Different stroke order for Chinese versus Japanese
Model1910
traditional chinese (versus simplified chinese used on the mainland).
I have noticed that the stroke order taught for Japanese is different
from what is taught for Chinese.
For example, the kanji for 'right', with kun reading migi, the first
stroke is the vertical stroke, then the horizontal stroke.
But for chinese, the first stroke is the horizontal, then the
vertical.
Anybody out there know anything about this?
Fin.
Johnnie Leung
"Model1910" <impactblue...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:p15duv4ri9vt6n627...@4ax.com...
>
> I have noticed that the stroke order taught for Japanese is different
> from what is taught for Chinese.
That's right. But you are opening up a can of worms if you dig any deeper.
Mainland China and Taiwan each has an official standard for character stroke
order, and these *differ* in many cases.
> For example, the kanji for 'right', with kun reading migi, the first
> stroke is the vertical stroke, then the horizontal stroke.
> But for chinese, the first stroke is the horizontal, then the
> vertical.
Yup. That's just one, and there are thousands more for you to discover. I
would say the Japanese version is inconsistent here. Contrast this with the
character for 'left' [hidari], which does begin with the horizontal stroke
(in Japanese).
> Anybody out there know anything about this?
Here are the Mainland Chinese and Japanese official standards.
Ministry of Education, Mainland China:
http://www.moe.edu.cn/moe-dept/yuxin/content/gfbz/scanning/zfjhzzx/gfbz30.htm
(stroke order for all 20902 Han characters in GB13000.1, which is equivalent
to ISO10646-1:1993 or Unicode 1.1)
Ministry of Education, Taiwan:
http://www.edu.tw/mandr/allbook/bishuen/c8.htm
(stroke order for 4808 'commonly-used' characters)
JL
Bart Mathias
> "Model1910" <impactblue...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
> news:p15duv4ri9vt6n627...@4ax.com...
> > I have noticed that the stroke order taught for Japanese is
> > different from what is taught for Chinese.
> ...
> > For example, the kanji for 'right', with kun reading migi, the
> > first stroke is the vertical stroke, then the horizontal stroke.
> > But for chinese, the first stroke is the horizontal, then the
> > vertical.
> Yup. That's just one, and there are thousands more for you to
> discover. I would say the Japanese version is inconsistent here.
> Contrast this with the character for 'left' [hidari], which does
> begin with the horizontal stroke (in Japanese).
There have been all kinds of stroke orders used in China. I have
seen stroke order books that gave maybe four or five different ways
to right "horse," for example. I suspect that the stroke orders the
Mombusho supports have all been used in China. I did have to relearn
many from what my Korean teachers taught me however, when I started
teaching Japanese.
As for the supposed inconsistency between "right" and "left," it's
actually consistent from the point of view that in both cases the two
outside fingers are written before the middle finger and arm. It's
the same way for "have," with a right hand and a piece of meat.
Chinese and Japanese *print* the character for "9" differently, the
Japanese doing the down stroke first, the Chinese the horizontal.
But when Chinese *write* it cursively, they tend to use the Japanese
order, and connect the strokes a little in a loop on the left. Think
how ugly it would be if the strokes ended up connected in the other
order.
Bart
Model1910
<jsl...@telecom-digest.zzn.com> wrote:
>Yup. That's just one, and there are thousands more for you to discover. I
>would say the Japanese version is inconsistent here. Contrast this with the
>character for 'left' [hidari], which does begin with the horizontal stroke
>(in Japanese).
>
>> Anybody out there know anything about this?
>
>Here are the Mainland Chinese and Japanese official standards.
>
Yeah, I've discovered a few others already. I just wanted to make
sure my memory wasn't playing tricks on me.
Thanks for the links too.
Fin.
Bart Mathias
> ... I have
> seen stroke order books that gave maybe four or five different ways
> to right "horse," for example. ...
I'm pretty sure I didn't mean that. But there are thousands of ways
to wrong "horse."
Bart
Johnnie Leung
"Bart Mathias" <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote in message
news:D2.32.0T2MCc...@hawaii.edu...
>
> There have been all kinds of stroke orders used in China. I have
> seen stroke order books that gave maybe four or five different ways
> to right "horse," for example. I suspect that the stroke orders the
> Mombusho supports have all been used in China.
From what I can determine, Japanese stroke orders are more sousho-(or
gyousho-) like, whereas Chinese ones tend to follow kaisho closely.
> As for the supposed inconsistency between "right" and "left," it's
> actually consistent from the point of view that in both cases the two
> outside fingers are written before the middle finger and arm. It's
> the same way for "have," with a right hand and a piece of meat.
