Are there dyslectic Japanese?
Konrad Viltersten
in japanese? Is that affected by the share of kanji in
the text? If so - in what way?
--
Vänligen
Konrad
---------------------------------------------------
Sleep - thing used by ineffective people
as a substitute for coffee
Ambition - a poor excuse for not having
enough sense to be lazy
---------------------------------------------------
Travers Naran
> Is it possible to be a dislectic when reading or writing
> in japanese? Is that affected by the share of kanji in
> the text? If so - in what way?
I'd like tho hear a definitive answer on this one. Last time it came
up, there were a lot of snide remarks, but I don't recall an answer.
There definitely is dyslexia because they even have a word for it: 失読症.
I'm curious to know how it affects reading/writing Japanese (the pages I
find w/ Google are way beyond my reading level).
Interesting, only 900 hits with the official word, and 14 900 hits for
ディスレクシア.
BTW, it's spelled dyslexic. (I resisted the obvious dyslexia joke)
Louise Bremner
> Konrad Viltersten wrote:
> > Is it possible to be a dislectic when reading or writing
> > in japanese? Is that affected by the share of kanji in
> > the text? If so - in what way?
>
> I'd like tho hear a definitive answer on this one. Last time it came
> up, there were a lot of snide remarks, but I don't recall an answer.
> There definitely is dyslexia because they even have a word for it: ???.
>
> I'm curious to know how it affects reading/writing Japanese
I've been told it affects kana more than kanji in reading, but both are
affected in writing.
> (the pages I find w/ Google are way beyond my reading level).
Oh goodie, another topic to investigate when I get a round tuit....
________________________________________________________________________
Louise Bremner (log at gol dot com)
If you want a reply by e-mail, don't write to my Yahoo address!
declan...@hotmail.com
> Is it possible to be a dislectic when reading or writing
> in japanese? Is that affected by the share of kanji in
> the text? If so - in what way?
There are dyslexic Japanese of course. The amount of kanji relative to
kana in text doesn't appear to be a consideration, at least amongst
post-secondary adults (I don't know anything about early
childhood/school age learners).
Interestingly we have had two foreigners with dyslexia enrol at Yamasa
and make it through the program without major dramas. 1 repeated a
term, but both made it past JLPT2 level and would probably pass JLPT1
if they continue their studies. If dyslexia doesn't prevent foreign
students from learning how to read and write Japanese, it shouldn't be
more of a problem for native speakers, at least in terms of learning
process.
Cindy
I won't believe anything until an MD diagnoses dyslexia because it's a
neurological disorder. Konrad's question is asking for an excuse for 勉
強不足. If I look at a Hebrew sentence or an Arabic sentence, I won't
be able to read and will be helpless. But, I am not dyslexic.
Cindy
> Travers Naran <tna...@no-more-virii-please.direct.ca> wrote:
>
>
>>Konrad Viltersten wrote:
>>
>>>Is it possible to be a dislectic when reading or writing
>>>in japanese? Is that affected by the share of kanji in
>>>the text? If so - in what way?
>>
>>I'd like tho hear a definitive answer on this one. Last time it came
>>up, there were a lot of snide remarks, but I don't recall an answer.
>>There definitely is dyslexia because they even have a word for it: ???.
>>
>>I'm curious to know how it affects reading/writing Japanese
>
>
> I've been told it affects kana more than kanji in reading, but both are
> affected in writing.
Kana is so easy; how can you go dyslexia? Well, now I know what drives
me to dyslexia -- Romaji. Romaji sentences may cause anaphylactic shock
on me.
Paul Blay
> I won't believe anything until an MD diagnoses dyslexia because it's a
> neurological disorder. Konrad's question is asking for an excuse for 勉
> 強不足. If I look at a Hebrew sentence or an Arabic sentence, I won't
> be able to read and will be helpless. But, I am not dyslexic.
Cindy, Cindy, Cindy. That's the closest you've been to going back to
my killfile for weeks.
Just how far out of your arse _did_ you pull that assumption?
Arekusu
> Louise Bremner
> Kana is so easy; how can you go dyslexia?
There is no dyslexia in a country when nobody is studying it.
But in Japan since 1997, some people begin to look at it.
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/education/kouza/english050303.htm
Even if hiragana are easy, some people cannot understand that a sign
means a sound.
In the developped countries, the official literacy rate of 99% is not
the actual reading ability rate. Unesco says in Europe about 10 -13% of
the adults can't read simple sentences. That must be about the same in
Japan for hiragana, more for kanjis. Just show a map to some people in
the street...
Arekusu
John W.
>
> Kana is so easy; how can you go dyslexia?
So is the letter E, but despite my age and work to correct things I
still have to think about it when hand writing. I've had a similar
problem with some kana.
John W.
Rolomail
<ceo (at) fat24.com> wrote:
> In the developped countries, the official literacy rate of 99% is not
> the actual reading ability rate. Unesco says in Europe about 10 -13% of
> the adults can't read simple sentences. That must be about the same in
> Japan for hiragana, more for kanjis. Just show a map to some people in
> the street...
At first glance, I found this statistic shocking... But then I thought...
The Standford IQ test allots 15 points per standard deviation, which in a
two tailed distribution, would put what? 18% of the populatin at an IQ less
than 85? I vaguely recall that an IQ of 85 can be used as a definition of
legally slow (at least in criminal defense). So, if only 13% of Europe's
population cannot read simple sentences, at least 5% of the population is
doing way better than expected... That is to say, at least 5% are reading
simple sentences real slowly, while 2/3 of the legally slow can't read
simple sentences at all.
(Begs the question, how do these developed countries come up with 99%
literacy rates? Are they excluding the naturally slow portions of their
populations?)
