what does "hona" in Shikoku Dialect equate to?
Pope Emperor FrogMaN
I got a new penfriend, she wrote me yesterday, and she is from Kochi
in Shikoku, and she said she only knows the Shikoku dialect, and can't
even really read regular Japanese (regular meaning the most widely
spoken -- is there a name for that? I refer to it as Tokyo Japanese,
but I know that can't be right) very well. Anyways, she signed her
message with "Hona sainara" and I was wondering what "hona" equated to
in Mainly-Spoken-and-I-don't-know-its-name Japanese? Are there other
syntax/phonic changes that one knows about that I should be aware of?
sainara = sayounara, that's an easy one.
Strange -- the word "hona" is widely used in Hawaiian & Polynesian. I
wonder if the words are related?
I asked this girl to help me learn the Shikoku dialect. I'm curious
now about the differences between that and the
i-don't-know-the-name-of-the-most-widely-spoken-japanese-and-hopefully-someone-will-
help-me-learn-it-so-i-can-stop-writing-these-stupid-hyphenated-sentences
Japanese.
Domo arigatou gozaimasu.
===========================================================
Pope Emperor FrogMaN the Zermacroyd Guavahead, XXXQ,
the vile illegitimate spawn of competence.
Get your sorry ass over to http://home.earthlink.net/~rtoad
Do it now.
Read the Bathroom Wall! Write for the Bathroom Wall!
http://home.earthlink.net/~rtoad/zine.html
BW email -- bath...@lart.com
COO Stormtrooper
===========================================================
Sean Holland
Pope Emperor FrogMaN wrote:
(snip)
> in Mainly-Spoken-and-I-don't-know-its-name Japanese? (snip)
Pope Emperor FrogMaN
<seho...@islandnet.com> spelled out in toothpicks:
>Try "Standard Japanese". Or "NHK Japanese".
Kakkoii! Domo arigatou gozaimasu.
Chris S.
Pope Emperor FrogMaN <popellus_...@lart.com> wrote:
> I got a new penfriend, she wrote me yesterday, and she is from Kochi
> in Shikoku, and she said she only knows the Shikoku dialect, and can't
Just how common are monolingual Japanese speakers who can't speak a word
of the standard dialect? I was assuming that almost every adult was
proficient in it.. But to me, it reflects the Philippines where a great
majority cannot speak Tagalog well.
Or maybe she didn't pay attention to her standard Japanese class
<shrug>.
--Chris
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Pope Emperor FrogMaN
<van...@my-deja.com> spelled out in toothpicks:
>In article <8krkdsgj4i7rkq8ef...@4ax.com>,
> Pope Emperor FrogMaN <popellus_...@lart.com> wrote:
>
>> I got a new penfriend, she wrote me yesterday, and she is from Kochi
>> in Shikoku, and she said she only knows the Shikoku dialect, and can't
>
>Just how common are monolingual Japanese speakers who can't speak a word
>of the standard dialect? I was assuming that almost every adult was
>proficient in it.. But to me, it reflects the Philippines where a great
>majority cannot speak Tagalog well.
Or at all. I work with a Filipino guy who can't speak Tagalog one
bit. The first day he worked, the pretty filipina girl i work with
tried speaking tagalog to him, and he just shook his head, so they
speak in english. He speaks Visalia.
Michael Cash
<popellus_...@lart.com> wrote:
>Hello.
>
>I got a new penfriend, she wrote me yesterday, and she is from Kochi
>in Shikoku, and she said she only knows the Shikoku dialect, and can't
>even really read regular Japanese (regular meaning the most widely
>spoken -- is there a name for that? I refer to it as Tokyo Japanese,
>but I know that can't be right) very well. Anyways, she signed her
>message with "Hona sainara" and I was wondering what "hona" equated to
>in Mainly-Spoken-and-I-don't-know-its-name Japanese? Are there other
>syntax/phonic changes that one knows about that I should be aware of?
>
>sainara = sayounara, that's an easy one.
>
>Strange -- the word "hona" is widely used in Hawaiian & Polynesian. I
>wonder if the words are related?
I would guess it's a contracted and contorted local equivalent of "sore ja"
(from "sore de ha", of course). Just a guess. I've never been to Shikoku.
I would also guess that she heard about you from some of the other Japanese
penfriends you have who are so thoroughly enjoying having you on, and decided
she'd like to yank the gullible gaijin's chain a bit as well.
Do you really think you're meeting people with at least enough brains to be able
to turn a computer on and figure out how to get to wherever it is you meet them,
yet who are so stupid they can't read romaji or can't read stardard Japanese? I
wasn't aware that Japanese was read differently in Shikoku. Do the book
publishers put out special Shikoku editions just for them?
Holiness, if somebody yanked my chain as much as they yank yours, I believe my
collar would have begun to chafe just a bit by now.
Michael Cash
"I have heard, Mr. Cash, that when God was handing out brains
you became indignant at receiving one with so many wrinkles
and handed it back to him, demanding a nice new smooth one
instead. Why is it that I have no trouble believing that?"
