Miller DialArc 250 AC/DC - Tripping 50 Amp Breaker on Start Up
Rick Barter (rvb)
It's a pretty sweet machine, but I'm troubled by something and want to
fix it if possible.
If I turn the machine on with the amperage set to wherever I left off
welding, it trips a 50 amp breaker on start up. If I turn the dial
down to zero, it will start up fine.
The guy I bought it from said he was having this problem. He also
said he installed a toggle switch to turn the fan on and off and he
replaced the on/off switch with a 200 amp breaker.
Here is a link to the Owner's Manual:
http://www.millerwelds.com/om/o314j_mil.pdf
My questions are:
1.) Is this a reasonable thing to happen? It doesn't happen with the
big beast of a Lincoln I have, nor with my Millermatic 252.
2.) Has anyone had a similar problem and the correct solution to it?
Thanks for any help,
rvb
--
As Iron Sharpens Iron,
So One Man Sharpens Another.
Proverbs 27:17
Curt Welch
> I just bought a Miller DialArc 250 AC/DC.
>
> It's a pretty sweet machine, but I'm troubled by something and want to
> fix it if possible.
>
> If I turn the machine on with the amperage set to wherever I left off
> welding, it trips a 50 amp breaker on start up. If I turn the dial
> down to zero, it will start up fine.
>
> The guy I bought it from said he was having this problem. He also
> said he installed a toggle switch to turn the fan on and off and he
> replaced the on/off switch with a 200 amp breaker.
>
> Here is a link to the Owner's Manual:
> http://www.millerwelds.com/om/o314j_mil.pdf
>
> My questions are:
>
> 1.) Is this a reasonable thing to happen? It doesn't happen with the
> big beast of a Lincoln I have, nor with my Millermatic 252.
Something is broken I would guess. I don't see any reason for such a
machine to create a startup surge and I can't believe Miller would design a
machine that would blow a fuse unless you turned down the amp setting.
Looking at the manual, I would suggest double checking the wiring of the
jumpers that set the input voltage. Make sure the jumpers, and the wires
running to the transform didn't get switched. That would be my first guess
of what to try.
I'd also put an ammeter on it and measure all the currents in the various
transformer leads to try and figure out what was drawing the current. And
look to see what is getting hot from the extra current.
It could be there's a short in the transformer in which case there's not
much you can do.
Or maybe some of the output diodes are shorted putting a constant high load
on the machine even when you are not welding? In which case they need to
be replaced. But I thought the standard failure was for them to fail open
an not fail shorted.
That's all I can think to suggest.
> 2.) Has anyone had a similar problem and the correct solution to it?
>
> Thanks for any help,
>
> rvb
--
Curt Welch http://CurtWelch.Com/
cu...@kcwc.com http://NewsReader.Com/
R
> If I turn the machine on with the amperage set to wherever I left off
> welding, it trips a 50 amp breaker on start up. If I turn the dial
> down to zero, it will start up fine.
Maybe I am missing something here,
The manual calls for 100 to 150 amp fuse @ 230 volts depending on which
model you have.
I would think that until you size your input fuse, appropriately, it is
just plain and simple luck? that it would start up at anything other
than the lowest setting on a 50 amp fuse.
I have a similar sized machine of a different color and it sometimes
pops a 100amp 230v breaker on startup.
Rick Barter (rvb)
>Something is broken I would guess. I don't see any reason for such a
>machine to create a startup surge and I can't believe Miller would design a
>machine that would blow a fuse unless you turned down the amp setting.
>
>Looking at the manual, I would suggest double checking the wiring of the
>jumpers that set the input voltage. Make sure the jumpers, and the wires
>running to the transform didn't get switched. That would be my first guess
>of what to try.
That's what I was thinking too. I'll check it today.
>I'd also put an ammeter on it and measure all the currents in the various
>transformer leads to try and figure out what was drawing the current. And
>look to see what is getting hot from the extra current.
>
>It could be there's a short in the transformer in which case there's not
>much you can do.
>
>Or maybe some of the output diodes are shorted putting a constant high load
>on the machine even when you are not welding? In which case they need to
>be replaced. But I thought the standard failure was for them to fail open
>an not fail shorted.
