Y adaptor for 2 bulbs in celing pendant lampholder?

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Alex

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Dec 10, 2006, 4:03:55 AM12/10/06
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I am in the UK.

I have got a lampsocket hanging from the ceiling in the middle of a room
like this: http://www.toolstation.com/messages.html?closeUp=27046

A single CFL is not bright enough so I want to hang two CFL lamps from
one lampsocket.

Is it possible to get a "Y" adapter which plugs into the existing
lampsocket and then allows me to plug in two CFLs?

John

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Dec 10, 2006, 4:18:10 AM12/10/06
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"Alex" <n...@no-email.com> wrote in message
news:Xns98955C37...@127.0.0.1...

Never seen anything like that. Why not just change the fitting to a multiple
lamp holder that you like?

HTH

John


Andy Burns

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Dec 10, 2006, 4:19:07 AM12/10/06
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Alex wrote:

> Is it possible to get a "Y" adapter which plugs into the existing
> lampsocket and then allows me to plug in two CFLs?

Certainly used to be, I particularly remember lighting on market stalls
making use of them (often in scary looking ways) this was 20+ years ago
mind.

Andrew Gabriel

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Dec 10, 2006, 4:44:29 AM12/10/06
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In article <457bd10c$0$8741$ed26...@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>,

They all vanished in the early 1970's when it became illegal
to sell electrical accessories which don't conform to the
relevant British Standard. It would appear that manufacturers
didn't think it worth the effort to get all the less common
electrical accessories included in the standards. You might
still find them at car boot and junk sales, but check them
over for any faults. Most accessories of that area were quite
well made and providing they haven't been badly handled, will
still be in good condition. They may not incorporate all the
safety features currently used though.

You could always make your own:
http://www.emanator.demon.co.uk/bigclive/hamster.htm

--
Andrew Gabriel

David Hansen

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Dec 10, 2006, 5:25:01 AM12/10/06
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On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 09:03:55 GMT someone who may be Alex
<n...@no-email.com> wrote this:-

>I have got a lampsocket hanging from the ceiling in the middle of a room
>like this: http://www.toolstation.com/messages.html?closeUp=27046
>
>A single CFL is not bright enough so I want to hang two CFL lamps from
>one lampsocket.

Given that compact fluorescent lamps up to the equivalent of a GLS
bulb of over 100W are available, for example
http://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/variant_detail.asp?var=3939 this
looks like poor lighting design.

The answer is to install two or more light fittings in suitable
locations. Best would be fittings with built in control gear, for
example to take 2D lamps like
http://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/variant_detail.asp?var=2996

Adding separate switching is probably a good idea.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

meow...@care2.com

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Dec 10, 2006, 5:51:50 AM12/10/06
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Alex wrote:

Not any more, but its not hard to wire 2 pendants into 1 rose. Or to
buy a CFL, the come in powers over over 100w from a few suppliers, eg
http://www.eurobatteries.com/sitepages/fluorescentcompact.asp

NT

the_constructor

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Dec 10, 2006, 5:55:55 AM12/10/06
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"Andrew Gabriel" <and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:457bd6fd$0$626$5a6a...@news.aaisp.net.uk...

Scary !!

I remember the old double lighting adaptors from the 1950's / 60's when
people used to use them and plug electric irons into them.
--
the_constructor


d...@gglz.com

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Dec 10, 2006, 6:29:56 AM12/10/06
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> Is it possible to get a "Y" adapter which plugs into the existing
> lampsocket and then allows me to plug in two CFLs?

Yes, and here it is in all it's bakelite glory:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/EDISWAN-BIJOU-ADAPTOR-BAKELITE_W0QQitemZ190057703523QQihZ009QQcategoryZ72397QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Stuart

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Dec 10, 2006, 7:29:59 AM12/10/06
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On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 09:19:07 +0000, Andy Burns <usenet....@adslpipe.co.uk>
wrote:

Yeah .I remember them as well.. I'm sure fairgrounds used to use them as well
but they might have been for lower voltage use .


Stuart

Lobster

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Dec 10, 2006, 8:43:25 AM12/10/06
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Alex wrote:

> Is it possible to get a "Y" adapter which plugs into the existing
> lampsocket and then allows me to plug in two CFLs?

I've got one in my 'useful box' but sorry you're not having it! ;-) As
others have said, I'm pretty sure you can't buy them any more.

David

Dave Liquorice

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Dec 10, 2006, 8:45:17 AM12/10/06
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On 10 Dec 2006 03:29:56 -0800, d...@gglz.com wrote:

>> Is it possible to get a "Y" adapter which plugs into the existing
>> lampsocket and then allows me to plug in two CFLs?
>
> Yes, and here it is in all it's bakelite glory:

Yep those are the devices, not seen any on retail sale for donkeys years.
Not sure if I still have a couple kicking about and the matching BC plugs
so you could power, say your electric iron, from the lighting circuit.

I wouldn't advise using such a device though, much better to fit extra
fittings in the right place(s) or up the wattage of your CFL.