Prof. Ernest T. Bass
Mount Pilot College
"The hospital just called with the results of your CAT scan,
Mr. Cash. It seems they discovered some raised lettering on
the surface of your brain warning of a potential choking
hazard to children under 3 years of age."
Prof. Ernest T. Bass
Mount Pilot College
Jed Rothwell
> I got a new penfriend, she wrote me yesterday, and she is from Kochi
> in Shikoku, and she said she only knows the Shikoku dialect, and can't
> even really read regular Japanese . . .
Nonsense.
>Anyways, she signed her
> message with "Hona sainara" and I was wondering what "hona" equated to . .
.
Hona => Hon nara => sore nara. (Sore zya)
I have noticed the initial "s" is dropped from other words in Yamaguchi and
Shikoku dialects, especially:
hou dee => sou ka
- Jed
John W.
>
> > I got a new penfriend, she wrote me yesterday, and she is from Kochi
> > in Shikoku, and she said she only knows the Shikoku dialect, and
can't
>
word
> of the standard dialect? I was assuming that almost every adult was
> proficient in it..
>
standard Japanese that much, though they probably understand it. My
wife's mother is from Sayo and has a really strong accent. After so
long not speaking standard Japanese, people turn it off and forget it.
For younger people, I think it's a more or less conscious choice to not
speak standard Japanese as a way to fit in or something.
John W.
--
'Pyle, you have been reborn, reborn hard' Full Metal Jacket
I'll bet you're the kinda guy that would
f*** a person in the ass and not even have the
GD common courtesy to give him a reach-around.
"God has a hard-on for Marines. Because
we kill everything we see" -- Full Metal Jacket
The world is as large or small as our minds -- me
"Don't piss down my back and tell me it's rainin'" Josey Wales
Gerald B Mathias
: I got a new penfriend, she wrote me yesterday, and she is from Kochi
: in Shikoku, and she said she only knows the Shikoku dialect, and can't
: even really read regular Japanese (regular meaning the most widely
: spoken -- is there a name for that? I refer to it as Tokyo Japanese,
: but I know that can't be right) very well. Anyways, she signed her
: message with "Hona sainara" and I was wondering what "hona" equated to
: in Mainly-Spoken-and-I-don't-know-its-name Japanese? Are there other
: syntax/phonic changes that one knows about that I should be aware of?
: sainara = sayounara, that's an easy one.
: Strange -- the word "hona" is widely used in Hawaiian & Polynesian. I
: wonder if the words are related?
Ironically, it is *literally* equivalent to "sayoo-nara" = "if so." But
so is "jaa" in "Jaa, sayonara" a near synonym.
Shikoku Japanese has features of Kansai Japanese and Kyushu. Kochi is
particularly interesting in that (at least back in the fifties) the
"yotsumoji" were still distinguished ("zi" vs. "di," "zu" vs. "du") as in
parts of Kyushu. "Ei" is (was?) pronounced with an "i" instead of as
"ee." I don't know how general this is, but I had a student from there
whose mother reportedly called her "yo-u-ko" instead of "yo-o-ko" when she
was angry.
Sounds like a fun dialect.
Bart
Chris S.
> bit. The first day he worked, the pretty filipina girl i work with
> tried speaking tagalog to him, and he just shook his head, so they
> speak in english. He speaks Visalia.
It's Visayan. :) Anyway, since he's from Visaya (especially Cebu) he
may know how to speak Tagalog, but not want to speak it. Cebuanos don't
like the idea that a language with a lesser number of native (as opposed
to second language) speakers is chosen as the basis of the national
language. But yes, there are many many Filipinos who can't speak
Tagalog.
--Chris
Pope Emperor FrogMaN
etb...@mtpilot.edu (Michael Cash) spelled out in toothpicks:
>Do you really think you're meeting people with at least enough brains to be able
>to turn a computer on and figure out how to get to wherever it is you meet them,
I dunno -- WebTV people are pretty stupid. Most them *can't* turn on
a computer. True story -- we hired this woman who claimed that she
had all this computer experience -- a big, fat lady and we had to get
a special chair for her to fit in, but that's irrelevant -- but she
didn't even know how to use a mouse. She just looked at it. And said
"what's this?" We thought she was joking. But she was dead serious.
>Holiness, if somebody yanked my chain as much as they yank yours, I believe my
>collar would have begun to chafe just a bit by now.
Of course, I kind of deserve it - I figured one was messing with me,
so I started teaching her screwy, weird english, claiming that many
Americans like to rhyme their sentences. Not very nice, I know, but I
chuckle at the fact that there is a girl somewhere in Sapporo who is
speaking in rhyming english. Probably not in actuality, but it would
be funny...
John W.
> etb...@mtpilot.edu (Michael Cash) spelled out in toothpicks:
>
> >Do you really think you're meeting people with at least enough brains to be able
> >to turn a computer on and figure out how to get to wherever it is you meet them,
>
> I dunno -- WebTV people are pretty stupid. Most them *can't* turn on
> a computer. True story -- we hired this woman who claimed that she
> had all this computer experience -- a big, fat lady and we had to get
> a special chair for her to fit in, but that's irrelevant -- but she
> didn't even know how to use a mouse. She just looked at it. And said
> "what's this?" We thought she was joking. But she was dead serious.
