beki negative form?

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Charles Eicher

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Dec 5, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/5/00
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I was pondering the form "suru beku/subeki" and it occurred to me, is there a
negative form of this structure? Sure, there are lots of ways to say "you can't
do X" but off the top of my head, I can't think of a direct way to say something
like "you shouldn't do X." Yeah, there are vague ways of saying something
related, like "if you don't do X, that would be good" but that's not quite what
I am looking for.


muchan

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Dec 5, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/5/00
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"Bek.ar.a.zu" was the negative form of "beshi"/"beki", in bungo. It's still used,
but in Modern Japanese "shouldn't do" is "suru-beki-de-wa nai" or "shi.nai-hou-ga ii".

muchan

Charles Eicher

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Dec 5, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/5/00
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In article <3A2CBD11...@promikra.si>, muchan says...


thanks muchan, I had that bekarazu form floating around in my head, but couldn't
recall it. It seems to be more directly "you shouldn't X" than the other forms.
But I could be wrong. As I parse them:

suru beki de wa nai - not something you should do
shinai hou ga ii - if you don't do it, that is good

Ah, those wonderfully indirect ways of saying things..


Sean Holland

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Dec 5, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/5/00
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in article 90ijj...@edrn.newsguy.com, Charles Eicher at cei...@inav.net
wrote on 12/5/00 3:30 AM:


>
> thanks muchan, I had that bekarazu form floating around in my head, but
> couldn't
> recall it. It seems to be more directly "you shouldn't X" than the other
> forms.
> But I could be wrong. As I parse them:
>
> suru beki de wa nai - not something you should do
> shinai hou ga ii - if you don't do it, that is good
>
> Ah, those wonderfully indirect ways of saying things..
>

Shitchau dame.


Jed Rothwell

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Dec 5, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/5/00
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Charles Eicher writes:

> I was pondering the form "suru beku/subeki" and it occurred to me, is
there a
> negative form of this structure?

-- bekarazu, -bekarazaru OR --beki zya nai.

I have never heard "bekarazaru" but Martin cites it on p. 943. -beki zya nai
sounds vaguely ungrammatical to me, but people say it and Martin lists is on
p. 943.

This is related to the informal -bei, which people say all the time, at
least in Hiroshima, where it also substitutes for - darou, as in "Ame ga
huru bee." It is origin of "non'bei" (drunkard) from "nomu-bei!"

- Jed


Anthony J. Bryant

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Dec 5, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/5/00
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

>
> This is related to the informal -bei, which people say all the time, at
> least in Hiroshima, where it also substitutes for - darou, as in "Ame ga
> huru bee." It is origin of "non'bei" (drunkard) from "nomu-bei!"
>

Are you sure? I thought the nonbei name was a pun based on the old --bei given
name pattern; Ichibei, Matahei, Gorobei, Jirobei, etc. I think you might be
misinterpreting that...

Tony

Jed Rothwell

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Dec 6, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/6/00
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Anthony J. Bryant writes:

Gee, you could be right. The Koujien has the personal name kanji. It could
be both, I suppose. I assumed it was a pun on the personal name + the verb
form, because I am used to hearing people from Hiroshima say "iku-bee"
"nomu-bee" and so on.

We'll have to ask native speakers, or look it up in some obscure dictionary
of jargon.

- Jed

Jed Rothwell

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Dec 6, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/6/00
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Hirofumi Nagamura writes:

> "Nonbee" isn't a word local to Hiroshima . . .

Sure. It's the old form still used in many places, but I think people use it
often down there. Martin says it occurs in "various dialects" and he cites
an example of a male speaker from Fukushima, with the short form 'be': "Atti
wa tokku ni yuki hutte samui -be na." Another colorful example: "Hiki-sio de
oki ni motte 'kareta no mo zuibun atta -be naa" trans: "Musta been a lot
carried out to sea by the ebb tide, too." Good translation!

- Jed


Gerald B Mathias

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Dec 6, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/6/00
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Sean Holland <seho...@islandnet.com> wrote:
: in article 90ijj...@edrn.newsguy.com, Charles Eicher at cei...@inav.net

: Shitchau dame.

u dame too. "Better not knowu"?

Bart
--
"?!" -- Buck R. Yarrow
Some people just type faster than they think, Buck. You should know
that--you're one of them.

Sean Holland

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Dec 6, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/6/00
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in article 90lrd7$o2a$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net, Jed Rothwell at
jedro...@mindspring.com wrote on 12/6/00 9:02 AM:

I lived in Fukushima in the 80s and everyone (almost) said -be. Sometimes
they were just joking around (Ora Tookyoo sa iku be), but I'd hear "Soo da
be" on a daily basis.
Nombe for a drunkard was one of the first words I learned upon landing in
Tookyoo in 1983. (Now why would I have learned that word so quickly?
Mysterious...)


Sean Holland

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Dec 6, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/6/00
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in article 90m30a$75h$3...@news.hawaii.edu, Gerald B Mathias at
mat...@uhunix3.its.hawaii.edu wrote on 12/6/00 11:11 AM:

> Sean Holland <seho...@islandnet.com> wrote:
> : in article 90ijj...@edrn.newsguy.com, Charles Eicher at cei...@inav.net
> : wrote on 12/5/00 3:30 AM:
>
>
> :>
> :> thanks muchan, I had that bekarazu form floating around in my head, but
> :> couldn't
> :> recall it. It seems to be more directly "you shouldn't X" than the other
> :> forms.
> :> But I could be wrong. As I parse them:
> :>
> :> suru beki de wa nai - not something you should do
> :> shinai hou ga ii - if you don't do it, that is good
> :>
> :> Ah, those wonderfully indirect ways of saying things..
> :>
>
> : Shitchau dame.
>
> u dame too. "Better not knowu"?
>

Wakaran.


Hirofumi Nagamura

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Dec 6, 2000, 10:32:43 AM12/6/00
to

"Nonbee" isn't a word local to Hiroshima, so I find the "nomubee"
theory rather dubious (although that's not to rule out the possibility
that it originated there). BTW, notice that in Koojien's definition
there's a synonym, "nomisuke", which again seems like a pun on male
names.