--
Cheers new...@howhill.com
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

David Hansen

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Dec 10, 2006, 9:33:22 AM12/10/06
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On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 13:45:17 +0000 (GMT) someone who may be "Dave
Liquorice" <new...@howhill.com> wrote this:-

>I wouldn't advise using such a device though,

They are amusing if one wants to horrify a "safety" person.

>much better to fit extra
>fittings in the right place(s) or up the wattage of your CFL.

Indeed.

meow...@care2.com

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Dec 10, 2006, 10:23:03 AM12/10/06
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David Hansen wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 13:45:17 +0000 (GMT) someone who may be "Dave
> Liquorice" <new...@howhill.com> wrote this:-

> >I wouldn't advise using such a device though,

> They are amusing if one wants to horrify a "safety" person.

To do that you need the full set, 2-way bulb adaptor & BC plug. Pvc
flex should not be used in the BC plug, only rubber, since the flex
sits directly on the hot bulb. The worst part of these things wasnt the
adaptor/plug/cable, which was dodgy enough, but the fact that users
would handle the top end of the fitted bulb holder, which in the later
years of round pin wiring had frequently lost some if its (single)
insulation, so you were fumbling with bare uninsulated mains wires that
you couldnt see too much from below, with the bulb in your face, while
standing on a chair or bed.

Maybe thats why iron beds declined in popularity, darwin effect....


NT

the_constructor

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Dec 10, 2006, 10:52:29 AM12/10/06
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<meow...@care2.com> wrote in message
news:1165764182.9...@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

I have just had a look in my junk box and yes, I have just found a BC
adaptor that you can plug a 2pin plug into.
Think I might put it on ebay. should raise a couple of quid as a collectors
item.
It says on it, 3A max 250V and is made by Volex. Cream in colour.
I did have a brown BC adaptor that just took a cable but can't find that
yet.
--
the_constructor


David Lee

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Dec 10, 2006, 11:18:41 AM12/10/06
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the_constructor wrote...

>
> Scary !!
>
> I remember the old double lighting adaptors from the 1950's / 60's when
> people used to use them and plug electric irons into them.

I still have a very useful Morphy-Richards 3A bayonet to two-pin shaver
socket adapter that came with my fathers old electric razor.

David


Dave Liquorice

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Dec 10, 2006, 12:05:38 PM12/10/06
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On 10 Dec 2006 07:23:03 -0800, meow...@care2.com wrote:

>>>I wouldn't advise using such a device though,
>>
>> They are amusing if one wants to horrify a "safety" person.
>
> To do that you need the full set, 2-way bulb adaptor & BC plug. Pvc
> flex should not be used in the BC plug, only rubber, since the flex
> sits directly on the hot bulb.

Twin twisted pair cotton covered rubber flex of course.

Alex

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Dec 10, 2006, 1:01:39 PM12/10/06
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On 10 Dec 2006, <meow...@care2.com> wrote:
>
> Not any more, but its not hard to wire 2 pendants into 1 rose. Or to
> buy a CFL, the come in powers over over 100w from a few suppliers, eg
> http://www.eurobatteries.com/sitepages/fluorescentcompact.asp
>
> NT
>

Jeeze. Didn't think the bayonet fitting CFL's went to such high powers.

But at Ł15 (about $29) they're not cheap. I imagine they are quite
heavy.

Alex

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Dec 10, 2006, 1:08:47 PM12/10/06
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On 10 Dec 2006, <meow...@care2.com> wrote:
>
> To do that you need the full set, 2-way bulb adaptor & BC plug. Pvc
> flex should not be used in the BC plug, only rubber, since the flex
> sits directly on the hot bulb. The worst part of these things wasnt
> the adaptor/plug/cable, which was dodgy enough, but the fact that
> users would handle the top end of the fitted bulb holder, which in
> the later years of round pin wiring had frequently lost some if its
> (single) insulation, so you were fumbling with bare uninsulated
> mains wires that you couldnt see too much from below, with the bulb
> in your face, while standing on a chair or bed.
>
> Maybe thats why iron beds declined in popularity, darwin effect....
>
>
> NT
>

I have never understood how it is still permitted to have a
lampholder like in the OP
http://www.toolstation.com/messages.html?closeUp=27046

The way the lampholder is suspended depends on the grip of the actual
screw-fittings on the bare wires.

If a moderately heavy lampshade is used then the whole thing seems to
be asking for trouble.

Does the US have ceiling pendant lampholders as dodgy as this?

There is so much safety in electrical products these days that I just
wonder how this sort of lampholder is not obliged to have a decent
flex grip in it.

David Hansen

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Dec 10, 2006, 2:09:59 PM12/10/06
to
On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 18:08:47 GMT someone who may be Alex
<n...@no-email.com> wrote this:-

>I have never understood how it is still permitted to have a

Nothing wrong with them, provided they are installed and maintained
properly.

>The way the lampholder is suspended depends on the grip of the actual
>screw-fittings on the bare wires.

And also the strain relief channels fitted to the rose and lamp
holder. Older fittings may not have these and they may be worth
replacing.

>If a moderately heavy lampshade is used then the whole thing seems to
>be asking for trouble.

One should assess the maximum mass one may safely handle. There are
tables about such things.

