setting global IME's default input?
David
"A" (English) input mode. How can I set it to kana mode?
Jim Smiley
if you have a non-Japanese keyboard,
1 double click on the IME icon on the task bar
2 you'll see an option box. Probably you've got 直接入力
3 change that to ひらがな
if you've got a Japanese keyboard, there'll be a couple of
keys, one below the ESC key and the other to the right of
the SPACE key, where you can change the input method to
ひらがな directly.
"David" <anon...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:uJYuOF2vAHA.273@cpmsnbbsa07...
Norman Diamond
news:9an3gd$l1u$1...@news01bf.so-net.ne.jp...
> "David" <anon...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:uJYuOF2vAHA.273@cpmsnbbsa07...
> >
> > Whenever I select MS global IME's Japanese input, it always start with
the
> > "A" (English) input mode. How can I set it to kana mode?
>
> 1 double click on the IME icon on the task bar
> 2 you'll see an option box. Probably you've got 直接入力
> 3 change that to ひらがな
That is the same as the way the real IME works. The current input mode can
be changed by exactly that method. However, the default input mode is still
"A" (Italian) input mode, i.e. it still starts with direct mode.
With the real IME, the default input mode can be changed by doing this:
right-click on the IME icon in the tray in the task bar, select Properties,
select the General tab, and in the Input Settings section there's a
pull-down menu for Default Input Mode. But, that also doesn't do what David
asked for. In mine the Default is set to Hiragana, but the real default is
still Direct.
In Microsoft Word there's an option to switch Japanese mode on and off
automatically when Word is started up and closed down. This is almost what
David is asking for, but it only works in one application. Also I don't
know if this option is available in the "Global" IME (where "Global" means
US unless you remember what kluges to make in the registry).
> if you've got a Japanese keyboard, there'll be a couple of
> keys, one below the ESC key and the other to the right of
> the SPACE key, where you can change the input method to
> ひらがな directly.
In my experience, a very old version of "Global" IME recognized those keys
under Windows 95 (i.e. "Global" didn't have to mean US in those days) but
that version stopped working in Windows 98 and Microsoft removed that
functionality from the newer version of "Global" (US) IME. Of course the
real IME still recognizes those keys all the time. Still doesn't change the
defaults though.
Rolf Leggewie
>> Whenever I select MS global IME's Japanese input, it always start
>> with the "A" (English) input mode. How can I set it to kana mode?
> if you have a non-Japanese keyboard,
> 1 double click on the IME icon on the task bar
> 2 you'll see an option box. Probably you've got 直接入力
> 3 change that to ひらがな
Thanks, Jim for the explanation. I guess what David wants to know (at
least that is what I am curious about) is how to make hiragana the
default so it is not necessary to change that every time MS-IME starts
up. If somebody knows a solution I'd be *very* interested to know.
Regards
Rolf
Jed Rothwell
> if you have a non-Japanese keyboard,
> 1 double click on the IME icon on the task bar
> 2 you'll see an option box. Probably you've got 直接入力
> 3 change that to ひらがな
This does not seem to work with the U.S. Win 2000 version of Japanese IME. I
did the steps you describe months ago, and I just repeated them to be sure.
Still, whenever I first turn on the Japanese IME, the input mode is "A"
(direct input).
I had an unrelated problem with the IME which I discussed in detail with a
Microsoft technician -- a Chinese woman who knew the Chinese IME better than
the Japanese. Anyway, I mentioned this default problem to her and she said
she would pass it on to the Japanese IME developers.
Other than that problem, this IME is remarkably good. I hate to admit it,
but Microsoft has outdone Ichitaro 6. The pop-up definitions which appear
next to some word pairs are helpful. In another thread, Collin McCulley was
asking about the different kanji for "itami":
傷み
痛み
悼み
The Microsoft IME pops up definitions for these. I am not sure I agree with
these particular definitions completely, but they are helpful. Here are
partial transcriptions of two of them:
痛み 痛苦「ねんざの痛みがひどい . . .
傷み 損傷、腐敗「果物の傷みがひどい . . .
- Jed
Kevin_Je
"Norman Diamond" <ndia...@nospam.wta.att.ne.jp> wrote in message
news:9aoi4b$bml$1...@newsflood.osaka.att.ne.jp...
On Windows the default input mode is really up to the application which can
set this via an API call (ImmSetConversionStatus). Word does this as does
other applications. In Access for example, you can create spreadsheets and
set which mode you want the IME to be in for each field.
Kevin_Je
"Norman Diamond" <ndia...@nospam.wta.att.ne.jp> wrote in message
news:9aoi4b$bml$1...@newsflood.osaka.att.ne.jp...
> news:9an3gd$l1u$1...@news01bf.so-net.ne.jp...
> > "David" <anon...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> > news:uJYuOF2vAHA.273@cpmsnbbsa07...
> > >
> In Microsoft Word there's an option to switch Japanese mode on and off
> automatically when Word is started up and closed down. This is almost
what
> David is asking for, but it only works in one application. Also I don't
> know if this option is available in the "Global" IME (where "Global" means
> US unless you remember what kluges to make in the registry).
>
Once again Norman, the best way to think of this is that you are typing
Japanese not English. It just so happens that the input method you're
using uses a keyboard layout matching the US keyboard layout. You can hack
around it of course but you'll get mixed results where keys are missing or
unknown. I suppose the IMEs could go to the trouble to enable you to use
all sorts of different keyboard layouts but then they'd also have to help
you map new keys to missing characters.
For people that speak Japanese, using the default layout shouldn't be a big
deal. When I was first learning Russian, I used an input method that let me
use the US keyboard layout to generate Russian characters. Eventually of
course I simply learned to use the cyrillic keyboard layout. If you want to
type the pound symbol, I suggest you switch keyboard layouts momentarily or
type in the unicode character code.
Jim Breen
>>Once again Norman, the best way to think of this is that you are typing
>>Japanese not English. It just so happens that the input method you're
>>using uses a keyboard layout matching the US keyboard layout.
Yes, after spending squillions on a generally laudable approach to
I18N, Microsoft goofed on this rather important step.
>>You can hack
>>around it of course but you'll get mixed results where keys are missing or
>>unknown. I suppose the IMEs could go to the trouble to enable you to use
>>all sorts of different keyboard layouts but then they'd also have to help
>>you map new keys to missing characters.
The error was to have the IME use the raw codes, then assume they were
always those of the default (US) layout. Properly engineered software
would have had all this configurable. Thus you have to either "hack
around", or go without.
>>For people that speak Japanese, using the default layout shouldn't be a big
>>deal.
Provided you are American. If you are in France or Germany, and using thelocal
keybords, tough titty.
>>When I was first learning Russian, I used an input method that let me
>>use the US keyboard layout to generate Russian characters. Eventually of
>>course I simply learned to use the cyrillic keyboard layout. If you want to
>>type the pound symbol, I suggest you switch keyboard layouts momentarily or
>>type in the unicode character code.
(a) true (b) irrelevant. (Reminds me of the joke about the pilot
lost in a fog over Seattle.)
