How will the US local area stations commerate the end of System-M?
Max Power
This footage is how the BBC commerated the end of System-A
-- http://youtube.com/watch?v=sG52HcgKaD4
-- I assume RTE (Ireland) had a similar commeration.
In each market, the NTSC transmitter shutdown will be historical, thus the
need for related programming.
One would expect that the programming, relating to the shutdown would be in
the public domain ... but I assume under some kind of GNU restrictions. I
don't know if there will be equal joy with respect to the end of NTSC in
Canada, or Bermuda or Mexico -- as the US more or less unilaterally imposed
System-M on these countries.
phil-new...@ipal.net
Who cares about the restrictions. OTA, especially analog, is easily recordable
and you know it will all end up on YouTube in less that a minute. I hope they
manage to get the ending of each and every station in the USA.
What I would like to see is that just after the final programming dealing with
the transition and analog shutdown, each station that existed back when stations
signed off for the night should carry out the same thing for this one last final
signoff. Typically that would be an annoucement of the station callsign and
other licensing parameters, often including city of license, transmitter power
and antenna height and location. Following that, usually some kind of national
anthem video, followed by a test pattern. What I'd like to see is that they do
this is some fashion showing all the old anthems and test patterns. I especially
would like to see as many stations end with the old Indian Head pattern (with ID)
at the actual shutoff instant. There should be the standard test tone with the
test pattern.
Anyone wanna guess how many of these transmitters get offered on EBAY?
--
|WARNING: Due to extreme spam, I no longer see any articles originating from |
| Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by more readers |
| you will need to find a different place to post on Usenet. |
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (email for humans: first name in lower case at ipal.net) |
Netmask
"Max Power" <mike...@washington.edu> wrote in message
news:fvbjpi$fhg$1...@gnus01.u.washington.edu...
Well I look forward to when we in Australia can ....... *commemorate*
closure of the analog system end of next year unless the pollies get cold
feet again..
phil-new...@ipal.net
If they are anything like in the USA, they have probably screwed up the process
and created difficulties and confusion for a great many people, which would lead
to complaints and demands to put it off until later.
Netmask
<phil-new...@ipal.net> wrote in message
news:fvc6v...@news3.newsguy.com...
spot on! it's been delayed twice...
G-squared
> In alt.video.digital-tv Netmask <netmask56NOS...@gmail.com> wrote:
> |
> | Well I look forward to when we in Australia can .......
*commemorate*
> | closure of the analog system end of next year unless the pollies
get cold
> | feet again..
>
> If they are anything like in the USA, they have probably screwed up
the process
> and created difficulties and confusion for a great many people,
which would lead
> to complaints and demands to put it off until later.
>
> --
> |WARNING: Due to extreme spam, I no longer see any articles
originating from |
> | Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers |
> | you will need to find a different place to post on
Usenet. |
> | Phil Howard KA9WGN (email for humans: first name in lower case at
ipal.net) |
In the most recent TV Technology magzine the manufacturers are asking
for an extension because they can't get the program guide info into
the PSIP scccurately when things change on the fly like a sporting
event running longer than expected. Like anybody uses that useless
'feature'. When I look for the EPG, it takes a LONG time because it
has to tune in all 20 carriers ( Los Angeles) for several seconds
each. Instead I use Yahoo TV listings.
GG
Jer
Since when does any sporting event not run long? Forget the damn
extension and forget the damn must-carry contracts - add a freaking hour
to the end of *every* sporting event to the EPG. That way, I won't have to.
--
jer
email reply - I am not a 'ten'
Albert Manfredi
> In the most recent TV Technology magzine the manufacturers are asking
> for an extension because they can't get the program guide info into
> the PSIP scccurately when things change on the fly like a sporting
> event running longer than expected. Like anybody uses that useless
> 'feature'. When I look for the EPG, it takes a LONG time because it
> has to tune in all 20 carriers ( Los Angeles) for several seconds
> each. Instead I use Yahoo TV listings.
I don't see why that should warrant an extension to the analog shutoff
date. Sounds more like another delaying tactic to me. As far as I'm
concerned, the faster analog is shut off, the better. Broadcasters
will finally optimize their digital plants, and interference from very
powerful analog stations will finally cease. The spectrum is just too
crowded as is.
As to the EPG, that's an anicllary function, not well implemented at
all, in my experience, and they can work the bugs out over time. I
also hardly ever use the EPG. For one thing, ever tried getting the
next day's schedule off it? Can't be done. Broadcasters don't include
that information. What good is it?