Owain

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Dec 10, 2006, 10:55:49 AM12/10/06
to
meow...@care2.com wrote:

> David Hansen wrote:
>>They are amusing if one wants to horrify a "safety" person.
> To do that you need the full set, 2-way bulb adaptor & BC plug.

You really need a boiling ring plugged in - one of those made from a
spiral of bare resistance wire in a ceramic former, that came with a
little rack for making toast with.

Owain

Owain

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Dec 10, 2006, 10:54:17 AM12/10/06
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meow...@care2.com wrote:
> Maybe thats why iron beds declined in popularity, darwin effect....

No, that was after a nasty incident involving an incontinent grandmere
and two English airmen with a valve radio transmitter.

Owain

Clive Mitchell

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Dec 10, 2006, 3:03:21 PM12/10/06
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In message <1165764182.9...@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
meow...@care2.com writes

> so you were fumbling with bare uninsulated mains wires that you
>couldnt see too much from below, with the bulb in your face, while
>standing on a chair or bed.

Yeah, but velvet cushions and duvets have a high resistance value.
(Unless soaked in urine.)

--
Clive Mitchell
http://www.bigclive.com

Clive Mitchell

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Dec 10, 2006, 3:03:21 PM12/10/06
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In message <Xns9895B898...@127.0.0.1>, Alex <n...@no-email.com>
writes

>I have never understood how it is still permitted to have a lampholder
>like in the OP http://www.toolstation.com/messages.html?closeUp=27046
>
>The way the lampholder is suspended depends on the grip of the actual
>screw-fittings on the bare wires.
>
It's not just relying on the wire being clamped. When assembled
correctly the wires are looped over strain relief hooks which remove a
lot of the pull force.

>If a moderately heavy lampshade is used then the whole thing seems to
>be asking for trouble.
>

Some excessive glass lampshades are just asking for trouble in any
scenario.

>Does the US have ceiling pendant lampholders as dodgy as this?

No. ALL their wiring accessories are dodgy. :)

meow...@care2.com

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Dec 10, 2006, 3:30:51 PM12/10/06
to

Perfect! With overload illusion thrown in. For safety you cant beat
liquids boiling over onto those bare elements. And boiling off before
meeting the earthed case, thus making the panful of boiling stuff live
at some random proportion of mains voltage. Metal handles anyone? Mind
you in fairness I dont think I ever boiled mine over, 500w just isnt
enough power. Might work with milk though.

(Or a bowl heater, that adds a bit of mechanical instability into the
equation.)

Apparently they still use those bare wire cooking rings in Japan, on
110v.


Seriously, I wonder just how safe a setup like this would be today if
it were run off a CU with RCD or RCBO.


NT

Chris J Dixon

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Dec 10, 2006, 3:30:11 PM12/10/06
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Owain wrote:

It was once possible to buy replacement coiled elements for
radiant fires. You simply removed the failed one, used a piece
of string to get the length and stretched the new one to suit.
My dad told me that in his college days (1930s) they heated a
room by suspending such an element from the mantelpiece.

Mind you, his mains electric soil sterilisation kit was a bit of
an eye opener - wooden box, metal plate at each end, fill with
soil, add water until ammeter reaches desired level, leave to
simmer. I can smell it now.

Chris

--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
ch...@cdixon.me.uk

Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

Clive Mitchell

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Dec 10, 2006, 3:39:01 PM12/10/06
to
In message <LNqdnXvQvMwWTebY...@bt.com>, John
<jo...@idontlikespam.co.uk> writes

>> Is it possible to get a "Y" adapter which plugs into the existing
>> lampsocket and then allows me to plug in two CFLs?
>
>Never seen anything like that. Why not just change the fitting to a
>multiple lamp holder that you like?

Look! I just made my own and you can plug kettles and washing machines
in too. I didn't know what to do with the green wire so I stuck it up
the hole and it went bang so I pulled it out again. I don't think it's
needed because everything works OK but the kettle makes me feel all
tingly when I pick it up.

http://www.emanator.demon.co.uk/sockets.jpg

--
Betty Fudgepacker.
DIY with the feminine touch.

dcbwhaley

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Dec 10, 2006, 3:40:12 PM12/10/06
to

> I have never understood how it is still permitted to have a
> lampholder like in the OP
> http://www.toolstation.com/messages.html?closeUp=27046
>
> The way the lampholder is suspended depends on the grip of the actual
> screw-fittings on the bare wires.
>
> If a moderately heavy lampshade is used then the whole thing seems to
> be asking for trouble.
>
> Does the US have ceiling pendant lampholders as dodgy as this?
>
> There is so much safety in electrical products these days that I just
> wonder how this sort of lampholder is not obliged to have a decent
> flex grip in it.

Lampholders are the only electrical accessories where access to live
terminals without using tools is considered safe. Anybody know why?

Clive Mitchell

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Dec 10, 2006, 3:52:51 PM12/10/06
to
In message <1165783212.2...@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
dcbwhaley <d...@jb.man.ac.uk> writes

>Lampholders are the only electrical accessories where access to live
>terminals without using tools is considered safe. Anybody know why?

It's just been Grandfathered through because it would have been too hard
to change every single lampholder in the world to comply. The newer
GU10 style lampholder is good though. It would be nice if they started
phasing the older BC and ES holders out.

