The Poseidon Adventure (1974) Wave Type
David Oberman
I've been confused about this for years.
isw
David Oberman <dobe...@socal.rr.com> wrote:
> What sort of wave actually struck the ship in THE POSEIDON ADVENTURE?
>
> I've been confused about this for years.
Water, mostly.
(Sorry, couldn't resist.)
Isaac
Belba Grubb
> What sort of wave actually struck the ship in THE POSEIDON ADVENTURE?
>
> I've been confused about this for years.
Apparently in the novel and the original film, it was supposed to be a
tsunami, which is ridiculous, out in the open ocean like that.
However, now that they think they have proven the existence of rogue
waves, it could have been one of those.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_wave
http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEMOKQL26WD_index_0.html
Barb
----------
Linda Rogo: "So that's the cat this ship is named after, huh?"
Captain Harrison: "That's right, Mrs Rogo. The Greek God Poseidon. God
of storms, tempests, earthquakes and other miscellaneous natural
disasters. Quite an ill-tempered fellow."
-- from "The Poseidon Adventure," 1972.
"Bacchus hath drowned more men than Neptune."
-- Thomas Fuller
Weatherlawyer
> On Oct 18, 3:33 pm, David Oberman <dober...@socal.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > What sort of wave actually struck the ship in THE POSEIDON ADVENTURE?
>
> tsunami, which is ridiculous, out in the open ocean like that.
> However, now that they think they have proven the existence of rogue
> waves, it could have been one of those.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_wave
>
> http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEMOKQL26WD_index_0.html
Many early accounts of roguewaves existed in the 19th centuries. Lone
survivors being the standard issue for all sorts of folk tales. A lone
survivor off a ship struck by a wave large enough to turn it over, had
their accounts related in journals aimed at navigators and sea-men.
Often they might not be required on deck if the captain called on all
hands because they were sick.
On a sailor facing a wall of water in an hurry the crew might all be
washed away.
There is an algorithm to work out the required ship to wave length and
how it works. But I forget if I even understood it first time round. I
think it is ship's length x 2 divided or multiplied by the depth of
keel and height of wave. Beats me why.
Ships caught in tidal waves tend to be carried to safety or to be
thrown inland. A US battleship was marooned on Rocks off a port in the
Caribbian IIRC in the 1920's. Lifeboats are tipped over all the time
and part of their survivability requires such assaults as part of
their acceptance tests.
Funny how they still fail when reality bites.
Rogue waves would relate to Newton's rings and are a condition of
magnification of earthquakes. That's my opinion at any rate. It is the
only one that approaches understanding why a severe jolt takes all
other regions of the charts. Some sort of rectification of the
acoustics has to be the only explanation.
Such things can't affect deep sea surfaces though. Not that once
formed surf, or swell as it is known at sea, can't cross thousands of
miles of ocean unperturbed. Two or three chains of swell will produce
a series of such rogues if they meet at sea or on land. Of course,
with a shallow, the wave would break.
That doesn't mean it would drag the tide out for 1/4 of an hour as it
can do with a tidal wave. It's just a meeting frought with danger
momentarily. A tidal wave is a series of events that behave as a
continuum. The sea reccieves a pulse and cariies it in the depths.
Deep ocean water is immune from ordinary tides.
All rather mysterious until one is gifted or touched.
(Then try and explain the damned obvious to people like that imbecile
Skywise or one of its predecessors here.)
Herschel
the ship is traveling over a shallow reef. The wave build-up is
because of this shoal or reef. THAT is why the ship is overturned and
sunk. Shelly Winters almost died in this movie from a heart attack
after the film was finished being shot.
Hatunen
<kafil...@temple.tv> wrote:
>If you watch the movie and "LISTEN" to the dialog, you will note that
>the ship is traveling over a shallow reef. The wave build-up is
>because of this shoal or reef. THAT is why the ship is overturned and
>sunk.
IMDb says the novel was written by Paul Gallico who had had
experience on the real Queen Mary when it was hit be a huge wave.
The QM had also been struck by a huge wave during WW2 while
transporting American soldiers. Such waves are now known to be a
bit common. No shoals required
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_wave
>Shelly Winters almost died in this movie from a heart attack
>after the film was finished being shot.
I'm having trouble following the time line here. Did she almost
die in the move or was it after filming was complete? If the
latter, are you saying she almost died due to the filming?
--
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Herschel
filming was wrapping up the underwater swimming scene. It was part of
the reason she died in the movie, she had to be taken to the hospital
for treatment and was held for four days and told to take it easy for
six months. Her double finished the scene for her. Her niece Alice
(Known as Lolly) is a friend of my sister and told her that it was
kept under wraps because there was a chance of her getting an Acadamy
Award for her role in the movie. Hollywierd is just that when it comes
to the politics in the industry.