Bert
Jer
I can't know where DishTV gets their schedule info, but I can look two
days in advance if I want to. If I set a record event, the local system
will try to preserve it through any nightly schedule changes.
Albert Manfredi
> I can't know where DishTV gets their schedule info, but I can look two
> days in advance if I want to. If I set a record event, the local system
> will try to preserve it through any nightly schedule changes.
I don't think the problem is with divulging the information per se. I
think the problem is that the EPG system for over-the-air digital TV
in the US, which uses a protocol called PSIP, has had some buggie
software implementations in past receiver designs. So it's likely that
some older receivers malfunction if some of the PSIP modes are used.
In your case, sounds like you get the info via the EchoStar EPG
system, so no problem.
I know that just this sort of problem occurred a couple of years ago
with a software update NBC installed in their own stations. All of a
sudden, my receiver would freeze if I tuned into the local NBC -2
subchannel (which is a weather channel in this market). Once there, I
couldn't tune to any other channel unless I cycled power to the
receiver.
Suspecting some software bug, I called the station. The engineer told
me that this bug had hit all of the NBC-owned stations, so they had to
back out the upgrade, system wide. And that the problem only occurred
in one brand of receiver. (They did in fact fix the problem in a few
days.)
I suppose there will be such bugs from time to time. Still, the PSIP
EPG is not of much use, especially if you want to use it for PVR
programming. It's okay to look ahead at that evening's schedule,
though.
Bert
Jer
I've always presumed my DishTV box uses PSIP directly from the Echostar
constellation, but I don't know what DishTV's PSIP source is - maybe
it's their home brew. The good news is I can scan/skip ahead to a
future program, press the magic button on the clicker, and since it's in
the future, the Dish box will prompt me for a schedule - one time only,
daily, weekly, or forever at any time the same program shows up
regardless of when. I can also priority protect the event from
conflicts from other recorder events from other programs on the same or
other channels. Once I've set a recorder event, the program listings
impacted by the event are visibly marked as such - duplicate recorder
events are not my friend. I set it and forget it.
Bruce Tomlin
<3aa1c6f3-ee06-40e6...@y18g2000pre.googlegroups.com>,
G-squared <stra...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> In the most recent TV Technology magzine the manufacturers are asking
> for an extension because they can't get the program guide info into
> the PSIP scccurately when things change on the fly like a sporting
> event running longer than expected. Like anybody uses that useless
> 'feature'. When I look for the EPG, it takes a LONG time because it
> has to tune in all 20 carriers ( Los Angeles) for several seconds
> each. Instead I use Yahoo TV listings.
I have three different old HD tuners here, and only one of them even
supports EPG. On that one you have to tune to a given channel before
it'll pick up the EPG for it, with no "wait for the tuner to go through
every channel" thing going on.
Bruce Tomlin
<4b46caa6-d1c3-4e31...@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
Albert Manfredi <bert...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I don't see why that should warrant an extension to the analog shutoff
> date. Sounds more like another delaying tactic to me. As far as I'm
> concerned, the faster analog is shut off, the better. Broadcasters
> will finally optimize their digital plants, and interference from very
> powerful analog stations will finally cease. The spectrum is just too
> crowded as is.
I noticed the other day when I was down in San Antonio that between
there and here in Austin, the hardest to tune channels have their analog
on either channel N-1 or N+1. (8-9, 29-30, 42-43) The only Waco station
I get any signal from is adjacent to its analog channel (25-26), and
it's hard to tune sometimes too.
There's one case in Austin where two digital channels are adjacent
(21-22), and those are actually two of the easiest to tune in.
I'm wondering if this is a coincidence, or if an adjacent analog channel
(even from the same antenna farm) really does make an ATSC station hard
to tune in.
If this is true, then the shut-off can't come any too soon for me.
Gordon Burditt
>there and here in Austin, the hardest to tune channels have their analog
>on either channel N-1 or N+1. (8-9, 29-30, 42-43) The only Waco station
>I get any signal from is adjacent to its analog channel (25-26), and
>it's hard to tune sometimes too.
If the analog and digital channels are physically adjacent (in
frequency), then you're probably seeing adjacent-channel interference.
The digital station probably isn't at full power yet, but the analog
one is, which just makes things worse for the digital station.
If the two stations on adjacent frequencies are owned by the same
station, it probably doesn't want to make its analog transmissions
WORSE yet by using full power for digital.
>There's one case in Austin where two digital channels are adjacent
>(21-22), and those are actually two of the easiest to tune in.