Here in the UK we can get safety lamp holders which only connect the
power once the lamp is inserted and locked in position.

OK. Put your hand up if you ever stuck your finger in a lamp holder!
:)

(Did it on a fairground ride when I was a kid! DC apparently.)

Clive Mitchell

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Dec 10, 2006, 3:52:51 PM12/10/06
to
In message <opron2p7q89t1ul75...@4ax.com>, Chris J Dixon
<ch...@cdixon.me.uk> writes

>Mind you, his mains electric soil sterilisation kit was a bit of an eye
>opener - wooden box, metal plate at each end, fill with soil, add water
>until ammeter reaches desired level, leave to simmer. I can smell it
>now.

EYE OPENER! Not half!!!!!! They only just "rediscovered" not long
ago that passing electric current through blood would sterilise it by
killing the bacteria and viruses without causing apparent damage to the
blood. Subsequent experiments have been carried out involving in situ
sterilisation of human blood by passing low DC currents through a human
body. If claims are to be believed, it deactivated the AIDs virus
giving "low T-cell counts" whatever they are.

I wonder where he discovered the soil sterilisation technique.

Dave Liquorice

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Dec 10, 2006, 4:05:32 PM12/10/06
to
On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 15:55:49 +0000, Owain wrote:

> You really need a boiling ring plugged in - one of those made from a
> spiral of bare resistance wire in a ceramic former, that came with a
> little rack for making toast with.

Oh yeah. I took one of those and several similar electric fires to the
dump when clearing out my fathers loft. Can you still get electric fires
with exposed resistance wire wound around a ceramic former? Can't say I
seen any recently, they all seem to be "ceramic", fan, convector or oil
filled these days.

Clive Mitchell

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Dec 10, 2006, 5:20:02 PM12/10/06
to
In message <nyyfbegfubjuvyypb...@srv1.howhill.com>, Dave
Liquorice <new...@howhill.com> writes

>Oh yeah. I took one of those and several similar electric fires to the
>dump when clearing out my fathers loft. Can you still get electric
>fires with exposed resistance wire wound around a ceramic former? Can't
>say I seen any recently, they all seem to be "ceramic", fan, convector
>or oil filled these days.

Nah, you need to poke a key or screwdriver through a plastic grill to
get a decent shock these days.

Andrew Gabriel

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Dec 10, 2006, 5:21:29 PM12/10/06
to
In article <1165783212.2...@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,

"dcbwhaley" <d...@jb.man.ac.uk> writes:
>
> Lampholders are the only electrical accessories where access to live
> terminals without using tools is considered safe. Anybody know why?

B22d (bayonet cap) lampholders are grandfathered and exempt from
IP2X requirements because there are no recorded deaths from them
(at least, not due to touching the live pins).

--
Andrew Gabriel

Lobster

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Dec 10, 2006, 5:46:11 PM12/10/06
to
Clive Mitchell wrote:

> OK. Put your hand up if you ever stuck your finger in a lamp holder! :)

Yeah, been there done that, aged about 7 or 8 I suppose. And it really
makes me shudder to recall that after having got a reasonable belt from
it, my immediate reaction was to fetch my little sister and get her to
stick hers in there too. Ha ha ha. Got another belt - much worse -
when my old man found out...

David

Adrian C

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Dec 10, 2006, 6:12:37 PM12/10/06
to

Well, as kids we all do silly things. Aged 10, with absolutely no sense
at all, I puffed the garage's compressed air nozzle in the direction of
my sister's ear. Thankfully I missed ;-)

--
Adrian C

Ioannis

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Dec 10, 2006, 6:24:47 PM12/10/06
to
"Adrian C" <em...@here.invalid> wrote in message
news:4u3ij5F...@mid.individual.net...
[snip]

> Well, as kids we all do silly things. Aged 10, with absolutely no sense
> at all, I puffed the garage's compressed air nozzle in the direction of
> my sister's ear. Thankfully I missed ;-)

When I was around 14, I climbed up an AC 20kV square tower, one that has a
3-phase stepdown transformer, just to get hold of a 160W blended light lamp.

I got the lamp, but was later notified that I could have easily been killed
being so close to the high voltage transformer, which occasionally closes
airgaps using electric sparks, particularly on wet nights.

A really stupid thing to do :-(

> --
> Adrian C
--
Ioannis
-------
The best way to predict reality, is to know exactly what you DON'T want.

Guy King

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Dec 10, 2006, 6:25:35 PM12/10/06
to
The message <T60fh.14913$HV6....@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net>
from Lobster <davidlobs...@hotmail.com> contains these words:

> > OK. Put your hand up if you ever stuck your finger in a lamp holder! :)

> Yeah, been there done that, aged about 7 or 8 I suppose.