Curt Welch
Ah, OK. I take back everything I said. I assumed the guy was running the
machine on a breaker of the correct size for the machine. If the machine
is designed to work on a 100 amp+ breaker then it doesn't surprise me (too
much) that it might create a surge on startup that would trip a 50 amp
breaker.
Curt Welch
>
> >Something is broken I would guess. I don't see any reason for such a
> >machine to create a startup surge and I can't believe Miller would
> >design a machine that would blow a fuse unless you turned down the amp
> >setting.
> >
> >Looking at the manual, I would suggest double checking the wiring of the
> >jumpers that set the input voltage. Make sure the jumpers, and the
> >wires running to the transform didn't get switched. That would be my
> >first guess of what to try.
>
> That's what I was thinking too. I'll check it today.
As per that other post, if you are running the machine on a 50 amp breaker
and it's designed for a 100+ amp breaker, it might just be a characteristic
of this machine that it creates a startup serge that would blow a 50 amp
breaker if you have the amp setting turned up. In my thinking, I didn't
check the manual and I assumed the breaker you were using was the correct
size for the machine.
So it might just be something you will have to live with if you want to
continue running it on a 50 amp circuit.
> >I'd also put an ammeter on it and measure all the currents in the
> >various transformer leads to try and figure out what was drawing the
> >current. And look to see what is getting hot from the extra current.
> >
> >It could be there's a short in the transformer in which case there's not
> >much you can do.
> >
> >Or maybe some of the output diodes are shorted putting a constant high
> >load on the machine even when you are not welding? In which case they
> >need to be replaced. But I thought the standard failure was for them to
> >fail open an not fail shorted.
--
Rick Barter (rvb)
I have two machines that say input power of more than 50 amps, but
they don't blow the 50 amp breaker I have. It shouldn't trip unless
I'm pulling more than 50 amps while using the machine I would think.
Curt Welch
In general, that's true and it's what I would expect. But startup could be
a different issue.
That machines uses a "magnetic amplifier" second transformer to regulate
amperage and I can't help but wonder what type of odd load it puts on the
primary transformer at start up as the magnetic fields first build up.
I don't understand the technology well enough to know if it should or
should not have such a surge, but it doesn't surprise me that it might. If
you have the non-power factor corrected model, the manual says you need a
150 amp fuse on it. If such a unit pulled 100 amps for 1/10th a second at
start up it wouldn't surprise me and that could well be enough to trip your
50 amp breaker.
And that's the other issue. If it's got a bad power factor, it can be
pulling a lot of current even though it's not using much power because of a
phase shift between the voltage and current. It's "fake power" in a sense.
But it can cause your breaker to trip. Note that the manual says you need
a 150 amp breaker for the non-power factor corrected model and only a 100
amp breaker to for the power factor corrected model. This means there's
about 50 amps of extra current not applied to the load which could be part
of what happens at start up.
I don't know enough about those machines to give you a good answer but my
hunch is about 50% that the behavior is just normal for that machine, and
50% something is wearing out and causing extra power to be drawn which
causes an extra large serge at startup.
Grant Erwin
I have a DialArc HF which is the same welder except with some extra stuff. I
run mine off a 60A breaker, works fine. I'm guessing that the 50A breaker
might be a little light.
It probably doesn't have PF capacitors. If the owner wants to keep using his
50A breaker he could add some power factor correction which would definitely
lower the surge current. The manual should show exactly where the PF caps
get wired in.
Grant
Curt Welch
Yeah, it's wired in series with an extra winding on the transformer which
only comes with the P model. So he would not only need the cap, but a
whole new transformer to wire it the way they did. Maybe copying the
design of some other unit he could find a way to do it by just adding
caps???
> Grant
Lonnie
"Curt Welch" <cu...@kcwc.com> wrote in message
news:20080907203926.297$i...@newsreader.com...
If you increase the breaker size, you will probably need a larger conductor
as well. What about switching from a breaker to a time delay fuse?
Curt Welch
Or he might look into options of a different breaker with slower trip time
curves to have the same effect but which is still a 50 amp breaker and a
simple swap with his current breaker.
Martin H. Eastburn
It will show the peak current drawn and hold it (not showing steady or zero.)
That will show what happened.
