' as separate
> items, both belonging to this category, while he gives 'iru' 'to
> need' as a member of this group but does not make any mention of
> "iru" 'to exist'. To me, the two "aru"s are virtually the same,
> while the two "iru" are separate items but both belong to this
> category.
"aru" 'to exist, to have, to happen' are all the same verb (as I
explained my dissertation, the 1970 paper I mentioned a couple days
ago, and in the paper rejected by Kokugogaku), but there is a
tendency to distinguish them; I can't recall whether Kindaichi did or
not. Kuno un-pairs the "exist/have" part of that on the grounds that
the "have" version is "transitive" (read: a double-ga verb).
"ir-u" and "i-ru" are fairly distinct, except for the
shuushi-rentaikei. Both are stative, though, as you note.
> 3. I can say "dekiteiru", "mieteiru", "wakatteiru" and "kikoeteiru"
> no problem. Yet, Kindaichi seems to say that these are under Class
> 1, because it cannot be followed by -teiru. ??? Actually, I don't
> have the Kindaichi literature at hand, so I'm not sure if my memory
> is accurate.
What you're forgetting is that such data led K. to set up homonymous
verbs: a stative "wakaru" vs. an instantaneous "wakaru," ditto
"mieru" and "dekiru."
He did this with a lot of verbs. There is a "magaru" that is a
shunkandooshi (instantaneous, or change of state verb), and there is
a homonymous near synonym that is a daiyonshunodooshi (verbs which do
not predicate without -te i-). There is a keizokudooshi "yomu" and
there is a shunkan "yomu" that shows up in sentences like (if I can
get it right--I don't remember K.'s example exactly, though he has
one, and as Sean found out, these are tricky) "sono hon-o tokku-ni
yonde iru."
Examination of those problems is what led me to the discovery that it
isn't verbs, but predications (including objects, subjects, even
adverbs with the verbs), that belong to the kind of classes he set
up.
Bart
Bart Mathias
> "Niwa" is usually a smallish home garden and "BDm1`B teien" is more
> appropriate for your case.
> I think "niwa" originally means an enclosed open space.
I equate the word more closely with "yard" than I do with "garden,"
although of course "yard' and "garden" are cognate.
I also suspect, without solid evidence, that the "ba" of "basho" (and
"naraba"?) may have been "niwa" (i.e., "nipa") originally.
Bart
Sho
> "Sho" writes:
> > As far as I can remember, Kindaichi H. gives "aru",
> > "dekiru", "mieru" as examples of those falling in the
> > category of stative verbs that CANNOT take
> > the -teiru form. Kuno S. adds(?) to this list verbs
> > like "iru", "wakaru", and "kikoeru"
> I think you meant "that CANNOT ..." as applying to
> all jootaidooshi, and not as making a sub-class, right?
> (If not, you should have.)
Oops. So, "... stative verbs, which, by definition, cannot take
the -teiru form." Is this good enough?
> Kindaichi mentions those [jootai] verbs, as well as all
> derived potentials.
I've gotten hold of volume 2 of Kindaichi's Nihongo (1988) in the
Iwanami Shinsho series. Would you say this is probably the best I
can hope for without bothering to go to a decent good-size
university library of some kind?
> "aru" 'to exist, to have, to happen' are all the same verb
> (as I explained my dissertation, the 1970 paper I
> mentioned a couple days ago, and in the paper rejected
> by Kokugogaku), but there is a tendency to distinguish
> them; I can't recall whether Kindaichi did or not. Kuno
> un-pairs the "exist/have" part of that on the grounds
> that the "have" version is "transitive" (read: a
> double-ga verb).
>
> "ir-u" and "i-ru" are fairly distinct, except for the
> shuushi-rentaikei. Both are stative, though, as you note.
>
> > 3. I can say "dekiteiru", "mieteiru", "wakatteiru" and
> > "kikoeteiru" no problem.
> What you're forgetting is that such data led K. to set up
> homonymous verbs: a stative "wakaru" vs. an
> instantaneous "wakaru," ditto "mieru" and "dekiru."
Now I remember I had gotten that idea last time I went though that
portion, but his exemplification is so complicated that I quickly
get lost even where I thought I found the way before.
> He did this with a lot of verbs. There is a "magaru"
> that is a shunkandooshi (instantaneous, or change
> of state verb), and there is a homonymous near
> synonym that is a daiyonshunodooshi (verbs which do
> not predicate without -te i-). There is a keizokudooshi
> "yomu" and there is a shunkan "yomu" that shows
> up in sentences like (if I can get it right--I don't
> remember K.'s example exactly, though he has one,
> and as Sean found out, these are tricky) "sono hon-o
> tokku-ni yonde iru."
Ah, that explains why I'm getting double readings on so many verbs
on Collin's list. As it turned out, IIRC, Sean's problem wasn't
all that complicated, but I clearly remember I suggested the
possibility for the second reading of "tabe-teiru" some time in
the course of the discussion before the cat came out of the bag.
I've already assigned, tentatively, some subclass tag(s) to each
and every one of Collin's shorter list, the one with some 300
verbs on it, believing that it will help learners produce correct
verbal strings, but now I'm not so sure. I'm not anywhere close to
the stage where I can put it for public scrutiny.
Most verbs fall into categories 2 (continuative) or 3
(instantaneous). With many Class 2 verbs, however, it seems more
or less like the matter of zooming in and out: when you zoom out
and see the action as a whole as a point in the flow of time, you
want to give it the Class 3 label as well. When Class 1 (joutai)
and Class 4 (which now seems to cover more items than I originally
thought) come into the total picture with all these chances of
double or (possibly triple?) readings, things get extremely messy.
Now I'm beginning to see why I couldn't find, on the web at least,
anything like comprehensive lists of verbs sorted out in this
connection. Come to think of it, you didn't answer Collin's
question. Are there any available on paper? With a number of what
appear to be class 3 verbs, on the other hand, when the element of
plurality both in regard to the subject and object are involved, I
get totally lost in what I'm doing.
> Examination of those problems is what led me to the
> discovery that it isn't verbs, but predications
> (including objects, subjects, even adverbs with the
> verbs), that belong to the kind of classes he set
> up.
That seems to make a lot of sense, but I don't have the slightest
idea how I could do it effectively. More than anything else, you
seem to be suggesting that what I'm trying to do will almost
certainly prove to be futile. Is it worth trying in the first
place?
Sho