Circular saw blade steel?
alv...@xx.com
industry use?
BTW, the carbide-tipped saw blades look to be 4140 and an industry
insider told me 0186 but they don't make the kind I most want to
know about. Also where can I find a cross reference to 0186?
I searched and couldn't find a reference to its composition.
Is 0186 about the same as 4140?
Of course that was cool learning that much but I'm not done since
it's the non-carbide-tipped saw blades that I want a designation
for.
L7 (4395) or 8696 are my guesses for the saw blades composition.
I've been spark testing them and comparing them to known samples.
The only know samples I have are 4140, 1078, 1095, 6195 and O1.
So far this what I figure I know...
They are not plain carbon steel.
They have .85 to .95% carbon.
About half of them say Cr-Ni-Mo steel on them.
All the non-carbide-tipped spark test the same...
-but different than the carbide tipped ones
-and not like any of my known samples.
I just want to know the industry's designation for the steel.
Could you please find out for me and post it here?
Any help will be appreciated. :)
Alvin in AZ
Chris North
When I was in school, we visited a plant that manufactured circular
saw blades and they used 1086 and austenitized then austempered the
blanks in molten salt baths. Maybe the austempered microstructure is
giving you different spark results.
I wouldn't think 4140, or any other alloy steel, would be needed since
the thin
section would not need any alloy to insure hardening. But, maybe they
use different processing.
Have you considered using a spectrometer to determine the chemical
composition?
chris north
alv...@XX.com wrote in message news:<b5j22n$1ng$1...@reader2.panix.com>...
alv...@xx.com
> That is, plain carbon steel with 0.86% C?
Don't know, but don't believe so either. :)
0186 is a steel industry number(?) just like, 0170-6 has
about the same composition as 6195, W7 and 50100-B.
The carbide-tipped ones sure seem to match 4140 sparks-wise.
(roll bar) but I won't be using those. 0186 steel is what they
are supposed to be, but I can't seem to find a conversion or
composition for 0186.
And then there's that pesky label on most of them claiming...
"molybdenum-nickel-chromium steel". I don't understand their
reluctance to tell me anyway. It's something that would fit
into 8685 to 8695 composition-wise is my best guess at this
point, if I were a lawyer or competition I could afford to
have it analyzed.
I don't believe it's something that AISI/SAE has even had submitted
to them for a designation, let alone looked to apply one. So, they
have just retained a non-descriptive number like the 0170-6 is for
6195/W7/50100-B.
I would like that number so I can use it too. :)
> When I was in school, we visited a plant that manufactured
> circular saw blades and they used 1086 and austenitized then
> austempered the blanks in molten salt baths. Maybe the
> austempered microstructure is giving you different spark results.
I don't know if it would or not, pearlite and martnsite seem to be
about the same when checking the 6195 and regular 1095. There is a
slight difference between to two tho that I can pick out.
With the non-carbide tipped saw blades the Mo is easy to spot and my
guess at what the Cr's effects are too. The large sawmill blades
have a reputation of being L6 (4370).
> Have you considered using a spectrometer to determine the chemical
> composition?
> chris north
I don't know what the cost on that would be, I guess I could take
a metallurgy class and use them as my project. ;) But still I'm
wondering what the industry calls it. Somehow I have the feeling
they don't call it "small non-carbide tipped, circular saw blade
steel" over and over like I do. ;)
Thanks for the follow up, I'm determined to find out what it is,
I've got feelers out all over, ASM, Crucible, Carpenter and if all
that fails it's been suggested to make a pest of myself with the
big one... Vermont American. :) They brag to be the maker of Sears'
KromEdge saw blades and the world's largest.
Alvin in AZ (for email -panix- instead of the XX)
Jim Y
Tool and Manufacturing Engineers Handbook, 3rd,
Daniel B. Dallas, ISBN 0-07-059558-5
Chapter 7, Sawing and Filing discusses blade material
and blade speeds in feet per minute and gives formulas
for feeds and speeds. But most important, it lists just
about every conceivable steel alloy for blade material.
1086 is in the list, but not 0186. (I cannot find 0186 in
any of my metals texts.) Obviously, the material to be
cut, the blade diameter and the blade RPM are important
factors in the selection of the blade material.