But we've also all read that the Japanese tend to score 15 points higher
than average on IQ tests... A full standard deviation higher than normal.
That would leave only 2% of their population with an IQ at 85 or less. I
assume Unesco couldn't find the same shockingly high percentage of Japanese
who cannot read simple sentences vis-a-vis Europeans or they would have
publicized that figure as well.
All speculative...
Cindy
> Cindy a écrit :
>
>> Louise Bremner
>> Kana is so easy; how can you go dyslexia?
>
>
> There is no dyslexia in a country when nobody is studying it.
>
> But in Japan since 1997, some people begin to look at it.
>
> http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/education/kouza/english050303.htm
>
> Even if hiragana are easy, some people cannot understand that a sign
> means a sound.
Have you been diagnosed as having a dyslexia?
> In the developped countries, the official literacy rate of 99% is not
> the actual reading ability rate. Unesco says in Europe about 10 -13% of
> the adults can't read simple sentences. That must be about the same in
> Japan for hiragana, more for kanjis. Just show a map to some people in
> the street...
Yeah, more for Kanji than hiragana usually.
I agree that a small percentage of people have a sort of disability in
learning in any country. Those people were pathologically diagnosed so.
Just because you can not read or write kana, that doesn't mean you are
dyslexic. Probably you will have to take several tests to be diagnosed.
If you are a fairly normal person who has had no accident to the
brain and there is no sign of dementia, you should be able to master
kana or any language. What seems a disability is a lack of enthusiasm
and repetitive practice. You need to spend time to practice what you
are learning. Also, if you are a perfectionist, learning experience
must be stressful to you because you are afraid of making mistakes. But
it doesn't make you dyslexic.
Travers Naran
She read the body and ignored the subject. Thus she assumed Konrad was
a native English speaker saying:
"Is it possible to be a dislectic when reading or writing
in japanese?"
She then added, from her own prejudices: "... so I can explain why it's
so hard for me to learn Japanese".
She must have forgotten Konrad's native language is not English and he
often uses "odd" phrasing.
It's a Cindy moment, which I've learn to accept. :-)
Cindy
> Paul Blay wrote:
>
>>"Cindy" <cindy1...@att.net> wrote ...
>>
>>>I won't believe anything until an MD diagnoses dyslexia because it's a
>>>neurological disorder. Konrad's question is asking for an excuse for 勉
>>>強不足. If I look at a Hebrew sentence or an Arabic sentence, I won't
>>>be able to read and will be helpless. But, I am not dyslexic.
>>
>>Cindy, Cindy, Cindy. That's the closest you've been to going back to
>>my killfile for weeks.
>>
>>Just how far out of your arse _did_ you pull that assumption?
>
>
> She read the body and ignored the subject. Thus she assumed Konrad was
> a native English speaker saying:
>
> "Is it possible to be a dislectic when reading or writing
> in japanese?"
What am I supposed to do? To say "Yes" and it'll make everybody happy?
Then, I have to say "Yes" to the people who has abnormalities in the
hemisphere of the brain and the tracts (nerves) that dominates
languages, shapes, and communications. That's dyslexia.
> She then added, from her own prejudices: "... so I can explain why it's
> so hard for me to learn Japanese".
"Me"? Who is "me"?
> She must have forgotten Konrad's native language is not English and he
> often uses "odd" phrasing.
I don't care who's native language is what. Why do I have to pay
attention to Konrad's native language?
> It's a Cindy moment, which I've learn to accept. :-)
That sounds pretty condescending.
Dan Rempel
> On 1/16/06 8:17, in article 43cb9ce5$0$2053$626a...@news.free.fr, "Arekusu"
> <ceo (at) fat24.com> wrote:
>> In the developped countries, the official literacy rate of 99% is not
>> the actual reading ability rate. Unesco says in Europe about 10 -13% of
>> the adults can't read simple sentences. That must be about the same in
>> Japan for hiragana, more for kanjis. Just show a map to some people in
>> the street...
>
> At first glance, I found this statistic shocking... But then I thought...
>
> The Standford IQ test allots 15 points per standard deviation, which in a
> two tailed distribution, would put what? 18% of the populatin at an IQ less
> than 85? I vaguely recall that an IQ of 85 can be used as a definition of
> legally slow (at least in criminal defense). So, if only 13% of Europe's
> population cannot read simple sentences, at least 5% of the population is
> doing way better than expected... That is to say, at least 5% are reading
> simple sentences real slowly, while 2/3 of the legally slow can't read
> simple sentences at all.
>
> (Begs the question,
Nope.
Dan
Dan Rempel
> Is it possible to be a dislectic when reading or writing
> in japanese? Is that affected by the share of kanji in
> the text? If so - in what way?
You have re-opened one of the favourite/infamous cans of worms around
here. I guess a short answer is that politically there is no dyslexia in
Japan: kanji processing is so different from alphabet processing that
dyslexia can't occur (one of my more idiotic linguistic instructors
claimed that kanji was "a holographic writing system"). But, since
Japanese people are about as human as everybody else, if dyslexia
exists, it must occur in the Japanese population, or so it seems to me.
Dan
Rolomail
18f2913a347a899f...@grapevine.islandnet.com, "Dan Rempel" <ceo
(at) fat24.com> wrote:
Take for example Dan's EDICT sized vocabulary, mental clarity, and pedantic
power...
infinity
> Kana is so easy; how can you go dyslexia? Well, now I know what drives
> me to dyslexia -- Romaji. Romaji sentences may cause anaphylactic shock
> on me.