>
>I'm wondering if this is a coincidence, or if an adjacent analog channel
>(even from the same antenna farm) really does make an ATSC station hard
>to tune in.
I think the same problem occurs with analog vs. analog adjacent
channels, keeping in mind that there are frequency gaps between
bands, so the FCC avoids allocating adjacent channels too close
together, even before any of this digital stuff came up.
Sal M. Onella
"Bruce Tomlin" <bruce#fanbo...@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
news:bruce#fanboy.net-32052...@news.newsreader.com...
> I'm wondering if this is a coincidence, or if an adjacent analog channel
> (even from the same antenna farm) really does make an ATSC station hard
> to tune in.
>
> If this is true, then the shut-off can't come any too soon for me.
KFMB is analog Ch 8 from Mount Soledad in San Diego. KFMB-DT is Ch 7 from
the same place. No problems -- BUT -- I am receiving them with a UHF
antenna. If I were to hook my box to a VHF antenna, the stronger signal
might show up a problem. I'll try it and see what happens.
I normally don't watch any VHF channels since all the locals are on cable
anyway. My real use for digital OTA is for LA stations that the local
cableco doesn't import. They're all UHF.
Sal M. Onella
The new Magnavox's EPG seems to be available in a second or two. The LONG
wait applies to my elderly Samsung box.
Funny, the Samsung finds two PBS subchannels that are blank - no A/V - and
the Magnavox doesn't. No idea what's up with that.
phil-new...@ipal.net
| If the analog and digital channels are physically adjacent (in
| frequency), then you're probably seeing adjacent-channel interference.
| The digital station probably isn't at full power yet, but the analog
| one is, which just makes things worse for the digital station.
|
| If the two stations on adjacent frequencies are owned by the same
| station, it probably doesn't want to make its analog transmissions
| WORSE yet by using full power for digital.
This would only be the case on especially cheap or antique TVs. Most TVs
work just fine with adjacent channels at the same strength. Otherwise
people would have had way too much trouble with cable TV over the past
many years and even decades. TVs I had in the 1970's worked fine with
the whole VHF band filled up. The later when I put up antennas to get
some UHF stations, two of them were 33 and 34. 33 was rather strong
being only 20 miles away, and 34 was rather weak being 90 miles away.
But 34 still worked. I also had 15 and 16, but both were a bit weak.
And this was on a couple hybrid TVs from the late 1969's, one from
RCA and one from Zenith.
| I think the same problem occurs with analog vs. analog adjacent
| channels, keeping in mind that there are frequency gaps between
| bands, so the FCC avoids allocating adjacent channels too close
| together, even before any of this digital stuff came up.
The issues might exist when both stations are overloading the tuner, or when
one is substantially stronger than the other. But I have generally had no
problem with adjacent channels in analog transmission. I expect even fewer
problems of this type with digital.
Dennis Majewicz
You guys are mixing this up a bit. No one is looking for an extension
to the analog shutoff date because of the dynamic PSIP requirement.
It's the fast-closing date of the new PSIP rule that's in question.
My guess is that most of the stations in this country have no way of
constantly updating the EIT to reflect sports running long, breaking
news or weather or even network special reports. Or how about Idol
running a few minutes long?
We're all looking into the hardware, software and automation changes
required, but there doesn't seem to be any way to meet the May 30
deadline. The manufacturers aren't ready. This is the extension we're
looking for.
DM
phil-new...@ipal.net
But be aware that KABC-DT, KCAL-DT, KTTV-DT, and KCOP-DT will all be going
back to their VHF allocations (7, 9, 11, 13) post-transition. And you are
probably going to have problems with KFLA-LD on channel 8.
http://www.rabbitears.info/dtr.php
phil-new...@ipal.net
| You guys are mixing this up a bit. No one is looking for an extension
| to the analog shutoff date because of the dynamic PSIP requirement.
| It's the fast-closing date of the new PSIP rule that's in question.
But it is an opportunity for Bob to propose yet another delay so he can then
propose to change the system over to COFDM.
| My guess is that most of the stations in this country have no way of
| constantly updating the EIT to reflect sports running long, breaking
| news or weather or even network special reports. Or how about Idol
| running a few minutes long?
Maybe not with current equipment. Smarter software programming on the
computers that do this is possible. With the right programmers on staff,
businesses could get this done in a couple weeks and release to testing.
Unfortunately, most big businesses prefer to hire "commodity programmers"
(e.g. someone on the upper edge of mediocre that will work for peanuts).
| We're all looking into the hardware, software and automation changes
| required, but there doesn't seem to be any way to meet the May 30
| deadline. The manufacturers aren't ready. This is the extension we're
| looking for.
