"Moshikashite" versus "moshikashitara"
Ken Yasumoto-Nicolson
uses "moshikashite" instead. Looking in my Canon Wordtank,
"moshikashitara" only appears in the J->E section, and "moshikashite"
only in J->J, with the definition "moshikasuruto", which doesn't
really help me.
Can anyone explain if there is any real difference in meanng between
the two forms.
Thanks,
Ken
Annie
<0rucpu8k6af8pnf3d...@4ax.com>
>Can anyone explain if there is any real difference in meanng between
>the two forms.
No difference, I think.
"Moshikasuruto" is a little more formal than the two forms.
--
Annie
mailto:ann...@gol.com
Bart Mathias
How about:
moshi-ka shitara = moshi-ka
moshi-ka shite = hyotto suru-to
moshi-ka suru-to = hyoito shitara
I would really miss my old classroom if it weren't for this
newsgroup!
Bart
chance kim
"Annie" <ann...@gol.com> wrote in message news:an8bol$f4q$2...@nnrp.gol.com...
> Ken Yasumoto-Nicolson <knic...@pobox.com> wrote in message
> <0rucpu8k6af8pnf3d...@4ax.com>
> >Can anyone explain if there is any real difference in meanng between
> >the two forms.
>
> No difference, I think.
Dosite hutatuga onajinanodesuka.
Mosikasite ano hitoga sindara dosuru.
Mosikasitara ano hitoga sindakamo siranai.
Kokodemo mosikasiteto mosikasitaraga tigaunoga hakkiri
siteirunjanainodesuka.
Kim Chang-su
Seoul, Corea
Phil Healey
chance kim wrote:
>
> Dosite hutatuga onajinanodesuka.
>
> Mosikasite ano hitoga sindara dosuru.
>
> Mosikasitara ano hitoga sindakamo siranai.
>
> Kokodemo mosikasiteto mosikasitaraga tigaunoga hakkiri
> siteirunjanainodesuka.
>
Hakkiri nanka shiteimasen yo.
Both of these examples sound unnatural to me. A simple "moshi" would be
better in the first example. I've never heard moshikashite used as it is
in the first example. Also I'm not quite sure why, but the second
example would sound better to me if it were "moshikashitara ano hito ga
shindeiru kamoshirenai." Either way, "moshikashite/moshikasuruto ano
hito ga shindeiru kamoshirenai" would sound just as natural to me.
Could you give some more examples?
Cindy
>
> Could you give some more examples?
>
バリエーション
「若し」
「若しか」
「若しくは」
「若しも」
「若しや」
「若しかすると」
「若しかして」
「若しかしたら」
簡単な例
「若し」 若し到着が予定より早かったら電話しますね。
「若しか」 若しかフライトがキャンセルになったらすぐ知らせてね。
「若しくは」 若しくは最寄の窓口でお問合せ下さい。
「若しも」 若しも私が男だったら、女性にやさしくしたでしょう。
「若しや」 若しやあなたは麻薬の密売人では？
「若しかすると」 頭が良いから、若しかすると、彼は東大に合格するかもしれ
ない。
「若しかして」 頭はそんなに良くないけど、親が裕福だから、若しかして、
それで、彼は医学部に裏口入学出来たのかもしれない。
「若しかしたら」 頑張り屋の彼のことだから、若しかしたら、ハーバードの大
学院まで奨学金が出るかもしれない。
Phil Healey
Cindy wrote:
> Phil Healey wrote:
>
>
>>Could you give some more examples?
>>
>
>
> バリエーション
>
[スニップ]
いやいや、そういう意味じゃなくて、chance kimさんが「一目瞭然だろう」って
言っているから、その違いを示すような例文がほしかったです。でも、例文をた
くさん書いてくれて、ありがとうございますと。
Cindy
その分からないところだけに焦点を絞って答えようとすると無理が出る時もある
でしょ。たまに包括的にというか、回り道をしてみて何か見えてくれたらいいか
なと思っています。ある時「ああいう例もあったな」って思い出す人がいたらい
いんじゃないですか？ chance kimさんだけじゃないでしょ、読んでる人は。
で、あなたは理屈で説明してあげたらいいじゃない？
Phil Healey
Cindy wrote:
>
> その分からないところだけに焦点を絞って答えようとすると無理が出る時もある
> でしょ。
言えてる言えてる
> たまに包括的にというか、回り道をしてみて何か見えてくれたらいいか
> なと思っています。ある時「ああいう例もあったな」って思い出す人がいたらい
> いんじゃないですか？
そうだそうだ
> chance kimさんだけじゃないでしょ、読んでる人は。
>
おっしゃるとおり！
> で、あなたは理屈で説明してあげたらいいじゃない？
>
いやいや。屁理屈は浮浪痢駄州立大学在学中の毛貧傲厭さんが担当しています。
chance kimさんは（おそらく）韓国人だとは思うんだけど、韓国語と日本語が非
常に似ているから我々西洋人とは違う観点から日本語を見ていると思って、
chance kimさんの意見をもっと詳しく聞きたいんです。
Annie
<anaaef$c55qj$1...@ID-81485.news.dfncis.de>
>
>
>"Annie" <ann...@gol.com> wrote in message news:an8bol$f4q$2...@nnrp.gol.com...