The above is for the sawing of metals NOT wood,
however, allowances can be made using the given formulas.
In my Marks' Standard Handbook for Mechanical Engineers,
9th Ed, Page 13-83, It states and I quote:
MATERIAL Saw blades and the sawteeth of solid-tooth
saws are generally made of a nickel tool steel.
Since you did not specify the material or blade diameter
and/or rpm, I suggest you investigate the two texts listed
for your application
In addition, Friction Sawing is another animal again.
Jim Y
<alv...@XX.com> wrote in message news:b5j22n$1ng$1...@reader2.panix.com...
alv...@xx.com
0186 is a steel number. It may only mean something to the steel
company they get their steel from for their carbide toothed blades.
But it spark tests just like 4140. :)
He called the blades I'm wanting to know about as "throw aways".
> The above is for the sawing of metals NOT wood,
Ooops I didn't count on that one. They are wood cutting blades.
I have a metal cutting circular blade too, but it's HSS, never
thought about a non-HSS metal cutting saw except for friction
sawing. Just now figuring the metal being cut doesn't have to
be steel, I guess. ;)
> In my Marks' Standard Handbook for Mechanical Engineers,
> 9th Ed, Page 13-83, It states and I quote:
> MATERIAL Saw blades and the sawteeth of solid-tooth
> saws are generally made of a nickel tool steel.
> Jim Y
I don't own either text, does it go on to be more specific?
Somehow I could see them being interested in large sawmill
sized blades and not even notice my small "throw aways".
I appreciate your interest in this subject. :)
Alvin in AZ
Jim Y
MATERIALS Saw blades and the sawtooth of solid-tooth
saws are generally made of a nickel tool steel. The bits
for inserted-tooth saws are usually a plain carbon tool
steel; however, high-speed-steel bits or bits with a cast-
alloy inlay (e.g., Stellite) are sometimes used in applications
where metal or gravel will not be encountered. Small-diameter
circular saws of virtually all designs are made with cemented
carbide tips. This design type is almost imperative in
applications where highly abrasive material is cut, namely,
in plywood and particle-board operations.
That is the most information that I have in my library.
I do have a 10 inch blade that I consider a throw away and
the cover states:
Heat treated alloy steel body HRC-48 surface ground
Tungsten Carbide tipped HRC-90 C-2
Maximum Blade Rotation: 7000 RPM
Checking my "ASM Metals Reference Book" for tool steels,
all designations begin with a letter followed by one or two
digits. For instance, the O series lists four steels:
O1, O2, O6 and O7 they are Oil-Hardening Tool Steels
There are none listed as "nickel tool steel".
Again, there is no listing of 0186.
From personal experience in the design or rolling mill
machinery, I know that knife blades (not saw blades)
manufactured for us by a knife supplier are NOT a
common material nor would they tells us the treatment
given to the blades. That is proprietary information.
This may also be the case with saw blades. Contact a
manufacturer and ask them for help. They may refuse
or they may give you your the answer. By the way, when
our client insisted on the knife material, we told him who
the supplier was. He later told us, that when he asked
for that information, the knife supplier representative
laughed at him and hung up the phone. So be wary.
Jim
<alv...@XX.com> wrote in message news:b5r60h$jp3$1...@reader2.panix.com...
alv...@xx.com
> Checking my "ASM Metals Reference Book" for tool steels,
> all designations begin with a letter followed by one or two
> digits. For instance, the O series lists four steels:
> O1, O2, O6 and O7 they are Oil-Hardening Tool Steels
Now O7 is something I've been wanting to get my hands on for
about 10 years (1/8" or thinner) along with F2 or F3.
> There are none listed as "nickel tool steel".
> Again, there is no listing of 0186.
>> 0186 is a steel number. It may only mean something to the
>> steel company they get their steel from...
>> ...it spark tests just like 4140. :) [no kidding :]
"nickel steels" would be 23xx = ~3.5% Ni and 25xx = ~5% Ni.
The only reference I saw to the "nickel steels" is in the table...
"Composition ranges and limits for alloy steels formerly listed by
SAE" And they give a year last listed, which in the this case, were
all dropped in the 50's.