I was about five and clearly remember pretending I'd stuck my finger
with a drawing pin to explain the loud shout and sudden anguish. I can
picture the lamp fitting now, conical spun metal with a gold finish and
small star-shaped perforations round the end for ventilation, mounted on
a bendy stalk. Very late 50s early 60s.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

Lobster

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Dec 10, 2006, 6:37:19 PM12/10/06
to
Ioannis wrote:
> "Adrian C" <em...@here.invalid> wrote in message
> news:4u3ij5F...@mid.individual.net...
> [snip]
>
>> Well, as kids we all do silly things. Aged 10, with absolutely no sense
>> at all, I puffed the garage's compressed air nozzle in the direction of
>> my sister's ear. Thankfully I missed ;-)
>
> When I was around 14, I climbed up an AC 20kV square tower, one that has a
> 3-phase stepdown transformer, just to get hold of a 160W blended light lamp.
>
> I got the lamp, but was later notified that I could have easily been killed
> being so close to the high voltage transformer, which occasionally closes
> airgaps using electric sparks, particularly on wet nights.
>
> A really stupid thing to do :-(

So didn't you have a sister, then? ;-)

David

Ioannis

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Dec 10, 2006, 6:50:09 PM12/10/06
to
"Lobster" <davidlobs...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:PS0fh.4283$Dr3....@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...

No, but I had a cousin, one year younger, whom I had waiting on the pavement
to catch the lamp, me throwing it from up high.

This was actually a very serious tactical mistake: I should have instructed
him to climb the tower instead :-P

> David

Dave Liquorice

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Dec 10, 2006, 6:55:00 PM12/10/06
to
On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 22:46:11 GMT, Lobster wrote:

>> OK. Put your hand up if you ever stuck your finger in a lamp holder!
>

> Yeah, been there done that, aged about 7 or 8 I suppose.

About that age for me as well and a bayonet lamp holder. I knew that
getting a blet from the mains wasn't a good idea but that didn't stop me
accidentally sticking a finger up the holder. Blooming hurt, I guess bulb
holder shocks are less likley to be fatal as the chances are you'll pick
up the neutral on the same finger so most of the current travels in the
finger rather than through/across your chest.

Clive Mitchell

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Dec 10, 2006, 7:37:12 PM12/10/06
to
In message <457c8869$0$626$5a6a...@news.aaisp.net.uk>, Andrew Gabriel
<and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk> writes

>B22d (bayonet cap) lampholders are grandfathered and exempt from IP2X
>requirements because there are no recorded deaths from them (at least,
>not due to touching the live pins).

Lots of burnt fingertips though apparently. :)

Message has been deleted

Andrew Gabriel

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Dec 11, 2006, 3:02:39 AM12/11/06
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In article <4E934BF279%brian...@lycos.co.uk>,
<m...@privacy.net> writes:
> I remember an 'off peak' heatbank/storage heater at work about 30 years ago.
> It comprised a large tank insulated with about 30 cm of asbestos. It was
> heated by 'electrode' boilers, where the element was the water circulating
> through the tank (and central heating radiators as well, but they may have
> been on a secondary circulation). The instructions included adding salt to
> the water if the 'electrodes' didn't draw enough power (to earth, the boiler
> casing) with the electrode shields fully retracted. You added salt until the
> boiler sucked enough power from the mains to give full power with 80% of the
> electrodes exposed. A servo system (which didn't work, automagically adjusted
> the electrode shields to achieve this.
>
> The system was installed in the 1930s I wonder what current HSE peeps would
> think of it.

Such systems are still used for electric water heaters.
Look up elecrode boilers on google. They tend to need
3-phase supplies which rules them out for most of the
UK domestic market, but they are used both domestically
and commercially elsewhere.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Zak

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Dec 11, 2006, 3:46:12 AM12/11/06
to
Andrew Gabriel wrote:

> Such systems are still used for electric water heaters.
> Look up elecrode boilers on google.

A friend came back from holidays ans explained that she had showered on
some country where someone had run a nail through the shower head and
connected it to the mains to get warm water. Yuk. Even worse than these
electrode water heaters.

After I explained what could go wrong she decided that on coming travels
she would rather shower cold.


Thomas

Andy Wade

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Dec 11, 2006, 5:47:01 AM12/11/06
to
Andrew Gabriel wrote:

> Such systems are still used for electric water heaters.
> Look up elecrode boilers on google. They tend to need
> 3-phase supplies which rules them out for most of the
> UK domestic market, but they are used both domestically
> and commercially elsewhere.

There's a set of specific requirements in BS 7671 (the UK wiring
regulations) for electrode boilers - see section 554-03-xx. Single
phase ones are mentioned, but unless certain conditions are met
(including the thing not being piped to a water supply) some unusual
provisions would apply - i.e. a linked cct. breaker to interrupt both
live and neutral feed conductors and bonding of the case to both neutral
and protective earth. Since the latter of these would violate other
requirements it's not clear how you would comply, other than by using a
dedicated isolating transformer.

--
Andy

Owain

unread,
Dec 10, 2006, 6:12:46 PM12/10/06
to
Clive Mitchell wrote:
> It would be nice if they started
> phasing the older BC and ES holders out.

It would be nice if the Continentals and Americans would at least phase
their ES holders correctly, with N to ring and L to tip.

Owain

Owain

unread,
Dec 10, 2006, 6:18:49 PM12/10/06
to
meow...@care2.com wrote:
>>You really need a boiling ring plugged in - one of those made from a
>>spiral of bare resistance wire in a ceramic former, that came with a
>>little rack for making toast with.
> Perfect! With overload illusion thrown in. For safety you cant beat
> liquids boiling over onto those bare elements. And boiling off before
> meeting the earthed case,

<lady bracknell> an *earthed* case? </lb>

through a lampholder adapter?