>> Ken Yasumoto-Nicolson <knic...@pobox.com> wrote in message
>> <0rucpu8k6af8pnf3d...@4ax.com>
>> >Can anyone explain if there is any real difference in meanng between
>> >the two forms.
>>
>> No difference, I think.
>Mosikasite ano hitoga sindara dosuru.
Tashikani.
"Moshika shitara ano hitoga sindara dosuru." is wired.
Maybe because a problem of syntax. I still don't think there is no
difference in meaning.
Can you give me other exaples?
>Mosikasitara ano hitoga sindakamo siranai.
But "moshikashite" and "moshikashitara" are exchangeable in this
example.
Mosika shitara ano hito ga sinda kamo siranai.
Mosika shite ano hito ga sinda kamo siranai.
--
Annie
mailto:ann...@gol.com
chance kim
"Phil Healey" <psa_h...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3D994914...@hotmail.com...
Healy sanga ossiatta toridesu. Bokuwa kankokujindesu.Healy sanwa dono
kunide irrassiaimasuka.
Sate 'mosikasite ano hitoga sindara dosuru'to
'mosikasitara ano hitoga sindakamo siranai'ni oite desuga
'mosikasite'to 'mosikasitara'no tigaio akirakani
surutameni ko kangaetara dodeshoka.
'Site'to 'sitara'o kurabete mimasio.'Aruku'o tukatte
sosite mimasio.
'Aruite iku'to 'arukereba iku'o kuraberu kotoni narunodesuga
sakini iutta tokorodewa 'aruite'ga 'iku'o tiokusetu
sengen site imasuga soreni hansite atoni iutta tokorodewa
'arukereba'wa 'iku'to iu kangae zenbuo sengen site imasu.
'Mosikasite'no kawarini 'dokasite'o irikaete mimasio.
Sosurto 'dokasite ano hitoga sinadara dosuru'to
'dokasitara ano hitoga sindakamo siranai'ni narimasu.
'Dokasite'to 'dokasitara'no tigaiwa motto akirakani
narudesho.
Kim Chang-su
Seoul,Corea
>
chance kim
"Annie" <ann...@gol.com> wrote in message news:ancag7$f13$1...@nnrp.gol.com...
'Mosikasite ano hitoga sindakamo siranai'dewa tiotto okasijanaidesuka.
Kim Chang-su
Seoul, Corea
>
> --
> Annie
> mailto:ann...@gol.com
Cindy
若しかして、あの人が死んだかもしれない。
「しらない」ではなく「しれない」ね。
そういう場合もあると思いますよ、可笑しくない。
例えば、
若しかして、李恩恵ではなく、金賢姫が死んだかもしれない。
Marcus Mas
Although the grammars of Korean and Japanese may be similar, you have to
*think* in Japanese, not Korean.
--
Marcus Mas
Phil Healey
Marcus Mas wrote:
>
>
>
> Although the grammars of Korean and Japanese may be similar, you have to
> *think* in Japanese, not Korean.
>
I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say, but what I meant is that
there might be something similar to moshikashite/shitara/suruto in
Korean, and each may be used in a completely different way. In Japanese,
as far as I can tell, they are all pretty much interchangeable.
Marcus Mas
Sorry, Phil. My comment was an indirect reference to Chance Kim and the
"fun" he gave us on "dou itashimashite." He lost credibility with what he
says about Japanese with me when he argued with NSOJ. And apparently, that
wasn't the first time he did it either. The feeling I've gotten from him is
that he thinks he's a NSOJ, but he's not and the examples he gives in
Japanese show it. While he may be outputting Japanese, he did it with
Korean thinking, not Japanese thinking.
--
Marcus Mas
Phil Healey
chance kim wrote:
>
> Healy sanga ossiatta toridesu. Bokuwa kankokujindesu.Healy sanwa dono
> kunide irrassiaimasuka.
>
Amerika desu.
> Sate 'mosikasite ano hitoga sindara dosuru'to
> 'mosikasitara ano hitoga sindakamo siranai'ni oite desuga
> 'mosikasite'to 'mosikasitara'no tigaio akirakani
> surutameni ko kangaetara dodeshoka.