And when was the rule change actually passed? Or even proposed? Did they
really not have enough time, or did they drag their feet hoping it would all
just "go away"?
Albert Manfredi
> I'm wondering if this is a coincidence, or if an adjacent analog channel
> (even from the same antenna farm) really does make an ATSC station hard
> to tune in.
>
> If this is true, then the shut-off can't come any too soon for me.
Yup. It's not a coincidence. Analog stations tend to transmit at much
higher ERP than their digital counterparts, and this was especially
true in the early days of the transition. So what happens is that
receivers with less than ideal selectivity, as many of the older
models are, will detect the strong analog adjacent channel and clamp
down their AGC. This will then cause the much weaker digital station
you're tuned to disappear in the noise level.
Matter of fact, FCC tests have shown that it's not just adjacent
channels that are vulnerable, but also N +/- 2, and in some cases,
others as well.
Anyway, I've noticed things improving over time, mostly because
broadcasters have either increased the power of the digital signal, or
improved the digital antenna location on the tower, or both. And since
adjacent digital stations don't seem to cause any problem, even with
my two older receivers, I can't help but believe that shutting off
analog will help matters.
Bert
Albert Manfredi
> You guys are mixing this up a bit. No one is looking for an extension
> to the analog shutoff date because of the dynamic PSIP requirement.
> It's the fast-closing date of the new PSIP rule that's in question.
Okay, you're right. I was mixing the two.
> My guess is that most of the stations in this country have no way of
> constantly updating the EIT to reflect sports running long, breaking
> news or weather or even network special reports. Or how about Idol
> running a few minutes long?
>
> We're all looking into the hardware, software and automation changes
> required, but there doesn't seem to be any way to meet the May 30
> deadline. The manufacturers aren't ready. This is the extension we're
> looking for.
How does this work? Is an automatic scheme necessary, or can the times
be changed manually? For example, if a program is going to un 30
minutes longer, and the station decides to shift the rest of the
evening's schedule by 30 minutes, is it difficult to change the times
manually?
Bert
phil-new...@ipal.net
| On May 1, 9:26?pm, Bruce Tomlin <bruce#fanboy....@127.0.0.1> wrote:
|
|> I'm wondering if this is a coincidence, or if an adjacent analog channel
|> (even from the same antenna farm) really does make an ATSC station hard
|> to tune in.
|>
|> If this is true, then the shut-off can't come any too soon for me.
|
| Yup. It's not a coincidence. Analog stations tend to transmit at much
| higher ERP than their digital counterparts, and this was especially
| true in the early days of the transition. So what happens is that
| receivers with less than ideal selectivity, as many of the older
| models are, will detect the strong analog adjacent channel and clamp
| down their AGC. This will then cause the much weaker digital station
| you're tuned to disappear in the noise level.
OTOH, if you put 2 stations on _adjacent_ channels, with the same ERP, then
they should be fine transmitting from the same tower.
Apparently it takes quite a strong signal to do that. Even though WPBY-TV
would boom right into my home in my teen to college years, I could still
get WOSU-TV just fine ... weak, but fine ... on a TV made around 1968.
WBPY-TV (then known as WMUL-TV) is on 33, and WOSU-TV is on 34.
Maybe it is the case that today's tuners, being all digital in design even
for analog signals, might have traded off more of the selectivity and are
actually worse.
Dennis Majewicz
>
>| We're all looking into the hardware, software and automation changes
>| required, but there doesn't seem to be any way to meet the May 30
>| deadline. The manufacturers aren't ready. This is the extension we're
>| looking for.
>
>And when was the rule change actually passed? Or even proposed? Did they
>really not have enough time, or did they drag their feet hoping it would all
>just "go away"?
It was made mandatory in the recent Report and Order by the FCC (3rd
Periodic Review) released on Jan 30 of this year. There has been no
foot dragging. It's generally considered too short a time to comply.
DM
Dennis Majewicz
<bert...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> We're all looking into the hardware, software and automation changes
>> required, but there doesn't seem to be any way to meet the May 30
>> deadline. The manufacturers aren't ready. This is the extension we're
>> looking for.
>
>How does this work? Is an automatic scheme necessary, or can the times
>be changed manually? For example, if a program is going to un 30
>minutes longer, and the station decides to shift the rest of the
>evening's schedule by 30 minutes, is it difficult to change the times
>manually?