Skywise
9227-a7e...@f16g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:
> (Then try and explain the damned obvious to people like that imbecile
> Skywise or one of its predecessors here.)
He loves me not...
Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?
Weatherlawyer
> >If you watch the movie and "LISTEN" to the dialog, you will note that
> >the ship is traveling over a shallow reef. The wave build-up is
> >because of this shoal or reef. THAT is why the ship is overturned and
> >sunk.
>
> IMDb says the novel was written by Paul Gallico who had had
> experience on the real Queen Mary when it was hit be a huge wave.
> The QM had also been struck by a huge wave during WW2 while
> transporting American soldiers. Such waves are now known to be a
> bit common. No shoals requiredhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_wave
Not exactly noted for his integrity in dealing with background
material, Mr Galico has never been a fanourite with me.
As for shallows or not sallows, the matter is significant when
considering the height possibilties of waves.
Two significant cyclones en route to "shallows" soon:
http://www.wmo.int/pages/mediacentre/news/index_en.html#ice
So you can all expect some severe earthquake reports to follow.
As it happens, there is usually news of significant travel disaster
with such events. I have never bothered to check the radius of
location of those but the quakes will be 80 degrees from any broaching
storms.
For the unwary, use a globe and a pair of dividers set to forty (I
keep thinking that should read fourty??) degrees. A bit of string
marked at the appropriate angular distances is also useful. (There are
sites on line that will tell you how to work out "great circle"
distances too.)
I tended to go through globes at a gallop when I was looking at this
phenomenon as I used engineers "dividers" without masking the points.
Some sticky tape will protect the globe from damage in use if you do
the same as me. Look at the references cited (NEIC do maps NOAA might
also provide locations. The MetO is a toilet at the moment so I never
bother with home groan stuff.)
Hatunen
<weathe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 19 Oct, 19:31, Hatunen <hatu...@cox.net> wrote:
>> On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 11:19:43 -0700, Herschel
>>
>> <kafildaf...@temple.tv> wrote:
>> >If you watch the movie and "LISTEN" to the dialog, you will note that
>> >the ship is traveling over a shallow reef. The wave build-up is
>> >because of this shoal or reef. THAT is why the ship is overturned and
>> >sunk.
>>
>> IMDb says the novel was written by Paul Gallico who had had
>> experience on the real Queen Mary when it was hit be a huge wave.
>> The QM had also been struck by a huge wave during WW2 while
>> transporting American soldiers. Such waves are now known to be a
>> bit common. No shoals requiredhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_wave
>
>Not exactly noted for his integrity in dealing with background
>material, Mr Galico has never been a fanourite with me.
>
>As for shallows or not sallows, the matter is significant when
>considering the height possibilties of waves.
For rogue waves, shallows or shoals don't matter at all.
Herschel
dialect states the words, "Rogue Wave", they say
"E A R T H Q U A K E".
Hatunen
Please note that I was responding to a specific statement of
weatherlawyer, to wit: "As for shallows or not sallows, the
matter is significant when considering the height possibilties of
waves."
Since you managed to delete the context of my statement, I
thought it a good idea to point it out to you, since you
apparently didn't actually read it.
David Oberman
Weatherlawyer
> >Watch the movie. "LISTEN" to the movie, 1974 version. None of the
> >dialect states the words, "Rogue Wave", they say
> >"E A R T H Q U A K E".
>
> Please note that I was responding to a specific statement of
> matter is significant when considering the height possibilties of
> waves."
>
> Since you managed to delete the context of my statement, I
> thought it a good idea to point it out to you, since you
> apparently didn't actually read it.
I was going by what I remember of the book but it was ages ago and I
doubt I read it all. But he did write about it being a quake causing
it (IIRC.) No doubt corrected by some hack in Hollywood who had
actually thought about the physics.
You don't get rogue waves in shallows* and you don't get tidal waves
in the deep sea. Some so called experts are mooting that the marine
transortation of tidal waves is via the deep sea, which would explain
their almost tide like behaviour inshore.
* Well you do but the height is governed by the rollers. Once they hit
the strand they can only reach to a certain height according to the
beach involved. The fable about every (insert prime number here)'th
wave being a wopper is due to the rotation of the rip tide.
Each wave hits and turns out left or right under the incoming. Ths
outflow then combines somewhere out on the bar, with another incoming
wave and gives it just that edge.