>
> 'Site'to 'sitara'o kurabete mimasio.'Aruku'o tukatte
> sosite mimasio.
>
> 'Aruite iku'to 'arukereba iku'o kuraberu kotoni narunodesuga
> sakini iutta tokorodewa 'aruite'ga 'iku'o tiokusetu
> sengen site imasuga soreni hansite atoni iutta tokorodewa
> 'arukereba'wa 'iku'to iu kangae zenbuo sengen site imasu.
>
> 'Mosikasite'no kawarini 'dokasite'o irikaete mimasio.
>
> Sosurto 'dokasite ano hitoga sinadara dosuru'to
> 'dokasitara ano hitoga sindakamo siranai'ni narimasu.
>
> 'Dokasite'to 'dokasitara'no tigaiwa motto akirakani
> narudesho.
>
dokasu? eigo no "to shove/push out of the way"?
aa. naruhodo. gomen. "douka/dounika suru" ka. hai hai. eeto, kore ha imi
ha chigau yo ne. shikashi, kono reibun ni oite ha "douka shite ano hito
unnun" to iu no ha kim-san ga dou iu imiai de tsukatteiru ka chotto
wakaranai no. eiyaku wo tsukete kureru? oozappa na mono de ii kara.
chance kim
"Marcus Mas" <SSFF...@hotmail.com> wrote,
> Sorry, Phil. My comment was an indirect reference to Chance Kim and the
> "fun" he gave us on "dou itashimashite." He lost credibility with what he
> says about Japanese with me when he argued with NSOJ. And apparently,
that
> wasn't the first time he did it either. The feeling I've gotten from him
is
> that he thinks he's a NSOJ, but he's not and the examples he gives in
> Japanese show it. While he may be outputting Japanese, he did it with
> Korean thinking, not Japanese thinking.
Sosimasuto doitujinga eigoo hanasitara arewa doitujinno kangaede hanasite
irukara sono eigowa tadasikunai wakeni narimasuyone. Mata eikokujin datte
benkyosinakattara sono eikokujinno eigono mikataga itumo tadasitowa
ienaidesio.
Hutatabi kokode hanasitakuwa naikedo 'doitasimasite'no koto desuga
'Sumimasen'ni taisite 'Doitasimasite'to kotaetatoki
sono 'doitasimasite'no hatarakimonowa hanasumonodewa nakute
kikumonodatono kono hitono siutioniwa madamada
kawariwa arimasen. Konohito hitori so iutte irunodewa nainodesuyo.
Kim Chang-su
Seoul, Corea
Marcus Mas
As Lei Tanabe said to you in the thread, "doitashimashite," "This isn't a
matter of viewpoints." The issue is based on facts, not viewpoints. It's
not an issue that is up for debate. When it comes to learning another
language, Chance Kim, you have to discard the thinking that you have in your
native language which was influenced by your culture. Another part of
learning language is learning the culture to help understand why the
language expresses thoughts as it does. But let me ask you a question,
don't you think it's rude for you to argue with native speakers on issues?
You claimed that the best grammarians are outsiders, I don't believe that at
all. Native speakers will always understand it in a way that non-native
speakers won't.
>
> Kim Chang-su
> Seoul, Corea
--
Marcus Mas
chance kim
"Marcus Mas" <SSFF...@hotmail.com> wrote,
> As Lei Tanabe said to you in the thread, "doitashimashite," "This isn't a
> matter of viewpoints." The issue is based on facts, not viewpoints. It's
> not an issue that is up for debate. When it comes to learning another
> language, Chance Kim, you have to discard the thinking that you have in
your
> native language which was influenced by your culture. Another part of
> learning language is learning the culture to help understand why the
> language expresses thoughts as it does. But let me ask you a question,
> don't you think it's rude for you to argue with native speakers on issues?
> You claimed that the best grammarians are outsiders, I don't believe that
at
> all. Native speakers will always understand it in a way that non-native
> speakers won't.
Jijituwa mina mite iruno dewa arimasenka. Sono jijituno urani aru
mono, mienai mononi taisite gironga hajimattanja nainodesuka.
Tadati, 'doitasimasite'no mienai 'hatarakimono' [agent]ga
hanasuteka kikitekano mondaiga okottakara gironga
hajimattanodewa arimasenka. Jijituwa nanno mondainimo
narimasendesita. Kenkaiga mondaide attanodesu.
Sate, doitujinga matawa orandajinga eigoni taisite sorenarino kansatuo
okonattato site sorega tadasikudewa nakattatowa kitakotoga nainodesu.
Sorewa dositedesuka.