>
In my last company, this girl had gone through supposedly a lot of computer
classes, including spreadsheets and MS Access. Her first day she asked how to
turn on the computer, how to turn on the monitor (I was surprised she didn't
ask how to turn on the mouse...), and where to find the program files to do
work.
John W.
--
'Pyle, you have been reborn, reborn hard' Full Metal Jacket
I'll bet you're the kinda guy that would
f*** a person in the ass and not even have the
GD common courtesy to give him a reach-around.
"God has a hard-on for Marines. Because
we kill everything we see" -- Full Metal Jacket
The world is as large or small as our minds -- me
"Don't piss down my back and tell me it's rainin'" Josey Wales
Don Kirkman
article <fo5mds85retgguvbe...@4ax.com>:
>On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 06:22:11 GMT, in sci.lang.japan Chris S.
><van...@my-deja.com> spelled out in toothpicks:
>>In article <8krkdsgj4i7rkq8ef...@4ax.com>,
>> Pope Emperor FrogMaN <popellus_...@lart.com> wrote:
>>> I got a new penfriend, she wrote me yesterday, and she is from Kochi
>>> in Shikoku, and she said she only knows the Shikoku dialect, and can't
>>Just how common are monolingual Japanese speakers who can't speak a word
>>of the standard dialect? I was assuming that almost every adult was
>>proficient in it.. But to me, it reflects the Philippines where a great
>>majority cannot speak Tagalog well.
>Or at all. I work with a Filipino guy who can't speak Tagalog one
>bit. The first day he worked, the pretty filipina girl i work with
>tried speaking tagalog to him, and he just shook his head, so they
>speak in english. He speaks Visalia.
Oooh, bad combination--that's a mongrelization of 49er, California
Rancher, Dust Bowl, and Giant Farm Corporation, with a tinge of
Bakersfield Bluegrass thrown in. I cain't even go home no more cuz
nobody'd understan' me. I wonder how my Filipino nephew-in-law is
gettin' along up there?
--
Don
The Internet proves that a million monkeys at a million keyboards couldn't
reproduce the works of Shakespeare.
Annie
>message with "Hona sainara" and I was wondering what "hona" equated to
>in Mainly-Spoken-and-I-don't-know-its-name Japanese? Are there other
>syntax/phonic changes that one knows about that I should be aware of?
>
>sainara = sayounara, that's an easy one.
>
>Strange -- the word "hona" is widely used in Hawaiian & Polynesian. I
>wonder if the words are related?
Hona Sainara <- sore nara sayounara <- soredewa sayounara
In Kansai, /s/ sometimes change to /h/.
sorede -> hon'de or hoide
soushitara -> hoshitara
shimashou -> shimahyo-> shimaho
_Hona_ mata wakaran koto oshitara, kiitokureyasu. (Kyoto Dialect)
(Soredewa mata wakarnai koto ga arimashitara, kiite kudasai)
(Please feel free to ask me if you have any more question.)
Wakaru koto doshitara ooshie _shimaho_.
(Wakaru koto deshitara ooshie shimashou.)
I'll tell you if I can.
--
Annie
mailto:ann...@gol.com
Gerald B Mathias
: I dunno -- WebTV people are pretty stupid. Most them *can't* turn on
: a computer. True story -- we hired this woman who claimed that she
: had all this computer experience -- a big, fat lady and we had to get
: a special chair for her to fit in, but that's irrelevant -- but she
: didn't even know how to use a mouse. She just looked at it. And said
: "what's this?" We thought she was joking. But she was dead serious.
I had nine years of computing experience before I turned on my first
computer.
But there are lots of computer "experts" nowadays who wouldn't have the
slightest idea how to punch a deck of hollerith cards or use a card
reader.
Bart
Mike Wright
Yep. My son had to do that in his college computer classes, but by the
time I arrived a couple of years later, they'd done away with all
that. I was *so* happy.
--
Mike Wright
http://www.CoastalFog.net
_____________________________________________________
"China is a big country, inhabited by many Chinese."
-- Charles de Gaulle
Reuben Muns
>Just how common are monolingual Japanese speakers who can't speak a word
>of the standard dialect?
I have only met one, back around 1963. A waitress in Osaka who
spoke only Kansai-ben. A guy from Marubeni Iida who is
"bilingual" translated between my Kanto and her Kansai.
Reuben
Reuben Muns
>It's Visayan. :) Anyway, since he's from Visaya (especially Cebu) he
>may know how to speak Tagalog, but not want to speak it.
I have a friend who is happily married to a "mail-order bride"
who speaks Visayan, but not Tagalog.
Reuben
Pope Emperor FrogMaN
<mat...@uhunix3.its.hawaii.edu> spelled out in toothpicks:
>Pope Emperor FrogMaN <popellus_...@lart.com> wrote:
>
>: I dunno -- WebTV people are pretty stupid. Most them *can't* turn on
>: a computer. True story -- we hired this woman who claimed that she
>: had all this computer experience -- a big, fat lady and we had to get
>: a special chair for her to fit in, but that's irrelevant -- but she
>: didn't even know how to use a mouse. She just looked at it. And said
>: "what's this?" We thought she was joking. But she was dead serious.