I'm not sure that this can work as they do not travel together
obviously. Or perhaps the outgoing pulse in its turn rotates the
incoming ones? I seem to remember the timing was rather coincidental
but I haven't been to the beach in a long, long time. (I was damned
sure of myself in those days.)
The idea of it being a prime number would obviously have some basis in
truth as any other number would have a counteractive harmony, would it
not?
Whilst I am gathering rosebuds:
The significant earthquakes I prophesied have failed to materialise.
Nothing knew their then, then.
There there...
Ah well.
Was my face red?
No not really. Besides I wear a beard and wash irregularly.
Belba Grubb
Down in the Caribbean there are some islands that a hurricane's storm
surge won't affect because it just goes around the island; it's not
true of all the islands, but I'll have to dig into the blog posts at
Weather Underground (where I read about it a few years ago) if anyone
wants more details. I wonder if a tsunami might work in a similar way.
Anyway, I wonder if a tsunami wave would build up in such a way on a
reef when there was nearby water deep enough for a cruise boat.
Where's the shallowing for the wave to build up and just how does it
then affect the ship out in deeper water?
Barb
--------
Physics is so confusing.
-- BGrubb, the story of my undergraduate days.
David Oberman
Imagine a seamount -- like Cortes off San Diego coast -- having any
sizable influence. Herschel is lying. There is no such dialog in the
original film, & that has nothing to do with the plot.
____
On the question of playing continuo during a Mozart concerto, I can only
reaffirm my belief that it is perfectly fine as long as it is inaudible.
-- Charles Rosen, "The Classical Style"
Hershel
watched it. The dialog is there. I guess her name calling shows what
sort of demented lowlife character she is. I have it on DVD and Tape.
You are uch a loser Doberman. A real loser.
Belba Grubb
offshore, and even in big hurricanes, they don't ever get much of a
surge. I don't know enough about the physics involved in tsunamis to
comment on the likelihood of a big wave piling up on a reef, but
without a harbor, nearby land, a bay, etc., to angle the sea bottom
upwards, it's hard to imagine such a thing happening. Was there such a
thing in the movie? (Note: I truly dislike the song "The Morning
After" and never watched it.)
As for the "Poseidon," some of the movie's scenes were filmed aboard
the original "Queen Mary," which displaced almost 82,000 tonnes. Where
such a ship was, there had to be some fairly deep water, and no pilot
would be steering it very close to a reef. How could the wave in the
shallows have gotten to the ship in the deep water?
It had to be a rogue wave.....
Barb
----------
"The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for
vengeance."
-- Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman, "Good Omens"
David Oberman
>Doberman, as in mutt, didn't listen to the movie. I bet she never
>watched it. The dialog is there. I guess her name calling shows what
>sort of demented lowlife character she is. I have it on DVD and Tape.
>You are uch a loser Doberman. A real loser.
Ruff-ruff.
David Oberman
>Cozumel...that's the place I was thinking of. There's deep water just
>offshore, and even in big hurricanes, they don't ever get much of a
>surge. I don't know enough about the physics involved in tsunamis to
>comment on the likelihood of a big wave piling up on a reef, but
>without a harbor, nearby land, a bay, etc., to angle the sea bottom
>upwards, it's hard to imagine such a thing happening. Was there such a
>thing in the movie?
No. The ship was out at sea, in both the book & the film.
>As for the "Poseidon," some of the movie's scenes were filmed aboard
>the original "Queen Mary," which displaced almost 82,000 tonnes.
The Queen Mary was also used for the "Werewolf" episode of THE NIGHT
STALKER on TV.
Belba Grubb
>The Queen Mary was also used for the "Werewolf" episode of THE NIGHT
>STALKER on TV.
I had a crush on Darren McGavin as a kid and used to love that show!
The QM also appeared in the background as an anachronism (purposely, I
suspect) in "The Crimson Pirate."
> No. The ship was out at sea, in both the book & the film.
Yeah, that's what I figured -- it would have taken some of the drama
out if rescuers had been close by, i.e., if it had capsized in a bay
or shallows or something, though that is where a big tsunami wave
would be most likely hit it. I still shudder at one of the December
2004 videos at Phuket (by a German, I think), shot from shore, that
showed a couple of relatively small Thai naval vessels patrolling,
then caught in the foam as the first wave came in, and then they were
gone--no buoyant force in foam.
Well, anyway, generally, it's the relatively small, quiet things that
sneak up on most people, combine in odd ways, and cause big trouble.