> thus making the panful of boiling stuff live
> at some random proportion of mains voltage. Metal handles anyone?

I only ever used wooden handled pans and plastic utensils with mine.

> Seriously, I wonder just how safe a setup like this would be today if
> it were run off a CU with RCD or RCBO.

Not safe.

But don't let me stop you trying it if you really want to.

Owain

Tony Bryer

unread,
Dec 11, 2006, 9:29:30 AM12/11/06
to
On 10 Dec 2006 12:30:51 -0800 wrote :
> Apparently they still use those bare wire cooking rings in Japan, on
> 110v.

I've used bare element ceramic jug kettles in Australian motels.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

gentlegreen

unread,
Dec 11, 2006, 10:19:23 AM12/11/06
to

"Tony Bryer" <to...@delme.sda.co.uk> wrote in message
news:VA.00003f2...@delme.sda.co.uk...

> On 10 Dec 2006 12:30:51 -0800 wrote :
> > Apparently they still use those bare wire cooking rings in Japan, on
> > 110v.
>
> I've used bare element ceramic jug kettles in Australian motels.
>
A colleague used to have one at work.

I always wondered how much of the water heating is due to AC current passing
through the water ..... (though of course the element has a much lower
resistance than the water ..)


gentlegreen

unread,
Dec 11, 2006, 10:29:33 AM12/11/06
to

"Clive Mitchell" <bigc...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:78qXjgK4...@ntlworld.com...

I was fond of my "ACME" ( I kid you not ) manual toaster similar to this
one. :-

http://www.jitterbuzz.com/furn/five_toast_12.jpg

I could toast almost anything in it.

Though with UK voltage being a few volts higher than when it was made, the
element was getting shorter over time ....


meow...@care2.com

unread,
Dec 11, 2006, 12:26:03 PM12/11/06
to
Owain wrote:
> meow...@care2.com wrote:

> >>You really need a boiling ring plugged in - one of those made from a
> >>spiral of bare resistance wire in a ceramic former, that came with a
> >>little rack for making toast with.

> > Perfect! With overload illusion thrown in. For safety you cant beat
> > liquids boiling over onto those bare elements. And boiling off before
> > meeting the earthed case,

> <lady bracknell> an *earthed* case? </lb>
>
> through a lampholder adapter?

right


> > thus making the panful of boiling stuff live
> > at some random proportion of mains voltage. Metal handles anyone?

> I only ever used wooden handled pans and plastic utensils with mine.

The non-riveted type I take it.

> > Seriously, I wonder just how safe a setup like this would be today if
> > it were run off a CU with RCD or RCBO.

> Not safe.
>
> But don't let me stop you trying it if you really want to.
>
> Owain

heh. I gather Russia still uses kettles with 2 metal electrodes, no
element.

NT

fur...@mail.croydon.ac.uk

unread,
Dec 11, 2006, 1:05:06 PM12/11/06
to

m...@privacy.net wrote:

> The system was installed in the 1930s I wonder what current HSE peeps would
> think of it.

I remember my first visit to a cinema; the film was Disney's 'The Sword
in the Stone', the date was 1963, and I was six. I kept looking up
behind me, but could only see the beam coming from the port. After
the show I pestered mother to ask if I could go up to the box. After
what seemed like ages of speaking to the manager, and him 'phoning up
to the projectionist, I was somewhat amased to be led up a very narrow
iron staircase, and out onto the roof, to get there. Pre-war
projectors, Kalee, I think, carbon arcs on everything, glass bulb
mercury arc rectifiers for the projectors, motor-generators for spot
and slide lanterns. Houselight dimmers were a tank of brine, with a
solid iron cone in the bottom, and a hollow one which you winched up
and down with a big wheel. There was even a vault on the roof with a
few reels of nitrate film still in it, old newsreels and such like. I
got to strike one of the arcs, and do a changeover.

I still do the odd projection shift, I'm doing a few hours on Thursday
and a full day on Saturday this week, but sadly it's all xenon lamps
and solid state rectifiers these days.

Andrew Gabriel

unread,
Dec 11, 2006, 2:03:56 PM12/11/06
to
In article <xPefh.14832$k74....@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,

"gentlegreen" <gentlegreengiant...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>
> I was fond of my "ACME" ( I kid you not ) manual toaster similar to this
> one. :-
>
> http://www.jitterbuzz.com/furn/five_toast_12.jpg
>
> I could toast almost anything in it.

Yep, my grandparents had one of those, although I thought it was
a Morphy Richards in their case. You had to turn the bread over
half way through to toast the other side.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Mike Tomlinson

unread,
Dec 11, 2006, 2:24:48 PM12/11/06
to
In article <Xns9895B898...@127.0.0.1>, Alex <n...@no-email.com>
writes

>The way the lampholder is suspended depends on the grip of the actual
>screw-fittings on the bare wires.

It doesn't.

>There is so much safety in electrical products these days that I just
>wonder how this sort of lampholder is not obliged to have a decent
>flex grip in it.