>
>Bert
Changing the EIT entries manually can be achieved, I think, but it's a
clumsy process in some cases (I'm going by the system we use). You
have to understand that TV stations don't operate like they have in
the past. Staffing has been cut and in cases such as ours, we don't
even have a master control operator on site. We are fed from a "hub"
in a distant city and during some hours of the day there are no
operators around. Hiring someone to enter PSIP data is out of the
question so we have to rely on an automated system to handle it.
Originally the EIT was to be a static table - it did not change. Two
years ago it was ordered that a dynamic PSIP be implemented that would
show a minimun of 9 hours ahead and ideally 3 days or so of correct
program info. This is the system we use now. Every night the editor
goes out and collects the Tribune xml file and updates the PSIP
generator. It's automated and works fine. Now this has to change and
I'm not sure there's anything out there that will work seamlessly with
our current system.
But it's not just changing the times. The mandated "accurate
information" will have to include titles in the case of breaking news
or other specials. And consider sliding a whole evening's schedule
because sports ran long. Newscasts are sometimes collapsed or
eliminated. It can really pile up and get to be a chore. Information
from the playback server's automation is the key but is still under
development.
DM
Sal M. Onella
<phil-new...@ipal.net> wrote in message
news:fvfqv...@news4.newsguy.com...
> |
> | KFMB is analog Ch 8 from Mount Soledad in San Diego. KFMB-DT is Ch 7
from
> | the same place. No problems -- BUT -- I am receiving them with a UHF
> | antenna. If I were to hook my box to a VHF antenna, the stronger signal
> | might show up a problem. I'll try it and see what happens.
> |
> | I normally don't watch any VHF channels since all the locals are on
cable
> | anyway. My real use for digital OTA is for LA stations that the local
> | cableco doesn't import. They're all UHF.
>
> But be aware that KABC-DT, KCAL-DT, KTTV-DT, and KCOP-DT will all be going
> back to their VHF allocations (7, 9, 11, 13) post-transition. And you are
> probably going to have problems with KFLA-LD on channel 8.
>
> http://www.rabbitears.info/dtr.php
Thanks for the link. In/near San Diego, we will probably never see KFLA. I
see from the FCC web site that their antenna pattern has a deep null in my
direction and, given full-power KFMB or KFMB-DT on Ch 8 locally, that seals
it. (Maybe KFLA will never have anything I want. I'll hope.)
KCAL and KCBS are a duopoly, that is owned by the same company. I had heard
that on Day Zero KCBS-DT might move to Ch 9 and KCAL-DT might stay on Ch 43.
KCBS-DT must vacate Ch 60 on Day Zero and going digital on Ch 2 would seem
to be a bad move, given the known low-band noise problems. We shal see.
phil-new...@ipal.net
Four months to update firmware and deliver it to the field? That depends on
the changes. But I don't see a time issue there ... from the perspective of
a programmer who has also programmed embedded stuff and built and loaded it
into device flash images. OK, so if the FCC gives them a couple more months,
can the get it done then? When are they saying they can deliver?
phil-new...@ipal.net
| Changing the EIT entries manually can be achieved, I think, but it's a
| clumsy process in some cases (I'm going by the system we use). You
| have to understand that TV stations don't operate like they have in
| the past. Staffing has been cut and in cases such as ours, we don't
| even have a master control operator on site. We are fed from a "hub"
| in a distant city and during some hours of the day there are no
| operators around. Hiring someone to enter PSIP data is out of the
| question so we have to rely on an automated system to handle it.
The PSIP data should come from the "hub". It should come from whoever
is changing the programming.
| Originally the EIT was to be a static table - it did not change. Two
| years ago it was ordered that a dynamic PSIP be implemented that would
| show a minimun of 9 hours ahead and ideally 3 days or so of correct
| program info. This is the system we use now. Every night the editor
| goes out and collects the Tribune xml file and updates the PSIP
| generator. It's automated and works fine. Now this has to change and
| I'm not sure there's anything out there that will work seamlessly with
| our current system.
Can you send me the DTD for that XML file? Then I might be able to comment
on just how complicated the update can be.
| But it's not just changing the times. The mandated "accurate
| information" will have to include titles in the case of breaking news
| or other specials. And consider sliding a whole evening's schedule
| because sports ran long. Newscasts are sometimes collapsed or
| eliminated. It can really pile up and get to be a chore. Information
| from the playback server's automation is the key but is still under
| development.
So the problem is that tying it to the playback server has NOT been done,
and it was really just a reflection of the original traffic schedule?