Was reading this excerpt from Dr. Jeff Masters' blog today about what
is currently Hurricane Ida, at wunderground.com, and thought of this
thread:
"Storm surge is the other concern. With a strong high pressure system
anchored voer [sic] the U.S. today, the pressure difference between
this high and Ida is creating a strong pressure gradient that will
drive tides 3 - 5 feet above normal from New Orleans to the Florida
Panhandle tonight. As Ida approaches on Monday, an additional rise in
water of another two feet is possible, and a large stretch of coast
will be subject to very high water levels for an extended period of
time. With high winds of 45 - 55 mph likely to build Monday afternoon
into Tuesday morning, significant coastal erosion event is shaping up.
A particular concern is the low-lying, heavily developed western end
of Alabama's Dauphin Island, where storm surges from four hurricanes
over the past fifteen years have caused heavy damage."
-- full post at http://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/comment.html?entrynum=1375
A foot here, a foot there, and pretty soon you're talking about real
water.
There is a post at http://www.aldora.com/hurricanestruth.htm that
attempts to distinguish the difference between surge caused by wind
and that caused by pressure; generally, the winds of a hurricane
create most of the surge (Katrina came in as a Category 3 in 2005, but
it had a Category 5 surge or pretty close to that because the
hurricane had only weakened from a 5 to a high-end 3 shortly before
its first landfall). However, the Ida example above shows how the
right circumstances can allow a much weaker storm to pack a big wallop
(right now, Ida is expected to reach, at most, Category 2 strength and
then rapidly weaken as it encounters hostile conditions once it gets
further out into the Gulf--it may or may not even be a hurricane when
it reaches the coast).
I don't think pressure differences account for rogue waves, but with
all this talk of ocean-going Queens, it's interesting to find that the
QE2 really was hit by a 95-foot rogue wave in 1995 (source:
http://core.ecu.edu/geology/woods/WAVES.htm ). Apparently the captain
"surfed" the wave(s); that would make an interesting movie, except
that there was little to no damage or loss of life or injuries.
Still...surfing a wave with the QE2...wow (this, from a source that
misdates the liner event, which happened on 9/11/95, but does mention
the Draupner oil platform getting hit that same year with a slightly
smaller wave: http://www.benthic.ca/report.cfm?report=65 )
Barb
-----------
This is what really happened to the dinosaurs:
http://icanhascheezburger.com/2009/11/06/funny-pictures-extincshun/
Hatunen
<dobe...@socal.rr.com> wrote:
>Belba Grubb <trungsi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>As for the "Poseidon," some of the movie's scenes were filmed aboard
>>the original "Queen Mary," which displaced almost 82,000 tonnes.
>The Queen Mary was also used for the "Werewolf" episode of THE NIGHT
>STALKER on TV.
The IMDb lists 80 films and episodes that used the Queen Mary.
Belba Grubb
> The IMDb lists 80 films and episodes that used the Queen Mary.
I couldn't find that list at IMDb but hunted up the liner's Web page
on the Web and found out two startling facts:
1. That wasn't the QM in "Crimson Pirate"; it was one of those more
modern "wedding-cake"-type liners (well, that startled me--BG).
2. The QM's draft was only 39 feet 4-something inches; amazing what
applied science can do! Anyway, such a vessel could have gotten pretty
close to a reef after all.
More info at http://www.queenmary.com/index.php?page=queenmarystats
A couple of clarifications, too, after sleeping on it: First, it's not
the actual pressure gradient that's going to contribute to the
upcoming coastal flooding in the Gulf, of course--it's the winds that
gradient will cause. The Gulf waters are being affected by two wind
fields, that caused by the pressure gradient between a 1000-plus high
pressure system over the Great Lakes and another low that's already in
the western Gulf, and that between the Great Lakes high and the 990-
something low pressure at the center of Ida.
Second, I was so dazzled by the image of the QE2 actually "surfing" a
monster wave in 1995 that I missed a reference in the same benthic.ca
article to the Queen Mary herself being hit by a rogue wave in 1942.
On looking into that further, I found the answer to the original
poster's question at Wikipedia:
"In December 1942, the Queen Mary was carrying exactly 16,082 American
troops from New York to Great Britain, a standing record for the most
passengers ever transported on one vessel.[9] While 700 miles from
Scotland during a gale, she was suddenly hit broadside by a rogue wave
that may have reached a height of 28 metres (92 ft). An account of
this crossing can be found in Walter Ford Carter's book, No Greater
Sacrifice, No Greater Love. Carter's father, Dr. Norval Carter, part
of the 110th Station Hospital on board at the time, wrote that at one
point the Queen Mary "damned near capsized... One moment the top deck
was at its usual height and then, swoom! Down, over, and forward she
would pitch." It was calculated later that the ship tilted 52 degrees,
and would have capsized had she rolled another 3 degrees.[10] The
incident inspired Paul Gallico to write his story, The Poseidon
Adventure, which was later made into a film by the same name, using
the Queen Mary as a stand-in for the SS Poseidon."