Squiggly kana tend to look all alike (handwritten ち, わ and り look
much the same to me (handwritten ri really threw me at first due to the
two lines being joined in a big loop)), and some are mirror images of
one another which is confusing, it took me ages to tell さ from ち for
instance, in the end I managed to remember which way round chi was, and
was then able to identify sa because it "wasn't chi". Also katakana ニ
looks like hiragana こ, etc., also katakana シ/ツ ソ/ン differ only in
the angle of the strokes (I still have difficulty with those pairs).
These sort of things are a major stumbling block for dyslexics I think,
especially mirror image forms and rotations.
Dan Rempel
Clear I ain't, pedantic I are, begging the question that wasn't. BTW,
what was my intellectual might supposed to be an example of?
Dan
Paul Blay
> Travers Naran wrote:
>> It's a Cindy moment, which I've learn to accept. :-)
>
> That sounds pretty condescending.
シンディさんの英語力を甘く見たようです。
Cindy
I repeat - dyslexia is a disorder (disease) that a physician has to
diagnose. Certainly, it's intimidating for some people to be familiar
with those similar looking letters. This is why you need to practice.
You have to learn the 書き順 of each kana and kanji, and then, you can
tell the difference in the stroke direction and from the context. Yup,
there are many small details for you to pay attention to. I think Jim
has a good 書き順 practice webpage. Learn the correct stroke orders.
You can recognize さ from ち, so you did it! You just keep on
discovering the technique to separate one from another. It may take
time, but you got to do it. I think you are fine because you are aware
of general problems. Those people who become unable to read foreign
language have no interest in the language and don't want to make efforts
to learn it.
Cindy
> Clear I ain't, pedantic I are, begging the question that wasn't. BTW,
> what was my intellectual might supposed to be an example of?
あなたの場合はまったくたちが悪い。日本語には興味あるけど勉強はしたくない
タイプ。どっか別のグループへ行ったら？
Paul Blay
Dan Rempel
> Dan Rempel wrote:
>
>
>> Clear I ain't, pedantic I are, begging the question that wasn't. BTW,
>> what was my intellectual might supposed to be an example of?
>
>
>
Actually, I _do_ study Japanese; I just don't speak it very well. Why
does that make my situation pathetic, or preclude me posting here?
Dan
Dan Rempel
Don't worry Paul; she thought the thread was entitled "Are there
dyspeptic Japanese?"
Dan
Doug Wickstrom
<630b8e5503f4ccd2...@grapevine.islandnet.com>
Dan Rempel <dre...@islandnet.com> caused electrons to dance and
photons to travel coherently in saying:
You might have explained, for the English usage challenged, what
"begging the question" is.
To "beg the question," is to use a circular argument.
Ultimately, it comes down to the form of "something is something
because it is something.
Rolomail, your example doesn't "beg" the question you pose, it
"raises" the question.
--
Doug Wickstrom <nims...@comcast.net>
"I am sorry that I have had to leave so many problems unsolved. I always
have to make this apology, but the world is rather puzzling and I cannot
help it." --Bertrand Russell
Now filtering out all cross-posted messages and everything posted
through Google News.
Konrad Viltersten
>> Konrad Viltersten wrote:
>>
>>> Is it possible to be a dislectic when reading or writing
>>> in japanese? Is that affected by the share of kanji in
>>> the text? If so - in what way?
>
Hardly. I decided not to proceed doing the university
course since my teacher seems to suffer from the
illusion that "not being present in the class" is the
equivalent of "not working with the subject", despite
the results. I go on my own since the summer.
What gave you the idea, anyway?
--
Vanligen
Dan Rempel
You're right: my response was probably unreasonably terse and possibly
rude, although it wasn't meant to be. You're also right in your
explanation of "begging the question"; thanks.
Dan
Travers Naran
Cindy wrote:
> Travers Naran wrote:
>
> > "Is it possible to be a dislectic when reading or writing
> > in japanese?"
>
> What am I supposed to do? To say "Yes" and it'll make everybody happy?
> Then, I have to say "Yes" to the people who has abnormalities in the
> hemisphere of the brain and the tracts (nerves) that dominates
> languages, shapes, and communications. That's dyslexia.
Paul & I are responding to your apparent insult of Konrad. Or you may
have been insulting others who may suffer from dyslexia. I admit it
was a little hard to tell which one you were insulting.
> > She then added, from her own prejudices: "... so I can explain why it's
> > so hard for me to learn Japanese".
>
> "Me"? Who is "me"?
"Konrad" because it looked like you were accusing him of being lazy and
was using his query about dyslexia to find an excuse.
> > She must have forgotten Konrad's native language is not English and he
> > often uses "odd" phrasing.
>
> I don't care who's native language is what. Why do I have to pay
> attention to Konrad's native language?
Bceause it looked like you thought he was looking for an excuse for
poor study habits.
> > It's a Cindy moment, which I've learn to accept. :-)
>
> That sounds pretty condescending.
So did you. You do realise your original post was an insult, right?
Arri London
Konrad Viltersten wrote:
>
> Is it possible to be a dislectic when reading or writing
> in japanese? Is that affected by the share of kanji in
> the text? If so - in what way?
>
> --
>
> V舅ligen
> Konrad
While not definitive: http://www.dyslexia-parent.com/z118.html
There was an article some years back in a journal (possibly 'Science')
comparing how dyslexia differs in alphabetic languages versus Japanese
and Chinese.
Louise Bremner
> I repeat - dyslexia is a disorder (disease) that a physician has to
> diagnose.
> ...
> Those people who become unable to read foreign language have no interest
> in the language and don't want to make efforts to learn it.
I'm glad I've never met you in person.
________________________________________________________________________
Louise Bremner (log at gol dot com)
If you want a reply by e-mail, don't write to my Yahoo address!
Louise Bremner
<snip>
> These sort of things are a major stumbling block for dyslexics I think,
> especially mirror image forms and rotations.