Martin
Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/
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Ignoramus19762
amps.
i
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Grant Erwin
many guys at home will actually weld with 300 amps. Most of us
won't go much over 140. At that output amperage, the welder
shouldn't draw anything like 50 amps from a 230VAC source - except
perhaps for the startup transient.
Grant
Ignoramus19762
> You are mixing up inrush current and peak load current, Igor. Not
> many guys at home will actually weld with 300 amps. Most of us
> won't go much over 140. At that output amperage, the welder
> shouldn't draw anything like 50 amps from a 230VAC source - except
> perhaps for the startup transient.
I believe that PFC reduces current at full power, but substantially
increases current at low power and idle. I was not talking about
inrush current.
i
> Grant
>
> Ignoramus19762 wrote:
>
>> If his dialarc has PFC, his current draw should be more than 50
>> amps.
>>
>> i
>>
>> On 2008-09-07, Rick Barter (rvb) <rick....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 07 Sep 2008 11:53:31 GMT, R <Nos...@noname.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Rick Barter (rvb) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>If I turn the machine on with the amperage set to wherever I left off
>>>>>welding, it trips a 50 amp breaker on start up. If I turn the dial
>>>>>down to zero, it will start up fine.
>>>>
>>>>Maybe I am missing something here,
>>>>The manual calls for 100 to 150 amp fuse @ 230 volts depending on which
>>>>model you have.
>>>>I would think that until you size your input fuse, appropriately, it is
>>>>just plain and simple luck? that it would start up at anything other
>>>>than the lowest setting on a 50 amp fuse.
>>>>I have a similar sized machine of a different color and it sometimes
>>>>pops a 100amp 230v breaker on startup.
>>>
>>>I have two machines that say input power of more than 50 amps, but
>>>they don't blow the 50 amp breaker I have. It shouldn't trip unless
>>>I'm pulling more than 50 amps while using the machine I would think.
>>>
>>
>>
--
Rick Barter (rvb)
startup.
And then I may just go to a 60 amp breaker like Grant said. I found
that 3 out of 5 times, I can turn the machine on with the dial set at
100 amps or so and it won't flip the breaker.
Thanks for the help guys. I'll keep you posted.
rvb
--
Ignoramus15569
125 amps with PFC, 150 without PFC.
Here's the manual.
http://www.millerwelds.com/om/o315u_mil.pdf
See page 10.
i
>>http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
>
>
>
--
Curt Welch
> Did you read the manual? The recommended breaker size for a Dialars is
> 125 amps with PFC, 150 without PFC.
>
> Here's the manual.
>
> http://www.millerwelds.com/om/o315u_mil.pdf
>
> See page 10.
>
> i
From his first post in this thread:
> Here is a link to the Owner's Manual:
> http://www.millerwelds.com/om/o314j_mil.pdf
Yes, I think he read the manual.... :)
Rick Barter (rvb)
different welders that say the input amperage at rated output of blah
blah blah say 50 amps, 90 amps, whatever. They all run off a 50 amp
breaker just fine.
Someone else said that it may be a characteristic or a problem with
this machine. My next step is to find out which it is. I borrowed an
amp meter from work and am heading out to the barn to figure this out.
I'll keep everyone posted.
On 08 Sep 2008 19:00:40 GMT, cu...@kcwc.com (Curt Welch) wrote:
>Ignoramus15569 <ignoram...@NOSPAM.15569.invalid> wrote:
>> Did you read the manual? The recommended breaker size for a Dialars is
>> 125 amps with PFC, 150 without PFC.
>>
>> Here's the manual.
>>
>> http://www.millerwelds.com/om/o315u_mil.pdf
>>
>> See page 10.
>>
>> i
>
>From his first post in this thread:
>
> > Here is a link to the Owner's Manual:
> > http://www.millerwelds.com/om/o314j_mil.pdf
>
>Yes, I think he read the manual.... :)
--
Ignoramus15569
> different welders that say the input amperage at rated output of blah
> blah blah say 50 amps, 90 amps, whatever. They all run off a 50 amp
> breaker just fine.
>
> Someone else said that it may be a characteristic or a problem with
> this machine. My next step is to find out which it is. I borrowed an
> amp meter from work and am heading out to the barn to figure this out.