-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Queen_Mary#World_War_II
I wonder how much they would charge me for my very own machine-gun-
equipped lifeboat....
Barb
Hatunen
<trungsi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Nov 8, 5:08�pm, Hatunen <hatu...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> The IMDb lists 80 films and episodes that used the Queen Mary.
>
>I couldn't find that list at IMDb
It baffled me at first, but the secret is to choose a movie that
used the location, say The Poseidon adventure, click on filming
locations, which will give you the Queen Mary, then click on
Queen Mary. I don't know why they don't have a way to do a direct
search for film locations.
Which I mentioned, but with less detail, in my post of 19
October...
Belba Grubb
different order):
> <trungsister...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Which I mentioned, but with less detail, in my post of 19
> October...
Indeed you did sir, and I missed it. But wasn't that image of the QE2
surfing the monster wave worth the repetition, though!
One more irrelevant detail: while reading up on the Queens, I learned
about the "squat effect" (which probably was what led to the grounding
of the QE2 near Martha's Vineyard in 1992). It requires a rapid
forward motion, so upon reading at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squat_effect
that world's largest cruise ship, just 10 days ago, used it to pass
under a bridge--which basically had to involve aiming the ship at the
bridge and speeding towards it, knowing the upper portions of your
superstructure couldn't clear it--I have to accept that cruise ship
skippers are a courageous and a crazy lot.
> It baffled me at first, but the secret is to choose a movie that
> used the location, say The Poseidon adventure, click on filming
> locations, which will give you the Queen Mary, then click on
> Queen Mary. I don't know why they don't have a way to do a direct
> search for film locations.
Must...have..link...Ah! http://tinyurl.com/b5nnc2
I did an IMDb search of "volcano" and brought up a surprising number
of entries, including the USGS and a couple of volcano observatories
(scroll down to "Companies: Partial Matches"): http://www.imdb.com/find?s=all&q=volcano
Barb
----------
History is a symphony of echoes heard and unheard. It is a poem with
events as verses.
~Charles Angoff
Belba Grubb
Mobile NWS office has these thoughts on ex-Ida's impending landfall
(the cyclone has turned extratopical, but its forward speed--no squat
effect for storms--and the aforementioned pressure situation mean it's
still strong and has heightened effects in spite of its relatively low
former place on the Saffir-Simpson scale):
IF THE STORM COMES IN TO THE WEST OF [MOBILE] BAY...WE ARE
ANTICIPATING
TOTAL TIDE HEIGHTS OF 4-6 FT IN THE BAY AREA AND ACROSS SOUTHERN
BALDWIN COUNTY...WITH 4-5 FT POSSIBLE AROUND PENSACOLA AND CLOSER TO
3-4 FEET FURTHER EAST TOWARD DESTIN.
On top of that, there will be big waves; how big, I don't know, but
per the NWS seas are expected to be running 15-25 feet offshore
tomorrow. It's nowhere near a Katrina-type event, but there will be
some people there tonight wondering if there will be a morning
after...
...don't worry, there will be.
Barb
Weatherlawyer
> PS: If anyone is interested and/or in the Gulf Coast area tonight, the
> Mobile NWS office has these thoughts on ex-Ida's impending landfall
> (the cyclone has turned extratopical, but its forward speed--no squat
> effect for storms--and the aforementioned pressure situation mean it's
> still strong
>
> a morning after...
>
> ...don't worry, there will be.
Only some of us may not live to enjoy it -or not, as there case may
be.
Belba Grubb
> Only some of us may not live to enjoy it -or not, as there case may
> be.
The Gulf Coast actually made out pretty well with Ida; ex-Ida later
caused some record flooding along parts of the US southeastern and mid-
Atlantic coastlines, though, especially after it combined with another
strong system that formed out in the Atlantic and joined it/was
absorbed by it (am not really sure which happened).
Jeff Masters at Wunderground described it here:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/yd39p3m
and here:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/yd39p3m (nice satellite image of the mess
in this post).