Cheers,
--
Hirofumi Nagamura
naga...@kh.rim.or.jp

Sho

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Dec 7, 2000, 2:16:50 AM12/7/00
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Sean Holland <seho...@islandnet.com> wrote in message
news:B6542C9D.C334%seho...@islandnet.com...

[...]

(Now why would I have learned that word so quickly? Mysterious...)

Mysterious indeed. I bet you don't understand why you kept being called
"sukebe(e)" either. (I couldn't possibly resist this one.)

Sho


Jeff

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Dec 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/7/00
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"Sean Holland" <seho...@islandnet.com> wrote in message
news:B655080F.C366%seho...@islandnet.com...
> in article 3A2FB434...@promikra.si, muchan at muc...@promikra.si
wrote
> on 12/7/00 8:00 AM:

>
> >
> > Sean Holland wrote:
> >>>
> >>> : Shitchau dame.
> >>>
> >>> u dame too. "Better not knowu"?
> >>>
> >> Wakaran.
> >
> > "Shichaa dame".
> >
> > muchan
>
> This is an example of the arrested development of the school teacher. I
> *hear* what *seems* to me to be "shitchau dame" when my wife is yelling at
> my kids. Since I don't teach this form at the high school level, I haven't
> analysed it. (I am very happy if by the end of my program kids can say
> "shite wa ikemasen" without stumbling too much.) I will give it some
thought

Wouldn't this be しちゃだめ? Why does muchan have two As?

Gerald B Mathias

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Dec 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/7/00
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Jeff <je...@tohellwithspammers.schrepfer.com> wrote:
:> in article 3A2FB434...@promikra.si, muchan at muc...@promikra.si
: wrote
:> >
:> > "Shichaa dame".

: Wouldn't this be しちゃだめ? Why does muchan have two As?

Because Japanese is length sensitive, it took time to get the two moras of
"-te-wa" compressed from "-chaa" to "-cha," and the earlier form still
survives as an option. muchan may have taken Sean's "chau" to have
intended that.

Bart

Gerald B Mathias

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Dec 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/7/00
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Jed Rothwell <jedro...@mindspring.com> wrote:
: Hirofumi Nagamura writes:

:> "Nonbee" isn't a word local to Hiroshima . . .

: Sure. It's the old form still used in many places, but I think people use it
: often down there. Martin says it occurs in "various dialects" and he cites
: an example of a male speaker from Fukushima, with the short form 'be': "Atti
: wa tokku ni yuki hutte samui -be na." Another colorful example: "Hiki-sio de
: oki ni motte 'kareta no mo zuibun atta -be naa" trans: "Musta been a lot
: carried out to sea by the ebb tide, too." Good translation!

I'm a little surprised to read they use it in Hiroshima. It is usually
described as a strictly eastern locution. Can anyone else confirm the
western usage?

Jeff

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Dec 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/7/00
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"Gerald B Mathias" <mat...@uhunix3.its.hawaii.edu> wrote in message
news:90oolk$3jd$3...@news.hawaii.edu...

I understand that Japanese is length sensitive but did this used to be two
mora? How would it be written then しちゃーだめ or しちゃあだめ? Neither
makes sense to me and I think I've only heard it with a shortened しちゃだめ
.

In fact, is there really a は in there at all? I thought this was simply a
contraction of shite shimatte dame not shite shimatte ha dame. I just always
thought the -u form of shimau becomes chau while the -te form of shimau
becomes chatte and that cha was a further contraction of this (the
imperative is chae.) I wasn't under the impression that the cha implies an
abbreviated は at all. Therefore shite shimatte dame da yo becomes shichatte
dame da yo which is further contracted to shicha dame da yo. Is this wrong?

Jeff

muchan

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Dec 7, 2000, 11:02:43 AM12/7/00
to

"Anthony J. Bryant" wrote:

>
> Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
> >
> > This is related to the informal -bei, which people say all the time, at
> > least in Hiroshima, where it also substitutes for - darou, as in "Ame ga
> > huru bee." It is origin of "non'bei" (drunkard) from "nomu-bei!"
> >
>
> Are you sure? I thought the nonbei name was a pun based on the old --bei given
> name pattern; Ichibei, Matahei, Gorobei, Jirobei, etc. I think you might be
> misinterpreting that...
>
> Tony

About "nombei", I think Tony is right.

About "beshi" changed to "-bee" in speech in some dialect, yes.

muchan

muchan

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Dec 7, 2000, 11:00:52 AM12/7/00
to

Sean Holland wrote:
>
> > :>
> > :> thanks muchan, I had that bekarazu form floating around in my head, but
> > :> couldn't
> > :> recall it. It seems to be more directly "you shouldn't X" than the other
> > :> forms.
> > :> But I could be wrong. As I parse them:
> > :>
> > :> suru beki de wa nai - not something you should do
> > :> shinai hou ga ii - if you don't do it, that is good
> > :>
> > :> Ah, those wonderfully indirect ways of saying things..
> > :>
> >

Sean Holland

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Dec 7, 2000, 12:25:35 PM12/7/00
to
in article 3A2FB434...@promikra.si, muchan at muc...@promikra.si wrote
on 12/7/00 8:00 AM:

>
> Sean Holland wrote:
>>>
>>> : Shitchau dame.
>>>
>>> u dame too. "Better not knowu"?
>>>
>> Wakaran.
>
> "Shichaa dame".
>
> muchan

This is an example of the arrested development of the school teacher. I


*hear* what *seems* to me to be "shitchau dame" when my wife is yelling at
my kids. Since I don't teach this form at the high school level, I haven't
analysed it. (I am very happy if by the end of my program kids can say
"shite wa ikemasen" without stumbling too much.) I will give it some thought

now.

Sho

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Dec 7, 2000, 4:12:50 PM12/7/00
to

Sean Holland <seho...@islandnet.com> wrote in message
news:B655080F.C366%seho...@islandnet.com...