It does.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.

TKM

unread,
Dec 11, 2006, 3:07:48 PM12/11/06
to

"Chris J Dixon" <ch...@cdixon.me.uk> wrote in message
news:opron2p7q89t1ul75...@4ax.com...
> Owain wrote:
>
>>meow...@care2.com wrote:
>>> David Hansen wrote:
>>>>They are amusing if one wants to horrify a "safety" person.
>>> To do that you need the full set, 2-way bulb adaptor & BC plug.

>>
>>You really need a boiling ring plugged in - one of those made from a
>>spiral of bare resistance wire in a ceramic former, that came with a
>>little rack for making toast with.
>>
> It was once possible to buy replacement coiled elements for
> radiant fires. You simply removed the failed one, used a piece
> of string to get the length and stretched the new one to suit.
> My dad told me that in his college days (1930s) they heated a
> room by suspending such an element from the mantelpiece.

>
> Mind you, his mains electric soil sterilisation kit was a bit of
> an eye opener - wooden box, metal plate at each end, fill with
> soil, add water until ammeter reaches desired level, leave to
> simmer. I can smell it now.
>
> Chris
>
> --
> Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
> ch...@cdixon.me.uk

Reminds me of the sausage/hot dog cooker one of the guys made in shop class
in school. Hooked one side of the mains to nails set into a circular piece
of wood. Hooked the other side of the mains to several separately-wired
loose nails. Stuck the sausage into a fixed nail and pluged the loose-wired
nail into the other end (had to be sure the sausage was of a certain length
so the nails didn't touch inside the sausage). Plugged the device in and
waited for steam, sound of cooking or an exploding sausage and then they
were done.

Terry McGowan


David Hansen

unread,
Dec 11, 2006, 3:21:12 PM12/11/06
to
On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 14:29:30 GMT someone who may be Tony Bryer
<to...@delme.sda.co.uk> wrote this:-

>> Apparently they still use those bare wire cooking rings in Japan, on
>> 110v.
>
>I've used bare element ceramic jug kettles in Australian motels.

Electric showers with bare elements are used every day in the UK.
Most people would probably be horrified if they knew that the water
makes contact with the bare element before it goes over their body.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

Clive Mitchell

unread,
Dec 11, 2006, 3:24:49 PM12/11/06
to
In message <1165857963.3...@16g2000cwy.googlegroups.com>,
meow...@care2.com writes

>heh. I gather Russia still uses kettles with 2 metal electrodes, no
>element.

It used to be an old plasterers trick to heat water by banging a nail in
either side of a bit of wood, wrapping live round one and neutral round
the other, then submersing in a bucket of water. I guess with the
presence of plaster the water would be rather conductive.

TKM

unread,
Dec 11, 2006, 3:30:35 PM12/11/06
to

"Owain" <owain...@stirlingcity.coo.uk> wrote in message
news:116584187...@despina.uk.clara.net...

It's supposed to work that way with polarized plugs and lamp cord that's
color coded now. But I don't trust it. Someone wiring the plug or
lampholder can easily reverse the leads. Biggest risk is reaching up
underneath the shade to unscrew the bulb without looking and then touching
the screw part of the bulb as it comes out of the socket.

The new GU-24 socket/plug system now being introduced for CFLs might help
though. Is that showing up in the U.K.? Time to get rid of the screw base
anyway.

Terry McGowan

TKM

unread,
Dec 11, 2006, 3:30:35 PM12/11/06
to

"Clive Mitchell" <bigc...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:KR2LojFK...@ntlworld.com...
> In message <Xns9895B898...@127.0.0.1>, Alex <n...@no-email.com>
> writes
>>I have never understood how it is still permitted to have a lampholder
>>like in the OP http://www.toolstation.com/messages.html?closeUp=27046

>>
>>The way the lampholder is suspended depends on the grip of the actual
>>screw-fittings on the bare wires.
>>
> It's not just relying on the wire being clamped. When assembled correctly
> the wires are looped over strain relief hooks which remove a lot of the
> pull force.
>
>>If a moderately heavy lampshade is used then the whole thing seems to be
>>asking for trouble.
>>
> Some excessive glass lampshades are just asking for trouble in any
> scenario.
>
>>Does the US have ceiling pendant lampholders as dodgy as this?
>
> No. ALL their wiring accessories are dodgy. :)

>
> --
> Clive Mitchell
> http://www.bigclive.com

Unfortunately, the US stuff usually has a plastic wire clamp that one can't
remove without destroying it so that shortening or lengthening the wire is
impossible. My first wiring book years ago showed something called an
"underwriters knott" that added bulk to the wire above the canopy so the
knott took the strain. The knott was easy to tie and could be put
anywhere in the wire though. I still use it for portable lamp sockets.

Terry McGowan


Ron Lowe

unread,
Dec 11, 2006, 4:00:23 PM12/11/06
to
"Owain" <owain...@stirlingcity.coo.uk> wrote in message
news:116584188...@despina.uk.clara.net...