On a potentially topical point, the media got confused when Ida was
sitting on the Caribbean side of the Central American isthmus and
another system (it hadn't yet become a tropical depression at that
point) was sitting close the same point but on the Pacific side, and
they attributed the tragedy in El Salvador (160-plus deaths, more than
13,000 homeless) to Ida, when of course, El Salvador is on the Pacific
side of things. It was the other tropical disturbance. The Wikipedia
entry has that correction, though their count of fatalities in El
Salvador is lower (I used the figure given in Dr. Masters' last entry
on that). Here is the link to the full Wikipedia "impact" section for
Ida/ex-Ida:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Ida_%282009%29#Impact
In the US: 1 Louisiana shrimperman and 5 or 6 (depending on how you
read the entry) in the SE/Mid-Atlantic region dead .
Some of these weak tropical cyclones can go on to do tremendous harm
as extratropical cyclones or even strong lows.
Was any of your recent bad weather in the UK attributable to ex-Ida?
Barb
----------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdrGS__yg6Q
Well, it's not always just a state of mind (gad that video--oddly
modern in its feel--makes me feel old!)
Belba Grubb
http://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/comment.html?entrynum=1382&tstamp=
Sorry!
Barb
Weatherlawyer
> On Nov 12, 8:24 am, Weatherlawyer <weatherlaw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Only some of us may not live to enjoy it -or not, as there case may
> > be.
>
> The Gulf Coast actually made out pretty well with Ida; ex-Ida later
> caused some record flooding along parts of the US southeastern and mid-
> Atlantic coastlines, though, especially after it combined with another
> strong system that formed out in the Atlantic and joined it/was
> absorbed by it (am not really sure which happened).
>
> Jeff Masters at Wunderground described it here:http://preview.tinyurl.com/yd39p3m
>
> in this post).
>
> On a potentially topical point, the media got confused when Ida was
> sitting on the Caribbean side of the Central American isthmus and
> another system (it hadn't yet become a tropical depression at that
> point) was sitting close the same point but on the Pacific side, and
> they attributed the tragedy in El Salvador (160-plus deaths, more than
> 13,000 homeless) to Ida, when of course, El Salvador is on the Pacific
> side of things. It was the other tropical disturbance. The Wikipedia
> entry has that correction, though their count of fatalities in El
> Salvador is lower (I used the figure given in Dr. Masters' last entry
> on that). Here is the link to the full Wikipedia "impact" section for
> Ida/ex-Ida:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Ida_%282009%29#Impact
>
> In the US: 1 Louisiana shrimperman and 5 or 6 (depending on how you
> read the entry) in the SE/Mid-Atlantic region dead .
>
> Some of these weak tropical cyclones can go on to do tremendous harm
> as extratropical cyclones or even strong lows.
>
> Was any of your recent bad weather in the UK attributable to ex-Ida?
>
> Barb
>
> Well, it's not always just a state of mind (gad that video--oddly
> modern in its feel--makes me feel old!)
What a bum the computers in this country are. I am in a public library
but it would be the same for a cybercafe. If they offer Microsoft
Orifice and you use a system that corresponds to international
standards, you are screwed.
I spen an hour last night replyinmg to you on Open Office, clicked the
USB thing and this hypercrapfest wont open the damned thing. I bet
they paid a screwfull and an half for that to happen.
Weatherlawyer
> On Nov 19, 6:54 pm, Belba Grubb <trungsister...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 12, 8:24 am, Weatherlawyer <weatherlaw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Only some of us may not live to enjoy it -or not, as there case may
> > > be.
>
> > The Gulf Coast actually made out pretty well with Ida; ex-Ida later
> > caused some record flooding along parts of the US southeastern and mid-
> > Atlantic coastlines, though, especially after it combined with another
> > strong system that formed out in the Atlantic and joined it/was
> > absorbed by it (am not really sure which happened).
>
> > Jeff Masters at Wunderground described it here:http://preview.tinyurl.com/yd39p3m
>
Then I went home and put the memory stick in the washing amchine.
Cleaned up a treat.
Newsgroups: sci.geo.earthquakes
Weatherlawyer <weatherlaw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Only some of us may not live to enjoy it -or not, as there case may be.
Belba Grubb <trungsister...@yahoo.com>
The Gulf Coast actually made out pretty well with Ida; ex-Ida later
caused some record flooding along parts of the US southeastern and
mid- Atlantic coastlines, though, especially after it combined with
another strong system that formed out in the Atlantic and joined it/
was absorbed by it (am not really sure which happened).
Jeff Masters at Wunderground described it here:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/yd39p3m
and here:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/yd39p3m (nice satellite image of the mess
in this post).
On a potentially topical point, the media got confused when Ida was
sitting on the Caribbean side of the Central American isthmus and
another system (it hadn't yet become a tropical depression at that
point) was sitting close the same point but on the Pacific side, and
they attributed the tragedy in El Salvador (160-plus deaths, more than
13,000 homeless) to Ida, when of course, El Salvador is on the Pacific
side of things.