Was "Shitchau dame" supposed to be an alternative way of saying, "...
su(ru)bekide (ha) nai"? When it was first posted, with a "t" before "chau,"
I thought you were commenting on Charles's conclusive statement that went,
"Ah, those wonderfully indirect ways of saying things.." I think Bart took
it the same way as I did, because in his comment he had "know" in it. The
meaning was ambiguous, though. To me it sounded like, "You're not supposed
to know it," which could be a warning or a disparagement: by the latter I
mean something like, "Hey, it's much too early for you to become aware of
all that."

The lengthening of the final vowel, which Jeff wonders about, is a further
adjustment made for the conditional form of the verb to fit into the very
colloquial structure marked by "dame". When the preceding verb is short,
especially single-moraed, as in the above, we sometimes feel an urge to
lengthen it for an emphatic effect, though the shorter version is equally
good, when said with more emotional control on the part of the speaker. I
suppose Sean meant the suru to be a catchall expression for any verb, so I
would take it that it should be expanded to the uses like
"micha(a)/kicha(a)/itcha(a)/nicha(a) dame". Hmmm. The urge is particularly
stronger with "shichaa". Probably has to do with the fact that "suru" is the
formal version of "yaru," which seems like a better choice for this
colloquialism. We probably need to corrupt "suru" to push it in.

Sho

Hirofumi Nagamura

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Dec 7, 2000, 6:26:08 PM12/7/00
to
Jeff wrote:
>
> "Gerald B Mathias" <mat...@uhunix3.its.hawaii.edu> wrote in message
> news:90oolk$3jd$3...@news.hawaii.edu...
> > Jeff <je...@tohellwithspammers.schrepfer.com> wrote:
> > :> in article 3A2FB434...@promikra.si, muchan at muc...@promikra.si
> > : wrote

> > :> >
> > :> > "Shichaa dame".
> >
> > : Wouldn't this be しちゃだめ? Why does muchan have two As?
> >
> > Because Japanese is length sensitive, it took time to get the two moras of
> > "-te-wa" compressed from "-chaa" to "-cha," and the earlier form still
> > survives as an option. muchan may have taken Sean's "chau" to have
> > intended that.
>
> I understand that Japanese is length sensitive but did this used to be two
> mora? How would it be written then しちゃーだめ or しちゃあだめ? Neither
> makes sense to me and I think I've only heard it with a shortened しちゃだめ
> .

Ever heard Tora-san say "それを言っちゃあおしめえよ"?

> In fact, is there really a は in there at all? I thought this was simply a
> contraction of shite shimatte dame not shite shimatte ha dame. I just always
> thought the -u form of shimau becomes chau while the -te form of shimau
> becomes chatte and that cha was a further contraction of this (the
> imperative is chae.) I wasn't under the impression that the cha implies an
> abbreviated は at all. Therefore shite shimatte dame da yo becomes shichatte
> dame da yo which is further contracted to shicha dame da yo. Is this wrong?

Yes. (And the "shimatte" is yobun, too.)

muchan

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Dec 8, 2000, 7:41:31 AM12/8/00
to

Jeff wrote:
>
> "Gerald B Mathias" <mat...@uhunix3.its.hawaii.edu> wrote in message
> news:90oolk$3jd$3...@news.hawaii.edu...
> > Jeff <je...@tohellwithspammers.schrepfer.com> wrote:

> > :> in article 3A2FB434...@promikra.si, muchan at muc...@promikra.si
> > : wrote


> > :> >
> > :> > "Shichaa dame".
> >
> > : Wouldn't this be しちゃだめ? Why does muchan have two As?
> >
> > Because Japanese is length sensitive, it took time to get the two moras of
> > "-te-wa" compressed from "-chaa" to "-cha," and the earlier form still
> > survives as an option. muchan may have taken Sean's "chau" to have
> > intended that.
>
> I understand that Japanese is length sensitive but did this used to be two
> mora? How would it be written then しちゃーだめ or しちゃあだめ? Neither
> makes sense to me and I think I've only heard it with a shortened しちゃだめ
> .
>

Bart's interpretation is 100% same as mine. :)

> In fact, is there really a は in there at all? I thought this was simply a
> contraction of shite shimatte dame not shite shimatte ha dame. I just always
> thought the -u form of shimau becomes chau while the -te form of shimau
> becomes chatte and that cha was a further contraction of this (the
> imperative is chae.) I wasn't under the impression that the cha implies an
> abbreviated は at all. Therefore shite shimatte dame da yo becomes shichatte
> dame da yo which is further contracted to shicha dame da yo. Is this wrong?
>

> Jeff

-chau ending is surely from -te-shimau.
-chae ending is from -te-shimae.

but
-chaa or -cha, I don't feel '-shima.u' inside, to say correctly,
I'd phrase it "-te-wa".

"-chau" equivalent of "-chaa", is "-shichattara" for me.

that is:
shicha dame <-- shichaa dame <-- shi-te-wa dame
shichattara dame <- shite shimattara dame
shichaunowa dame <- shite shimau-no-wa dame

in short, I sense "-wa" even in short version of "shicha".

muchan

muchan

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Dec 8, 2000, 7:54:02 AM12/8/00
to

Sho wrote:
>
> The lengthening of the final vowel, which Jeff wonders about, is a further
> adjustment made for the conditional form of the verb to fit into the very
> colloquial structure marked by "dame". When the preceding verb is short,
> especially single-moraed, as in the above, we sometimes feel an urge to
> lengthen it for an emphatic effect, though the shorter version is equally
> good, when said with more emotional control on the part of the speaker. I
> suppose Sean meant the suru to be a catchall expression for any verb, so I
> would take it that it should be expanded to the uses like
> "micha(a)/kicha(a)/itcha(a)/nicha(a) dame". Hmmm. The urge is particularly
> stronger with "shichaa". Probably has to do with the fact that "suru" is the
> formal version of "yaru," which seems like a better choice for this
> colloquialism. We probably need to corrupt "suru" to push it in.
>
> Sho

I don't think one of "-chaa" or "-cha" version is stronger in meaning.
I just think, that people speak fast, and the long vowels can become
shorter, when the meaning is clear.