Kim Chang-su
Seoul, Corea
Marcus Mas
I never implied that non-NSs could never *learn* to understand language like
NS can. But learners of another language will never be better than a NS and
I would trust a NS's opinion over a non-NS's anyday. Seriously, I don't
know why you are making such a big deal over "dou itashimashite." "Itasu"
refers to the first person, whether singular or plural, DOING the action,
not who's listening to it, and not ANYONE else. "Itasu" will always refer
to "I" and "We"and not any other pronoun. What I have stated are facts, not
opinions. I don't think there is anyone who feels the way you do about "dou
itashimashite." By your logic, you seem to think what you want something to
mean, rather than accept what it actually is. The worst part is that you
can't even admit you are wrong. It takes a bigger man or woman to admit
when they're wrong. At least I can say I'm among them.
chance kim
"chance kim" <live...@edunet4u.net> wrote,
>
>
> Jijituwa mina mite iruno dewa arimasenka. Sono jijituno urani aru
> mono, mienai mononi taisite gironga hajimattanja nainodesuka.
> Tadati, 'doitasimasite'no mienai 'hatarakimono' [agent]ga
> hanasuteka kikitekano mondaiga okottakara gironga
> hajimattanodewa arimasenka. Jijituwa nanno mondainimo
> narimasendesita. Kenkaiga mondaide attanodesu.
>
> Sate, doitujinga matawa orandajinga eigoni taisite sorenarino kansatuo
> okonattato site sorega tadasikudewa nakattatowa kitakotoga nainodesu.
> Sorewa dositedesuka.
>
> Kim Chang-su
> Seoul, Corea
(垠垠徊扁怨咻屋姦怨咻姣扁契ㄘ垠徇奐怨咻ni taisite sitte irasiaimasuka.
Kim Sa-yop wa kankokujindesu.
chance kim
"Marcus Mas" <SSFF...@hotmail.com> wrote,
> I never implied that non-NSs could never *learn* to understand language
like
> NS can. But learners of another language will never be better than a NS
and
> I would trust a NS's opinion over a non-NS's anyday. Seriously, I don't
> know why you are making such a big deal over "dou itashimashite." "Itasu"
> refers to the first person, whether singular or plural, DOING the action,
> not who's listening to it, and not ANYONE else. "Itasu" will always refer
> to "I" and "We"and not any other pronoun. What I have stated are facts,
not
> opinions. I don't think there is anyone who feels the way you do about
"dou
> itashimashite." By your logic, you seem to think what you want something
to
> mean, rather than accept what it actually is. The worst part is that you
> can't even admit you are wrong. It takes a bigger man or woman to admit
> when they're wrong. At least I can say I'm among them.
Ima 'doitasimasite'o mondaini sitanowa sottide ari kottidewa
nakattakotoo hakkiri itte okimasu.
'Sumimasen'to iunoni 'doitasimasite'to kotaetemo
'itasu'no hatarakimonowa akumade daiichininsiodato iukotodesuka.
Naniga matigatte matigattato ieto ossiatte irassiarunodeshoka.
Kim Chang-su
Seoul, Corea
Marcus Mas
Yes. No matter when "itasu" is used, it always refers to the first person,
whether singular or plural. I don't someone would reply "dou itashimashite"
to someone who has said "sumimasen." But I'm not a NSOJ.
>
> Naniga matigatte matigattato ieto ossiatte irassiarunodeshoka.
I don't quite understand this sentence, but I'll try to reply. I'm a
factual person. To me, facts always supercede personal beliefs, feelings,
and opinions.
Annie
>'Aruite iku'to 'arukereba iku'o kuraberu kotoni narunodesuga
>sakini iutta tokorodewa 'aruite'ga 'iku'o tiokusetu
>sengen site imasuga soreni hansite atoni iutta tokorodewa
>'arukereba'wa 'iku'to iu kangae zenbuo sengen site imasu.
It is meaningless to compare "aruite iku"(to go on foot) and "arukereba
iku"(I'll go if I can walk).
彼は足を傷めていてほとんど歩けない。
歩けて（せいぜい）３歩だ。
歩けたとして（せいぜい）３歩だ。
たとえ歩けたとしても（せいぜい）３歩だ。
There is no difference in meaning among the three.
--
Annie
mailto:ann...@gol.com
Annie
>'Mosikasite ano hitoga sindakamo siranai'dewa tiotto okasijanaidesuka.
おかしいとは思いませんが。
ひょとしてあの人が死んだかもしれない。
ひょっとするとあの人が死んだかもしれない。
ひょっとしたらあの人が死んだかもしれない。
Do you think there are any difference amont the three?
--
Annie
mailto:ann...@gol.com