I had similar problems with kana (still do, in fact). I can remember
having similar problems in English, but the nun in charge of the first
year hadn't heard of fancy words like "dyslexia" so she just made me
repeat that year until I finally did get the hang of reading and
writing, but without making me feel retarded or diseased in any way.
Rolomail
<ceo (at) fat24.com> wrote:
I beg to differ with you.
Cindy
> Cindy <cindy1...@att.net> wrote:
>
>
>>I repeat - dyslexia is a disorder (disease) that a physician has to
>>diagnose.
>>...
>>Those people who become unable to read foreign language have no interest
>>in the language and don't want to make efforts to learn it.
>
>
> I'm glad I've never met you in person.
I'm glad I've never met you in person as well.
Cindy
> infinity <dont...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>These sort of things are a major stumbling block for dyslexics I think,
>>especially mirror image forms and rotations.
>
>
> I had similar problems with kana (still do, in fact). I can remember
> having similar problems in English, but the nun in charge of the first
> year hadn't heard of fancy words like "dyslexia" so she just made me
> repeat that year until I finally did get the hang of reading and
> writing, but without making me feel retarded or diseased in any way.
I think that's totally normal. Practice makes perfect ... mmmm ...
rather - practice improves.
You may feel that you had a dyslexia, but you have never been diagnosed
as dyslexia yet. In a nut shell, your case wasn't that serious.
Louise Bremner
> Louise Bremner wrote:
>
> > infinity <dont...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >>These sort of things are a major stumbling block for dyslexics I think,
> >>especially mirror image forms and rotations.
> >
> >
> > I had similar problems with kana (still do, in fact). I can remember
> > having similar problems in English, but the nun in charge of the first
> > year hadn't heard of fancy words like "dyslexia" so she just made me
> > repeat that year until I finally did get the hang of reading and
> > writing, but without making me feel retarded or diseased in any way.
>
> I think that's totally normal. Practice makes perfect ... mmmm ...
> rather - practice improves.
You don't consider it odd that I needed a whole year of practice after
the others in the class had moved on? Starting with learning tricks to
distinguish left from right?
>
> You may feel that you had a dyslexia, but you have never been diagnosed
> as dyslexia yet. In a nut shell, your case wasn't that serious.
True, if it is indeed dyslexia. But then, I've met people who were
horrified I didn't get put into a remedial class.
Louise Bremner
Sean
I had a history professor who was dyslexic. She claimed that it extended to
often losing her car in parking lots, and constantly getting lost because
she would turn the wrong way when exiting a building. I don't know much
about dyslexia, but it seems that it is about more than just writing letters
back to front. So it should be able to interfere in all kinds of things,
including reading and writing that holographic jazz.
Sean
Brother, I fear we may have lost that philosophical term of art. Among the
crude masses, "begging the question" has come to mean "raising the
question."
I used to rip trees from the ground and batter houses into kindling whenever
I heard things like "I could care less" or "irregardless." Now, I just sigh
and listen to the thud of one more angel dropping dead.
j...@csse.monash.edu.au
>On 1/16/06 16:17, in article 43cc0c8d.686300390@localhost, "Doug Wickstrom"
>>
>> Ultimately, it comes down to the form of "something is something
>> because it is something.
>>
>> Rolomail, your example doesn't "beg" the question you pose, it
>> "raises" the question.
>I beg to differ with you.
Being a hardened pedant, I agree with Doug, however using
"beg the question" to mean "raise the question" is getting so common
it's hardly worth quibbling. Shades of "decimate" which meant "to
reduce *by* a tenth", but has come to mean "reduce *to* a tenth".
There's a nice discussion of question-begging at:
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-beg1.htm
--
Jim Breen http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/
Clayton School of Information Technology,
Monash University, VIC 3800, Australia
ジム・ブリーン@モナシュ大学
Louise Bremner
> I used to rip trees from the ground and batter houses into kindling
> I whenever heard things like "I could care less" ...
I've grown to like the thought of "I could care less", somehow. To me it
implies "if I really, really tried hard enough, I could just possibly
manage to care a tiny bit less, but it's too much bother".
I tend to twitch at "such <fitb> as" when I'd use "<fitb> such as" or
"according to" instead of "in accordance with".
Dan Rempel
> Rolomail <rolo...@verizon.net> dixit:
>> On 1/16/06 16:17, in article 43cc0c8d.686300390@localhost, "Doug Wickstrom"
>>> To "beg the question," is to use a circular argument.
>>> Ultimately, it comes down to the form of "something is something
>>> because it is something.
>>>
>>> Rolomail, your example doesn't "beg" the question you pose, it
>>> "raises" the question.
>
>> I beg to differ with you.
>
> Being a hardened pedant, I agree with Doug, however using
> "beg the question" to mean "raise the question" is getting so common
> it's hardly worth quibbling. Shades of "decimate" which meant "to
> reduce *by* a tenth", but has come to mean "reduce *to* a tenth".
>
> There's a nice discussion of question-begging at:
> http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-beg1.htm
I know the useage has probably shifted irrevocably (just like "dropping
the writ" now means "to call an election" here in Canada), but I still
have throw the occasional protest in. I guess it's largely because I'm
afraid that not only do people not know what the phrase means, they
don't know what circular reasoning _is_. Anyway, thanks for the
interesting link.
Dan
Dan Rempel
I share your fear, but still insist on occasionally raising my pedantic
sword, and letting it shine in the light of my mental clarity, in a
hopeful, albeit futile, protest, or something like that.
Dan
Dan Rempel
I think the back to front letters thing may be the least part of
dyslexia, but I'm too lazy right now to come up with a reference.