It was the other tropical disturbance.
The Wikipedia entry has that correction, though their count of
fatalities in El Salvador is lower (I used the figure given in Dr.
Masters' last entry on that). Here is the link to the full Wikipedia
"impact" section for Ida/ex-Ida:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Ida_%282009%29#Impact
In the US: 1 Louisiana shrimper and 5 or 6 (depending on how you read
the entry) in the SE/Mid-Atlantic region died. Some of these weak
tropical cyclones can go on to do tremendous harm as extra-tropical
cyclones or even strong lows.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The bulk of the stuff congregates off shore just before it reaches the
continental shelf. Look for some sort of a barrier in the sea floors
where the Lows build. And of course, the continents themselves become
the barriers leading to the un-congregating of the pressure systems.
Which as this is a group meant to discuss all apects of seismic
argument, is on topic as it relates to the Aleutians.
The Aleutian chain of archipelagos is the same shape as the coastal
strip of the Rockies. And the central parts are a couple of island
systems called Rat and Fox IIRC. And these react to any activity
coming in from weather fronts 80 degrees away on a “great circle”.
Roughly where San Francisco should be if the Rockies were Aleut, their
background noise increases into quite substantial quaking.
Thomas gold links the surface waves in quakes to moving or exploding
methane. His Siljan Ring experiment site is duplicated in a few
regions on that latitude with strikingly similar geological features.
And the behaviour of microbes in suteranian regions does feature quite
a lot of coincident in circumstantial evidence of his beliefs.
(My only quibble is he didn't go far enough. I'll keep you posted
about that later.)
In meteorology they call these pressure waves building up or
deflating: con- and di~ vergence. But of course the ideals have got
lost in the laboratories. It's one thing to make the pieces fit the
maths and quite another to fit the maths to the realities. But on the
other hand, they are trying to get the best match out of a bunch of
least fit squares for a bunch of round pegs pronto.
It's easy to have second sight when the full force of the weather
comes in and all you can do about it is bury the dead.
***********************
Was any of your recent bad weather in the UK attributable to ex-Ida?
+++++++
I had no idea about any of the bad weather here or anywhere till today
(Saturday the 21st November 2009.) I had lost interest until the other
day. I wasn't watching the TV nor checking out news sites on-line. I
haven't really had much to do with the newsgroups but potter around
with a few blog posts as I worked out what I wanted to do next.
(It's nice to see that the children have gone from here. They only
existed because of people like me giving them interest in their sad
little lives. And when it was pointed out to them how shallow and
unproductive they were they seemed to desist.
(I wonder why I didn't tell them earlier.))
But my problems grew to enormous ones with this years anomalies. I
never got one thing right. Not a snifter. In 2005 I got so much on the
ball over the year that I rested on my laurels. I knew 2006 wasn't
going to be such an humdinger but I just let it slip, imagining I
could never suss it out.
This year I had tremendous problems with leg cramps. And I had
computer problems one after the other. (This is almost a given
constant when I am supposed to be paying attention. It is as if Satan
doesn't want me to know something interesting at just the worst
possible moment for things to go pop.)
At least leaving that lot alone will allow a couple of years to pass
so that the records and inspections can be posted up accurately on the
various archival sites. The leg cramps will show a major record of
tornadic behaviour not just in the USA this year. But the archivists
are very tardy. (And I got banned from your Storm Chasers' forum. Pity
Google doesn't annexe it. I could get in then, damned touchy buggers!
No sense of humour. Ah well who wants to Dave mankind anyway?)
Meanwhile I got fed up with being too clever for anyone else's good.
What is the point of pointing out the difficulties of a theory that
isn't correct (nor anywhere near) in the first place. It would be
better if I minded my own business and got my act together rather than
point out the inanities of geological stupidity.
I suppose they will pay attention one day.
I've just read Professor Thomas Gold's account of his purdah in the
wilderness looking to get someone interested in the realities of geo-
science.
It was refreshing and insightful. The man wasn't a good writer though
and I had to struggle to take it all in. And there was so much to do;
more than a couple of notes worth of new ideas on almost every page. A
lot of it was down to me thinking I knew where he was going and a lot
of it was down to him not getting there. Yet he pointed out a
continual stream of nuggets.
He explains in the section on earthquakes in not so many words -but it
is in there and the preceding chapter or so, just how those tremmor
shoals you pay so much attention to occur and why.