>
>I had nine years of computing experience before I turned on my first
>computer.
>
>But there are lots of computer "experts" nowadays who wouldn't have the
>slightest idea how to punch a deck of hollerith cards or use a card
>reader.
LOL! We still have machines at my work that we have to punch cards.
Some programs take 100s of cards. Sad thing is, I'm 30 and these
machines are older than me. And there are some people there who can't
figure out a PC worth diddily -- but when someone quotes RECENT
experience and doesn't even know how to use a mouse, then you know
that they're pretty much BSing.
Though even us bonafied computer geeks were illiterate at one point.
Windows and DOS is just a recent phenomenon for me -- I was a Mac and
Sun Sparc person. And SGI. I was forced to bow to the dark side of
computing when I took a job at Xerox in 1995 & got a DOS crash course
from my sister's boyfriend. But I never told them that I knew DOS or
windows -- when they hired me I made that perfectly clear, and they
didn't care, they just wanted someone who knew TCP/IP & Appletalk &
could translate French documents & English documents into French
(France-french & Belgium-french, not Canadian-french).
Pope Emperor FrogMaN
<van...@my-deja.com> spelled out in toothpicks:
>In article <fo5mds85retgguvbe...@4ax.com>,
> Pope Emperor FrogMaN <popellus_...@lart.com> wrote:
>> Or at all. I work with a Filipino guy who can't speak Tagalog one
>> bit. The first day he worked, the pretty filipina girl i work with
>> tried speaking tagalog to him, and he just shook his head, so they
>> speak in english. He speaks Visalia.
>
>It's Visayan. :) Anyway, since he's from Visaya (especially Cebu) he
>may know how to speak Tagalog, but not want to speak it.
He doesn't know Tagalog because he said so himself. He said that
Tagalog is required in school, but he forgot most of it. And he said
that I probably knew more Tagalog than he did. I thought he was
joking at first, but he was dead serious.
It kind of sounds like what happens with the Japanese & English --
they are required to learn English, but most of them forget it because
they don't use it. I know this girl Michika who came over here to
visit her brother, and she couldn't get a room because a) she could
barely speak English, and b) she could not pronounce the English "R"
sound, and apparently the desk person was a non-english speaker as
well.
> Cebuanos don't
>like the idea that a language with a lesser number of native (as opposed
>to second language) speakers is chosen as the basis of the national
>language. But yes, there are many many Filipinos who can't speak
>Tagalog.
That's the reason why a lot of Spanish-speaking people who come to the
U.S. won't learn English because they feel that English is an inferior
language. The Hispanic Community in my town raised a giant stink
because they abolished bilingual education in the county I live in --
Riverside County -- as well as Orange County -- and said that kids who
can't speak English have to learn it pretty damn quick or they will be
held back until they become proficient. Many Hispanics had a big
march & protest about it. The ironic thing -- their signs were in
English. That kind of killed their point.
Prince Richard Kaminski
Pope Emperor FrogMaN wrote:
> Hello.
>
> I got a new penfriend, she wrote me yesterday, and she is from Kochi
> in Shikoku, and she said she only knows the Shikoku dialect, and can't
> even really read regular Japanese (regular meaning the most widely
> spoken -- is there a name for that?
hyoujungo.
But there are very few Japanese people who are illiterate, so if he or she appears to be
claiming not to be able to read Japanese, then they are maybe indicating something else.
Perhaps they want to write to you in English, to practice their English, rather than
have you practice your Japanese. This is quite a common phenomenon in Japan.
> I refer to it as Tokyo Japanese,
> but I know that can't be right) very well. Anyways, she signed her
> message with "Hona sainara" and I was wondering what "hona" equated to
> in Mainly-Spoken-and-I-don't-know-its-name Japanese? Are there other
> syntax/phonic changes that one knows about that I should be aware of?
>
> sainara = sayounara, that's an easy one.
>
> Strange -- the word "hona" is widely used in Hawaiian & Polynesian. I
> wonder if the words are related?
>
> I asked this girl to help me learn the Shikoku dialect. I'm curious
> now about the differences between that and the
> i-don't-know-the-name-of-the-most-widely-spoken-japanese-and-hopefully-someone-will-
> help-me-learn-it-so-i-can-stop-writing-these-stupid-hyphenated-sentences
> Japanese.
Well, I don't see the point of learning particular dialects unless you are living in the
area where that dialect is spoken. Surely it's better to invest your effort in learning
a version of the language that will be understood by "everyone". I'm interested in
dialects myself, so don't get me wrong. It's just a question of priorities.
Prince Richard Kaminski
"Chris S." wrote:
> In article <8krkdsgj4i7rkq8ef...@4ax.com>,
> Pope Emperor FrogMaN <popellus_...@lart.com> wrote:
>
> > I got a new penfriend, she wrote me yesterday, and she is from Kochi
> > in Shikoku, and she said she only knows the Shikoku dialect, and can't
>
> Just how common are monolingual Japanese speakers who can't speak a word
> of the standard dialect? I was assuming that almost every adult was
> proficient in it.. But to me, it reflects the Philippines where a great
> majority cannot speak Tagalog well.