(or it may be connected "Aduma" pronunciation, the phonetically tendency
remained from ancient lost language... while "Yamato" language or
modern Kansai dialect favors long vowels, Eastern pronunciation always
favored consonants, and shorten form, and "sokuon" or stop mora
(with small "tsu") for short form in conversation...)

muchan

muchan

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Dec 8, 2000, 7:55:53 AM12/8/00
to
Gerald B Mathias wrote:
>
>
> :> "Nonbee" isn't a word local to Hiroshima . . .
>
> : Sure. It's the old form still used in many places, but I think people use it
> : often down there. Martin says it occurs in "various dialects" and he cites
> : an example of a male speaker from Fukushima, with the short form 'be': "Atti
> : wa tokku ni yuki hutte samui -be na." Another colorful example: "Hiki-sio de
> : oki ni motte 'kareta no mo zuibun atta -be naa" trans: "Musta been a lot
> : carried out to sea by the ebb tide, too." Good translation!
>
> I'm a little surprised to read they use it in Hiroshima. It is usually
> described as a strictly eastern locution. Can anyone else confirm the
> western usage?
>

Hiroshima-ben is famous with "-ja-ken" "-ja-ken-noo" ending.

(Kinsai, kinsai, Hawai-e kinsai,
Washira-wa minna, Hiroshima-jaken...)

muchan

Jed Rothwell

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Dec 8, 2000, 10:13:55 AM12/8/00
to
muchan writes:

> Hiroshima-ben is famous with "-ja-ken" "-ja-ken-noo" ending.
>
> (Kinsai, kinsai, Hawai-e kinsai,
> Washira-wa minna, Hiroshima-jaken...)

Yes indeed! It is so common, I used to think it was standard (hyoujungo).
Also "buti" meaning "big, lots."

There are some wonderful old words floating around in regional dialects. In
the Hiroshima countryside "inuru" means "kaeru; go home." For some reason
"yome" = "kanai," even when you have been married for 50 years. I do not
know if this is old, or a shift in meaning.

I have seen some web pages devoted to Kyoto - Osaka dialects, but I have not
seen one on Hiroshima, Yamaguchi or Kyushu dialects. I think they are fading
out. On the local trains, older people have the thick accents and
fascinating vocabulary, kids sound like TV. It's heartbreaking.

- Jed

muchan

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Dec 8, 2000, 11:44:06 AM12/8/00
to

Don't worry, they are not fading out at all. All the kids in Hiroshima
still speaks pure Hiroshima-ben there...

muchan

Jed Rothwell

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Dec 8, 2000, 2:37:11 PM12/8/00
to
muchan writes:

> Don't worry, they are not fading out at all. All the kids in Hiroshima
> still speaks pure Hiroshima-ben there...

Alas, they do not. I go there frequently, and I can hear the difference that
television and mobility have made. For that matter, you do not hear as many
"pure" Southern and Appalachian dialects in Georgia, West Virginia and
Pennsylvania as you used to. It is mostly the old folks who speak them,
especially the vocabulary. The Gullah coastal dialects in Georgia and the
Carolinas are fading. One Gullah speaker my wife met was so impenetrable,
his nephew interpreted for him. That shows how different Gullah was in its
heyday. I doubt there are many speakers left like that.

It is the price of progress, I guess. After they built a bridge from the
mainland to Ohsima Island in Yamaguchi, the native dandelion species went
into decline, traffic increased, outsiders moved in and insiders out. I was
bemoaning the situation one day when a friend of mine who lives there gave
me a copy of a newspaper article he wrote. As he said, "nobody wants to live
in a museum." People do not want to speak a dialect which brands them as
uneducated country hicks, or which other speakers do not readily understand.

- Jed

Gerald B Mathias

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Dec 8, 2000, 3:47:07 PM12/8/00
to
Sho <ym...@tky2.3web.ne.jp> wrote:


: The lengthening of the final vowel, which Jeff wonders about, is a further


: adjustment made for the conditional form of the verb to fit into the very
: colloquial structure marked by "dame".

Your use of "conditional form of the verb" worries me a bit. Are you
expanding the term to include "...-te-wa"? (Well, why not, I guess... I
myself tend to say "conditional" where others might say "provisional.)

But it also seemed possible you might be thinking of the "b"-drop
provisional, "surya(a), [soo] iya(a)," etc., which is rather different in
origin. (Not that "-ba" and "-wa" aren't related.)

Bart

Gerald B Mathias

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Dec 8, 2000, 3:53:57 PM12/8/00
to
muchan <muc...@promikra.si> wrote:

That much I know. I'm still curious about the use of "-be(i)" there.

It's not strange, necessarily to find similar things east and west that
don't occur in the middle (Kansai), such as "-sa" to "to, at," and the
simple HL accent type, but these are probably left over old stuff
separated by newer forms; I'd never heard that "-bei," relatively new
itself, was one of them.

Bart

Anthony J. Bryant

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Dec 8, 2000, 8:55:12 PM12/8/00
to
Jed Rothwell wrote:

>
> It is the price of progress, I guess. After they built a bridge from the
> mainland to Ohsima Island in Yamaguchi, the native dandelion species went
> into decline, traffic increased, outsiders moved in and insiders out. I was
> bemoaning the situation one day when a friend of mine who lives there gave
> me a copy of a newspaper article he wrote. As he said, "nobody wants to live
> in a museum." People do not want to speak a dialect which brands them as
> uneducated country hicks, or which other speakers do not readily understand.

I think you're underplaying the importance of television and radio in
eliminating dialectical variations.


Tony

Sho

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Dec 9, 2000, 8:01:43 AM12/9/00
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muchan <muc...@promikra.si> wrote in message
news:3A30D9EA...@promikra.si...

>
>
> Sho wrote:
> >
> > The lengthening of the final vowel, which Jeff wonders about, is a
further
> > adjustment made for the conditional form of the verb to fit into the
very
> > colloquial structure marked by "dame". When the preceding verb is short,
> > especially single-moraed, as in the above, we sometimes feel an urge to
> > lengthen it for an emphatic effect, though the shorter version is
equally
> > good, when said with more emotional control on the part of the speaker.
I
> > suppose Sean meant the suru to be a catchall expression for any verb, so
I
> > would take it that it should be expanded to the uses like
> > "micha(a)/kicha(a)/itcha(a)/nicha(a) dame". Hmmm. The urge is
particularly
> > stronger with "shichaa". Probably has to do with the fact that "suru" is
the
> > formal version of "yaru," which seems like a better choice for this
> > colloquialism. We probably need to corrupt "suru" to push it in.
> >
> > Sho
>
> I don't think one of "-chaa" or "-cha" version is stronger in meaning.
> I just think, that people speak fast, and the long vowels can become
> shorter, when the meaning is clear.