Anyhoo, I think you're right on daddy-o with the comment about it
interfering with all sorts of things.
Dan
Doug Wickstrom
<BFF1AD8A.4BE0%rolo...@verizon.net>
Rolomail <rolo...@verizon.net> caused electrons to dance and
OK. Stand uncorrected if you wish. Ignorance is bliss, after
all, except when 'tis folly to be wise. You probably use
"flammable" instead of "inflammable," too, because, after all,
things that are _in_flammable won't burn.
Still and all, I'd be careful with open flames when near things
that are inflammable, and begging a question does _not_ raise it.
I hope you don't teach English.
--
Doug Wickstrom <nims...@comcast.net>
"We find two great gangs of political speculators, who alternately take
possession of the state power and exploit it by the most corrupt ends-the
nation is powerless against these two great cartels of politicians who are
ostensibly its servants, but in reality dominate it and plunder it."
--Friedrich Engels
Konrad Viltersten
> Konrad Viltersten wrote:
>>
>> Is it possible to be a dislectic when reading or writing
>> in japanese? Is that affected by the share of kanji in
>> the text? If so - in what way?
>
> There was an article some years back in a journal (possibly
> 'Science') comparing how dyslexia differs in alphabetic languages
> versus Japanese and Chinese.
Ah, i think this is what i was looking for.Thank you greatly.
John W.
> Still and all, I'd be careful with open flames when near things
> that are inflammable, and begging a question does _not_ raise it.
>
It does in my dictionary....
> I hope you don't teach English.
>
I think being able to teach such new usages is highly valuable in an
English teacher.
John W.
Arri London
Konrad Viltersten wrote:
>
> Arri London wrote:
> > Konrad Viltersten wrote:
> >>
> >> Is it possible to be a dislectic when reading or writing
> >> in japanese? Is that affected by the share of kanji in
> >> the text? If so - in what way?
> >
> > While not definitive: http://www.dyslexia-parent.com/z118.html
> > There was an article some years back in a journal (possibly
> > 'Science') comparing how dyslexia differs in alphabetic languages
> > versus Japanese and Chinese.
>
> Ah, i think this is what i was looking for.Thank you greatly.
>
> --
>
> Vanligen
> Konrad
YW. Tried to find the journal article but haven't succeeded.
Bart Mathias
> [...]
>
>
> Oh goodie, another topic to investigate when I get a round tuit....
Gosh, what shape is the one you have now?
Louise Bremner
Paul Blay
> Bart Mathias <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote:
>> Louise Bremner wrote:
>> > Oh goodie, another topic to investigate when I get a round tuit....
>>
>> Gosh, what shape is the one you have now?
>
> Knobbly.
They sell round tuits in Brighton (and probably tacky gift
shops all over the planet).
Sean
I guess your dictionary has "nukular" as an accepted form.
Paul Blay
You raise an interesting point which I shall actionize momentarily.
Louise Bremner
John W.
Websters wouldn't stoop so low. Also see www.dictionary.com; it's right
there in black and white. But since folks are too lazy to actually look
things up, I'll paste in what it says:
"In the 1990s, however, people sometimes used the phrase as a synonym
of "ask the question"...."
And the Oxford online (www.askoxford.com) says this:
"beg the question 1 (of a fact or action) invite a question or point
that has not been dealt with"
Usages can and usually do change over time.
John W.
Paul Blay
> Sean wrote:
>> I guess your dictionary has "nukular" as an accepted form.
>
> Websters wouldn't stoop so low. Also see www.dictionary.com; it's right
> there in black and white. But since folks are too lazy to actually look
> things up
I'm not - and there's no "nukular" there at all. Fibber.
Sean
True enough. In this case, the usage change is result of poor education and
wide spread ignorance. Perhaps that is usually the case.
Bart Mathias
> Paul Blay <ask_me_or_get...@saotome.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>"Louise Bremner" <trap_for_...@yahoo.com> wrote ...
>>
>>>Bart Mathias <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Louise Bremner wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Oh goodie, another topic to investigate when I get a round tuit....
>>>>
>>>>Gosh, what shape is the one you have now?
>>>
>>>Knobbly.
>>
>>They sell round tuits in Brighton (and probably tacky gift
>>shops all over the planet).
>
>
> Ewwwwww.... Brighton....
"Ewwwww" or not, my daughter goes there frequently, and I'm going to ask
her to check on them for me.
Bart
cobby_kun
had trouble when writing kana. she is japanese.
Louise Bremner
> Louise Bremner wrote:
> > Paul Blay <ask_me_or_get...@saotome.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>"Louise Bremner" <trap_for_...@yahoo.com> wrote ...
> >>
> >>>Bart Mathias <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>Louise Bremner wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>Oh goodie, another topic to investigate when I get a round tuit....
> >>>>
> >>>>Gosh, what shape is the one you have now?
> >>>
> >>>Knobbly.
> >>
> >>They sell round tuits in Brighton (and probably tacky gift
> >>shops all over the planet).
> >
> >
> > Ewwwwww.... Brighton....
>
> "Ewwwww" or not, my daughter goes there frequently, and I'm going to ask
> her to check on them for me.
I was at school near there for eight years, so my "Ewwwwww...." stands.
Sean
> Bart Mathias <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote:
>
>> Louise Bremner wrote:
>>>
>>> Ewwwwww.... Brighton....
>>
>> "Ewwwww" or not, my daughter goes there frequently, and I'm going to ask
>> her to check on them for me.
>
> I was at school near there for eight years, so my "Ewwwwww...." stands.
I very much like the Stray Cats song "Rumble in Brighton." Therefore, I like
Brighton, although I have never been there.
Did you have rumbles there?
