What is "Natsukashii"?
Satoru Miyazaki
saying "there is no signle English word that explains 'Natsukashii'".
I tend to agree with him. What do you, native speaker of English, think
about this? Can Bart Mathias, University of Hawaii, post something about
this?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Satoru Miyazaki 米国 美国
Pesticide Research Center ミシガン州立大学 Forschungszentrum 密西根州立大学
Michigan State University 農薬研究所 fuer Pestizide 農葯研究中心
U.S.A. 宮崎覚 Staatsuniversitaet
miya...@pilot.msu.edu von Michigan
Don Kirkman
>Recently I heard on NHK a prominent Japanese linguist KINDAICHI Haruhiko
>saying "there is no signle English word that explains 'Natsukashii'".
>I tend to agree with him. What do you, native speaker of English, think
>about this? Can Bart Mathias, University of Hawaii, post something about
>this?
IMO, the prominent linguist was taking bets on a sure thing. Except
possibly for technical or very simple terms, I'd wager there are very
few words in *any* language for which there is a one-to-one
correspondence in another language. That is the very nature of the
human thought and emotional processes and the languages in which they
are expressed. This is one of the joys and horizon-expanding benefits
of learning another language.
---
Don Kirkman
If I had a life I'd be having a mid-life crisis
Robert Seely
I agree with Don that one to one equivalents are a pointless search in
many cases. Natsukashii could be translated as nostalgic in many contexts
however. Sentimental would also work in many cases. Can't see why
Kindaichi chose this word to make a point. Was he saying that English
speakers can't feel natsukashii or just that many words don't work
one-to-one? If the former-he's wrong. If the later-well duh!!
Chuck Douglas
[edit of Satoru's and Don's post]
: I agree with Don that one to one equivalents are a pointless search in
: many cases. Natsukashii could be translated as nostalgic in many contexts
: however. Sentimental would also work in many cases. Can't see why
: Kindaichi chose this word to make a point. Was he saying that English
: speakers can't feel natsukashii or just that many words don't work
: one-to-one? If the former-he's wrong. If the later-well duh!!
Exactly right. While there is no exact English word like natsukashii,
English speakers certainly can feel it. They just don't seem to have
a specific word for it.
Likewise, Japanese seems to lack a word for "miss" as in "I miss her."
I would scarcely believe that Japanese were incapable of being able
to 'miss' someone in this manner even though they don't really have
a word for it (nor what would seem to be an appropriate phrase.)
--
Chuck Douglas -- chuc...@prairienet.org
"I don't pretend I have all the answers/Just the obvious ones"
--_Backbone_ by Baby Animals
Homepage now available at: http://jaka.nn.com/~chuckers
Ken Kobayashi
>Recently I heard on NHK a prominent Japanese linguist KINDAICHI Haruhiko
>saying "there is no signle English word that explains 'Natsukashii'".
I always thought that 'nostalgic' comes pretty close. Or to be more
exact, 'to have a nostalgic feeling about'. Ok, so that's not a single
word...
- Ken
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ken Kobayashi . "Too low they build,
kkob...@fas.harvard.edu . who build beneath the stars."
http://stargazer.student.harvard.edu/~ken/ . - Edward Young
Baz
>Recently I heard on NHK a prominent Japanese linguist KINDAICHI Haruhiko
>saying "there is no signle English word that explains 'Natsukashii'".
>I tend to agree with him. What do you, native speaker of English, think
>about this? Can Bart Mathias, University of Hawaii, post something about
>this?
I know I am not Bart, but I tend to think of "nostalgic". There are,
of course, many words / phrases:
"brings back fond memories"
"those were the days"
How do these sound?
Baz
cb...@tartarus.uwa.edu.au
http://www.uwa.edu.au/student/cbaz
ryan ginstrom
:Likewise, Japanese seems to lack a word for "miss" as in "I miss her."
does "koishii" mean something like to miss?
If not, how *would* you say that?
oshiete kudasai
Ryan Ginstrom
c...@leland.stanford.com
Albons
not have the importance or frequence of usage that natsukashii does.
Reuben Muns
>Nostalogic is pretty close to natukashii in literal meaning, but it does
>not have the importance or frequence of usage that natsukashii does.
A Japanese friend once told me that natsukashii also contains a
sense of longing to be with some person from your past.
Reuben
Mike Rosenlof
It's also got the meaning of missing something. For example, a Japanese
national living in the US might say
Ofuro ga natsukashii.
I miss a [japanese] bath.