Really? I didn't realise this. What do they speak then?
Prince Richard Kaminski
Pope Emperor FrogMaN wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 12:37:16 GMT, in sci.lang.japan
> etb...@mtpilot.edu (Michael Cash) spelled out in toothpicks:
>
> >Do you really think you're meeting people with at least enough brains to be able
> >to turn a computer on and figure out how to get to wherever it is you meet them,
>
> I dunno -- WebTV people are pretty stupid. Most them *can't* turn on
> a computer. True story -- we hired this woman who claimed that she
> had all this computer experience -- a big, fat lady and we had to get
> a special chair for her to fit in, but that's irrelevant -- but she
> didn't even know how to use a mouse. She just looked at it. And said
> "what's this?" We thought she was joking. But she was dead serious.
It says something about a company that *hires* people like that then! LOL!
Don Kirkman
<8bj5oi$jc7$2...@news.hawaii.edu>:
>Pope Emperor FrogMaN <popellus_...@lart.com> wrote:
>: I dunno -- WebTV people are pretty stupid. Most them *can't* turn on
>: a computer. True story -- we hired this woman who claimed that she
>: had all this computer experience -- a big, fat lady and we had to get
>: a special chair for her to fit in, but that's irrelevant -- but she
>: didn't even know how to use a mouse. She just looked at it. And said
>: "what's this?" We thought she was joking. But she was dead serious.
>I had nine years of computing experience before I turned on my first
>computer.
>But there are lots of computer "experts" nowadays who wouldn't have the
>slightest idea how to punch a deck of hollerith cards or use a card
>reader.
From working in the college registration line I got so I could read
those cards v e r y slowly, but that was three decades or so before I
sat down at a computer anywhere. I held out till the latest Apple II+
came along.
Chris S.
I meant as a "second language..." But that ranges from only
understanding it to being proficient.
> Really? I didn't realise this. What do they speak then?
After Tagalog, here are the other languages spoken there (almost in
order of # of speakers):
Cebuano, Ilocano, Hiligaynon (Ilonggo), Bicolano, Waray-Waray,
Kapampangan, Pangasinan, Sambal, Maguindanao, Ibanag, Tausug, etc.
Ethnologue has more:
http://www.sil.org/ethnologue/countries/Phil.html
--Chris
Pope Emperor FrogMaN
Kaminski <richard....@lineone.net> spelled out in toothpicks:
>
>
>"Chris S." wrote:
>
>> In article <8krkdsgj4i7rkq8ef...@4ax.com>,
>> Pope Emperor FrogMaN <popellus_...@lart.com> wrote:
>>
>> > I got a new penfriend, she wrote me yesterday, and she is from Kochi
>> > in Shikoku, and she said she only knows the Shikoku dialect, and can't
>>
>> Just how common are monolingual Japanese speakers who can't speak a word
>> of the standard dialect? I was assuming that almost every adult was
>> proficient in it.. But to me, it reflects the Philippines where a great
>> majority cannot speak Tagalog well.
>
>Really? I didn't realise this. What do they speak then?
IIRC there are a ton of dialects that are spoken in the Phillipines.
And most of these dialects are incompatible with one another --
meaning that a person who speaks one dialect cannot be understood by
another who speaks another dialect -- at least as far as the major
categories go. Many major dialects are subdivided into minor
dialects. Meaning that someone who lives in northern mindinao might
speak one minor dialect whereas someone in central mindinao might
speak another minor dialect, but both these fall under the Minor
dialect category -- in this case Manobo. EX: Chris speaks Bisaya,
and Jenny speaks Waray. Chris and Jenny will not understand each
other, so hopefully they both can speak Tagalog, or Filipino, or
English so they can communicate. English is required learning in the
Phillipines. Filipino is the national language, and it is based on
Tagalog. I work with a guy named Rudy who is in his 50s, and he was a
linguist over in the Phillipines and can speak most of the major
dialects, and he said that someone can go nearly everywhere in the
Phillipines and speak English and they will be understood.
Here is a rundown on the dialects/languages that I can remember
offhand:
Tagalog
Filipino -- which is based on Tagalog
Pilipino
Waray
Hiligaynon -- also known as Ilongo
Cebuano
Bisaya
Legal documents in the Phillipines are written in Spanish. I don't
know what language the high courts & government is conducted in. It
used to be Spanish, but now probably Filipino.
However, Spanish is still spoken in some parts of the Phillipines.
English
Ibanag
Gaddang-Dumagat
Pangasinic
Kalinga-itneg
Ilocano
hilagang
Unclassified -- this is spoken in the Cebuan sector, and is
categorized under the Cebuano major.
(Japanese) kazoku = banay (bisaya)
(Japanese) kazoku = ginikaana (Hiligaynon)
(Japanese) kazoku = pamilya (tagalog)
"pamilya" is very close to the Spanish "familia." Tagalog has heavy
Spanish roots.
EX. = asul = azul = blue.
cotse = coche = car
kabayo = caballo = horse
tio = tio = uncle
tia = tia = aunt
melon = melon
mangga = mango
braso = brazo = arm
elepante = elefante = elephant
pabo = pavo = turkey
kamustaka? = Como esta? = how are you?