> meow...@care2.com wrote:
>>>You really need a boiling ring plugged in - one of those made from a
>>>spiral of bare resistance wire in a ceramic former, that came with a
>>>little rack for making toast with.
>> Perfect! With overload illusion thrown in. For safety you cant beat
>> liquids boiling over onto those bare elements. And boiling off before
>> meeting the earthed case,
>
> <lady bracknell> an *earthed* case? </lb>

Now, that made me laugh.

I can hear Edith Evans delivering this in an upper class accent,
a-quiver with indignation, the tone rising in horror at the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1jL-9S-oD8

--
Ron


Victor Roberts

unread,
Dec 11, 2006, 4:46:26 PM12/11/06
to
On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 20:07:48 GMT, "TKM" <nom...@no.net>
wrote:


>Reminds me of the sausage/hot dog cooker one of the guys made in shop class
>in school. Hooked one side of the mains to nails set into a circular piece
>of wood. Hooked the other side of the mains to several separately-wired
>loose nails. Stuck the sausage into a fixed nail and pluged the loose-wired
>nail into the other end (had to be sure the sausage was of a certain length
>so the nails didn't touch inside the sausage). Plugged the device in and
>waited for steam, sound of cooking or an exploding sausage and then they
>were done.

These were commercially available at one time. The cooker
had a plastic cover with an interlock to prevent people from
touching the electrodes. I purchased a used one when I was
teaching lighting technology at the LRC in 2000. I used it
to demonstrate why the students didn't want to touch live
wires.

It makes good hot dogs.

--
Vic Roberts
http://www.RobertsResearchInc.com
To reply via e-mail:
replace xxx with vdr in the Reply to: address
or use e-mail address listed at the Web site.

This information is provided for educational purposes only.
It may not be used in any publication or posted on any Web
site without written permission.

Clive Mitchell

unread,
Dec 11, 2006, 5:08:41 PM12/11/06
to
In message <fafrn21slgc85pb4h...@4ax.com>, David Hansen
<SENDdavi...@spidacom.co.uk> writes

>Electric showers with bare elements are used every day in the UK. Most
>people would probably be horrified if they knew that the water makes
>contact with the bare element before it goes over their body.

Not so sure about these days, but I do remember seeing a shower panel
that was basically a sheet of glass or plastic with the water channel
zig zagging through it and a bare coiled element in the path of the
water. I guess as long as there's a bit of earthed copper pipe at the
output and perhaps the outlet end is wired to neutral then it should be
OK. Then again, not everyone wires things correctly!!!!!!

Clive Mitchell

unread,
Dec 11, 2006, 5:08:42 PM12/11/06
to
In message <Ldjfh.472231$QZ1.2...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
TKM <nom...@no.net> writes

>The new GU-24 socket/plug system now being introduced for CFLs might
>help though. Is that showing up in the U.K.? Time to get rid of the
>screw base anyway.

Oh yeah! Not seen that one yet. Just a larger version of the GU10. I
wonder if these types of connectors were inspired by starter contacts.

http://www.ecpzone.com/article/photos/1151090366903_lpw6_06what6.jpg

Makes sense from a safety and connection quality aspect too. I guess it
might even be cheaper to make the base and socket too. That should
please the manufacturers.

Owain

unread,
Dec 11, 2006, 4:52:47 PM12/11/06
to
TKM wrote:
> The new GU-24 socket/plug system now being introduced for CFLs might help
> though. Is that showing up in the U.K.?

In very wide use on new builds as our Building Regulations require a
certain number of luminaires that can only take energy-efficient lamps
to be fitted.

Once the inspection has signed off, the builders take them out and move
them to the next house, putting a 'proper' pendant set in its place.

> Time to get rid of the screw base
> anyway.

BC roolz, man.

Owain

Andrew Gabriel

unread,
Dec 11, 2006, 5:13:38 PM12/11/06
to
In article <Ldjfh.472231$QZ1.2...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,

"TKM" <nom...@no.net> writes:
> It's supposed to work that way with polarized plugs and lamp cord that's
> color coded now. But I don't trust it. Someone wiring the plug or
> lampholder can easily reverse the leads. Biggest risk is reaching up
> underneath the shade to unscrew the bulb without looking and then touching
> the screw part of the bulb as it comes out of the socket.
>
> The new GU-24 socket/plug system now being introduced for CFLs might help
> though. Is that showing up in the U.K.?

No. I've seen one company trying to push it, but with the prices
they are charging and the lamps being single sourced and not
available in stores (and several times the price of regular B22d
equivalents), it won't catch on. I really don't see any point in
introducing a new lampholder for integral ballasted CFL's. They
are, after all, retrofit products. If you are designing a luminare
for CFL's, it makes more sense to use separate ballasts which you
don't chuck out every time you change the lamp, and 2-pin or 4-pin
CFL's, or which there are a wide range of established types already.

> Time to get rid of the screw base anyway.

We don't use it a lot in the UK. There was a period when we were
getting a number of ES fittings coming from other European countries,
but now that most manufacture of that type is moving to China,
they're generally reverting back to B22d (which China does use too).
ES was used for older spotlamps and floodlamps, but their use has
dropped quite a lot anyway over last 10 years with more compact
sources becoming more popular.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Andrew Gabriel

unread,
Dec 11, 2006, 6:20:21 PM12/11/06