I have heard this applied to people also.
-mike
--
----
Mike Rosenlof mros...@qualcomm.com
Qualcomm, Boulder Colorado (303)473-6798
James Caldwell
Miyazaki) writes:
>
>Recently I heard on NHK a prominent Japanese linguist KINDAICHI
Haruhiko
>saying "there is no signle English word that explains 'Natsukashii'".
>I tend to agree with him. What do you, native speaker of English,
think
>about this?
True, but what was the point he was trying to make? As a translator, I
know there are many words/concepts that can be expressed concisely in
one language but not the other, a point that it certainly doesn't take
a linguist to discern.
The way it was put, it sounds like another one of the experts with a
new twist on "Japan is special/unique because ...."
Ben Bullock
> IMO, the prominent linguist was taking bets on a sure thing. Except
> possibly for technical or very simple terms, I'd wager there are very
> few words in *any* language for which there is a one-to-one
> correspondence in another language.
Well, I think this is a rather wild exaggeration. Almost any noun
which describes a concrete object will be in one-to-one
correspondance, for example.
> That is the very nature of the human thought and emotional processes
> and the languages in which they are expressed.
I don't think this is necessarily true. However, I take your point,
and I have noticed that one of the ridiculous features of some
arguments on this group has been various people trying to match
exactly one English word with one Japanese one, even when this clearly
does not work.
I remember being surprised by "nomu", which cannot be expressed by one
English word.
--
Ben Bullock @ KEK (national lab. for high energy physics, Tsukuba, Japan)
e-mail: b...@theory.kek.jp www: http://theory.kek.jp:80/~ben/
Lance Bell
describes it accurately . The reason I say this is because as far as I
can see , it means lonely but it does not have the same strength as the
word lonely in a way but I have also found that it can convey a feeling
of greivance as well , so in another way it can seem to be stronger but
it all depends on the context . There seems to be a number of words like
that I think eg. samishi/sabishi and even genki to an extent .
The best example of not being able to translate E-J was when Isaw the
movie Predator in Japan . When Arnold Shwartneger says to the Alien "Your
an ugly mother fucker" the translation was "iyana-" . I cant think of a
way to convey that in Japanese .
Chuck Douglas
: Don Kirkman (do...@a.crl.com) wrote:
: > IMO, the prominent linguist was taking bets on a sure thing. Except
: > possibly for technical or very simple terms, I'd wager there are very
: > few words in *any* language for which there is a one-to-one
: > correspondence in another language.
: Well, I think this is a rather wild exaggeration. Almost any noun
: which describes a concrete object will be in one-to-one
: correspondance, for example.
I don't think that this is quite true unless both objects exist in both
languages. Otherwise you would end up using portmantous for the words
which can't really be described as being part of the orignal language.
Kangaroo, for example, is technically not English. It is the mapping
of the Australian Aborigine(sp) word for an animal that is a Kangaroo.
Same as with koala.
Mike Fester
: Recently I heard on NHK a prominent Japanese linguist KINDAICHI Haruhiko
: saying "there is no signle English word that explains 'Natsukashii'".
: I tend to agree with him. What do you, native speaker of English, think
: this?
This is probably true, BUT...
realistically, how many words in ANY language have a one-to-one
correspondence with a word in another language, especially words with
emotional overtones? You can usually get a one-to-one from the context,
but as a standalone...?
Mike
Don Kirkman
>Don Kirkman (do...@a.crl.com) wrote:
>
>> Except possibly for technical or very simple terms,I'd wager
>> there are very few words in *any* language for which there is a
>> one-to-one correspondence in another language.
>
>Well, I think this is a rather wild exaggeration. Almost any noun
>which describes a concrete object will be in one-to-one
>correspondance, for example.
Point taken, but how many nouns for concrete objects would there be
among the 100,000 or more words in a typical language? (I might even
try to make the point that a name for a concrete object could well be
considered a simple term, but I won't.) But even here, for example, is
a "jidousha" a "car?" Literally, it's an "automobile," which of course
the Greeks also would have called it :-) Gets very messy, doesn't it?
>
>> That is the very nature of the human thought and emotional processes
>> and the languages in which they are expressed.
>
>I don't think this is necessarily true. However, I take your point,
>and I have noticed that one of the ridiculous features of some
>arguments on this group has been various people trying to match
>exactly one English word with one Japanese one, even when this clearly
>does not work.