(this phrase is usally answered with: mabuti ("I'm fine") or
nakakaeros naman (still surviving))
That's about the extent of my knowledge of Tagalog. It's 6 AM and
I've been up since 10 AM yesterday so I am very tired.
Chris S.
Pope Emperor FrogMaN <popellus_...@lart.com> wrote:
E.. gomen nasai.. I know this is offtopic..
> IIRC there are a ton of dialects that are spoken in the Phillipines.
> And most of these dialects are incompatible with one another --
Yes, I there are dialects in the Philippines.. But I wouldn't go as far
as saying that Ilocano and Cebuano are dialects. The Tagalog-dominated
government uses this term to lessen the importance of the rest of the
languages. I know how difficult and futile it is to debate over what is
a dialect and what is a language. (taken a look at sci.lang?)
But, the differences between Tagalog and Ilocano are greater than say,
Spanish and Portuguese. When I, a Tagalog speaker, encountered Ilocano
in a grammar book, I expected learning it would be a peace of cake.
Wrong! It was like trying to learn Japanese for the first time. :) I
know Spanish as a 2nd language, but yet it was a piece of cake to learn
French & Portuguese. Weird, eh? Even a closer language like Bicol I
couldn't grasp it well. Maybe I should treat it as something unrelated,
and foreign.. rather than something I think I know how to speak.. but
that's another matter.
Anway, the whole dialect thing makes ordinary people think that Cebuano,
Ilocano, etc. are only variants of Tagalog... Which isn't true. They
all have their own certain grammatical features, phonemes, dialects of
their own.. things like that.
> dialect category -- in this case Manobo. EX: Chris speaks Bisaya,
> and Jenny speaks Waray. Chris and Jenny will not understand each
Waray is Bisaya. But Bisaya is not always Waray.
Bisaya (Visayan) is more of a language family rather than a concrete
language itself. It includes: Cebuano, Hiligaynon, Waray, Aklanon,
Romblonon, Capiznon.. and a buncha others.
> Tagalog. I work with a guy named Rudy who is in his 50s, and he was a
> linguist over in the Phillipines and can speak most of the major
> dialects, and he said that someone can go nearly everywhere in the
You mean polyglot, di ba? :) Yeah, lots of old-timers speak more than 3
languages. My great-aunt speaks 6.. my great-grandmothers spoke 7-9.
It's common that you'll find people who speak at least 2.
> Phillipines and speak English and they will be understood.
That's why I think Tagalog should be scrapped as the national and
official tongue of the Philippines. The local languages should be
promoted on a provincial scale, while English should be the sole
official language. It makes sense... Every Filipino will be on equal
footing. The Tagalogs won't have the advantage. Now don't get me wrong,
I'm a native Tagalog speaker myself. But maybe it's my non-Tagalog side
(I'm part Cebuano, Ibanag, and Bicolano as well) that's making me think
this. :)
> Filipino -- which is based on Tagalog
> Pilipino
Bleah, I'd say they're Tagalog in disguise. :)
> Legal documents in the Phillipines are written in Spanish. I don't
> know what language the high courts & government is conducted in. It
> used to be Spanish, but now probably Filipino.
Not anymore. Spanish was gone when the Americans took over. And in the
1970's, Spanish was not required for high school. English is the
language of commerce and government. Though I think Pres. Estrada wants
to change this. Though somewhere in the constitution, IIRC, Spanish and
Arabic were to be promoted in some cases.. But I don't think it is.
> However, Spanish is still spoken in some parts of the Phillipines.
By a very small minority... However, people do speak a Spanish creole
called Chabacano. Some people speak a form of it called Caviteño in
Cavite. And Zamboanga City is Chabacano-dominated. It's Spanish in
vocabulary and Filipino in grammar.
The Chinese community speaks Hokkien... and we have a lot of Hokkien
words in Tagalog: Susi (key), lumpia (eggroll), kuya (older brother),
etc.
Prince Richard Kaminski
"Chris S." wrote:
> In article <38DE8D56...@lineone.net>,
> Prince Richard Kaminski <richard....@lineone.net> wrote:
> > > majority cannot speak Tagalog well.
>
> I meant as a "second language..." But that ranges from only
> understanding it to being proficient.
>
> > Really? I didn't realise this. What do they speak then?
>
> After Tagalog, here are the other languages spoken there (almost in
> order of # of speakers):
>
> Cebuano, Ilocano, Hiligaynon (Ilonggo), Bicolano, Waray-Waray,
> Kapampangan, Pangasinan, Sambal, Maguindanao, Ibanag, Tausug, etc.
I see. Thanks!
>
>
> Ethnologue has more:
>
> http://www.sil.org/ethnologue/countries/Phil.html
>
The above will be enough to keep me busy for a while!