I guess the statement I made from the third to fourth line above was
probably quite misleading. What I really meant there was that the urge we
feel for the need to lengthen the last vowel of the colloquial version of
the "provisional" form of the verb "suru" seems to be considerably stronger
than the rest of the verbs I've given above. True, I also said the longer
versions bring about some emphatic effect. Maybe I should have made it
clearer by saying that lengthening helps to emphasize the provisional
meaning. I happen to believe, like Collin McCulley seems also to, that as
long as there are two different forms, there should be some difference in
meaning as well. Isn't there any sort of emotional color added to it at all?
Actually, what you seem to suggest above appears to me to be roughly the
same thing that I'm trying to say.

> (or it may be connected "Aduma" pronunciation, the phonetically tendency
> remained from ancient lost language... while "Yamato" language or
> modern Kansai dialect favors long vowels, Eastern pronunciation always
> favored consonants, and shorten form, and "sokuon" or stop mora
> (with small "tsu") for short form in conversation...)

Overall, I agree with you, but as far as the vowel lenthening in "...cha" is
concerned, I don't see much difference between "east and west." As Hiro
pointed out, Tora-san keeps saying that "Sore wo itchaa..."

Sho

Sho

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Dec 9, 2000, 8:01:36 AM12/9/00
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Gerald B Mathias <mat...@uhunix3.its.hawaii.edu> wrote in message
news:90rhcb$l0u$3...@news.hawaii.edu...

How did you know so much in detail how my disorganized mind was working at
the time? I think both of these points were floating about somewhere in the
back of my head. Anyway, I was not paying too much attention to the
grammatical sides of it, because my focus here was on explaining how it was
probably natural for muchan to give "shichaa" rather than "shicha".

I did go to the online version of Daijirin, and found the following:

ては

(連語)〔接続助詞「て」に係助詞「は」が付いたもの。上に来る語によっては
「では」となる〕
(1)ある事柄が実現した場合を仮定して、条件として示す。望ましくない事柄につ
いていうことが多い。もし…したら。「計画が敵に知られ―、せっかくの苦心も水の
泡だ」「この辺は危険ですから、泳いではいけません」

I'm somewhat relieved to find that some lexicographers "can" be nearly as
sloppy as I am in making the distinction between "provisional" and
"conditional". I do understand, though, that the "-ba" interpreation that I
might have appeared to imply by the way I said it should be driven out of
the focus.

Sho


>
> Bart


Jed Rothwell

unread,
Dec 9, 2000, 12:00:01 PM12/9/00
to
Anthony J. Bryant writes:

> > in a museum." People do not want to speak a dialect which brands them as
> > uneducated country hicks, or which other speakers do not readily
understand.
>
> I think you're underplaying the importance of television and radio in
> eliminating dialectical variations.

I didn't mean to underplay it! I listed it in the previous message. It is,
without doubt, of critical importance. On the other hand, I think that
people are more likely to rid themselves of dialects when they feel
embarrassed or second-class. People who have of self-confidence are less
likely to change their language. The British, who are loaded with
self-confidence, watch a lot of American television and movies, but it has
not affected their speech patterns much.

Sometimes, it is a deliberate process. Here in Atlanta, there are classes to
help people rid themselves of thick southern accents. What a horrible thing
to do! Imagine trying to change the way your mother taught you to speak.
U.S. Southern accents are wonderful.

- Jed

Gerald B Mathias

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Dec 9, 2000, 4:31:41 PM12/9/00
to
Sho <ym...@tky2.3web.ne.jp> wrote:


: I'm somewhat relieved to find that some lexicographers "can" be nearly as


: sloppy as I am in making the distinction between "provisional" and
: "conditional".

I wonder if anyone makes the Japanese "conditional" ~=
"provisional" distinction besides American linguists and pedagogs under
Bloch's influence?

Ten minutes after reading Bloch's explanation, I will have forgotten the
rationale for those terms.

Bart

Collin McCulley

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Dec 9, 2000, 5:28:50 PM12/9/00
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"Gerald B Mathias" <mat...@uhunix3.its.hawaii.edu> wrote in message
news:90u8bt$24a$1...@news.hawaii.edu...

> Sho <ym...@tky2.3web.ne.jp> wrote:
>
>
> : I'm somewhat relieved to find that some lexicographers "can" be
nearly as
> : sloppy as I am in making the distinction between "provisional" and
> : "conditional".
>
> I wonder if anyone makes the Japanese "conditional" ~=
> "provisional" distinction besides American linguists and pedagogs
under
> Bloch's influence?
>

This doesn't really apply to the discussion at hand, but...

My recent question was on the difference between provisional and
conditional, but on account of my poor examples I didn't really get a
clear understanding. I let it go, as I usually do, since I know I will
cross that bridge when I come to it -- I usually ask these questions to
try to get the aerial view first.

I've seen provisional as the name for the "-ba" form, and
conditional as the name for the past + "-ra" form, but what _is_ the
difference in usage between these two forms, terminology aside? Any?
Can they be used interchangably (as Bart seems to suggest), or not?

--Collin


Sho

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Dec 10, 2000, 4:28:25 AM12/10/00
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Collin McCulley <cmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:CmyY5.58965$yR4.1...@news1.rdc1.tx.home.com...

> My recent question was on the difference between provisional and
> conditional, but on account of my poor examples I didn't really get a
> clear understanding. I let it go, as I usually do, since I know I will
> cross that bridge when I come to it -- I usually ask these questions to
> try to get the aerial view first.
>
> I've seen provisional as the name for the "-ba" form, and
> conditional as the name for the past + "-ra" form, but what _is_ the
> difference in usage between these two forms, terminology aside? Any?
> Can they be used interchangably (as Bart seems to suggest), or not?