Yep, one of my biggest complaints about many language schools and books
:-)
Don Kirkman
>alb...@aol.com (Albons) wrote:
>
>>Nostalogic is pretty close to natukashii in literal meaning, but it does
>>not have the importance or frequence of usage that natsukashii does.
>
>A Japanese friend once told me that natsukashii also contains a
>sense of longing to be with some person from your past.
Since at a glance it *seems* to be related to netsu and natsu, could it
in a generalized way mean "warm and fuzzy [feeling]"?
Lance Bell
>I agree that "natsukashii" does not have one single english word that
>describes it accurately . The reason I say this is because as far as I
>can see , it means lonely but it does not have the same strength as the
>word lonely in a way but I have also found that it can convey a feeling
>of greivance as well , so in another way it can seem to be stronger but
>it all depends on the context . There seems to be a number of words like
>that I think eg. samishi/sabishi and even genki to an extent .
>
>l...@nucleus.ansto.gov.au
>
>
Sorry , stuffed this one up . Only God knows what I was thinking about
when I posted this . It would be best if you swap the words samishi for
natsukashii .
You can imajine the trouble I get myself into when I go to Japan . I
recall saying inaka opai which is a country brest instead of saying inaka
opai (Im full). There is no better way to learn than to have a go and
screw it up every so often I suppose .
Lance Bell
Stephen A. Carter
>
> Recently I heard on NHK a prominent Japanese linguist KINDAICHI Haruhiko
> saying "there is no signle English word that explains 'Natsukashii'".
> I tend to agree with him. What do you, native speaker of English, think
> about this?
I think Kindaichi is usually full of shit, but for once he got
something right.
It looks like the second-generation standard-bearer of linguistic
achievement in present-day Japan, after literally decades of diligent
study, has hit upon a linguistic universal: different languages say
the same thing in different ways.
(Of course, this fact is usually covered on the first day or so of any
undergraduate-level introductory course in linguistics in the west.)
Here's my native-speaker response to Kindaichi's wide-eyed
pronouncement: "Jishou gengo gakusha no kuse shite, sonna
shiroutokusai koto bakkari itterya, hito ni warawareru zo!"
--
Steve Carter High-Tech Information Center Nagoya Ltd.
Nagoya, Japan * Team OS/2 * ht...@gol.com
Gerald B Mathias
: Recently I heard on NHK a prominent Japanese linguist KINDAICHI Haruhiko
: saying "there is no signle English word that explains 'Natsukashii'".
: I tend to agree with him. What do you, native speaker of English, think
: this?
Hmmm, is this a loaded question? What did I do to get put on the spot?
As a matter of fact, I can't think of one English word that means
"nostalgia-inducing." But one needs a far greater knowledge of English
than mine to state that no such word exists.
I wonder what K. was trying to say? There are lots of Japanese words
that people who know them (such as the older nisei community) tend to
use even when speaking English for lack of neat English equivalents.
"Natsukashii" would be one of them, and so are "mottainai," "nasakenai,"
"arigatai," etc. Any J-E translator who handles dialog can add words
and phrases--"yoroshiku," "shikkarisuru" are a couple--that require
totally different, and rarely one-word, treatments from one context to
another. An experienced E-J translator could supply a list of English
words with no ready Japanese equivalents.
I take it for granted that words are not especially likely to have
equivalents across languages, but on the whole sentences, in a given
context, match. "Natsukashii, ne" and "Brings back memories, doesn't
it" would be equivalent in the right context.
I will grant that certain sentences can have different emotional effects
on different persons and different peoples. But if K. is asserting
that the word "natsukashii" predicates a feeling known only to
Japanese and to all Japanese, he ate too many prunes.
Bart Mathias
Gerald B Mathias
: rm...@primenet.com (Reuben Muns) wrote:
: >alb...@aol.com (Albons) wrote:
: >
: >>Nostalogic is pretty close to natukashii in literal meaning, but it does
: >>not have the importance or frequence of usage that natsukashii does.
: >
: >A Japanese friend once told me that natsukashii also contains a
: >sense of longing to be with some person from your past.
: Since at a glance it *seems* to be related to netsu and natsu, could it
: in a generalized way mean "warm and fuzzy [feeling]"?
: ---
: Don Kirkman
: If I had a life I'd be having a mid-life crisis
It has no relation to the Chinese word "netsu," and is not likely to
be related to the Japanese "natsu" either.
Most directly, it comes from the verb "natsuk-" 'to get attached (to)'
by the same "-ashi-/-oshi-/-ushi-" adjective formant as "isogashii,"
"osoroshii," etc.