You will enjoy the book if you haven't already tried it. If you gave
up on a first attempt some time back, get hold of it again and make
notes on everything he says in a notebook.
Sometimes he brings out a detail he might have dropped in at an
earlier chapter and that enlivens things. Time and again I just fell
asleep with the writing style then something jumped out at me and
slapped me awake.
I thoroughly recommend it.
Quote from another book I am reading:
Hobbs began on the 9th asking to see the main blueprint for the whole
plant. He drew a pencil line through a third of it scrapping six
months work and 20 million dollars worth of plumbing. (US dollars, in
1943.)
“An uncomfortable silence fell over the stunned engineers” and the
chief engineer said: “The original design looks foolish all right but
you probably don't realise the horrible problems that the cascade and
the barriers and all the rest gave us.”
“I don't But never the less, from a purely mechanical stand-point, the
drawing stinks.”
Here's another:
“I don't believe in committee solutions.... they compromise between
the best and the worst. Committees are fine for setting out and
looking at problems but not for resolving them.”
And this is the best one and the point of my plaint:
“Extremely impatient in the face of stupidity or incompetence... he
was perfectly sincere while candidly lecturing his clients or
superiors. He would say:
“Look!
It's not MY way, it's the ONLY way.
It's not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing -it's just how nature
works. You can't vote to change the laws of gravity.””.
Idano. I haven't even looked. But then once something is done with I
lose interest. This year more so than usual. It's a sorrow that half a
dozen men died. For there families and friends but also for the earth
as we don't know what great things their progeny will no longer stand
a chance of inventing or doing.
Without being cavalier though, it was a very few. What happens with
storms from the USA is if they separate out one will go all over the
Mid West and then head for the coast just south of Canada. This may
happen at about the time another system comes in off Hatteras.
Sometimes the Southerner will join with the Yankee before they leave.
If not they will meet up off the Grand Banks.
In 2005 IIRC Bertha did that with another storm A or C I can't
remember. A C I imagine. Though early storms are not usually as strong
as the G and Aitches, maybe it was Ivan, that one split in two. It
took a week off, whatever, then hit us. Oddly for a positive anomaly
year it wasn't THAT bad. I'd have to look.
If you want to see archives of the North Atlantic try WetterZentrale
and look for the SST charts with the "Bracknell Fax" title. >
http://www.wetterzentrale.de/topkarten/fsfaxsem.html (Britain, as per
usual, thinks the general public are not yet ready for that sort of
service.(First place I'd start, if I was king.))
>
http://www2.wetter3.de/Archiv/archiv_dwd.html >
http://cimss.ssec.wisc.edu/goes/blog/archives/3838
Ah well. Back to the grin.
Weatherlawyer
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsww/Maps/10/190_55.php
MAP 2.5 2009/11/23 21:12:03 51.441 -176.901 25.4 ANDREANOF
ISLANDS, ALEUTIAN IS., ALASKA
MAP 4.7 2009/11/22 09:07:40 51.705 -176.929 73.2 ANDREANOF
ISLANDS, ALEUTIAN IS., ALASKA
I'm not sure but I believe Puerto Rico might be in the same circle.
Quite a few small quakes in that part of the world.
MAP 4.7 2009/11/19 23:17:31 51.089 177.701 43.6 RAT
ISLANDS, ALEUTIAN ISLANDS, ALASKA
MAP 2.6 2009/11/19 19:48:27 62.178 -151.882 111.9 CENTRAL
ALASKA
MAP 2.7 2009/11/19 18:39:18 52.379 -167.078 27.4 FOX
ISLANDS, ALEUTIAN ISLANDS, ALASKA
MAP 2.8 2009/11/19 16:07:11 52.772 -166.600 10.6 FOX
ISLANDS, ALEUTIAN ISLANDS, ALASKA
MAP 3.5 2009/11/19 14:36:27 52.531 -166.875 4.5 FOX
ISLANDS, ALEUTIAN ISLANDS, ALASKA
MAP 4.6 2009/11/19 14:08:44 52.680 -168.852 35.0 FOX
ISLANDS, ALEUTIAN ISLANDS, ALASKA
MAP 4.6 2009/11/19 13:53:26 53.238 -166.939 62.8 FOX
ISLANDS, ALEUTIAN ISLANDS, ALASKA
MAP 3.8 2009/11/19 13:53:14 52.230 -166.729 27.8 FOX
ISLANDS, ALEUTIAN ISLANDS, ALASKA
MAP 3.0 2009/11/19 13:41:27 52.634 -167.077 25.2 FOX
ISLANDS, ALEUTIAN ISLANDS, ALASKA