--
Jim Breen [j...@aa.tufs.ac.jp http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/]
Visiting Professor, Institute for the Study of Languages and
Cultures of Asia and Africa
Tokyo University of Foreign Studies, Japan +81 3 5974 3880
Kevin_Je
"Jim Breen" <j...@nexus.csse.monash.edu.au> wrote in message
news:9au9jl$g0p$2...@towncrier.cc.monash.edu.au...
> Kevin_Je <kev...@seanet.com> dixit:
>
> >>Once again Norman, the best way to think of this is that you are typing
> >>Japanese not English. It just so happens that the input method you're
> >>using uses a keyboard layout matching the US keyboard layout.
>
> Yes, after spending squillions on a generally laudable approach to
> I18N, Microsoft goofed on this rather important step.
>
> >>You can hack
> >>around it of course but you'll get mixed results where keys are missing
or
> >>unknown. I suppose the IMEs could go to the trouble to enable you to
use
> >>all sorts of different keyboard layouts but then they'd also have to
help
> >>you map new keys to missing characters.
>
> The error was to have the IME use the raw codes, then assume they were
> always those of the default (US) layout. Properly engineered software
> would have had all this configurable. Thus you have to either "hack
> around", or go without.
>
Are you talking about the raw scan codes? I'm not seeing your point here
or how using those would make this any better. As to making this
configurable, users would still be confused about which keys to press and
the UI for a configurable Japanese keyboard, while no doubt useful to some,
wouldn't be something most people would want to use I suspect. It's all
about priorities. Invest in better conversion which will improve throughput
for millions or in developing little-used features useful to a tiny fraction
of the users...
And btw, this isn't just Microsoft. Most IMEs don't provide this kind of
customization.
Norman Diamond
news:td6254f...@corp.supernews.com...
> "Jim Breen" <j...@nexus.csse.monash.edu.au> wrote in message
> news:9au9jl$g0p$2...@towncrier.cc.monash.edu.au...
> > always those of the default (US) layout.
>
He is.
> I'm not seeing your point here
> or how using those would make this any better.
Obviously you and Microsoft don't see the point made by Dr. Breen, myself,
and others who have English or French or German or Japanese keyboards.
Using the raw scancodes sure wouldn't make this any better, because using
the raw scancodes is what causes the problem in the first place.
(Of course if Microsoft didn't use the raw scancodes then they could always
find some other way to screw up, as they do with device drivers and disk
partitioners, but in this case they did it by using raw scancodes.)
> As to making this
> configurable, users would still be confused about which keys to press and
> the UI for a configurable Japanese keyboard, while no doubt useful to some,
> wouldn't be something most people would want to use I suspect.
No, Je-san. If a machine has a Japanese keyboard and the Japanese IME can
be configured to recognize the keycaps laid out on a Japanese keyboard, only
you and Microsoft would be confused. If a machine has an English keyboard
and the Japanese IME can be configured to recognize the keycaps laid out on
an English keyboard, only you and Microsoft would be confused. Same for
French keyboard. Same for German keyboard. Get the idea yet? People who
buy computers in Japan, England, France, or Germany would not be confused at
all by the idea that a computer's input method might cooperate with the
computer's keyboard.
> It's all
> about priorities. Invest in better conversion which will improve throughput
> for millions or in developing little-used features useful to a tiny fraction
> of the users...
Right, only a tiny fraction of Microsoft's Japanese-speaking customers are
in England or France or Germany. Or in Japan too, if they use a
non-Japanese version of Lose98, Lose95, etc. Microsoft's Japanese-speaking
customers are in the US. That's why "Global" means "US". Well, the sarcasm
in this paragraph probably went over your head, so let me clear it up. You
and Microsoft are the only parties who really believe this crap.
> And btw, this isn't just Microsoft. Most IMEs don't provide this kind of
> customization.
I've seen kinput2 work with Japanese keyboards and US keyboards. I ought to
test if it works with English, French, and German keyboards. However, there
are other problems caused by this Windows[*] system taking raw scancodes
instead of letting the kernel convert them to keycodes. Some volunteers are
considering fixing this Windows[*] system. Maybe the maker of Broken
Windows[**] systems can't stop them.
[* X11 Windows was developed from Windows systems that existed before
Microsoft existed, let alone before Microsoft trademarked a word that
already had its correct technical meaning.]
[** Windows is a trademark of a maker of broken operating systems.]
Kevin_Je
The Global IME doesn't work with Japanese keyboards because it doesn't use
the Japanese keyboard driver. The reason is that the Global IME is
optimized for download size and compatibility across versions of Windows.
Unfortunate limitation - yes it is. But the Global IME will never satisfy a
person that does most of her computing in Japanese (and was never intended
to do so) since only a few programs support it. Most people with Japanese
keyboards are likely running Japanese versions of Windows. Or conversely,
very few people with a Japanese keyboard will need the Global IMEs. And
with Windows 2000 and Windows XP which support full East Asian input across
language versions of Windows, there's no reason to live with the Global IME
limitations.
Actually, IMEs on Windows don't use raw scan codes they use virtual keys.
And if you wanted to you can swap in other keyboard layouts as I've pointed
out in the past. The problem is that not every keyboard layout has the core
latin alphabet used by the input method for phonetic input. The IME would
have to provide UI to enable people to replace those missing keys with other
keys. If you're using a cyrillic keyboard layout for example, this makes
little sense. Now for Western European keyboard layouts this could be
accomplished pretty simply but very few people have asked for this feature.
My earlier point was that given unlimited resources and time, everything is
possible but in the real world, everything's about priorities. I'd
personally rather see the IME developers work on improving conversion
accuracy and performance. It's just not that hard to learn to use the
default keyboard layout (which so happens is a US keyboard layout) and if I
want to type French characters it's easy enough to use a French keyboard
layout.
Microsoft has not trademarked the "IME" term.
Ya know Norman and Dr Breen, as a practical matter you might want to ratchet
down the insults a wee bit. It's just makes it hard to have a conversation.
Jim Breen
>>The Global IME doesn't work with Japanese keyboards because it doesn't use
>>the Japanese keyboard driver.
Yep, and it doesn't use the French keyboard driver or the German keyboard
driver. It should not be called Global.
>>The reason is that the Global IME is
>>optimized for download size and compatibility across versions of Windows.
That sounds like Microsoft-speak for "broken".
>>Unfortunate limitation - yes it is. But the Global IME will never satisfy a
>>person that does most of her computing in Japanese (and was never intended
>>to do so) since only a few programs support it.
True, and irrelevant. We are talking about someone in France, who wants to
do just an occasional snippet of Japanese or Korean.
>>Most people with Japanese
>>keyboards are likely running Japanese versions of Windows. Or conversely,
>>very few people with a Japanese keyboard will need the Global IMEs. And
>>with Windows 2000 and Windows XP which support full East Asian input across
>>language versions of Windows, there's no reason to live with the Global IME
>>limitations.
Microsoft-speak for "OK, we blew it, but throw more money at us and we
have a product that will do what you want"
>>The problem is that not every keyboard layout has the core
>>latin alphabet used by the input method for phonetic input.