"Natsuk-" might in turn be analyzable into "na" + "tsuk-," but I have
no good candidates for the "na."
Bart Mathias
Gerald B Mathias
: (snippet of previous post here)
: Ryan Ginstrom
: c...@leland.stanford.com
"aitai" is probably more common.
As long as it's a person, anyway, that you miss. If it's your car or
something, "koishii" would be better.
Reuben Muns
>Well, I think this is a rather wild exaggeration. Almost any noun
>which describes a concrete object will be in one-to-one
>correspondance, for example.
Say not so, good my Lord. Prithee which of the umpteen Iniuk
words for snow exactly corresponds to the English "snow"?
Reuben
Jack Roberts
Kumamoto who had both attended college in Nagasaki. As we were walking
around the town, one said to us;"ah, natsukashii". I was thinking about
how I felt whenever I visited my old University town and I knew exactly
what she meant. However I couldn't think of an English word to describe
that special warm feeling. "Nostalgic feeling" just sounds wrong.
I think Natsukashii is a word that describes a universal feeling, but we
don't have a good English equivalent. Just like deja vu, a nice short
French phrase to describe a feeling that has no English nor Japanese
equivalent! (For those who would try to translate deja vu, we already
know "kisikan"--paramnesia, and is too technical a term to describe the
feeling we feel when we experience deja vu.)
Jack
Satoru Miyazaki
(deleted)
>
>I wonder what K. was trying to say? There are lots of Japanese words
>that people who know them (such as the older nisei community) tend to
>use even when speaking English for lack of neat English equivalents.
>"Natsukashii" would be one of them, and so are "mottainai," "nasakenai,"
>"arigatai," etc. Any J-E translator who handles dialog can add words
>and phrases--"yoroshiku," "shikkarisuru" are a couple--that require
>totally different, and rarely one-word, treatments from one context to
>another. An experienced E-J translator could supply a list of English
>words with no ready Japanese equivalents.
>
Since I am not a liguist, I may be wrong, but like "natsukashii" that has
elements of "memory" and "longing", "mottainai", "nasakenai", "arigatai",
etc. contain more than one meaning simultaneously. In the case of English,
"miss" is an example.
Is there any glossary of Japanese/English words that are hard to translate
in a single word?
John Reeves
good point, although I suppose nouns are the most likely candidates.
I'm always surprised when I come across compound nouns in Japanese that
kind of match English compounds.
The only one I can think of now is "ama-gumo" from "ame" {rain} and "kumo"
{cloud}.
john reeves
Muneo Saito
>
>Satoru Miyazaki (miya...@pilot.msu.edu) wrote:
>: Recently I heard on NHK a prominent Japanese linguist KINDAICHI Haruhiko
>: saying "there is no signle English word that explains 'Natsukashii'".
>: I tend to agree with him. What do you, native speaker of English, think
>: about this? Can Bart Mathias, University of Hawaii, post something about
>: this?
>
>
>realistically, how many words in ANY language have a one-to-one
>correspondence with a word in another language, especially words with
>emotional overtones? You can usually get a one-to-one from the context,
>but as a standalone...?
It is indeed difficult to find one-to-one correspondence as a standalone
word.
I've found a good example which gives you all connotations of natsukashii.
Natsukashii feeling is fully packed in a ballad entitled "I left my heart in
San Francisco" or "Omoideno san huranshisuko". Literally, I think "natsukashii
san huranshisuko" is better translation.
Muneo Saito
Reuben Muns
>Say not so, good my Lord. Prithee which of the umpteen Iniuk
>words for snow exactly corresponds to the English "snow"?
OOPS. "Iniuk" should have been "Inuit". Sorry 'bout that.
Reuben
Mark Barton
sa...@jasco.co.jp writes:
>Subject: Re: What is "Natsukashii"?
>From: Muneo Saito, sa...@jasco.co.jp
>Date: 15 Feb 1996 08:30:44 GMT
I agree that covers nearly all of it. However I'll just confuse the
situation
by noting that I once went to a Japanese Catholic wedding and one of the
hymns began "Natsukashii Mihaha inoritamae". There is a bit of distance
in
English between the nostalgic feeling of "I left my heart in San
Francisco"
and anything I can think of to fill the gap in "... Mother of God pray
for
us".
Cheers,
Mark B.