G-squared
Who gives a hoot about those useless program guides anyway? Even if
they were all perfect, it is SO clunky to get the EPG updated as to be
useless. It takes the tuner minutes to go through all 18 carriers I
get. The TV is running on a computer anyway so Yahoo TV listings are
there in seconds and are more accurate besides
GG
Albert Manfredi
> Who gives a hoot about those useless program guides anyway? Even if
> they were all perfect, it is SO clunky to get the EPG updated as to be
> useless. It takes the tuner minutes to go through all 18 carriers I
> get. The TV is running on a computer anyway so Yahoo TV listings are
> there in seconds and are more accurate besides
Stations don't have a choice, though. They need to comply, whether
users care or not.
As a viewer, I tend to agree with you. I have two older receivers that
make you wait while they gather the info from a few stations, before
drawing the matrix. Then, if you scroll down or to the rigth far
enough, another long wait until the received fetches the added
information. But this is entirely receiver-dependent. It doesn't have
to be done this way.
I have a new PVR/DVD recorder that takes a different approach. It only
shows the station you're tuned to, and basically devalues PSIP
entirely. It doesn't even provide the PSIP time.
I get the feeling there's a chicken and egg thing going on here. As
long as stations don't populate their EPGs well, e.g. including making
data available for a few days ahead of time, users will ignore the
EPG, and manufacturers won't spend time and money making it right.
Ideally, this EPG stuff COULD be a selling point for manufacturers,
just as the EPG is what made TiVo famous. Ideally, you'd see
manufacturers bragging about their great PSIP EPG in TV ads. Instead,
all you see in TV ads is the cable and DBS companies trying to lure in
more subscribers.
Bert
Bruce Tomlin
<25ff7c5a-647f-4882...@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
Albert Manfredi <bert...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On May 1, 9:26 pm, Bruce Tomlin <bruce#fanboy....@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>
> > I'm wondering if this is a coincidence, or if an adjacent analog channel
> > (even from the same antenna farm) really does make an ATSC station hard
> > to tune in.
> >
> > If this is true, then the shut-off can't come any too soon for me.
>
> Yup. It's not a coincidence. Analog stations tend to transmit at much
> higher ERP than their digital counterparts, and this was especially
> true in the early days of the transition. So what happens is that
> receivers with less than ideal selectivity, as many of the older
> models are, will detect the strong analog adjacent channel and clamp
> down their AGC. This will then cause the much weaker digital station
> you're tuned to disappear in the noise level.
Ah, AGC. I'm not too strong on radio technology, but I do seem to recall
that AGC is what can cause volume to flutter on radio signals. And
crappy AGC is also what makes Macrovision possible. That would certainly
correspond with one of my situations, channel 30 (analog 29) in San
Antonio being good and bad in a constant 1 or 2 second cycle.
> Anyway, I've noticed things improving over time, mostly because
> broadcasters have either increased the power of the digital signal, or
> improved the digital antenna location on the tower, or both. And since
> adjacent digital stations don't seem to cause any problem, even with
> my two older receivers, I can't help but believe that shutting off
> analog will help matters.
Maybe that's the _real_ reason why Bob wants to see the analog cutoff
delayed... :-)
Bruce Tomlin
wrote:
> OTOH, if you put 2 stations on _adjacent_ channels, with the same ERP, then
> they should be fine transmitting from the same tower.
Except that from what I've seen, the maximum power UHF analog signal is
5 megawatts, and the maximum power UHF digital signal is 1 megawatt. So
if the analog is over a megawatt, they _wouldn't_ have the same ERP.
Bruce Tomlin
"Sal M. Onella" <salmo...@food.poisoning.org> wrote:
> Funny, the Samsung finds two PBS subchannels that are blank - no A/V - and
> the Magnavox doesn't. No idea what's up with that.
Do they show a different main channel number?
On the PBS here in Austin, two subchannels popped up recently on -5 and
-6, without PSIP channel reassignment (22-x instead of the renumbered
18-x). (They used to have subchannels on -3 and -4, but did away with
those over a year ago.) My old Panasonic tuner picked them up right
away, and even picked up both disappearing the other day, followed by -5
re-appearing. (They also used to have a blank -7 a few years ago, but I
deleted it and it didn't come back.)
My two other tuners, a DirecTV receiver with no dish, and a Sylvania,
won't tune the -5 or -6 by manually punching in the channel number, and
I don't want to do a rescan. So apparently some tuners are smarter than
others about mixed PSIP channel numbers, as well as subchannels
appearing and disappearing.
