Are there dyslectic Japanese?
Konrad Viltersten
in japanese? Is that affected by the share of kanji in
the text? If so - in what way?
--
Vänligen
Konrad
---------------------------------------------------
Sleep - thing used by ineffective people
as a substitute for coffee
Ambition - a poor excuse for not having
enough sense to be lazy
---------------------------------------------------
Travers Naran
> Is it possible to be a dislectic when reading or writing
> in japanese? Is that affected by the share of kanji in
> the text? If so - in what way?
I'd like tho hear a definitive answer on this one. Last time it came
up, there were a lot of snide remarks, but I don't recall an answer.
There definitely is dyslexia because they even have a word for it: 失読症.
I'm curious to know how it affects reading/writing Japanese (the pages I
find w/ Google are way beyond my reading level).
Interesting, only 900 hits with the official word, and 14 900 hits for
ディスレクシア.
BTW, it's spelled dyslexic. (I resisted the obvious dyslexia joke)
Louise Bremner
> Konrad Viltersten wrote:
> > Is it possible to be a dislectic when reading or writing
> > in japanese? Is that affected by the share of kanji in
> > the text? If so - in what way?
>
> I'd like tho hear a definitive answer on this one. Last time it came
> up, there were a lot of snide remarks, but I don't recall an answer.
> There definitely is dyslexia because they even have a word for it: ???.
>
> I'm curious to know how it affects reading/writing Japanese
I've been told it affects kana more than kanji in reading, but both are
affected in writing.
> (the pages I find w/ Google are way beyond my reading level).
Oh goodie, another topic to investigate when I get a round tuit....
________________________________________________________________________
Louise Bremner (log at gol dot com)
If you want a reply by e-mail, don't write to my Yahoo address!
declan...@hotmail.com
> Is it possible to be a dislectic when reading or writing
> in japanese? Is that affected by the share of kanji in
> the text? If so - in what way?
There are dyslexic Japanese of course. The amount of kanji relative to
kana in text doesn't appear to be a consideration, at least amongst
post-secondary adults (I don't know anything about early
childhood/school age learners).
Interestingly we have had two foreigners with dyslexia enrol at Yamasa
and make it through the program without major dramas. 1 repeated a
term, but both made it past JLPT2 level and would probably pass JLPT1
if they continue their studies. If dyslexia doesn't prevent foreign
students from learning how to read and write Japanese, it shouldn't be
more of a problem for native speakers, at least in terms of learning
process.
Cindy
I won't believe anything until an MD diagnoses dyslexia because it's a
neurological disorder. Konrad's question is asking for an excuse for 勉
強不足. If I look at a Hebrew sentence or an Arabic sentence, I won't
be able to read and will be helpless. But, I am not dyslexic.
Cindy
> Travers Naran <tna...@no-more-virii-please.direct.ca> wrote:
>
>
>>Konrad Viltersten wrote:
>>
>>>Is it possible to be a dislectic when reading or writing
>>>in japanese? Is that affected by the share of kanji in
>>>the text? If so - in what way?
>>
>>I'd like tho hear a definitive answer on this one. Last time it came
>>up, there were a lot of snide remarks, but I don't recall an answer.
>>There definitely is dyslexia because they even have a word for it: ???.
>>
>>I'm curious to know how it affects reading/writing Japanese
>
>
> I've been told it affects kana more than kanji in reading, but both are
> affected in writing.
Kana is so easy; how can you go dyslexia? Well, now I know what drives
me to dyslexia -- Romaji. Romaji sentences may cause anaphylactic shock
on me.
Paul Blay
> I won't believe anything until an MD diagnoses dyslexia because it's a
> neurological disorder. Konrad's question is asking for an excuse for 勉
> 強不足. If I look at a Hebrew sentence or an Arabic sentence, I won't
> be able to read and will be helpless. But, I am not dyslexic.
Cindy, Cindy, Cindy. That's the closest you've been to going back to
my killfile for weeks.
Just how far out of your arse _did_ you pull that assumption?
Arekusu
> Louise Bremner
> Kana is so easy; how can you go dyslexia?
There is no dyslexia in a country when nobody is studying it.
But in Japan since 1997, some people begin to look at it.
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/education/kouza/english050303.htm
Even if hiragana are easy, some people cannot understand that a sign
means a sound.
In the developped countries, the official literacy rate of 99% is not
the actual reading ability rate. Unesco says in Europe about 10 -13% of
the adults can't read simple sentences. That must be about the same in
Japan for hiragana, more for kanjis. Just show a map to some people in
the street...