Let's cut to the chase: Does your machine have a power factor
correction accessory (large caps) installed?
i
> I'll keep everyone posted.
>
> On 08 Sep 2008 19:00:40 GMT, cu...@kcwc.com (Curt Welch) wrote:
>
>>Ignoramus15569 <ignoram...@NOSPAM.15569.invalid> wrote:
>>> Did you read the manual? The recommended breaker size for a Dialars is
>>> 125 amps with PFC, 150 without PFC.
>>>
>>> Here's the manual.
>>>
>>> http://www.millerwelds.com/om/o315u_mil.pdf
>>>
>>> See page 10.
>>>
>>> i
>>
>>From his first post in this thread:
>>
>> > Here is a link to the Owner's Manual:
>> > http://www.millerwelds.com/om/o314j_mil.pdf
>>
>>Yes, I think he read the manual.... :)
>
>
>
--
Rick Barter (rvb)
<ignoram...@NOSPAM.15569.invalid> wrote:
>On 2008-09-08, Rick Barter (rvb) <rick....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Yup. I read it. But, I don't really accept it much. I have two
>> different welders that say the input amperage at rated output of blah
>> blah blah say 50 amps, 90 amps, whatever. They all run off a 50 amp
>> breaker just fine.
>>
>> Someone else said that it may be a characteristic or a problem with
>> this machine. My next step is to find out which it is. I borrowed an
>> amp meter from work and am heading out to the barn to figure this out.
>
>Let's cut to the chase: Does your machine have a power factor
>correction accessory (large caps) installed?
Nope.
Rick Barter (rvb)
<gr...@NOSPAMkirkland.net> wrote:
>I have a DialArc HF which is the same welder except with some extra stuff. I
>run mine off a 60A breaker, works fine. I'm guessing that the 50A breaker
>might be a little light.
>
>It probably doesn't have PF capacitors. If the owner wants to keep using his
>50A breaker he could add some power factor correction which would definitely
>lower the surge current. The manual should show exactly where the PF caps
>get wired in.
>
>Grant
Thanks, Grant. A 60-amp breaker worked like a charm!
I can now power up the welder at any amperage setting with or without
the fan on and it's great.
Now I just have to hook up the leads and we're off like a sweaty bra!
Thanks, man.
rvb
Grant Erwin
> On Sun, 07 Sep 2008 21:53:36 GMT, Grant Erwin
> <gr...@NOSPAMkirkland.net> wrote:
>
>
>>I have a DialArc HF which is the same welder except with some extra stuff. I
>>run mine off a 60A breaker, works fine. I'm guessing that the 50A breaker
>>might be a little light.
>>
>>It probably doesn't have PF capacitors. If the owner wants to keep using his
>>50A breaker he could add some power factor correction which would definitely
>>lower the surge current. The manual should show exactly where the PF caps
>>get wired in.
>>
>>Grant
>
>
> Thanks, Grant. A 60-amp breaker worked like a charm!
>
> I can now power up the welder at any amperage setting with or without
> the fan on and it's great.
>
> Now I just have to hook up the leads and we're off like a sweaty bra!
Do I understand you that a DialArc 250 has a separate switch for the FAN?
Amazing!
I bought two Tweco angled female No. 2 terminals for my DialArc HF, for when
I want to use it as a stick welder. However, they don't work on the HF because
it has a bar across the bottom for latching the door. If you want them for
your DialArc 250, see: http://www.tinyisland.com/images/temp/twecoTerminals.pdf
Grant
Rick Barter (rvb)
Thanks for the link. I'll check them out. How hard would it be to
add PFC and HiFrequency ?
Rick Barter (rvb)
front. So I don't need those.
On Sep 11, 11:51 pm, Grant Erwin <gr...@NOSPAMkirkland.net> wrote:
Grant Erwin
> Yup. I think the previous owner added it.
>
> Thanks for the link. I'll check them out. How hard would it be to
> add PFC and HiFrequency ?
To add power factor correction caps the way Miller did would be hard
because they apparently used a transformer with a separate winding
for the power factor caps. However, you could just add some oil-filled
run capacitors rated for 240VAC between L1 and L2, measuring inrush
current with no load, until you got that current to a minimum.