[-i adjective]
1. Samukereba, mado wo shimete kudasai. (If it is cold, close the windows.)
2. Samuinara, mado wo shimete kudasai.

I think the above are mostly used to refer to the current situation, though
the future reading is not entirely impossible. I don't see too much
difference in meaning between the two above. I think I get a relatively more
formal, therefore less considerate, tone with 2, (Why don't you just close
the windows yourself instead of complaining about it?) though the difference
is slight.

[-na adjective]
3. Kireide areba, nani mo shinakute ii. (If it's clean, you don't have to do
anything.
4. Kireinara, nani mo shinakute ii.

In this case, 3. is a bit heavier-sounding probably because of its
wordiness. 4. is far more commonly heard.

[Verb]
5. Arukeba juppun (/jippun/) kakarimasu. (If you walk, it'll take 10
minutes.)
6. Arukunara juppun (/jippun/) kakarimasu. (If you choose to walk, it will
take 10 minutes.)

I seem to sense the subject's volition in 6, where the condition is
specified by the use of a verb.

<Reference specifically to the future>
[adjective]

1a *Samuku nareba, mado wo shimete kudasai.
1b ?Samuku narunara, mado wo shimete kudasai.
1c Samuku naru you nara, mado wo shimete kudasai. (If it seems to get
colder...)
1d Samuku nattara mado wo shimete kudasai. (If you find it (for a fact) to
be cold...)

11. Samuku nareba iinaa! ([Hope it'll/Wish it would] get cold. )
12. Samuku nareba, okiru no ga iya ni naru. (If it gets cold(er), anyone
would hate to get up.)

3a. Kireini nareba, sore de ii. (If it will be clean, it'll be fine.)
4a. Kireini naru nara, sore de ii.

5a. Aruite ikeba juppun (/jippun/) kakarimasu. (If you go on foot, it'll
take 10 minutes.)
6a. Aruite ikunara juppun (/jippun/) kakarimasu. (If you choose to go on
foot, it will take 10 minutes.)

55. *Aruite ikeba, ki wo tsukete.
66. Aruite ikunara, ki wo tsukete. (If you mean to walk, (just) be careful
(on the way).)
55a. Aruite ikeba, sugu wakarimasu. (If you go on walking, you'll soon find
it.)

I don't know what I'm doing. I'm sure someone will be able to do the
explanation part.
Having the "screw cap" auxiliary or the verb concerned in the past tense
would entail further complications, I suppose.

Sho

>
> --Collin
>
>


Collin McCulley

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Dec 10, 2000, 1:15:47 PM12/10/00
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"Sho" <ym...@tky2.3web.ne.jp> wrote in message
news:90vibs$rjq$1...@news.osk.3web.ne.jp...

>
> Collin McCulley <cmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:CmyY5.58965$yR4.1...@news1.rdc1.tx.home.com...
>

Thanks, Sho. I'm almost to the cusp of understanding, but I have a few
questions...


> [-i adjective]
> 1. Samukereba, mado wo shimete kudasai. (If it is cold, close the
windows.)
> 2. Samuinara, mado wo shimete kudasai.
>

Maybe I'm trying to box it too much, but I'm trying to get at
provisional vs. conditional directly applied to the same word, so what
about "samukattara" as an alternative to "samukereba"? Does the
sentence fail utterly as:

Samukattara, mado wo shimete kudasai.

If not, does it have the same meaning as 1, or different somehow?

The formation you're making with "-nara" here and with "aruku" below I
haven't seen anywhere before. I presume it's a form of "da" -- in the
"na" form with a conditional ending? But how can that work with
verb+nara below?


> [Verb]
> 5. Arukeba juppun (/jippun/) kakarimasu. (If you walk, it'll take 10
> minutes.)
> 6. Arukunara juppun (/jippun/) kakarimasu. (If you choose to walk, it
will
> take 10 minutes.)
>
> I seem to sense the subject's volition in 6, where the condition is
> specified by the use of a verb.

Again, what would happen if you used "aruitara"? Is it even
possible?

> <Reference specifically to the future>
> [adjective]
>
> 1a *Samuku nareba, mado wo shimete kudasai.
> 1b ?Samuku narunara, mado wo shimete kudasai.

I presume your * means wrong and your ? means questionable...


Thanks for all the examples. They will come in handy.


--Collin


Sho

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Dec 10, 2000, 3:24:11 PM12/10/00
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Collin McCulley <cmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:nLPY5.60930$yR4.1...@news1.rdc1.tx.home.com...

>
> "Sho" <ym...@tky2.3web.ne.jp> wrote in message
> news:90vibs$rjq$1...@news.osk.3web.ne.jp...
> >
> > Collin McCulley <cmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > news:CmyY5.58965$yR4.1...@news1.rdc1.tx.home.com...
> >
>
> Thanks, Sho. I'm almost to the cusp of understanding, but I have a few
> questions...
>
>
> > [-i adjective]
> > 1. Samukereba, mado wo shimete kudasai. (If it is cold, close the
> windows.)
> > 2. Samuinara, mado wo shimete kudasai.
> >
>
> Maybe I'm trying to box it too much, but I'm trying to get at
> provisional vs. conditional directly applied to the same word, so what
> about "samukattara" as an alternative to "samukereba"? Does the
> sentence fail utterly as:
>
> Samukattara, mado wo shimete kudasai.

Assuming that it is a reference to the ongoing state, this is the most often
heard, actually. I was trying to avoid bringing up the past tense
inflection, because it looked already too messy for me to explain, and I'm
not at all clear about the difference in meaning. :-)

> If not, does it have the same meaning as 1, or different somehow?

I've always felt that English and Japanese share something in common in
regard to how they both treat the time element in the subjunctive mood. Of
course, this is not a "contrary to the fact" situation, but would it make
sense, even be a good sentence, if you said, "If it were cold (by any
chance), please feel free to close the windows." ? To me, "Samukattara..."
sounds more polite than either 1 or 2.

> The formation you're making with "-nara" here and with "aruku" below I
> haven't seen anywhere before. I presume it's a form of "da" -- in the
> "na" form with a conditional ending? But how can that work with
> verb+nara below?