Prince Richard Kaminski
Pope Emperor FrogMaN wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Mar 2000 23:21:11 +0100, in sci.lang.japan Prince Richard
> Kaminski <richard....@lineone.net> spelled out in toothpicks:
>
> >
> >
> >"Chris S." wrote:
> >
> >> In article <8krkdsgj4i7rkq8ef...@4ax.com>,
> >> Pope Emperor FrogMaN <popellus_...@lart.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > I got a new penfriend, she wrote me yesterday, and she is from Kochi
> >> > in Shikoku, and she said she only knows the Shikoku dialect, and can't
> >>
> >> Just how common are monolingual Japanese speakers who can't speak a word
> >> of the standard dialect? I was assuming that almost every adult was
> >> proficient in it.. But to me, it reflects the Philippines where a great
> >> majority cannot speak Tagalog well.
> >
> >Really? I didn't realise this. What do they speak then?
>
> IIRC there are a ton of dialects that are spoken in the Phillipines.
> And most of these dialects are incompatible with one another --
> meaning that a person who speaks one dialect cannot be understood by
> another who speaks another dialect -- at least as far as the major
> categories go. Many major dialects are subdivided into minor
> dialects. Meaning that someone who lives in northern mindinao might
> speak one minor dialect whereas someone in central mindinao might
> speak another minor dialect, but both these fall under the Minor
> dialect category -- in this case Manobo. EX: Chris speaks Bisaya,
> and Jenny speaks Waray. Chris and Jenny will not understand each
> other, so hopefully they both can speak Tagalog, or Filipino, or
> English so they can communicate. English is required learning in the
> Phillipines. Filipino is the national language, and it is based on
> Tagalog. I work with a guy named Rudy who is in his 50s, and he was a
> linguist over in the Phillipines and can speak most of the major
> dialects, and he said that someone can go nearly everywhere in the
> Phillipines and speak English and they will be understood.
>
> Here is a rundown on the dialects/languages that I can remember
> offhand:
>
> Tagalog
> Filipino -- which is based on Tagalog
> Pilipino
> Waray
> Hiligaynon -- also known as Ilongo
> Cebuano
> Bisaya
> Legal documents in the Phillipines are written in Spanish. I don't
> know what language the high courts & government is conducted in. It
> used to be Spanish, but now probably Filipino.
> However, Spanish is still spoken in some parts of the Phillipines.
Thanks a lot for providing me with so much information, Pope! I didn't know
much of this at all. It's been a real education for me, and thanks for that!
Pope Emperor FrogMaN
<van...@my-deja.com> spelled out in toothpicks:
>In article <j3mudss39kl7e4kk5...@4ax.com>,
> Pope Emperor FrogMaN <popellus_...@lart.com> wrote:
>
>E.. gomen nasai.. I know this is offtopic..
>Yes, I there are dialects in the Philippines.. But I wouldn't go as far
>as saying that Ilocano and Cebuano are dialects. The Tagalog-dominated
>government uses this term to lessen the importance of the rest of the
>languages. I know how difficult and futile it is to debate over what is
>a dialect and what is a language. (taken a look at sci.lang?)
I was simplifying it for people who aren't really familiar with the
languages of the Phillipines. If I wanted to go into a great
linguistic analysis I would, but this is not the group for that and is
extremely OT.
>But, the differences between Tagalog and Ilocano are greater than say,
>Spanish and Portuguese. When I, a Tagalog speaker, encountered Ilocano
>in a grammar book, I expected learning it would be a peace of cake.
>Wrong! It was like trying to learn Japanese for the first time. :)
LOL! I tried learning Visaya after having a working knowledge of
Tagalog, and I encountered the same thing. Tagalog was sort of easy
for me because of the heavy Spanish influence.
>I
>know Spanish as a 2nd language, but yet it was a piece of cake to learn
>French & Portuguese. Weird, eh?
Not really -- I picked up French and Portuguese very easily after I
had learned Spanish. Because the languages are very similar to one
another, and many cognates exist which make them easier to learn once
knowledge of another one exists.
>You mean polyglot, di ba? :) Yeah, lots of old-timers speak more than 3
>languages. My great-aunt speaks 6.. my great-grandmothers spoke 7-9.
>It's common that you'll find people who speak at least 2.
He's pretty impressive, actually. I found some very old pre-spanish
Bisaya poetry, and he could read them, even though the other guy could
not, the one who speaks Visaya. Rudy told me what actualy dialect
they were in, but I forgot the name. He laughed when he saw it, and
asked where I had gotten it from. The web, I answered. They were
fishing & children's songs. One was about a poisonous spider. The
other one was about catching fish & eating them. They were written in
old pre-spanish script. One of them even sort of looks like a mix
between Arabic & Thai, even to the point of the diacritical marks
above & below the letter.
>That's why I think Tagalog should be scrapped as the national and
>official tongue of the Philippines. The local languages should be
>promoted on a provincial scale, while English should be the sole
>official language. It makes sense... Every Filipino will be on equal
>footing. The Tagalogs won't have the advantage. Now don't get me wrong,
>I'm a native Tagalog speaker myself. But maybe it's my non-Tagalog side
>(I'm part Cebuano, Ibanag, and Bicolano as well) that's making me think
>this. :)
>
>> Filipino -- which is based on Tagalog
>> Pilipino
>
>Bleah, I'd say they're Tagalog in disguise. :)
What is the difference? You can email me privately if you do not want
to use up more group bandwith discussing OT.