Wrong. They *do* have the "core latin alphabet", it's just not in the same
place as on a US keyboard; a fact that obviously escaped the awareness
of the developers of the Global (sic) IME.
>>The IME would
>>have to provide UI to enable people to replace those missing keys with other
>>keys.
What missing keys? For a French peson, the `A' is exactly where it should
be. It's only "missing" in a US-centric view of the world.
>>If you're using a cyrillic keyboard layout for example, this makes
>>little sense. Now for Western European keyboard layouts this could be
>>accomplished pretty simply but very few people have asked for this feature.
Well they have, and all they have got is abuse from MS acolytes.
>>It's just not that hard to learn to use the
>>default keyboard layout (which so happens is a US keyboard layout) and if I
>>want to type French characters it's easy enough to use a French keyboard
>>layout.
And people wonder why the French get uptight about American things.
>>Ya know Norman and Dr Breen, as a practical matter you might want to ratchet
>>down the insults a wee bit. It's just makes it hard to have a conversation.
Norman can speak for himself, but could you point out where I have been
insulting? Sarcasm, of course, but it's hard to avoid that when in
dialogue with someone defending one of MS's shoddier efforts.
Kevin_Je
> Kevin_Je <kev...@seanet.com> dixit:
>
> >>The Global IME doesn't work with Japanese keyboards because it doesn't
use
> >>the Japanese keyboard driver.
>
> Yep, and it doesn't use the French keyboard driver or the German keyboard
> driver. It should not be called Global.
It's Global because it works on all language versions of Windows and solves
a specific problem for a specific set of people. Perhaps "Basic IME" would
be a better name.
>
> >>The reason is that the Global IME is
> >>optimized for download size and compatibility across versions of
Windows.
>
> That sounds like Microsoft-speak for "broken".
Yeah that's not an insult. So what would you do Dr. Breen, bundle all of
the keyboard drivers into the download? For NT and for Windows9x? Or just
the ones you are partial to? Force everybody to install a much bigger
package for a rarely used feature?
>
> >>Unfortunate limitation - yes it is. But the Global IME will never
satisfy a
> >>person that does most of her computing in Japanese (and was never
intended
> >>to do so) since only a few programs support it.
>
> True, and irrelevant. We are talking about someone in France, who wants to
> do just an occasional snippet of Japanese or Korean.
It's not irrelevant at all. The Global IME doesn't bundle and install the
the full suite of keyboard drivers because it's neither practical nor
necessary to do so.
>
> >>Most people with Japanese
> >>keyboards are likely running Japanese versions of Windows. Or
conversely,
> >>very few people with a Japanese keyboard will need the Global IMEs. And
> >>with Windows 2000 and Windows XP which support full East Asian input
across
> >>language versions of Windows, there's no reason to live with the Global
IME
> >>limitations.
>
> Microsoft-speak for "OK, we blew it, but throw more money at us and we
> have a product that will do what you want"
>
If you say so. I do agree it would've saved those of us who used mixed
environments a lot of pain if Microsoft had done this from the very
beginning but there are probably other features other folks are still
waiting for. Can't satify everyone at once. Nevertheless, I think the
globalization features in Windows 2000 are helpful.
> >>The problem is that not every keyboard layout has the core
> >>latin alphabet used by the input method for phonetic input.
>
> Wrong. They *do* have the "core latin alphabet", it's just not in the same
> place as on a US keyboard; a fact that obviously escaped the awareness
> of the developers of the Global (sic) IME.
>
So where is the "A" key on a cyrillic keyboard? How about an indic
keyboard? Or are you only talking about Western Euro languages?
> >>The IME would
> >>have to provide UI to enable people to replace those missing keys with
other
> >>keys.
>
> What missing keys? For a French peson, the `A' is exactly where it should
> be. It's only "missing" in a US-centric view of the world.
>
> >>If you're using a cyrillic keyboard layout for example, this makes
> >>little sense. Now for Western European keyboard layouts this could be
> >>accomplished pretty simply but very few people have asked for this
feature.
>
> Well they have, and all they have got is abuse from MS acolytes.
I suppose that's not an insult either. So far in the last 2 years the only
people I've seen complaining about the Global IMEs or asking for this
feature is you and Norman and no one, certainly not me, has abused you.
Pretty much everyone else seems happy with the free and easy-to-download /
install IMEs. It's not a panacea for Japanese computing of course but it's
useful.
>
> >>It's just not that hard to learn to use the
> >>default keyboard layout (which so happens is a US keyboard layout) and
if I
> >>want to type French characters it's easy enough to use a French keyboard
> >>layout.
>
> And people wonder why the French get uptight about American things.
>
Whatever that means. If you want to type in French, you should change the
input language to French. Same for German or any other language. Not only
will you find the keys in all the right places but some applications
actually key off of the input language to change the font or activate
proofing tools.
> >>Ya know Norman and Dr Breen, as a practical matter you might want to
ratchet
> >>down the insults a wee bit. It's just makes it hard to have a
conversation.
>
> Norman can speak for himself, but could you point out where I have been
> insulting? Sarcasm, of course, but it's hard to avoid that when in
> dialogue with someone defending one of MS's shoddier efforts.
>
I don't think a missing feature (especially a little-used one) makes a
product shoddy. If that's the definition then every piece of software ever
written is shoddy because there's always that next feature. For example I
find your online dictionary lacks a number of features. But that's OK
because it's still useful for a number of reasons.
Jim Breen
>>>
>>> Yep, and it doesn't use the French keyboard driver or the German keyboard
>>> driver. It should not be called Global.
>>It's Global because it works on all language versions of Windows and solves
>>a specific problem for a specific set of people. Perhaps "Basic IME" would
>>be a better name.
Yes, and a note on the download or installation that it only works
with "default" keyboards would help.
>>> >>The reason is that the Global IME is
>>> >>optimized for download size and compatibility across versions of
>>Windows.
>>>
>>> That sounds like Microsoft-speak for "broken".
>>Yeah that's not an insult.
Correct. It's sarcasm.
>>So what would you do Dr. Breen, bundle all of
>>the keyboard drivers into the download? For NT and for Windows9x? Or just
>>the ones you are partial to? Force everybody to install a much bigger
>>package for a rarely used feature?
All quite hypothetical, as I would not have developed the IME that way.
By making apps dependent on those drivers, MS has created a problem that
can only be resolved via a real OS approach. Fortunately the NT family
seems to have correct approach, unlike the Win9x kludges.
[I could tell the sad tale of the time I tried to install Office2000 on my
notebook. Right at the end the installation went and destroyed my
keyboard driver, then aborted. I had to completely reinstall Windows.
Another attempt to install Office2000 ended up the same way. I gave up.
The advice from MS was that my notebook had an OEM driver which was
"probably incompatible with Office 2000". No solution was suggested.]
>>> True, and irrelevant. We are talking about someone in France, who wants to
>>> do just an occasional snippet of Japanese or Korean.
>>It's not irrelevant at all. The Global IME doesn't bundle and install the
>>the full suite of keyboard drivers because it's neither practical nor
>>necessary to do so.
I could accept this technical excuse, provided MS made it clear rather
than leaving it to people to discover it themselves. But then admitting
to something less than omnipotence is not MS's forte.