Doug Smith W9WI
> How does this work? Is an automatic scheme necessary, or can the times
> be changed manually? For example, if a program is going to un 30
> minutes longer, and the station decides to shift the rest of the
> evening's schedule by 30 minutes, is it difficult to change the times
> manually?
It can be done, and at least at our station it's not particularly
difficult to do so.
Problem is, the operator isn't going to have time to do it. It's
precisely when the schedule is changing that the operator is busy dealing
with the cascading effects of that change.
On the other hand, best I can tell while our automation vendor is
advertising an automatic link to the EPG, it's not actually available yet.
==================
BTW I concur with the comments about DTV receivers not implementing this
very well. Surely it wouldn't take that much memory to store the EITs
received from the station you're tuned to and display them in a grid along
with other stations' EITs when you hit the GUIDE button. In fact, one of
my STBs not only does that, but when you turn it off it continuously scans
and updates every station's EPG. And if it finds a new station (or new
subchannel) it adds it.
Doug Smith W9WI
Do note that analog and digital powers are measured differently.
Analog power is measured at the peak of the synchronizing pulse. Digital
power is averaged over a period of time.
1 megawatt of DTV power is more like 2-3 megawatts of analog. (depending
on analog program material...)
Doug Smith W9WI
> KCAL and KCBS are a duopoly, that is owned by the same company. I had heard
> that on Day Zero KCBS-DT might move to Ch 9 and KCAL-DT might stay on Ch 43.
> KCBS-DT must vacate Ch 60 on Day Zero and going digital on Ch 2 would seem
> to be a bad move, given the known low-band noise problems. We shal see.
KCAL-DT has filed to return to channel 9 on Transition Day. Same tower as
their current analog facility but it looks like they're going to use a
different antenna. (a directional antenna 7m lower than their existing
analog one) The permit hasn't been issued yet but 9 is their assigned
channel in the FCC's post-transition channel table.
KCBS-DT has received a permit to take over KCAL-DT's channel 43 facility
on Transition Day. The power will increase about 10% but the same antenna
will be used.
(one might guess that will confuse those viewers who don't realize they
need to rescan: suddenly, when they punch up channel 9 on their remotes
they're going to get channel 2!)
Sal M. Onella
"Doug Smith W9WI" <w9...@invalid.nospam> wrote in message
news:pan.2008.05.04....@invalid.nospam...
Thanks, Doug.
I saw that as another possibility and it means my life is just a skosh more
complicated, since I need a phased pair of antennas to put a local LPTV
outlet in a deep null on Ch 43 if I want to keep KCBS-DT as reliable as it
has been on Ch 60. KCAL-DT is only "in" about 20 percent of the time due to
the co-channel interference.
I already made one phased antenna pair for Ch 36 so I can get KNBC-DT.
(It's the same situation -- analog LPTV co-channel. It works perfectly.
The LPTV disappears.)
My house already looks like a pincushion with antennas, so I guess another
mast won't collapse the roof. (I need a tower.)
I wonder ... if I spaced the antenna pair for a frequency mid-way between Ch
36 and Ch 43, would partial phase cancellation be satisfactory on both 36
and 43? I doubt it but it's cheap to try.
"Sal"
(really KD6VKW)
phil-new...@ipal.net
A proper TV would detect the PSIP data mismatch and alert the viewer and
suggest the rescan. It may partially update its own channel table at that
point.
phil-new...@ipal.net
| I saw that as another possibility and it means my life is just a skosh more
| complicated, since I need a phased pair of antennas to put a local LPTV
| outlet in a deep null on Ch 43 if I want to keep KCBS-DT as reliable as it
| has been on Ch 60. KCAL-DT is only "in" about 20 percent of the time due to
| the co-channel interference.
Are you at the fringe of these stations, or is the FCC's method to figure
the interference defective (as I have for some time suspected)? Be sure to
file a complaint of interference with the FCC. LP stations are on the air
subject to not causing interference. You could end up forcing them to get
another channel.
| I already made one phased antenna pair for Ch 36 so I can get KNBC-DT.
| (It's the same situation -- analog LPTV co-channel. It works perfectly.
| The LPTV disappears.)
|
| My house already looks like a pincushion with antennas, so I guess another
| mast won't collapse the roof. (I need a tower.)
|
| I wonder ... if I spaced the antenna pair for a frequency mid-way between Ch
| 36 and Ch 43, would partial phase cancellation be satisfactory on both 36
| and 43? I doubt it but it's cheap to try.