Louise Bremner
Not personally--the real rumbles occurred long before I was allowed out
into town (and long before that song was written, too).
Bart Mathias
One more way I'm way ahead of you. I've been there TWICE!
Bart
Sean
And the second time was voluntary?
John J. Chew III
John W. <worth...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Websters wouldn't stoop so low. Also see www.dictionary.com; it's right
>there in black and white. But since folks are too lazy to actually look
>things up, I'll paste in what it says:
>
>"In the 1990s, however, people sometimes used the phrase as a synonym
>of "ask the question"...."
"synonym of?" Guh.
John
--
John Chew (poslfit on MD) * jjc...@math.utoronto.ca * http://www.poslfit.com
Rolomail
OoYyf.218863$V7.1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au, "j...@csse.monash.edu.au"
<ceo (at) fat24.com> wrote:
> Rolomail <rolo...@verizon.net> dixit:
>> On 1/16/06 16:17, in article 43cc0c8d.686300390@localhost, "Doug Wickstrom"
>>>
>>> To "beg the question," is to use a circular argument.
>>> Ultimately, it comes down to the form of "something is something
>>> because it is something.
>>>
>>> Rolomail, your example doesn't "beg" the question you pose, it
>>> "raises" the question.
>
>> I beg to differ with you.
>
> Being a hardened pedant, I agree with Doug, however using
> "beg the question" to mean "raise the question" is getting so common
> it's hardly worth quibbling. Shades of "decimate" which meant "to
> reduce *by* a tenth", but has come to mean "reduce *to* a tenth".
>
> There's a nice discussion of question-begging at:
> http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-beg1.htm
I never subscribed to the petitio principii meaning, because unlike you
pendantic snobs, I am a man of the people...
Rolomail
<ceo (at) fat24.com> wrote:
(If you can read), you would have by now seen Jim's link and read that my
usage is the common one, that the objections to its use are etymological,
historically ancient, and out of fashion, and you are in the dwindling
minority of elitists that nobody cares about, and nobody talks to anyway.
Join the human race idiot.
Louise Bremner
Rolomail
1h9ht68.a7g33m17rin00N%trap_for_...@yahoo.com, "Louise Bremner" <ceo
(at) fat24.com> wrote:
> Rolomail <rolo...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> On 1/16/06 21:13, in article
>> OoYyf.218863$V7.1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au, "j...@csse.monash.edu.au"
>> <ceo (at) fat24.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Rolomail <rolo...@verizon.net> dixit:
>>>> On 1/16/06 16:17, in article 43cc0c8d.686300390@localhost, "Doug Wickstrom"
>>>>>
>>>>> To "beg the question," is to use a circular argument.
>>>>> Ultimately, it comes down to the form of "something is something
>>>>> because it is something.
>>>>>
>>>>> Rolomail, your example doesn't "beg" the question you pose, it
>>>>> "raises" the question.
>>>
>>>> I beg to differ with you.
>>>
>>> Being a hardened pedant, I agree with Doug, however using
>>> "beg the question" to mean "raise the question" is getting so common
>>> it's hardly worth quibbling. Shades of "decimate" which meant "to
>>> reduce *by* a tenth", but has come to mean "reduce *to* a tenth".
>>>
>>> There's a nice discussion of question-begging at:
>>> http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-beg1.htm
>>
>> I never subscribed to the petitio principii meaning, because unlike you
>> pendantic snobs, I am a man of the people...
>
> Any relation of Humpty-Dumpty?
Why no Alice... You?
Sean
> Rolomail <rolo...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> On 1/16/06 21:13, in article
>> OoYyf.218863$V7.1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au, "j...@csse.monash.edu.au"
>> <ceo (at) fat24.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Rolomail <rolo...@verizon.net> dixit:
>>>> On 1/16/06 16:17, in article 43cc0c8d.686300390@localhost, "Doug Wickstrom"
>>>>>
>>>>> To "beg the question," is to use a circular argument.
>>>>> Ultimately, it comes down to the form of "something is something
>>>>> because it is something.
>>>>>
>>>>> Rolomail, your example doesn't "beg" the question you pose, it
>>>>> "raises" the question.
>>>
>>>> I beg to differ with you.
>>>
>>> Being a hardened pedant, I agree with Doug, however using
>>> "beg the question" to mean "raise the question" is getting so common
>>> it's hardly worth quibbling. Shades of "decimate" which meant "to
>>> reduce *by* a tenth", but has come to mean "reduce *to* a tenth".
>>>
>>> There's a nice discussion of question-begging at:
>>> http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-beg1.htm
>>
>> I never subscribed to the petitio principii meaning, because unlike you
>> pendantic snobs, I am a man of the people...
>
> Any relation of Humpty-Dumpty?
>
Since we're playing fast and loose with meaning, I choose take "the people"
to mean "hooting apes."
So, now that "the people" have absconded with a very useful term of art and
turned into one of their screeches, what are we to do when we actually want
to say that someone is actually begging the question?
Doug Wickstrom
<BFF676A2.4C8E%rolo...@verizon.net>
>I never subscribed to the petitio principii meaning, because unlike you
>pendantic snobs, I am a man of the people...
That's "pedantic."
--
Doug Wickstrom <nims...@comcast.net>
"For all I knew, Marc Rich and his wife were Republicans." --Bill Clinton
Now filtering out all cross-posted messages and everything posted
through Google News.
Louise Bremner
> On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 16:14:44 GMT, in message
> <BFF676A2.4C8E%rolo...@verizon.net>
> Rolomail <rolo...@verizon.net> caused electrons to dance and
> photons to travel coherently in saying:
>
> >I never subscribed to the petitio principii meaning, because unlike you
> >pendantic snobs, I am a man of the people...