>> I do agree it would've saved those of us who used mixed
>>environments a lot of pain if Microsoft had done this from the very
>>beginning
Kevin, Kevin. We agree!
>>but there are probably other features other folks are still
>>waiting for. Can't satify everyone at once. Nevertheless, I think the
>>globalization features in Windows 2000 are helpful.
IMNSHO MS has done the I18N aspects of Win2000 very well. It is streets
ahead of L**** and U*** in this respect. I also know that it took a lot of
money, and it took a lot of arguing in Redmond to convince Bill it
was worth it.
>>So where is the "A" key on a cyrillic keyboard? How about an indic
>>keyboard? Or are you only talking about Western Euro languages?
I was. Gomen nasai.
>>> Well they have, and all they have got is abuse from MS acolytes.
>>I suppose that's not an insult either.
Are you an MS acolyte? 8-)}
>>> >>It's just not that hard to learn to use the
>>> >>default keyboard layout (which so happens is a US keyboard layout) and
>>if I
>>> >>want to type French characters it's easy enough to use a French keyboard
>>> >>layout.
>>>
>>> And people wonder why the French get uptight about American things.
>>Whatever that means.
It means that some people are far from happy when they get delivered
software that assumes you use QWERTY keyboards, write dates M/D/Y, have
states with two-letter abbreviations, and postal codes with 5 numerics.
And when they point out it doesn't fit in, are told, "well, that's the
default".
>>I don't think a missing feature (especially a little-used one) makes a
>>product shoddy.
It's shoddy if it claims to be "global" and it isn't. If MS actually
sold the IME in that state, and did not state explicitly it was limited
to a US keyboard, it would probably have been breaking the law against
product misrepresentation in many countries.
>>If that's the definition then every piece of software ever
>>written is shoddy because there's always that next feature. For example I
>>find your online dictionary lacks a number of features. But that's OK
>>because it's still useful for a number of reasons.
Yes, and I don't pretend it is something which it is not.
Norman Diamond
[Several dozen lines which he ignored but quoted anyway, now snipped.]
> The Global IME doesn't work with Japanese keyboards because it doesn't use
> the Japanese keyboard driver.
And doesn't use the English and German and French keyboard drivers, etc.
Now, somehow English and German and French systems figure out how to use
English, German and French keyboards, even though those keyboards have
different layouts from the US keyboard. The Falsely-Asserted-Global IME is
still stupider.
> The reason is that the Global IME is
> optimized for download size and compatibility across versions of Windows.
Another lie. It is not optimized for download size and compatibility across
English (non-US), French, German, etc., versions of Windows. If it were
optimized for download size it would be 0 bytes long. If it were optimized
for compatibility then it would be a very few bytes longer than it actually
is.
> And with Windows 2000 and Windows XP which support full East Asian input
> across language versions of Windows,
Another lie. I put Japanese Windows 2000 on a machine that had an English
keyboard. When doing direct input, the OS understood the English layout.
When turning on the IME, suddenly it assumed a US layout. Japanese people
(except for Microsoft employees) know that Japanese character sets include
zenkaku ＠ and ” characters. People who have English keyboards (except for
Microsoft employees) know where the " and @ keys are on an English keyboard.
People who are inputting mostly Japanese, plus a few zenkaku punctuation
marks, on a computer made for England, would not find it confusing if the "
and @ keys worked consistently, except of course for Microsoft employees.
Oops, that should be, Microsoft employees and you.
> And if you wanted to you can swap in other keyboard layouts as I've
> pointed out in the past.
Yes, a few messages back, I mentioned that, for people who can remember
which registry entries to use regedit on, there's a workaround. By the way,
does the same workaround work in Windows 2000?
> The problem is that not every keyboard layout has the core
> latin alphabet used by the input method for phonetic input.
Ah, so THAT explains why Microsoft couldn't make a GUI work with an English
or French or German keyboard. Microsoft didn't know that those languages
often use the Latin alphabet! Hmm. Does Microsoft know that Italian uses
the Latin alphabet? Roman letters in Rome? Probably not, eh?
> It's just not that hard to learn to use the default keyboard layout (which
> so happens is a US keyboard layout)
It is hard for people who either: (a) have to look at the keys to see what
they want to type, which is going to differ from what Microsoft is going to
give them; or (b) don't have to look at the keys because they know how to
use their French keyboard.
> and if I want to type French characters it's easy enough to use a French
> keyboard layout.
Another lie. If you ever tried it, you'd see how your favorite IME screws
you.
> Ya know Norman and Dr Breen, as a practical matter you might want to
> ratchet down the insults a wee bit. It's just makes it hard to have a
> conversation.
Your lies don't make the coversation any easier. Your lies earn lies, but
I'm not a sufficiently skilled liar, so I have to answer your lies with
insults instead. Besides, I didn't see Breen-sensei insult you. I guess
you find that any true statement is an insult to you.
Fabian
>
> "Jim Breen" <j...@nexus.csse.monash.edu.au> wrote in message
> news:9b321t$6ou$1...@towncrier.cc.monash.edu.au...
> > Kevin_Je <kev...@seanet.com> dixit:
> >
> > >>The Global IME doesn't work with Japanese keyboards because it doesn't
> use
> > >>the Japanese keyboard driver.
> >
> > Yep, and it doesn't use the French keyboard driver or the German
keyboard
> > driver. It should not be called Global.
>
> It's Global because it works on all language versions of Windows and
solves
> a specific problem for a specific set of people. Perhaps "Basic IME"
would
> be a better name.
> >
> > >>The reason is that the Global IME is
> > >>optimized for download size and compatibility across versions of
> Windows.
> >
> > That sounds like Microsoft-speak for "broken".
>
> Yeah that's not an insult. So what would you do Dr. Breen, bundle all of
> the keyboard drivers into the download? For NT and for Windows9x? Or
just
> the ones you are partial to? Force everybody to install a much bigger
> package for a rarely used feature?
Kevin, you seem confused. The IME doesn't contain *any* keyboard drivers
except teh US one. OK so far. But you seem to think the solution is to
package all of them. It isn't. The solution is for the IME to query teh OS
to find out which keyboard driver is installed and running. I'd be very
surprised if any particular working installation did not already contain
such a functioning keyboard driver for teh keyboard being used. Hooking the
IME into that keyboard should have been an exercise for the gruntled MS
programmer. There is no sane reason to package *any* keyboard driver in teh
IME - not even the USA one.
> > >>Unfortunate limitation - yes it is. But the Global IME will never
> satisfy a
> > >>person that does most of her computing in Japanese (and was never
> intended
> > >>to do so) since only a few programs support it.
> >
> > True, and irrelevant. We are talking about someone in France, who wants
to
> > do just an occasional snippet of Japanese or Korean.
>
> It's not irrelevant at all. The Global IME doesn't bundle and install the
> the full suite of keyboard drivers because it's neither practical nor
> necessary to do so.
You're right - it is neither practical nor necessary to package every
keyboard driver. It isn't even practical or necessary to package the USA
keyboard driver, yet they did so. It obviously didn't occur to them that
anyone with a USA keyboard already has that driver, and anyone without
doesn't particularly care for it.