2317, 2330, 2340, 2345
2512, 2515, 2517
...and then there's my presonal favorite
...6195, last listed in 1936! :)
Which the knife industry now calls 0170-6 or 50100-B
and is about the same as W7. Take your pick. ;)
As far as "nickel tool steels" some people are pretty loose with
the "tool steel" label when describing a tool's steel. I like to
blame stuff like that on the salesmen or sales department. :)
> From personal experience in the design or rolling mill
> machinery, I know that knife blades (not saw blades)
> manufactured for us by a knife supplier are NOT a
> common material nor would they tells us the treatment
> given to the blades. That is proprietary information.
> This may also be the case with saw blades. Contact a
> manufacturer and ask them for help. They may refuse
> or they may give you your the answer. By the way, when
> our client insisted on the knife material, we told him who
> the supplier was. He later told us, that when he asked
> for that information, the knife supplier representative
> laughed at him and hung up the phone. So be wary.
> Jim
Cool story. :)
Alvin in AZ
greg
customers. I hope to have some information shortly, regarding where the
steel is manufactured and from where it can be purchased. As I understand,
from a tech sheet we have on the material, the following information is
available:
Composition: Carbon - .64 / .75 %
Manganese - .40 / .60
Phosphorus - 0.025
Sulfur - 0.025
Silicon - .20 / .35
Ni - .70 / 1.00
Cr - .30 / .50
Mo - .08 / .15
Hardening temperature : 1500 - 1550 F, oil quench
Hardness: 60 / 64 HRC
Temper, 1 hour: 400 F - 60 HRC
600 F - 54 HRC
800 F - 47 HRC
1000 F - 40 HRC
1200 F - 30 HRC
Hope this inmfo helps
Regards,
Greg
<alv...@XX.com> wrote in message news:b5sv04$6g1$1...@reader2.panix.com...
alv...@xx.com
> our customers. I hope to have some information shortly, regarding
> where the steel is manufactured and from where it can be
> purchased. As I understand, from a tech sheet we have on the
> material, the following information is available:
> Composition: Carbon - .64 / .75 %
> Manganese - .40 / .60
> Phosphorus - 0.025
> Sulfur - 0.025
> Silicon - .20 / .35
> Ni - .70 / 1.00
> Cr - .30 / .50
> Mo - .08 / .15
> Hardening temperature : 1500 - 1550 F, oil quench
> Hardness: 60 / 64 HRC
> Temper, 1 hour: 400 F - 60 HRC
> 600 F - 54 HRC
> 800 F - 47 HRC
> 1000 F - 40 HRC
> 1200 F - 30 HRC
> Hope this inmfo helps
It sure as heck does. :)
What sort of table or reference or number system does the
0186 number come from? Is there one?
With that 0186 information and getting out ASM's Tool Steels and
Metals Handbook Desk Edition...
Looks like it's a less expensive copy of L6 (4370), the same until
you get to the Cr, Ni and Mo contents then L6 is about double 0186's
Cr-Ni-Mo. (not saying that L6 is better or anything like that)
Then there's ASM's type 234 (9870) which is virtually the same as
0186 except for 0186's Ni is higher at .70/1.00% and type 234's Ni
is .60/.80%
0186 could be called -4770- if AISI/SAE didn't mind. ;)
Greg does it sound like it helped? ;)
Alvin in AZ
greg
Timken Latrobe Specialty Steel Distribution, Marlborough, MA Tel. (800)
444-4447
Contact: Doug Delay
Precision Disc, Knoxville, TN Tel. (800) 542-1111
Contact: Jim Trent
0186 steel is also known as 80SS; this steel was also typed as AISI 8670
Modified. Once melted and rolled in the US, I believe that most of this is
done offshore at this time.
Regards,
Greg Dexter
<alv...@XX.com> wrote in message news:b5tir7$dq3$1...@reader2.panix.com...
alv...@xx.com
> AISI 8670 Modified. Once melted and rolled in the US, I believe
> that most of this is done offshore at this time.
>> > 0186 is a grade of saw blade steel that we heat treat for one
>> > of our customers.
Are they making circular wood cutting saw blades from the 0186
(8670M)?
If so, carbide-tipped or non-carbide-tipped saw blades or both?
Alvin in AZ
ps- thanks for the contact information