Looks like I've "beaten the wrong bush, and a snake has come out". Would the
idea of the clausal nominalizer "no" having been deleted help you at all?
You could have "no" after the verb root, as in "aruku-no-nara".

> > [Verb]
> > 5. Arukeba juppun (/jippun/) kakarimasu. (If you walk, it'll take 10
> > minutes.)
> > 6. Arukunara juppun (/jippun/) kakarimasu. (If you choose to walk, it
> will
> > take 10 minutes.)
> >
> > I seem to sense the subject's volition in 6, where the condition is
> > specified by the use of a verb.
>
> Again, what would happen if you used "aruitara"? Is it even
> possible?

Perfectly good. Again, it would be comparable to "If you walked...," I
suppose. In English, you'd probably have to end the main clause by "it would
take 10 minutes," but in Japanese, you could choose between "j[u/i]ppun
[kakaru/kakaru-darou]," depending on how decisive you want to sound.

> > <Reference specifically to the future>
> > [adjective]
> >
> > 1a *Samuku nareba, mado wo shimete kudasai.
> > 1b ?Samuku narunara, mado wo shimete kudasai.
>
> I presume your * means wrong and your ? means questionable...

Sorry, I didn't mention it. You guessed about them correctly.

Sho


Collin McCulley

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Dec 10, 2000, 5:54:00 PM12/10/00
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"Sho" <ym...@tky2.3web.ne.jp> wrote in message
news:910r30$1osg$1...@news.osk.3web.ne.jp...
>

> > Samukattara, mado wo shimete kudasai.
>
> Assuming that it is a reference to the ongoing state, this is the most
often
> heard, actually. I was trying to avoid bringing up the past tense
> inflection, because it looked already too messy for me to explain, and
I'm
> not at all clear about the difference in meaning. :-)

Ongoing state? Given what I'm understanding from the below, I'm not
sure then how this would translate. What kind of situation would it
apply to?


> > If not, does it have the same meaning as 1, or different somehow?
>
> I've always felt that English and Japanese share something in common
in
> regard to how they both treat the time element in the subjunctive
mood. Of
> course, this is not a "contrary to the fact" situation, but would it
make
> sense, even be a good sentence, if you said, "If it were cold (by any
> chance), please feel free to close the windows." ? To me,
"Samukattara..."
> sounds more polite than either 1 or 2.

So what I'm hearing is that "samukattara" gives the sense of posing
a hypothesis contrary to fact ... a true case of "if it were..." In the
case of a verb "If s.o. were to [do] ..."
More applicable to a sentence like "If it were cold, I'd be turning
blue (but it's not -- that's why I'm this color)". Is that the case in
the Japanese as well?

In your English example, I'd be more comfortable with "It it were
cold, it _would be_ okay to close the windows." I can't explain, but it
wants to have that hedge in there that says it's a moot point unless the
condition is met. You already know that as I can see from the other
example below. Probably as far as the situation is concerned, "If it
gets/becomes cold, please feel free ..." is more natural.


> > The formation you're making with "-nara" here and with "aruku" below
I
> > haven't seen anywhere before. I presume it's a form of "da" -- in
the
> > "na" form with a conditional ending? But how can that work with
> > verb+nara below?
>
> Looks like I've "beaten the wrong bush, and a snake has come out".
Would the
> idea of the clausal nominalizer "no" having been deleted help you at
all?
> You could have "no" after the verb root, as in "aruku-no-nara".

So my guess on the origin of "nara" is right? I'm not entirely sure
what a clausal nominalizer "no" is but I get the sense that you mean
aruku in that case functions as a noun and can therefore be followed by
a copula form?


> > > [Verb]
> > > 5. Arukeba juppun (/jippun/) kakarimasu. (If you walk, it'll take
10
> > > minutes.)
> > > 6. Arukunara juppun (/jippun/) kakarimasu. (If you choose to walk,
it
> > will
> > > take 10 minutes.)
> > >
> > > I seem to sense the subject's volition in 6, where the condition
is
> > > specified by the use of a verb.
> >
> > Again, what would happen if you used "aruitara"? Is it even
> > possible?
>
> Perfectly good. Again, it would be comparable to "If you walked...," I
> suppose. In English, you'd probably have to end the main clause by "it
would
> take 10 minutes," but in Japanese, you could choose between
"j[u/i]ppun
> [kakaru/kakaru-darou]," depending on how decisive you want to sound.

I think now I've got a better sense of the answer to my question
about how the past tense "flavors" the conditional.


--Collin

s_y...@my-deja.com

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Dec 10, 2000, 8:00:47 PM12/10/00
to
In article <cQTY5.61560$yR4.1...@news1.rdc1.tx.home.com>,

"Collin McCulley" <cmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> "Sho" <ym...@tky2.3web.ne.jp> wrote in message
> news:910r30$1osg$1...@news.osk.3web.ne.jp...
> >
>
> > > Samukattara, mado wo shimete kudasai.
> >
> > Assuming that it is a reference to the ongoing state, this is the
most
> often
> > heard, actually. I was trying to avoid bringing up the past tense
> > inflection, because it looked already too messy for me to explain,
and
> I'm
> > not at all clear about the difference in meaning. :-)
>
> Ongoing state? Given what I'm understanding from the below, I'm
> not sure then how this would translate. What kind of situation would
> it apply to?

I meant the "present tense" situation as far as the conditional clause
goes. Suppose you put up at a seaside inn with not much heating system
to speak of, someone kimono-clad in charge of room service might give
you the words of caution. Anyway, all three of the discussed so far
would work in the same situation.

> So what I'm hearing is that "samukattara" gives the sense of
posing
> a hypothesis contrary to fact ... a true case of "if it were..." In
the
> case of a verb "If s.o. were to [do] ..."
> More applicable to a sentence like "If it were cold, I'd be
turning
> blue (but it's not -- that's why I'm this color)". Is that the case
in
> the Japanese as well?

Ah no. I just meant Japanese would also make use of the past tense of a
verb in the conditional clause, in hypothizing a situation contrary to
the fact. This is not a case where that applies, but some remnant of a
hypothetical element is working to express the speaker's stance
implying her understanding of the situation to be something like, "I
wouldn't consider it odd or strange if you felt this to be too cold for
you." Please note that this is all right out of my head and is not
anything that has been attested by linguistic experts.