> > >>The problem is that not every keyboard layout has the core
> > >>latin alphabet used by the input method for phonetic input.
> >
> > Wrong. They *do* have the "core latin alphabet", it's just not in the
same
> > place as on a US keyboard; a fact that obviously escaped the awareness
> > of the developers of the Global (sic) IME.
>
> So where is the "A" key on a cyrillic keyboard? How about an indic
> keyboard? Or are you only talking about Western Euro languages?
I believe the keyboards in Russia have both Cyrillic and Latin characters
printed on them. Just like Japanese and Korean keyboards have both sets of
characters printed on them. Your objection is transparent nonsense.
> > >>It's just not that hard to learn to use the
> > >>default keyboard layout (which so happens is a US keyboard layout) and
> if I
> > >>want to type French characters it's easy enough to use a French
keyboard
> > >>layout.
> >
> > And people wonder why the French get uptight about American things.
> >
>
> Whatever that means. If you want to type in French, you should change the
> input language to French. Same for German or any other language. Not
only
> will you find the keys in all the right places but some applications
> actually key off of the input language to change the font or activate
> proofing tools.
The problem, is that if a French person wants to type in Japanese, he has to
relearn a keyboard layout, as his 'A' key would not be understood as an 'A'
in the IME. Every country except the USA has a similar problem. It isn't so
bad for British keyboards where alphanumeric keys are the same, but I still
need to guess for most punctuation.
> I don't think a missing feature (especially a little-used one) makes a
> product shoddy. If that's the definition then every piece of software
ever
> written is shoddy because there's always that next feature. For example I
> find your online dictionary lacks a number of features. But that's OK
> because it's still useful for a number of reasons.
I don't think it is shoddy. It is basic, and fulfils a need. Certainly, it
is better than the non-descript freeware nothings which predate it. But it
is a blatant lie to pretend it is a 'global' IME. I think people (in
England) are more offended by MS's advertising lies than by the limited
functionality. People who have a Latin keyboard that has a different
alphanumeric layout have all generally found it to be useless. For them, the
only practical solution is to purchase a USA keyboard, which are
surprisingly rare and expensive in those countries.
--
--
Fabian
Hush now, he has something special to say
Can you put your hands together this way?
Kevin_Je
"Fabian" <not...@orthere.not> wrote in message
news:tdbdagk...@corp.supernews.co.uk...
I don't think I'm confused Fabian. First, the Japanese keyboard driver
isn't available on non-East Asian versions of Windows 9x and NT4. Second,
the keyboard drivers for each OS are different. Third, there's no way to
invoke an install of the keyboard driver from the user's system and to
ensure that the person can get up and running with the IME straight away,
packaging the US keyboard driver was necessary. But you do have a point
here. If making the IME work with Western European keyboard layouts was a
design consideration (and I haven't been convinced in the past but I have to
admit the idea is growing on me), then it would be relatively simple for the
IME to simply use the existing keyboard.
>
> > > >>Unfortunate limitation - yes it is. But the Global IME will never
> > satisfy a
> > > >>person that does most of her computing in Japanese (and was never
> > intended
> > > >>to do so) since only a few programs support it.
> > >
> > > True, and irrelevant. We are talking about someone in France, who
wants
> to
> > > do just an occasional snippet of Japanese or Korean.
> >
> > It's not irrelevant at all. The Global IME doesn't bundle and install
the
> > the full suite of keyboard drivers because it's neither practical nor
> > necessary to do so.
>
> You're right - it is neither practical nor necessary to package every
> keyboard driver. It isn't even practical or necessary to package the USA
> keyboard driver, yet they did so. It obviously didn't occur to them that
> anyone with a USA keyboard already has that driver, and anyone without
> doesn't particularly care for it.
See above comment on why it was necessary to bundle the US keyboard.
>
> > > >>The problem is that not every keyboard layout has the core
> > > >>latin alphabet used by the input method for phonetic input.
> > >
> > > Wrong. They *do* have the "core latin alphabet", it's just not in the
> same
> > > place as on a US keyboard; a fact that obviously escaped the
awareness
> > > of the developers of the Global (sic) IME.
> >
> > So where is the "A" key on a cyrillic keyboard? How about an indic
> > keyboard? Or are you only talking about Western Euro languages?
>
> I believe the keyboards in Russia have both Cyrillic and Latin characters
> printed on them. Just like Japanese and Korean keyboards have both sets of
> characters printed on them. Your objection is transparent nonsense.
>
Fabian aren't you confusing keyboard layouts with physical keyboards. If
you use a Russian physical keyboard with Latin character labels on it so you
can effectively use a US keyboard layout, that's not using the Russian
keyboard layout. To really make this customizable (and I think that's what
we've been talking about) you'd need to allow the Russian keyboard layout
user to type in Japanese using Russian characters: ? (ya) might map to
? (ka) or something...
I agree. Should've been called "Microsoft Basic IME" or "Internet Explorer
IME" (since it initially only worked in IE.
Kevin_Je
Take it easy Norman. What is it about the internet / newsgroup medium that
makes people behave the way they do online? I'm guessing you are a
reasonable and intelligent person and that if you and I were face-to-face
you might hesitate before calling me a liar - especially over such a trivial
issue. What are we talking about here? just a simple difference in opinion
on a technical issue. Nothing more.
Fabian
"Kevin_Je" <kev...@seanet.com> wrote in message
> > Kevin, you seem confused. The IME doesn't contain *any* keyboard drivers
> > except teh US one. OK so far. But you seem to think the solution is to
> > package all of them. It isn't. The solution is for the IME to query teh
OS
> > to find out which keyboard driver is installed and running. I'd be very
> > surprised if any particular working installation did not already contain
> > such a functioning keyboard driver for teh keyboard being used. Hooking
> the
> > IME into that keyboard should have been an exercise for the gruntled MS
> > programmer. There is no sane reason to package *any* keyboard driver in
> teh
> > IME - not even the USA one.
>
> I don't think I'm confused Fabian. First, the Japanese keyboard driver
> isn't available on non-East Asian versions of Windows 9x and NT4.
It is neither available nor does it need to be teh way I proposed it.
Incidentally, I suggest you reconsider your words. The Japanese keyboard
drivers are not available on the default Win9x/kr installation.
> Second,
> the keyboard drivers for each OS are different.
This doesn't matter. If a guy from Tasmania can write a program which
seamlessly hooks into teh keyboard drivers for win95, NT, and 2K
(tavultesoft), I'm sure MS can do the same.
> Third, there's no way to
> invoke an install of the keyboard driver from the user's system and to
> ensure that the person can get up and running with the IME straight away,
This wouldn't be necessary. It stands to reason that the keyboard driver for
whatever keyboard teh guy is using is already installed.
> packaging the US keyboard driver was necessary.
Nonsense, my good man.
> But you do have a point
> here. If making the IME work with Western European keyboard layouts was a
> design consideration (and I haven't been convinced in the past but I have
to
> admit the idea is growing on me), then it would be relatively simple for
the
> IME to simply use the existing keyboard.