Adding high frequency would basically involve buying a separate HF
unit. It would be easier to just get used to scratch-starting your
electrodes. Unless you are thinking of using this for TIG welding,
in which case you also have to think about a gas solenoid with postflow
timer and pedal connections, none of which are there on your welder.
Grant
Rick Barter (rvb)
> Rick Barter (rvb) wrote:
> > Yup. I think the previous owner added it.
>
> > Thanks for the link. I'll check them out. How hard would it be to
> > add PFC and HiFrequency ?
>
> To add power factor correction caps the way Miller did would be hard
> because they apparently used a transformer with a separate winding
> for the power factor caps. However, you could just add some oil-filled
> run capacitors rated for 240VAC between L1 and L2, measuring inrush
> current with no load, until you got that current to a minimum.
>
> Adding high frequency would basically involve buying a separate HF
> unit. It would be easier to just get used to scratch-starting your
> electrodes. Unless you are thinking of using this for TIG welding,
> in which case you also have to think about a gas solenoid with postflow
> timer and pedal connections, none of which are there on your welder.
>
> Grant
Ahhh I guess I misunderstood. I always scratch-start my stick
electrodes. I thought the HF was just for the TIG function so as not
to have to scratch start the tungsten. I haven't gotten into TIG too
much. Mostly stick and MIG.
Grant Erwin
> Adding high frequency would basically involve buying a separate HF
> unit. It would be easier to just get used to scratch-starting your
> electrodes. Unless you are thinking of using this for TIG welding,
> in which case you also have to think about a gas solenoid with postflow
> timer and pedal connections, none of which are there on your welder.
Or use a torch which has a gas valve on it and skip the pedal ..
Grant
Gunner Asch
>>
>> 1.) Is this a reasonable thing to happen? It doesn't happen with the
>> big beast of a Lincoln I have, nor with my Millermatic 252.
>
>Something is broken I would guess. I don't see any reason for such a
>machine to create a startup surge and I can't believe Miller would design a
>machine that would blow a fuse unless you turned down the amp setting.
>
>Looking at the manual, I would suggest double checking the wiring of the
>jumpers that set the input voltage. Make sure the jumpers, and the wires
>running to the transform didn't get switched. That would be my first guess
>of what to try.
>
>I'd also put an ammeter on it and measure all the currents in the various
>transformer leads to try and figure out what was drawing the current. And
>look to see what is getting hot from the extra current.
>
>It could be there's a short in the transformer in which case there's not
>much you can do.
>
>Or maybe some of the output diodes are shorted putting a constant high load
>on the machine even when you are not welding? In which case they need to
>be replaced. But I thought the standard failure was for them to fail open
>an not fail shorted.
>
>That's all I can think to suggest.
check for a shorted capacitor on the AC side of the input.
Power factor capacitor
Disconnet them (usually 2 of them) and try it again.
Gunner
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism, but under the
name of liberalism they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program
until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it
happened." -- Norman Thomas, American socialist
Gunner Asch
>>
>> That's what I was thinking too. I'll check it today.
>
>As per that other post, if you are running the machine on a 50 amp breaker
>and it's designed for a 100+ amp breaker, it might just be a characteristic
>of this machine that it creates a startup serge that would blow a 50 amp
>breaker if you have the amp setting turned up. In my thinking, I didn't
>check the manual and I assumed the breaker you were using was the correct
>size for the machine.
>
>So it might just be something you will have to live with if you want to
>continue running it on a 50 amp circuit.
My identical welder doesnt trip a 35 amp breaker on turn on.
Might want to disconnect the fan and try it as well., as an
afterthought.
Gunner Asch
>"Lonnie" <@_#~#@.^net> wrote:
>> "Curt Welch" <cu...@kcwc.com> wrote in message
>> news:20080907203926.297$i...@newsreader.com...
>>
>> If you increase the breaker size, you will probably need a larger
>> conductor as well. What about switching from a breaker to a time delay
>> fuse?
>
>Or he might look into options of a different breaker with slower trip time
>curves to have the same effect but which is still a 50 amp breaker and a
>simple swap with his current breaker.
"motor rated breaker"
Gunner Asch
<gr...@NOSPAMkirkland.net> wrote:
You didnt cut the bar off with your sawzall?