>
> That's "pedantic."
It is, indeed.
j...@csse.monash.edu.au
>Doug Wickstrom <nims...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 16:14:44 GMT, in message
>> <BFF676A2.4C8E%rolo...@verizon.net>
>> Rolomail <rolo...@verizon.net> caused electrons to dance and
>> photons to travel coherently in saying:
>> >I never subscribed to the petitio principii meaning, because unlike you
>> >pendantic snobs, I am a man of the people...
>>
>> That's "pedantic."
>It is, indeed.
I was rather amused by the mental image of a pendantic snob.
--
Jim Breen http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/
Clayton School of Information Technology,
Monash University, VIC 3800, Australia
ジム・ブリーン@モナシュ大学
Dan Rempel
> Louise Bremner <trap_for_...@yahoo.com> dixit:
>
>>Doug Wickstrom <nims...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 16:14:44 GMT, in message
>>><BFF676A2.4C8E%rolo...@verizon.net>
>>> Rolomail <rolo...@verizon.net> caused electrons to dance and
>>>photons to travel coherently in saying:
>>>
>>>>I never subscribed to the petitio principii meaning, because unlike you
>>>>pendantic snobs, I am a man of the people...
>>>
>>>That's "pedantic."
>
>
>>It is, indeed.
>
>
> I was rather amused by the mental image of a pendantic snob.
Would that be a snob who appreciates hanging, or a hanging snob?
Dan
j...@csse.monash.edu.au
Dan Rempel
> Dan Rempel <dre...@islandnet.com> dixit:
>
>>j...@csse.monash.edu.au wrote:
>>
>>>Louise Bremner <trap_for_...@yahoo.com> dixit:
>>>
>>>>Doug Wickstrom <nims...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 16:14:44 GMT, in message
>>>>><BFF676A2.4C8E%rolo...@verizon.net>
>>>>>Rolomail <rolo...@verizon.net> caused electrons to dance and
>>>>>photons to travel coherently in saying:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I never subscribed to the petitio principii meaning, because unlike you
>>>>>>pendantic snobs, I am a man of the people...
>>>>>
>>>>>That's "pedantic."
>>>
>>>>It is, indeed.
>>>
>>>I was rather amused by the mental image of a pendantic snob.
>
>
>>Would that be a snob who appreciates hanging, or a hanging snob?
>
>
> The latter. Elongated and on a cord around someone's neck.
I see; a dependent snob. Since most of the snobs around here seem pretty
independent, I don't think we have to worry about not being one of
Rolomail's persons of the people, whoever they are.
Dan
Dan Rempel
Well, we could just say "circular reasoning," but the whole thing begs
the question of how the people got away from their pendantic work
writing Shakespeare in their room full of typewriters.
Dan
Sean
"He is reasoning circularly." "Your argument circles reason." I dunno. I
think I'll keep the old term and continue to taunt the apes.
Dan Rempel
Works for me, although I do like "your argument circles reason." Kinda
reminds me of old dusters, circling the wagons, and all that.
Dan
Dan Rempel
Sorry to respond to my own post, but I like this better all the time.
Just imagine the dialogue: "Uh, oh, there's a whole passel a them
pendantic snobs a comin' our way. Jake, you circle the arguments and
I'll set up the straw men!"
Dan
Sean
> Dan Rempel wrote:
>> Sean wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/21/06 7:37 AM, "Dan Rempel" typed:
>>>
>>>>
>>> "He is reasoning circularly." "Your argument circles reason." I dunno. I
>>> think I'll keep the old term and continue to taunt the apes.
>>
>>
>> Works for me, although I do like "your argument circles reason." Kinda
>> reminds me of old dusters, circling the wagons, and all that.
>
> Sorry to respond to my own post, but I like this better all the time.
> Just imagine the dialogue: "Uh, oh, there's a whole passel a them
> pendantic snobs a comin' our way. Jake, you circle the arguments and
> I'll set up the straw men!"
>
> Dan
Yes, it's an attack on the fort by Begging Question and his warriors. The
cavalry commander suffers an arrow in the a posteriori.
Paul Blay
> On 1/22/06 3:12 PM, "Dan Rempel" typed:
>> Dan Rempel wrote:
>>> Works for me, although I do like "your argument circles reason." Kinda
>>> reminds me of old dusters, circling the wagons, and all that.
>>
>> Sorry to respond to my own post, but I like this better all the time.
>> Just imagine the dialogue: "Uh, oh, there's a whole passel a them
>> pendantic snobs a comin' our way. Jake, you circle the arguments and
>> I'll set up the straw men!"
>
> cavalry commander suffers an arrow in the a posteriori.
Begging Question leads a personal attack on on the middle ground but falls
foul of a slippery slope and ends up stuck in the water hole. The attacking
division having been made with quesionable cause fails and he's left to
special pleading but ignoring a common cause the cavalry leaves him there to
die, poisoning the well.
Dan Rempel
Later that same scene: "Don't you worry none Missy. With mah EDICT sized
vocabulary, mental clarity, and pedantic power, I'll take care ah you."
Dan
Dan Rempel
Do you suppose we can get HBO to back a mini-series of this?
Dan
Rolomail
72d6f38ec2b2f1db...@grapevine.islandnet.com, "Dan Rempel" <ceo
(at) fat24.com> wrote:
Think "Girls Gone Wild" only with a bunch of idiotic geeks.
Dan Rempel
Why would I want to do a silly thing like that?
Dan
John W.
> Think "Girls Gone Wild" only with a bunch of idiotic geeks.
Nerds Gone Nuts?
John W.
Rolomail
1138368948.1...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "John W." <ceo (at)
fat24.com> wrote:
Has a ring to it...