Yes, it is so simple to use the existing keyboard that I have no idea why MS
went and made it hard for everyone.
Incidentallty, not just western European keyboard layouts. But also Eastern
European keyboard layouts, South American keyboard layouts, Middle Eastern
keyboard layouts, Far Eastern keyboard layouts, etc etc
> See above comment on why it was necessary to bundle the US keyboard.
See above comment on why that opinion is, at best, a steaming pile of pig
bladders.
> > > So where is the "A" key on a cyrillic keyboard? How about an indic
> > > keyboard? Or are you only talking about Western Euro languages?
> >
> > I believe the keyboards in Russia have both Cyrillic and Latin
characters
> > printed on them. Just like Japanese and Korean keyboards have both sets
of
> > characters printed on them. Your objection is transparent nonsense.
>
> Fabian aren't you confusing keyboard layouts with physical keyboards.
You asked where a particular letter was on a particular keyboard. I told
you. At no point did I mention drivers in this comment, and at no point did
you ask about them in the remark I was commenting on.
I'm sorry, but if teh best you can do is smoke and mirrors to deflect a
valid criticism of your logic, then I suggest that you actually study what
you are talking about.
> If
> you use a Russian physical keyboard with Latin character labels on it so
you
> can effectively use a US keyboard layout, that's not using the Russian
> keyboard layout.
Trust me on this, just because the Russian keyboard has Latin charactes on
it, that doesn't mean the Latin characters are in the same positions that
tehy would be on a USA keyboard. I know they are different on Korean
keyboards as well.
> To really make this customizable (and I think that's what
> we've been talking about) you'd need to allow the Russian keyboard layout
> user to type in Japanese using Russian characters: ? (ya) might map to
> ? (ka) or something...
No one has suggested that. You are being deliberately ridiculous.
Kevin, I had been following the thread quietly, but you have made it clear
that you don't really know what you are talking about. This isn't an insult,
a flame, slander, or even libel. It simply falls into the realm of 'fair
comment'.
Kevin_Je
"Fabian" <not...@orthere.not> wrote in message
news:tdc1ooj...@corp.supernews.co.uk...
There are 3 separate things involved here Fabian: physical keyboards,
keyboard drivers, and keyboard layouts. One of Norman's complaints was that
the Japanese Global IME doesn't work with a Japanese physical keyboard. So
the 106 keyboard's functionality (conversion key, etc.) is not usable with a
the Global IME. It's a fair complaint and I'm trying to explain why.
First, non-Japanese versions of Win9x won't recognize the Japanese keyboard
driver. Second, in order to provide that driver to users (because remember
prior to Windows 2000 the Japanese keyboard driver is only available with
Japanese versions of Windows ) the Global IME would have to install them.
Following me so far?
Third, since the drivers differ between NT4 and Win9x, the Global IME would
have to package both of them to provide them further increasing the download
size (which is an important consideration for a component that’s only
installable via the web especially since 99.9% of the people would never
have need of them). Fourth, the Japanese Global IME install is disabled on
Japanese versions of Windows because:
a. Installing the Global IME on a same language Windows would cause
conflicts
b. It's completely unnecessary since obviously Japanese versions of Windows
ship with the full Japanese IME.
So to wrap up this point, the Japanese IME doesn't work with the Japanese
physical keyboard and that is an unfortunate limitation. But in my
estimation that's not a terribly big deal since 99.9% of the folks with a
Japanese keyboard probably bought their PC in Japan and are running Japanese
versions of Windows. The Global IME’s only purpose was to provide limited
Japanese input to other (non Japanese) versions of Windows.
> > Second,
> > the keyboard drivers for each OS are different.
>
> This doesn't matter. If a guy from Tasmania can write a program which
> seamlessly hooks into teh keyboard drivers for win95, NT, and 2K
> (tavultesoft), I'm sure MS can do the same.
>
It does matter if they were to bundle keyboard drivers (like the Japanese
keyboard driver) with the Global IME package.
> > Third, there's no way to
> > invoke an install of the keyboard driver from the user's system and to
> > ensure that the person can get up and running with the IME straight
away,
>
> This wouldn't be necessary. It stands to reason that the keyboard driver
for
> whatever keyboard teh guy is using is already installed.
>
> > packaging the US keyboard driver was necessary.
>
> Nonsense, my good man.
Think about it Fabian. You install the Global IME on a Greek version of
Windows and you have a Greek keyboard layout installed. Tell me please how
you'd enter Latin characters with a Greek keyboard layout? Remember, this
is a layout not a physical keyboard. Of course the user can add a keyboard
layout with latin characters but then most people don't have a clue how to
do that and the goal here is to provide functionality to regular people not
techno-heads. And since it's difficult and cumbersome to do this via the
Global IME package, it makes sense to provide a default keyboard layout with
the Global IME install. Making sense yet?
>
> > But you do have a point
> > here. If making the IME work with Western European keyboard layouts was
a
> > design consideration (and I haven't been convinced in the past but I
have
> to
> > admit the idea is growing on me), then it would be relatively simple for
> the
> > IME to simply use the existing keyboard.
>
> Yes, it is so simple to use the existing keyboard that I have no idea why
MS
> went and made it hard for everyone.
>
I don't think MS made it hard at all. The one thing they didn't do was to
allow people to use other Western European layouts with the Global IME.
That's fixable we can see because you can edit the registry to swap in your
favorite layout. I could write a little program with friendly UI to do
this - it's pretty trivial. Maybe I'll do that to put this issue to rest.
> Incidentallty, not just western European keyboard layouts. But also
Eastern
> European keyboard layouts, South American keyboard layouts, Middle Eastern
> keyboard layouts, Far Eastern keyboard layouts, etc etc
>
> > See above comment on why it was necessary to bundle the US keyboard.
>
> See above comment on why that opinion is, at best, a steaming pile of pig
> bladders.
>
uh, yeah...
Let me try again. If you're using a Russian *physical* keyboard and you
want to type Latin characters, you need to add a Latin keyboard layout. If
you have an English *physical* keyboard and you want to type Russian, you
need to add the Russian keyboard layout. Do you disagree with that
statement? Don't trust me btw, try it yourself.
Now the other complaint has been that the Global IME forces people to use
the US keyboard layout rather than their preferred keyboard layout. For
Western European languages / layouts that has some merit and it would be
possible for the Global IME to add UI to let people customize that. I have
not been convinced that's a really big deal or worth it but according to
this group of people it is. Anyway, the point I was making with the Russian
keyboard layout (note I said layout not physical keyboard) is that this
wouldn't work in that case or other non-Western European cases. Don't
believe me? Try swapping in the Russian keyboard layout in the registry.
Tell me what you get. Tell me also what you expect to happen.
>
> Kevin, I had been following the thread quietly, but you have made it clear
> that you don't really know what you are talking about. This isn't an
insult,
> a flame, slander, or even libel. It simply falls into the realm of 'fair
> comment'.
>
Ouch that hurts. Fabian I've been doing work in this area for a long and I
know the Windows multilingual API inside and out, have written IMEs (using
the IME DDK), applications that use IMEs (using IMM and AIMM APIs), etc so I
know a quite a bit about this. Additionally, I can get through a technical
conversation without telling people they are liars, stupid, rediculous or
their ideas are piles of crap. I wouldn’t keep my job long if I could not.