> In your English example, I'd be more comfortable with "It it were
> cold, it _would be_ okay to close the windows." I can't explain, but
it
> wants to have that hedge in there that says it's a moot point unless
the
> condition is met. You already know that as I can see from the other
> example below. Probably as far as the situation is concerned, "If it
> gets/becomes cold, please feel free ..." is more natural.

Well yes, but in this case, though the tense in the conditional clause
is present, what you are really talking about is when the temperature
goes down in the future. In order to unmistakably have the hearer to
understand that you mean "If it gets/becomes cold, ...," you'd have to
say, "Samuku [naru (you) nara / nattara]..." On the other
hand, "Samukattara,..." would indicate that you mean "If it _is_ cold
(right at this moment, not in a couple of hours, maybe)..." even more
clearly than either "Samukereba, ..." or "Samuinara, ..."

> So my guess on the origin of "nara" is right? I'm not entirely
sure
> what a clausal nominalizer "no" is but I get the sense that you mean
> aruku in that case functions as a noun and can therefore be followed
by
> a copula form?

Yes, I think we share the same understanding in this regard. The
nominalizer particle is attached to the noun-modifying form of a verb,
giving the whole preceding clause involving that verb the noun
modifying status.

> I think now I've got a better sense of the answer to my question
> about how the past tense "flavors" the conditional.

I hope I'm not wildly off the track as I sometimes AM.

--
Sho


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Collin McCulley

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Dec 10, 2000, 10:20:31 PM12/10/00
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<s_y...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:9118vs$7lt$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...

> In article <cQTY5.61560$yR4.1...@news1.rdc1.tx.home.com>,
> "Collin McCulley" <cmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> I hope I'm not wildly off the track as I sometimes AM.
>

Don't worry. I'm not foolish enough to think I really understand
this stuff yet. :)

Thanks for the help.

--Collin


Sho

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Dec 10, 2000, 10:32:42 PM12/10/00
to
Correction, please.

<s_y...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:9118vs$7lt$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...

[...]

> Yes, I think we share the same understanding in this regard. The
> nominalizer particle is attached to the noun-modifying form of a verb,

> giving the whole preceding clause involving that verb *the noun
> modifying* status.

the noun modifying --> a noun clause

Sorry,

Sho

Gerald B Mathias

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Dec 11, 2000, 12:56:39 PM12/11/00
to
Collin McCulley <cmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote:

: I've seen provisional as the name for the "-ba" form, and


: conditional as the name for the past + "-ra" form, but what _is_ the
: difference in usage between these two forms, terminology aside? Any?
: Can they be used interchangably (as Bart seems to suggest), or not?

That suggestion wasn't intended.

Sho through another thing into the equation, so let me try to sort things
out from a slightly different perspective.

So-called "conditional"
Verbs: -tara (/-dara)
i-Adjectives: -kattara
everything else, including na-Adjectives and Nouns: -dattara

So-called "provisional"
Verbs: -(r)eba
i-Adjectives: -kereba
everything else: -nara

Sho compared two provisionals, "samukereba" and "samui-nara," where the
second falls into the "everything else" category. Here the "samui" could
be tagged "proposition/sentence/whatever." Kuno accounts for the
"proposition-nara" as something on the order of "if *you* think
..." thought this is a loose, short paraphrase. His explanation seemed to
jibe with my ~NS intuition, and I would tend to translate the
"window" sentences as "If it's cold (if you're cold), close the
window" for "-kereba" and "If it's cold for you (if you think it's cold),
then close the window" for the "-i-nara" form.

With verbs, it's the same thing, but the English might be more like this:
"ikeba" = "if/should you go" vs "iku-nara" = "if (you think) you're going
to go."

Getting "conditional" back into the discussion, in modern Japanese (but
this may be a change over the last hundred years), only the -tara(ba)
forms are used for "when X did Y" equations: "Doa-o akete mitara dare-mo
inakatta." A second difference between the "conditional" and the
"provisional" is that only the latter is used in "naranai/ikenai"
expressions of obligation: "ikanakereba naranai tokoro-ga arimasu-no-de
..."

It has always seemed to me that these two distinctions must be major clues
to the difference between the forms.

Bart

Gerald B Mathias

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Dec 11, 2000, 2:54:20 PM12/11/00
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Gerald B Mathias <mat...@uhunix3.its.hawaii.edu> wrote:

: Sho through another thing into the equation, so let me try to sort things


: out from a slightly different perspective.

I think that's Bart's new spelling for "threw." He's always looking for
ways to simplify things. That's why I think he's a simpleton.

Buck

s_y...@my-deja.com

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Dec 11, 2000, 7:22:21 PM12/11/00
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In article <913bdc$f1r$4...@news.hawaii.edu>,

Gerald B Mathias <mat...@uhunix3.its.hawaii.edu> wrote:

[...]

> I think that's Bart's new spelling for "threw."

I would've figgered this one out without the comment. After all, it was
me who blue it all. Thanks for straightening things out. I'll take a
good long look at your message preceding this one.

Hohoemi no Bakudan

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Dec 11, 2000, 7:40:26 PM12/11/00
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Trying to disguise yourself as Buck, so you can make fun of yourself, eh Bart?

- Max (Hohoemi no Bakudan)

--------------------
She's stuck in my heart now, where my blood belongs.
--------------------

Gerald B Mathias

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Dec 12, 2000, 3:43:51 PM12/12/00
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Hohoemi no Bakudan <maxom...@aol.com> wrote:

:>Gerald B Mathias <mat...@uhunix3.its.hawaii.edu> wrote:
:>
:>: Sho through another thing into the equation, so let me try to sort things
:>: out from a slightly different perspective.
:>
:>I think that's Bart's new spelling for "threw." He's always looking for
:>ways to simplify things. That's why I think he's a simpleton.
:>
:>Buck

: Trying to disguise yourself as Buck, so you can make fun of yourself, eh Bart?

(Just don't tell Buck!)

B

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