Paul Blay
> Rolomail wrote:
>
>> Think "Girls Gone Wild" only with a bunch of idiotic geeks.
>
> Nerds Gone Nuts?
Otaku out of their gourds?
Louise Bremner
Some years ago, a certain user on a certain BBS used the .sig:
"Otaku wa tsurai yo!"
Sean
> Paul Blay <ask_me_or_get...@saotome.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> "John W." <worth...@yahoo.com> wrote ...
>>> Rolomail wrote:
>>>
>>>> Think "Girls Gone Wild" only with a bunch of idiotic geeks.
>>>
>>> Nerds Gone Nuts?
>>
>> Otaku out of their gourds?
>
> Some years ago, a certain user on a certain BBS used the .sig:
>
> "Otaku wa tsurai yo!"
>
That's brilliant.
Paul Blay
> On 1/27/06 6:11 AM, "Louise Bremner" typed:
>>
> That's brilliant.
And sadly I've only just got it.
Was it deliberate?
Rolomail
If I'm getting it, I don't get why its funny, so I must not be. Maybe if it
was written in Japanese it would be clearer.
Paul Blay
> On 1/27/06 11:49, in article "Paul Blay" <ceo (at) fat24.com> wrote:
>> "Sean" <not...@notmyemail.com> wrote ...
>>> On 1/27/06 6:11 AM, "Louise Bremner" typed:
>>>> "Otaku wa tsurai yo!"
>>>>
>>> That's brilliant.
>>
>> And sadly I've only just got it.
>>
>> Was it deliberate?
>
> If I'm getting it, I don't get why its funny, so I must not be. Maybe if it
> was written in Japanese it would be clearer.
Well if I'm right (not guaranteed) then this is roughly the equivalent
of the old
"The peasants are revolting!" "They certainly are."
and they
"You must admit he's trying" "He certainly is"
jokes.
In other words
おたくは辛い。 = It's a hard life being an otaku. / Otaku are a pain.
I'm sure somebody will be along to correct me if required.
Sean
I just thought the play on the title of the long-running movie series was
clever. So, now any humour that was in it has been effectively quashed.
Louise Bremner
> I just thought the play on the title of the long-running movie series was
> clever. So, now any humour that was in it has been effectively quashed.
Yup. Maybe you need to have sat through several of the very, very
similar films, to "get" it?
Doug Wickstrom
<1h9uisg.hzfzr4ryorggN%trap_for_...@yahoo.com>
trap_for_...@yahoo.com (Louise Bremner) caused electrons
to dance and photons to travel coherently in saying:
>Paul Blay <ask_me_or_get...@saotome.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> "John W." <worth...@yahoo.com> wrote ...
>> > Rolomail wrote:
>> >
>> >> Think "Girls Gone Wild" only with a bunch of idiotic geeks.
>> >
>> > Nerds Gone Nuts?
>>
>> Otaku out of their gourds?
>
>Some years ago, a certain user on a certain BBS used the .sig:
>
> "Otaku wa tsurai yo!"
Snarf!
--
Doug Wickstrom <nims...@comcast.net>
"Old age brings pleasant memories, sometimes of things that really happened."
--Don Kirkman
Now filtering out all cross-posted messages and everything posted
through Google News.
Doug Wickstrom
<BFFFECA7.4D33%rolo...@verizon.net>
Rolomail <rolo...@verizon.net> caused electrons to dance and
photons to travel coherently in saying:
>On 1/27/06 11:49, in article drdiv4$g1o$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk, "Paul
Google "otoko wa tsurai yo"
--
Doug Wickstrom <nims...@comcast.net>
Fandom is the focus. Science Fiction is the filter.
Dan Rempel
> On 1/27/06 11:49, in article drdiv4$g1o$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk, "Paul
> Blay" <ceo (at) fat24.com> wrote:
>
>
>>"Sean" <not...@notmyemail.com> wrote ...
>>
>>>On 1/27/06 6:11 AM, "Louise Bremner" typed:
>>>
>>>> "Otaku wa tsurai yo!"
>>>>
>>>
>>>That's brilliant.
>>
>>And sadly I've only just got it.
>>
>>Was it deliberate?
>
>
> If I'm getting it, I don't get why its funny, so I must not be.
I know what you meant, but what you said is 当たり fer shurr.
> Maybe if it
> was written in Japanese it would be clearer.
Dan
B. Ito
"Doug Wickstrom" <nims...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:43dcd55f.169852750@localhost...
> On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 20:28:41 GMT, in message
> <BFFFECA7.4D33%rolo...@verizon.net>
> Rolomail <rolo...@verizon.net> caused electrons to dance and
> photons to travel coherently in saying:
>
>>On 1/27/06 11:49, in article drdiv4$g1o$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk, "Paul
>>Blay" <ceo (at) fat24.com> wrote:
>>
>>> "Sean" <not...@notmyemail.com> wrote ...
>>>> On 1/27/06 6:11 AM, "Louise Bremner" typed:
>>>>> "Otaku wa tsurai yo!"
>>>>>
>>>> That's brilliant.
>>>
>>> And sadly I've only just got it.
>>>
>>> Was it deliberate?
>>
>>If I'm getting it, I don't get why its funny, so I must not be. Maybe if
>>it
>>was written in Japanese it would be clearer.
>
> Google "otoko wa tsurai yo"
"Otaku wa tsurai yo."
"Otoko wa tsurai yo."
"Otaku" and "Otoko", yes they are both "tsurai" because people other
than "Otaku" and "Otoko" consider it is easy to stay or enjoy as "Otoko"
or "Otaku."
"Otoko ni wa otoko no, otaku ni wa otaku no tsurasa ga ru."
----------------------------------------
B. Ito