You *almost* convinced me there, except that we don't write on oracle bones
anymore. Having the stroke orders reversed because the characters have
opposite meanings makes perfect sense to me--not! (Just kidding.)
But if your theory is right (no pun intended), then the character for
'friend' [tomo], which is composed of two 'right' characters stacked
together, should naturally follow the stroke order of 'right' [migi]. Yet
that is not the case in Japanese.
> Chinese and Japanese *print* the character for "9" differently, the
> Japanese doing the down stroke first, the Chinese the horizontal.
No. Here all three (Japan, China and Taiwan) agree: left stroke (hetsu)
first, then hook (otsu).
JL
necoandjeff
I'm not sure about Chinese stroke order though I'm sure there are
differences with Japanese as you say. My understanding of the "logic" behind
Japanese stroke order is that they try for strokes that alternate between
vertical and horizontal as much as possible. When viewed in that light, the
internal difference between right and left in Japanese (i.e. the fact that
right starts with the diagonal stroke while left starts with the horizontal
stroke) makes complete sense. The first stroke of the box in right is
necessarily vertical and the first stroke in the "kou" of left is a
horizontal stroke and then you just back up two strokes from there. I also
think there have been changes in Japanese. If I recall correctly, I think
that if you ask most Japanese over a certain age how they write kanarazu,
most will write heart and then add a clash through it. Younger people will
alternate strokes the way your textbook probably says it should be written
(alternating strokes from the center outward.) But stroke order is certainly
not an exact science. The Ministry of Education has taken it upon itself to
set down a stroke order and at some point, judgments simply have to be made
(and are probably made differently from whoever makes similar decisions in
China.) Another interesting note, to my knowledge we don't have the
equivalent of standard stroke order in English. At least I've never heard of
such a thing. Yet the Japanese have put their love of orderliness to work
and come up with a standard that they teach to all Japanese students. Many
Japanese are surprised to learn that most native English speakers don't
follow the stroke order that they learned but rather follow their own.
Also, an aside about asking older Japanese questions and their answers being
different from what you may expect. Ask anyone over the age of about 50 or
so what the longest river in the world is. You may be surprised at what they
were all invariably taught in school.
Jeff
Bart Mathias
> "Bart Mathias" <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote ...
> > As for the supposed inconsistency between "right" and "left,"
> > it's actually consistent from the point of view that in both
> > cases the two outside fingers are written before the middle
> > finger and arm. It's the same way for "have," with a right hand
> > and a piece of meat.
> ...
> But if your theory is right (no pun intended), then the character
> for 'friend' [tomo], which is composed of two 'right' characters
> stacked together, should naturally follow the stroke order of
> 'right' [migi]. Yet that is not the case in Japanese.
It shouldn't be two right hands. If you hold hands with your tomo,
then one of you has to use your left hand, or else one is going to be
kicking the other as you walk along, right hand to right hand.
The second hand is written outside fingers first, so it must be the
right hand, which makes the first hand left. Obviously we are
observing the joined hands of two people facing us, not walking away.
> > Chinese and Japanese *print* the character for "9" differently,
> > the Japanese doing the down stroke first, the Chinese the
> > horizontal.
> No. Here all three (Japan, China and Taiwan) agree: left stroke
> (hetsu) first, then hook (otsu).
Interesting. The Chinese I had in my Japanese courses often
complained about the Japanese stroke order of that character.
Bart
Johnnie Leung
>
> It shouldn't be two right hands. If you hold hands with your tomo,
> then one of you has to use your left hand, or else one is going to be
> kicking the other as you walk along, right hand to right hand.
So you are guessing .
「説文」：友、同志為友、*从二又*。
又 = ancient form of 右 = the right hand.
JL
Bart Mathias
> "Bart Mathias" <mat...@hawaii.edu> wrote in message
> news:q4.l4.1T2yEO...@hawaii.edu...
> > It shouldn't be two right hands. If you hold hands with your
> > tomo, then one of you has to use your left hand, or else one is
> > going to be kicking the other as you walk along, right hand to
> > right hand.
> So you are guessing .
Well, it made sense. But you're right, older forms of the character
show two right hands. So I guess it was "Put 'er there, buddy!"
rather than walking along holding hands. (I trace the latter idea
back to Boodberg.)
Back to no explanation of why the other two "yuu" in question start
with the downstroke and this "yuu" starts with the horizontal.
One more thing that's going to ddrive me awake 3am in the mornings.
Bart