J.C. Kelly
>I take it for granted that words are not especially likely to have
>equivalents across languages, but on the whole sentences, in a given
>context, match. "Natsukashii, ne" and "Brings back memories, doesn't
>it" would be equivalent in the right context.
In a different context, I think that I have also heard Japanese people
say "natsukashii" about things that they have no direct memory of.
Since I don't really remember when I may have heard this, I'll make up
an example (just an example) -- being in Kurashiki, which is a town
that has tried to maintain/recreate its Edo-era scenery. Even though
noone has memories of this era, I believe that even a person who has
never been there can say "Natsukasii, nee" while looking over the
scenery. In this situation, natsukashii would also be like "ah, for
the good old days" or something like that.
Is this way off base?
=====================================================================
J.C. Kelly 会者定離
Ashiya, Japan
jck...@gol.com
Kiyotake Yamazaki
I suppose 'natsukashii' could be used in the 'homesickness'.
I don't think English has a sentimental word for home like 'furusato' or
'umare kokyo' either. Germans use words like 'Heimat' 'Heimweh" which
are perhaps closer.
Another hard one is 'osananajimi' = childhood friend. I think the French
expression "ami d'enfance" sounds a bit better in this case.
--
kiyo yamazaki kyam...@ix.netcom.com
JT Conner/Nancy Conner
(deleted)
>
>I wonder what K. was trying to say? There are lots of Japanese words
>that people who know them (such as the older nisei community) tend to
>use even when speaking English for lack of neat English equivalents.
Following this thread, I had the same thought. A few such words
that have even come down to the sansei/yonsei (i.e., non-Japanese
speaking) population. "Enryo" is the obvious example. And maybe
"bento"? ;-)
Delurking briefly,
Nancy
con...@indy.net
Muneo Saito
>>I've found a good example which gives you all connotations of natsukashii.
>>Natsukashii feeling is fully packed in a ballad entitled "I left my heart in
>>San Francisco" or "Omoideno san huranshisuko". Literally, I think "natsukashii
>>san huranshisuko" is better translation.
>
>I agree that covers nearly all of it. However I'll just confuse the
>situation
>by noting that I once went to a Japanese Catholic wedding and one of the
>hymns began "Natsukashii Mihaha inoritamae". There is a bit of distance
>in
>English between the nostalgic feeling of "I left my heart in San
>Francisco"
>and anything I can think of to fill the gap in "... Mother of God pray
>for
>us".
Mark;
I guess the hymn you heard was *mihaha maria*. It starts something like this
*Mihaha maria..... natsukashiki ....tokoshinaeni ....shitaimatsuru.*
I used to be a memeber of a Catholic Church choir but I don't have the choir book
with me right now, therefore, I cannot give the exact words. However,
I remember the meaning. The point you confused is *We love natsukakii Mother
of God eternally.* In this case, natsukashii is used in a kind of similar way
to *to miss somebody* as somebody pointed out. To translate this connotation
into English is beyond my English skill, but please trace the follwoing
then you I hope will get it.
*natsukashii furusato* > *natsukashii okaasan* > *natsukashii Mother of God*
Natsukashii includes connotation of yasashii, shitawashii, etc. The verse is
written in Classical Japanese, therefore, the meaning of natsukashi(ki) may
differ a little from that of the modern word. I will try to get the exact
words and get back to you.
Cheers,
Muneo
Peter Kaub
Yoroshiku, Pete.s
Eric Weingartner
natsukashii
nostalgic
Muneo Saito
>Mark;
>
>I guess the hymn you heard was *mihaha maria*. It starts something like this
>*Mihaha maria..... natsukashiki ....tokoshinaeni ....shitaimatsuru.*
>I used to be a memeber of a Catholic Church choir but I don't have the choir book
>with me right now, therefore, I cannot give the exact words. However,
>I remember the meaning. The point you confused is *We love natsukakii Mother
> of God eternally.* In this case, natsukashii is used in a kind of similar way
>to *to miss somebody* as somebody pointed out. To translate this connotation
>into English is beyond my English skill, but please trace the follwoing
>then you I hope will get it.
>
>*natsukashii furusato* > *natsukashii okaasan* > *natsukashii Mother of God*
>
>Natsukashii includes connotation of yasashii, shitawashii, etc. The verse is
>written in Classical Japanese, therefore, the meaning of natsukashi(ki) may
>differ a little from that of the modern word. I will try to get the exact
>words and get back to you.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Muneo
Sorry that I could not find "Natsukashii Mihaha inoritamae" phrase in "mihaha maria."
Regards,
Muneo