Arekusu
John W.
>
> Kana is so easy; how can you go dyslexia?
So is the letter E, but despite my age and work to correct things I
still have to think about it when hand writing. I've had a similar
problem with some kana.
John W.
Rolomail
<ceo (at) fat24.com> wrote:
> In the developped countries, the official literacy rate of 99% is not
> the actual reading ability rate. Unesco says in Europe about 10 -13% of
> the adults can't read simple sentences. That must be about the same in
> Japan for hiragana, more for kanjis. Just show a map to some people in
> the street...
At first glance, I found this statistic shocking... But then I thought...
The Standford IQ test allots 15 points per standard deviation, which in a
two tailed distribution, would put what? 18% of the populatin at an IQ less
than 85? I vaguely recall that an IQ of 85 can be used as a definition of
legally slow (at least in criminal defense). So, if only 13% of Europe's
population cannot read simple sentences, at least 5% of the population is
doing way better than expected... That is to say, at least 5% are reading
simple sentences real slowly, while 2/3 of the legally slow can't read
simple sentences at all.
(Begs the question, how do these developed countries come up with 99%
literacy rates? Are they excluding the naturally slow portions of their
populations?)
But we've also all read that the Japanese tend to score 15 points higher
than average on IQ tests... A full standard deviation higher than normal.
That would leave only 2% of their population with an IQ at 85 or less. I
assume Unesco couldn't find the same shockingly high percentage of Japanese
who cannot read simple sentences vis-a-vis Europeans or they would have
publicized that figure as well.
All speculative...
Cindy
> Cindy a écrit :
>
>> Louise Bremner
>> Kana is so easy; how can you go dyslexia?
>
>
> There is no dyslexia in a country when nobody is studying it.
>
> But in Japan since 1997, some people begin to look at it.
>
> http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/education/kouza/english050303.htm
>
> Even if hiragana are easy, some people cannot understand that a sign
> means a sound.
Have you been diagnosed as having a dyslexia?
> In the developped countries, the official literacy rate of 99% is not
> the actual reading ability rate. Unesco says in Europe about 10 -13% of
> the adults can't read simple sentences. That must be about the same in
> Japan for hiragana, more for kanjis. Just show a map to some people in
> the street...
Yeah, more for Kanji than hiragana usually.
I agree that a small percentage of people have a sort of disability in
learning in any country. Those people were pathologically diagnosed so.
Just because you can not read or write kana, that doesn't mean you are
dyslexic. Probably you will have to take several tests to be diagnosed.
If you are a fairly normal person who has had no accident to the
brain and there is no sign of dementia, you should be able to master
kana or any language. What seems a disability is a lack of enthusiasm
and repetitive practice. You need to spend time to practice what you
are learning. Also, if you are a perfectionist, learning experience
must be stressful to you because you are afraid of making mistakes. But
it doesn't make you dyslexic.
Travers Naran
She read the body and ignored the subject. Thus she assumed Konrad was
a native English speaker saying:
"Is it possible to be a dislectic when reading or writing
in japanese?"
She then added, from her own prejudices: "... so I can explain why it's
so hard for me to learn Japanese".
She must have forgotten Konrad's native language is not English and he
often uses "odd" phrasing.
It's a Cindy moment, which I've learn to accept. :-)
Cindy
> Paul Blay wrote:
>
>>"Cindy" <cindy1...@att.net> wrote ...
>>
>>>I won't believe anything until an MD diagnoses dyslexia because it's a
>>>neurological disorder. Konrad's question is asking for an excuse for 勉
>>>強不足. If I look at a Hebrew sentence or an Arabic sentence, I won't
>>>be able to read and will be helpless. But, I am not dyslexic.
>>
>>Cindy, Cindy, Cindy. That's the closest you've been to going back to
>>my killfile for weeks.
>>
>>Just how far out of your arse _did_ you pull that assumption?
>
>
> She read the body and ignored the subject. Thus she assumed Konrad was
> a native English speaker saying:
>
> "Is it possible to be a dislectic when reading or writing
> in japanese?"
What am I supposed to do? To say "Yes" and it'll make everybody happy?
Then, I have to say "Yes" to the people who has abnormalities in the
hemisphere of the brain and the tracts (nerves) that dominates
languages, shapes, and communications. That's dyslexia.
> She then added, from her own prejudices: "... so I can explain why it's
> so hard for me to learn Japanese".
"Me"? Who is "me"?