>By a very small minority... However, people do speak a Spanish creole
>called Chabacano. Some people speak a form of it called Cavite?o in
>Cavite. And Zamboanga City is Chabacano-dominated. It's Spanish in
>vocabulary and Filipino in grammar.
I'm not familiar with Chabacano and Cavite. I was relaying what Rudy
had told me, and he said that many older people were taught Spanish
and understand it. But young people aren't really taught it anymore,
Spanish replaced by English. I asked the filipina girl what languages
she was taught in school, and she said Tagalog and English. I asked
the guy, and he said Spanish and English! BUt no Filipino? I asked.
He said he didn't bother learning it because he never used it.
Interesting. The male is 19. The girl is 24.
>The Chinese community speaks Hokkien... and we have a lot of Hokkien
>words in Tagalog: Susi (key), lumpia (eggroll), kuya (older brother),
>etc.
I don't know anything about Hokkien. I'm curious about that now.
However I have to put that off because I am having enough trouble with
Japanese and Thai. I am learning Thai right now because I am helping a
Thai girl who just came to the U.S. with her English. That's the
advantage of living near a university with a renknowned ESL program --
the place is swarming with Asian people -- mainly females which
strikes me as interesting, but understandable, and a lot of them would
like a native English speaker to help them with their English. And a
lot of them are willing to exchange languages. That's how I learned
Tagalog, and that's how I learned some Vietnamese also.
www.bisaya.com is a good site on the Bisayan languages. There is also
a site that gives a good overview of languages of the Phillipines, but
I lost the URL.
Jed Rothwell
> _Hona_ mata wakaran koto oshitara, kiitokureyasu. (Kyoto Dialect)
OOoooo! Kyoto-ben. Goodness! Maybe I should not say this in our Politically
Correct era, but that has to be the world's sexiest way of talking. Yikes,
what a turn-on. See the first 15 minutes of the movie "Sasame yuki," with
the argument scene: "Ikemahen!" I cannot tell if those actresses were the
real thing but it sure sounded good to me. Such languor. The only thing in
American English close to it are certain deep South southern accents. It
must be the warm weather . . .
- Jed
Sean Holland
Yes, but the winter in Kyoto can be as cold as a pawn broker's heart.
s_y...@my-deja.com
Kyoto folks CAN be as cold to casual visitors, or "yoso-mon" even in the
midst of their sweltering, unbearably humid weather of the summer. I'm not
implicating Annie, of course. :-)
--
Sho
Ross Klatte
>Date: 2000-03-27 21:19 Eastern Standard Time
雨がながれる
清水坂
好きな人にも涙みせずに
かくれて
京都の女は 生きるために泣く
Hiroshi Kakeda
We don't use NHK Japanese. Standard Japanese is best.
Hona means so in English, "Soredewa" in Standard Japanese.
All Japanese can understand standard Japanese.
But sometimes people who live in countryside or not Kanto-area
have trouble with speaking or writing standard English.
Specially, Kansai area has strong dialect.
And they don't try to speak standard Japanese.
But Japanese can understand each other even
speaking different dialect.
Most dialect is just different accent and little different usage of words or words.
Reuben Muns
>Most dialect is just different accent and little different usage of words or words.
Differences like "tsukarete" and "shindoi" are more than just
different accents.
Reuben
Michael Cash
>But Japanese can understand each other even
>speaking different dialect.
That is wishful thinking on your part. I know of and have witnessed instances of
Japanese from different areas not being able to understand another's dialect.
>
>Most dialect is just different accent and little different usage of words or words.
And much of some dialects seems to consist of using completely different words
for some items.
Michael Cash
"Ohayou gozaimasu"
Ben Bullock
Note: the following URL is *NOT* Ben Bullock's homepage
I repeat, it is *NOT* Ben Bullock's homepage. The images
there are *NOT* Ben Bullock, nor are they the images of
any of his relatives.
Read the *entire* page. Then reset your browser preferences
to not display images and read the guestbook.
http://www.goldenmoments.net/henrik/
Once again: It is *NOT* Ben Bullock's homepage. The images
there are *NOT* Ben Bullock, nor are they the images of
any of his relatives.
muchan
Hiroshi Kakeda wrote:
>
> Tokyo Japanese is "Tokyo-ben, Kantou-ben, Hyoujunngo(Standard Japanese).
> We don't use NHK Japanese. Standard Japanese is best.
>
> Hona means so in English, "Soredewa" in Standard Japanese.
>
> All Japanese can understand standard Japanese.
> But sometimes people who live in countryside or not Kanto-area
> have trouble with speaking or writing standard English.
>
For me, Tokyo-ben and Standard Japanese are two different things.
I mean, Tokyo people also has a strong "dialect" or colloqialism which
is not "Standard Japanese" every Japanese supposed to understand.
"What Tokyo does is right" is a Tokyo-centralism...
> Specially, Kansai area has strong dialect.
> And they don't try to speak standard Japanese.
And this strong dialect" has more authentic history...
> But Japanese can understand each other even
> speaking different dialect.
>
Japanese can understand each other most of time using Standard Japanese
with some regional accents... but...
muchan