Let us know.
G-squared
wrote:
> "Doug Smith W9WI" <w...@invalid.nospam> wrote in messagenews:pan.
2008.05.04.03...@invalid.nospam...
You may have seen this earlier but it sounds likeit may be helpful.
The page 2 garbage can version might work as well if it were made like
a shopping cart in welded wire and would offer much less wind loading.
Of course you could always put a 4 bay Channel Master in an actual
shopping cart. Heck homeless people take them. Might look a little
funny on the roof though.
http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~wn17/
GG
Doug Smith W9WI
> A proper TV would detect the PSIP data mismatch and alert the viewer and
> suggest the rescan. It may partially update its own channel table at that
> point.
I doubt most DTVs are that smart.
Detecting this would require noticing that the TSID has changed. I can't
think of any other reason to monitor the TSID. The number of cases where
the TSID on a given RF channel will change will be very small, and almost
all of them will happen on Feb. 18 2009. (unless the predictions of some
of massive RF channel swaps in the year or two after Transition come true)
I've my doubts most designers will bother.
phil-new...@ipal.net
Adding to this: what matters is the actual energy level of the sidebands that
carry the information. Analog TV wastes most of the energy on a carrier and
the sidebands that carry the sync pulses (important to get, but it is overkill
in the energy amount). Digital has a small pilot carrier and the rest is
virtually all sideband information. Digital also has some amount of error
correction coding.
Doug Smith W9WI
> On Sun, 04 May 2008 05:46:55 +0000, phil-news-nospam wrote:
>> A proper TV would detect the PSIP data mismatch and alert the viewer and
>> suggest the rescan. It may partially update its own channel table at that
>> point.
>
> I doubt most DTVs are that smart.
>
> Detecting this would require noticing that the TSID has changed. I can't
Ouch. Please pretend I didn't post this.
Detecting a change in the major_channel_number field would have the same
effect, and the major_channel_number also usually appears on the screen
when the "INFO" (or similar) button is pushed.
Still, I doubt most DTVs bother to monitor this for changes unless the
viewer initiates a scan.
Sal M. Onella
"G-squared" <stra...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b26a4bc1-01d5-4159...@h1g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~wn17/
GG
That is wonderful! I had not seen it before tonight.
I've toyed with using some sort of screen on the side of the antenna from
which the interfering signals arrive but not known how well it would work.
Apparently it's OK and needs exploring here.
There is however, the little matter of explaining to my neighbors why I have
a garbage can on the roof of my typical single family tract home. (The guy
in Atlanta had a flat roof, like maybe a condo building.)
I have a solution. If they whine about the garbage can, I'll just say
(completely without context), "Hey, would you rather it be a shopping cart?"
(Reminds me of the joke about the guy with the celery in his ear.)
OK, all kidding aside, I clearly have some more building to do. Watch this
space.
G-squared
wrote:
<snip>
I was thinking along the lines of a commercial trash bin like cities
use where they're made of perforated metal. I wonder just how 'deep'
the container has to be to narrow out the beamwidth to an acceptable
angle
GG
dmaster
As I understand it, there are two forms of EPG. In the first form,
each Digital TV station can insert it's programming information (for
all subchannels) in the PSIP stream and TVs and other devices can
display it. This guide is relatively worthless because it is so slow
to fill and contains so little information. (At least on my TVs.)
There is also the GemStar TV-Guide that is broadcast (usually) by the
supplier of the clock signal used to automatically set the TV device
clock. The GemStar Guide (after the initial 3 days) displays 7 days
of programming for all stations (OTA, cable, sat) for your market. My
Sony OTA HD-DVR uses the GemStar guide. The guide comes in a standard
grid with indicators for HD vs SD, New vs Repeat and program
synopsis. Stations can be switched or recordings set by clicking on a
guide entry. *This* guide is very useful and fuctional. However, the
manufacturer must license the guide software from GemStar.
Dan (Woj...)
Alan
I expect that most will get it right.
When a local station (univision) stopped transmitting their PSIP correctly,
their digital channel disappeared from 14.1 and appeared on 51.1. A few
months later when they figured it out and reset it, the next time the set saw
their signal, it moved them back to 14.1. (The set was a Sharp.)
Alan
Richard C.
In the most recent TV Technology magzine the manufacturers are asking
for an extension because they can't get the program guide info into
the PSIP scccurately when things change on the fly like a sporting
event running longer than expected. Like anybody uses that useless
'feature'.
==========================================
Anyone that gets OTA will use it!