I’m sticking it out in this newsgroup (against my better judgment) because I
see smart people with honest questions and simple misunderstandings. Surely
there’s room here for a reasonable discussion of these issues.
Norman Diamond
> If making the IME work with Western European keyboard layouts was a
> design consideration (and I haven't been convinced in the past but I have to
> admit the idea is growing on me), then it would be relatively simple for the
> IME to simply use the existing keyboard.
Very odd wording there. Not only is the idea finally growing on you, which
is an idea that was understood by everyone except you and Microsoft, but the
growth of this idea makes you understand how simple it would be for the IME
to simply use the existing keyboard. And the reason why it matters that the
idea is growing on you, and the reason why such a simple thing finally
begins to be understood by you... you ARE working for Microsoft, aren't
you? The inability (until now) to understand the idea of doing a simple
thing simply, that is your doing, isn't it?
> Fabian aren't you confusing keyboard layouts with physical keyboards. If
> you use a Russian physical keyboard with Latin character labels on it so you
> can effectively use a US keyboard layout, that's not using the Russian
> keyboard layout.
No Je, you're still the one who's confused. I haven't seen a Russian
keyboard but let me explain Japanese and Chinese keyboards to you. Japanese
keyboards have two character labels on each key, Latin+Punctuation labels
for the JIS-Roman layout, and Kana+Punctuation labels for the JIS-Kana
layout. Hardly anyone ever uses the JIS-Kana layout -- in fact, when
someone found someone who used it, the event was newsworthy. Nearly
everyone uses the JIS-Roman layout, and guess what, the punctuation marks
are in the JP106 layout not the US101 layout. Chinese keyboards also have
two character labels on each key.
> To really make this customizable (and I think that's what
> we've been talking about) you'd need to allow the Russian keyboard layout
> user to type in Japanese using Russian characters:
That might be an interesting exercise for you, but meanwhile, tons of people
including Japanese people just want you to get the Latin+Punctuation right.
You see, Japanese Romaji is usually used in inputting Japanese, one step
ahead of the henkan step. Japanese Kiriruji isn't usually used in inputting
Japanese. In fact I've never heard of Japanese Kiriruji until your posting
here. I've seen Japanese Romaji on signs in train stations, I haven't seen
Japanese Kiriruji on signs in train stations. (I've seen Russian and some
other European languages printed in Kiriruji themselves, but I haven't seen
Japanese printed in them.)
Norman Diamond
> One of Norman's complaints was that
> the Japanese Global IME doesn't work with a Japanese physical keyboard. So
> the 106 keyboard's functionality (conversion key, etc.) is not usable with a
> the Global IME.
Except, an older version of the "Global" (even though "Global" meant US in
those days too) DID recognize the conversion keys, while still stupidly
presuming that the romaji and punctuation must be in the US layout. And,
except, I wasn't complaining about newer versions not recognizing the
conversion keys (the degradation being odd or maybe not so odd being that
it's Microsoft, but anyway not really a problem), I was merely correcting
someone else who said that they do. My complaint is about the stupidity of
ignoring the layout that has been set, that works when the IME isn't in use.
> First, non-Japanese versions of Win9x won't recognize the Japanese keyboard
> driver. Second, in order to provide that driver to users (because remember
> prior to Windows 2000 the Japanese keyboard driver is only available with
> Japanese versions of Windows ) the Global IME would have to install them.
No, you're just being an idiot again. For non-Japanese versions of Lose9x
and LoseNT4, users had to copy LAYOUT files from Japanese versions, and we
had to copy a few registry entries (or manually add them to the registry).
No change to the drivers.
If an IME didn't add any drivers at all, if an IME simply accepted the
driver and layout that were already set for the machine, then guess what,
the IME would start working.
Lose2K did compound the stupidity, without even needing to lie about the
meaning of the word "Global". In order to avoid losing face with regard to
the former non-Global IME, Microsoft now had to add separate drivers for
certain keyboard layouts. Now if a machine has a non-US layout then the US
driver plus designated non-US layout will work for some layouts but not for
others, outside of the IME. For example US driver plus French layout works
with a French keyboard until the IME is started, but US driver plus Japanese
layout doesn't work with a Japanese keyboard because it assumes US layout
regardless of whether the IME is started. But Japanese driver plus Japanese
layout works. Then because Microsoft accidentally does a little bit of
testing, they discovered that the US driver plus Japanese layout didn't
work, so they put some unknown kluge in it. When Japanese Lose2K is first
installed, the keyboard starts out with the US driver and Japanese layout
and it works. But if you change the keyboard to (for example) US and then
change it back to Japanese, then it stops working. Then you have to go back
and change the driver as well, to the Japanese driver, and then it returns
to the usual case. Incredible, isn't it? They'll do anything to avoid
simplicity.
Anyway, the IME never has to install a driver. In order to make an IME work
correctly, it should just cooperate with the driver and layout that are
already installed.
> Third, since the drivers differ between NT4 and Win9x, the Global IME would
> have to package both of them
To make an IME work correctly, it would have package neither of them.
I'm tired of repeating myself.
Look Je, no one except you is ever going to believe you.
Kevin_Je
And you're just being a petulant jerk again. Back to the issue - I'm an
idiot for confusing drivers and layouts but except for the Normans and
Fabians of the world, no one is going to hand copy the layout files. If
your complaint was that the Global IME didn't work with the Japanese
keyboard out of the box then the layout files would have to come from
somewhere. Right? Now what did you have to do to get the layout to work?
And what version of the Global IME did this work with?
Kevin_Je
You're still dodging the question Norman. Please just answer this one
question Norman:
Given a user's system where only the Greek or Russian layout was installed,
what should the Global IME do on install?
a. Do nothing. Just let the user try and input with a Greek layout.
b. Install another western euro layout.
c. Other
Rolf Leggewie
>>>> The reason is that the Global IME is
>>>> optimized for download size and compatibility across versions of Windows.
>>
>> That sounds like Microsoft-speak for "broken".
>
> Yeah that's not an insult. So what would you do Dr. Breen, bundle
> all of the keyboard drivers into the download? For NT and for
> Windows9x? Or just the ones you are partial to? Force everybody to
> install a much bigger package for a rarely used feature?
???
A whole lot of keyboard drivers (for example the German keyboard layout
which I need) came already bundled with my installation disks even for
the US (!) Windows 95. There is absolutely no need to include these
with the download for IME. Not that I would think they (less than 1K
per piece uncompressed) would really make that much of a difference for
a 5MB+ Download for the IME if they had to be included or downloaded
separately. So what is your point here ?
>>>> Unfortunate limitation - yes it is.
*Very* unfortunate, yes indeed. As a German user I cannot tell you how
much you underestimate the annoyance of hitting the Y-key only to get a
Z[1] and thus mix up the whole input to start anew.
Most of what I write is in German or English with the German keyboard
layout. I don't think most people that type blindly as I do will be
able to switch the keyboard layout in their mind instantly *every
single time* they go from western languages to IME even though I know
the US layout rather well (my laptop which I bought over there has a US
keyboard).