Gunner Asch
<ignoram...@NOSPAM.15569.invalid> wrote:
>Did you read the manual? The recommended breaker size for a Dialars is
>125 amps with PFC, 150 without PFC.
>
>Here's the manual.
>
> http://www.millerwelds.com/om/o315u_mil.pdf
>
>See page 10.
Yes..and with that sized breaker, it will allow you to go up to the
full 300 rated amps.
since most of you guys will not be welding with 1/4" rod.....
I do however...
Rick Barter (rvb)
I'll see if I can figure out where they're at from the wiring
diagram. Any special precautions about dealing with the capacitors?
They hold a charge don't they?
Rick Barter
Rick Barter
Gunner Asch
wrote:
"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.
This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost
Gunner Asch
Gunner Asch
normally..and if the breaker is old..it may be tripping below the 50
amps.
Replace with a 60 amp.
Also, remove the cover of the welder and check for any of the big copper
straps running hither and yon in the machine touching any of the frame.
Ive seen that on two machines so far..both Dialarcs.
Facing the machine, check the left hand side for burned straps. Both
were there
Gunner
Rick Barter (rvb)
<gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote:
>How old is the 50 amp breaker? The Dialarc has a huge startup surge
>normally..and if the breaker is old..it may be tripping below the 50
>amps.
>
>Replace with a 60 amp.
>
>Also, remove the cover of the welder and check for any of the big copper
>straps running hither and yon in the machine touching any of the frame.
>Ive seen that on two machines so far..both Dialarcs.
>
>Facing the machine, check the left hand side for burned straps. Both
>were there
>
>Gunner
I took it to the Miller fix-it place and they told me I was duped.
That it was missing half the parts it was supposed to have and they
weren't going to even touch it.
They said I'd be better off buying another one with the price it would
cost to fix it. So, I guess it's to someone who needs one really bad
or to the scrap heap with it.
:(
Rick Barter (rvb)
Oh and I forgot to mention that I did replace it with a 60-amp it was
still blowing the breaker albeit rarely. One other thing the guy
mentioned is that it had some new fangled poteniometer. The original
one was a clay model. For what it's worth.
Maybe it's time to just go buy a stinking thunderbolt or one of those
Maxstar 150s models.
Ignoramus8841
> I took it to the Miller fix-it place and they told me I was duped.
> That it was missing half the parts it was supposed to have and they
> weren't going to even touch it.
>
> They said I'd be better off buying another one with the price it would
> cost to fix it. So, I guess it's to someone who needs one really bad
> or to the scrap heap with it.
>
What exactly is missing? How did you buy it?
Do not scrap it, part it out, it will be an educational experience.
Martin H. Eastburn
machine out of it. Kinda sucks when the bucks were paid...
Martin
Gunner Asch
Get your money back from the seller.
Rick Barter (rvb)
<ignora...@NOSPAM.8841.invalid> wrote:
>On 2009-01-11, Rick Barter (rvb) <rick....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I took it to the Miller fix-it place and they told me I was duped.
>> That it was missing half the parts it was supposed to have and they
>> weren't going to even touch it.
>>
>> They said I'd be better off buying another one with the price it would
>> cost to fix it. So, I guess it's to someone who needs one really bad
>> or to the scrap heap with it.
>>
>
>What exactly is missing? How did you buy it?
>
>Do not scrap it, part it out, it will be an educational experience.
I do not know exactly what is missing. The welder works, it just
really burns hot (possibly due to the potentiometer being wrong) and
it blows breakers if the fan power switch (installed by the previous
owner?) is not turned off and the amperage switch not turned all the
way down.
Are you saying I shouldn't scrap it or part it out? I would love to
learn how to fix it, but am not sure where to start. I'm not exactly
well-versed in electrical theory. But, I would love to be able to
service it and be able to use the machine.
I bought it from a guy on CraigsList.
Any help is definitely appreciated!!!
Ignoramus12379
> On Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:07:01 -0600, Ignoramus8841
><ignora...@NOSPAM.8841.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On 2009-01-11, Rick Barter (rvb) <rick....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I took it to the Miller fix-it place and they told me I was duped.
>>> That it was missing half the parts it was supposed to have and they
>>> weren't going to even touch it.