> She must have forgotten Konrad's native language is not English and he
> often uses "odd" phrasing.
I don't care who's native language is what. Why do I have to pay
attention to Konrad's native language?
> It's a Cindy moment, which I've learn to accept. :-)
That sounds pretty condescending.
Dan Rempel
> On 1/16/06 8:17, in article 43cb9ce5$0$2053$626a...@news.free.fr, "Arekusu"
> <ceo (at) fat24.com> wrote:
>> In the developped countries, the official literacy rate of 99% is not
>> the actual reading ability rate. Unesco says in Europe about 10 -13% of
>> the adults can't read simple sentences. That must be about the same in
>> Japan for hiragana, more for kanjis. Just show a map to some people in
>> the street...
>
> At first glance, I found this statistic shocking... But then I thought...
>
> The Standford IQ test allots 15 points per standard deviation, which in a
> two tailed distribution, would put what? 18% of the populatin at an IQ less
> than 85? I vaguely recall that an IQ of 85 can be used as a definition of
> legally slow (at least in criminal defense). So, if only 13% of Europe's
> population cannot read simple sentences, at least 5% of the population is
> doing way better than expected... That is to say, at least 5% are reading
> simple sentences real slowly, while 2/3 of the legally slow can't read
> simple sentences at all.
>
> (Begs the question,
Nope.
Dan
Dan Rempel
> Is it possible to be a dislectic when reading or writing
> in japanese? Is that affected by the share of kanji in
> the text? If so - in what way?
You have re-opened one of the favourite/infamous cans of worms around
here. I guess a short answer is that politically there is no dyslexia in
Japan: kanji processing is so different from alphabet processing that
dyslexia can't occur (one of my more idiotic linguistic instructors
claimed that kanji was "a holographic writing system"). But, since
Japanese people are about as human as everybody else, if dyslexia
exists, it must occur in the Japanese population, or so it seems to me.
Dan
Rolomail
18f2913a347a899f...@grapevine.islandnet.com, "Dan Rempel" <ceo
(at) fat24.com> wrote:
Take for example Dan's EDICT sized vocabulary, mental clarity, and pedantic
power...
infinity
> Kana is so easy; how can you go dyslexia? Well, now I know what drives
> me to dyslexia -- Romaji. Romaji sentences may cause anaphylactic shock
> on me.
Squiggly kana tend to look all alike (handwritten ち, わ and り look
much the same to me (handwritten ri really threw me at first due to the
two lines being joined in a big loop)), and some are mirror images of
one another which is confusing, it took me ages to tell さ from ち for
instance, in the end I managed to remember which way round chi was, and
was then able to identify sa because it "wasn't chi". Also katakana ニ
looks like hiragana こ, etc., also katakana シ/ツ ソ/ン differ only in
the angle of the strokes (I still have difficulty with those pairs).
These sort of things are a major stumbling block for dyslexics I think,
especially mirror image forms and rotations.
Dan Rempel
Clear I ain't, pedantic I are, begging the question that wasn't. BTW,
what was my intellectual might supposed to be an example of?
Dan
Paul Blay
> Travers Naran wrote:
>> It's a Cindy moment, which I've learn to accept. :-)
>
> That sounds pretty condescending.
シンディさんの英語力を甘く見たようです。
Cindy
I repeat - dyslexia is a disorder (disease) that a physician has to
diagnose. Certainly, it's intimidating for some people to be familiar
with those similar looking letters. This is why you need to practice.
You have to learn the 書き順 of each kana and kanji, and then, you can
tell the difference in the stroke direction and from the context. Yup,
there are many small details for you to pay attention to. I think Jim
has a good 書き順 practice webpage. Learn the correct stroke orders.
You can recognize さ from ち, so you did it! You just keep on
discovering the technique to separate one from another. It may take
time, but you got to do it. I think you are fine because you are aware
of general problems. Those people who become unable to read foreign
language have no interest in the language and don't want to make efforts
to learn it.
Cindy
> Clear I ain't, pedantic I are, begging the question that wasn't. BTW,
> what was my intellectual might supposed to be an example of?
あなたの場合はまったくたちが悪い。日本語には興味あるけど勉強はしたくない
タイプ。どっか別のグループへ行ったら？
Paul Blay
Dan Rempel
> Dan Rempel wrote:
>
>
>> Clear I ain't, pedantic I are, begging the question that wasn't. BTW,
>> what was my intellectual might supposed to be an example of?