>>>> But the Global IME will
>>>> never satisfy a person that does most of her computing in
>>>> Japanese (and was never intended to do so) since only a few
>>>> programs support it.
>>
>> True, and irrelevant. We are talking about someone in France, who
>> wants to do just an occasional snippet of Japanese or Korean.
>
> It's not irrelevant at all. The Global IME doesn't bundle and
> install the the full suite of keyboard drivers because it's neither
> practical nor necessary to do so.
So why is that argument then not irrelevant from my point of view as a
German user ? Most of my computing is not Japanese and precisely
because of that in the more or less rare circumstances I do type some
Japanese I do not want to bothered with remembering to switch the Y and
the Z in my head all the time.
Again, as I said, a lot of the keyboard drivers are already installed
by Windows itself in any case. They will always include the correct
version for the major and even the not so major languages plus the
"base" language of the Windows system itself (Portuguese layout
installed with Portuguese Windows). So I guess it would be safe to
assume that most people will already have a driver with the correct
layout for the keyboard that sits in front of them ;-)
>>>> Ya know Norman and Dr Breen, as a practical matter you might
>>>> want to ratchet down the insults a wee bit. It's just makes it
>>>> hard to have a conversation.
Nack, I don't see that in their posts. It is *YOUR* comments here as
to how everybody should adapt to the US way that I perceive as arrogant
and quite frankly showing a limited horizon on your part.
> I don't think a missing feature (especially a little-used one) makes
> a product shoddy.
OK, so you don't use it, fair enough. A lot of other people go through
a lot of trouble for it. I searched for a way to change the default
layout to a German keyboard for several years now until I found the
registry hack in <kq9gbt487dbq2vho0...@4ax.com> in this
NG just a few days ago. With a little adjustment it also works here in
Win95 :-).
If developers don't think about a program enough to anticipate these
troubles beforehand or don't consider it relevant, their product is
*shoddy*. BTW, Global IME is also shoddy in that when turning the IME
on, it defaults to alpabetic and not hiragana input (the root of this
thread). How dumb is that ? Unfortunately, nobody suggested a way
around yet :-(
Mit freundlichem Gruß
Rolf Leggewie
Footnotes:
==========
[1] German keyboard is qwertz not qwerty.
Fabian
"Kevin_Je" <kev...@seanet.com> wrote in message
> You're still dodging the question Norman. Please just answer this one
> question Norman:
>
> Given a user's system where only the Greek or Russian layout was
installed,
> what should the Global IME do on install?
> a. Do nothing. Just let the user try and input with a Greek layout.
> b. Install another western euro layout.
> c. Other
imnsho, the IME should work with the layout of the punctuation on the
keyboard, and work with the layout of the Latin characters on the keyboard.
In my travels, I have seen many keyboards with non-Latin scripts, and every
one of them also bore the Latin alphabet in full somewhere. There is no
reason why an IME should not be able to interpret these correctly, given
that the relevant language OS will have appropriate keyboard drivers.
Rolf Leggewie
> Given a user's system where only the Greek or Russian layout was
> installed, what should the Global IME do on install?
> a. Do nothing. Just let the user try and input with a Greek layout.
> b. Install another western euro layout.
> c. Other
c. other: Check the default keyboard layout used by Windows and use
that. The default was working and keeps on to do so when the IME
is not active. Where's the problem ?
Rolf Leggewie
> Think about it Fabian. You install the Global IME on a Greek
> version of Windows and you have a Greek keyboard layout installed.
> Tell me please how you'd enter Latin characters with a Greek
> keyboard layout? Remember, this is a layout not a physical
> keyboard. Of course the user can add a keyboard layout with latin
> characters but then most people don't have a clue how to do that and
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> the goal here is to provide functionality to regular people not
> techno-heads. And since it's difficult and cumbersome to do this via
> the Global IME package, it makes sense to provide a default keyboard
> layout with the Global IME install. Making sense yet?
[...]
> I don't think MS made it hard at all. The one thing they didn't do
> was to allow people to use other Western European layouts with the
> Global IME. That's fixable we can see because you can edit the
> registry to swap in your favorite layout.
So you trust "regular people" that are not "techno heads" to hack their
registry but not install a new keyboard layout (which in 99,999% of the
cases they would not need any way as it is already installed). Now, I
really need to question your judgment.
Regards
Rolf
Norman Diamond
> "Norman Diamond" <ndia...@nospam.wta.att.ne.jp> wrote in message
> news:9b6t2g$lkr$5...@newsflood.osaka.att.ne.jp...
> > Lose9x and LoseNT4, users had to copy LAYOUT files from Japanese
> > versions, and we had to copy a few registry entries (or manually add
> > them to the registry). No change to the drivers.
>
> And you're just being a petulant jerk again.
Every truth-teller is a petulant jerk. Too bad, it goes with the territory.
We know why you're unfamiliar with that territory.
> Back to the issue - I'm an idiot for confusing drivers and layouts
Yes you are. Not only for that, but yes including that.
> but except for the Normans and
> Fabians of the world, no one is going to hand copy the layout files.
No, you're being an idiot and a liar again. Some people do it by opening up
Windows Explorer, clicking a the layout file in one directory and pressing
Control-C (or clicking on Edit - Copy), and then opening up their
Windows\System directory and pressing Control-V (or clicking on Edit -
Paste). Now we know why you don't do this, it's too hard for you, so you
need a falsely-asserted-global IME installer to install a duplicate of the
keyboard driver that you use instead of letting it work the way the rest of
the world's programs cooperate with the already-installed keyboard drivers.
By the way, to get entries added to the registry would require
double-clicking a file after copying it. And indeed the file had to be
created by hand by someone, unless exported from the registry of a Japanese
system.
> If
> your complaint was that the Global IME didn't work with the Japanese
> keyboard out of the box then the layout files would have to come from
> somewhere. Right? Now what did you have to do to get the layout to work?
Well, I know you need everything repeated over and over and over, so here,
I'll use my mouse to copy and paste... Some people do it by opening up
Windows Explorer, clicking a the layout file in one directory and pressing
Control-C (or clicking on Edit - Copy), and then opening up their
Windows\System directory and pressing Control-V (or clicking on Edit -
Paste). Now we know why you don't do this, it's too hard for you, so you
need a falsely-asserted-global IME installer to install a duplicate of the
keyboard driver that you use instead of letting it work the way the rest of
the world's programs cooperate with the already-installed keyboard drivers.
Now, as as been already been repeated for you many times, that procedure
works when the falsely-asserted-global IME isn't in use. It stops working
when the falsely-asserted-global IME is turned on. This is where our
complaints sprang from.
> And what version of the Global IME did this work with?
IT FUCKING DOESN'T. IT WORKS WITH EVERYTHING EXCEPT THE
FALSELY-ASSERTED-GLOBAL IME, BECAUSE YOU SCREWED UP THE IME
BY PUTTING STUFF INTO IT THAT NEVER BELONGED THERE.
But I understand that one more repetition still won't make it any easier for
you to understand. So I give up.