>
>
>
Actually, I _do_ study Japanese; I just don't speak it very well. Why
does that make my situation pathetic, or preclude me posting here?
Dan
Dan Rempel
Don't worry Paul; she thought the thread was entitled "Are there
dyspeptic Japanese?"
Dan
Doug Wickstrom
<630b8e5503f4ccd2...@grapevine.islandnet.com>
Dan Rempel <dre...@islandnet.com> caused electrons to dance and
photons to travel coherently in saying:
You might have explained, for the English usage challenged, what
"begging the question" is.
To "beg the question," is to use a circular argument.
Ultimately, it comes down to the form of "something is something
because it is something.
Rolomail, your example doesn't "beg" the question you pose, it
"raises" the question.
--
Doug Wickstrom <nims...@comcast.net>
"I am sorry that I have had to leave so many problems unsolved. I always
have to make this apology, but the world is rather puzzling and I cannot
help it." --Bertrand Russell
Now filtering out all cross-posted messages and everything posted
through Google News.
Konrad Viltersten
>> Konrad Viltersten wrote:
>>
>>> Is it possible to be a dislectic when reading or writing
>>> in japanese? Is that affected by the share of kanji in
>>> the text? If so - in what way?
>
Hardly. I decided not to proceed doing the university
course since my teacher seems to suffer from the
illusion that "not being present in the class" is the
equivalent of "not working with the subject", despite
the results. I go on my own since the summer.
What gave you the idea, anyway?
--
Vanligen
Dan Rempel
You're right: my response was probably unreasonably terse and possibly
rude, although it wasn't meant to be. You're also right in your
explanation of "begging the question"; thanks.
Dan
Travers Naran
Cindy wrote:
> Travers Naran wrote:
>
> > "Is it possible to be a dislectic when reading or writing
> > in japanese?"
>
> What am I supposed to do? To say "Yes" and it'll make everybody happy?
> Then, I have to say "Yes" to the people who has abnormalities in the
> hemisphere of the brain and the tracts (nerves) that dominates
> languages, shapes, and communications. That's dyslexia.
Paul & I are responding to your apparent insult of Konrad. Or you may
have been insulting others who may suffer from dyslexia. I admit it
was a little hard to tell which one you were insulting.
> > She then added, from her own prejudices: "... so I can explain why it's
> > so hard for me to learn Japanese".
>
> "Me"? Who is "me"?
"Konrad" because it looked like you were accusing him of being lazy and
was using his query about dyslexia to find an excuse.
> > She must have forgotten Konrad's native language is not English and he
> > often uses "odd" phrasing.
>
> I don't care who's native language is what. Why do I have to pay
> attention to Konrad's native language?
Bceause it looked like you thought he was looking for an excuse for
poor study habits.
> > It's a Cindy moment, which I've learn to accept. :-)
>
> That sounds pretty condescending.
So did you. You do realise your original post was an insult, right?
Arri London
Konrad Viltersten wrote:
>
> Is it possible to be a dislectic when reading or writing
> in japanese? Is that affected by the share of kanji in
> the text? If so - in what way?
>
> --
>
> V舅ligen
> Konrad
While not definitive: http://www.dyslexia-parent.com/z118.html
There was an article some years back in a journal (possibly 'Science')
comparing how dyslexia differs in alphabetic languages versus Japanese
and Chinese.
Louise Bremner
> I repeat - dyslexia is a disorder (disease) that a physician has to
> diagnose.
> ...
> Those people who become unable to read foreign language have no interest
> in the language and don't want to make efforts to learn it.
I'm glad I've never met you in person.
________________________________________________________________________
Louise Bremner (log at gol dot com)
If you want a reply by e-mail, don't write to my Yahoo address!
Louise Bremner
<snip>
> These sort of things are a major stumbling block for dyslexics I think,
> especially mirror image forms and rotations.
I had similar problems with kana (still do, in fact). I can remember
having similar problems in English, but the nun in charge of the first
year hadn't heard of fancy words like "dyslexia" so she just made me
repeat that year until I finally did get the hang of reading and
writing, but without making me feel retarded or diseased in any way.
Rolomail
<ceo (at) fat24.com> wrote:
I beg to differ with you.
Cindy
> Cindy <cindy1...@att.net> wrote:
>
>
>>I repeat - dyslexia is a disorder (disease) that a physician has to
>>diagnose.
>>...
>>Those people who become unable to read foreign language have no interest
>>in the language and don't want to make efforts to learn it.
>
>
> I'm glad I've never met you in person.
I'm glad I've never met you in person as well.