>>>
>>> They said I'd be better off buying another one with the price it would
>>> cost to fix it. So, I guess it's to someone who needs one really bad
>>> or to the scrap heap with it.
>>>
>>
>>What exactly is missing? How did you buy it?
>>
>>Do not scrap it, part it out, it will be an educational experience.
>
> I do not know exactly what is missing. The welder works, it just
> really burns hot (possibly due to the potentiometer being wrong) and
> it blows breakers if the fan power switch (installed by the previous
> owner?) is not turned off and the amperage switch not turned all the
> way down.
sounds like a victim of a botched repair to me.
> Are you saying I shouldn't scrap it or part it out? I would love to
> learn how to fix it, but am not sure where to start. I'm not exactly
> well-versed in electrical theory. But, I would love to be able to
> service it and be able to use the machine.
>
> I bought it from a guy on CraigsList.
As Gunner said, call the guy and say that the welder is not as
represented and that you want your money back.
You may get the money back.
> Any help is definitely appreciated!!!
Assuming that you do not get the money back, you can get a schematic
from Miller and try to fix it. It will be an educational experience
even if you did not succeed.
There is a few people here who screwed around with broken welders, who
could provide some assistance.
This is an application of troubleshooting techniques whose point is to
isolate problems and find defective or incorrectly installed
components.
Ergo, you can test the potentiometer by referring to Miller schematic
and measuring resistances, without the welder being on.
So, see if you can get your money back (how much did it cost?) and
barring that, you can have a fun couple of weeks.
Gunner Asch
Its not that hard a welder to fix..its pretty simple inside.
Parts on the other hand...can be pricey.
>There is a few people here who screwed around with broken welders, who
>could provide some assistance.
>
>This is an application of troubleshooting techniques whose point is to
>isolate problems and find defective or incorrectly installed
>components.
>
>Ergo, you can test the potentiometer by referring to Miller schematic
>and measuring resistances, without the welder being on.
>
>So, see if you can get your money back (how much did it cost?) and
>barring that, you can have a fun couple of weeks.
Ignoramus12379
Rick can look at page 27,28 of http://millerwelds.com/om/o121f_mil.pdf
This is not a very complicated welder. You can test its individual
components. Like proletariat, you have nothing to lose besides this
already broken welder.
i
>
>>There is a few people here who screwed around with broken welders, who
>>could provide some assistance.
>>
>>This is an application of troubleshooting techniques whose point is to
>>isolate problems and find defective or incorrectly installed
>>components.
>>
>>Ergo, you can test the potentiometer by referring to Miller schematic
>>and measuring resistances, without the welder being on.
>>
>>So, see if you can get your money back (how much did it cost?) and
>>barring that, you can have a fun couple of weeks.
>
>
> "First Law of Leftist Debate
> The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
> that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
> more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
> losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
> homophobe approaches infinity.
>
> This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
> race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
> the subject." Grey Ghost
--
Rick Barter (rvb)
<ignoram...@NOSPAM.12379.invalid> wrote:
>As Gunner said, call the guy and say that the welder is not as
>represented and that you want your money back.
>
>You may get the money back.
If I could remember the guy's name, number, or email I would try to
get the money back.
>> Any help is definitely appreciated!!!
>
>Assuming that you do not get the money back, you can get a schematic
>from Miller and try to fix it. It will be an educational experience
>even if you did not succeed.
>
>There is a few people here who screwed around with broken welders, who
>could provide some assistance.
>
>This is an application of troubleshooting techniques whose point is to
>isolate problems and find defective or incorrectly installed
>components.
>
>Ergo, you can test the potentiometer by referring to Miller schematic
>and measuring resistances, without the welder being on.
Is there a more detailed one than comes inside the cover of the
machine? I don't know much about electrical theory.
>So, see if you can get your money back (how much did it cost?) and
>barring that, you can have a fun couple of weeks.
--
Ignoramus12379
> On Mon, 12 Jan 2009 09:33:49 -0600, Ignoramus12379
><ignoram...@NOSPAM.12379.invalid> wrote:
>
>>As Gunner said, call the guy and say that the welder is not as
>>represented and that you want your money back.
>>
>>You may get the money back.
>
> If I could remember the guy's name, number, or email I would try to
> get the money back.
>
>
>>> Any help is definitely appreciated!!!
>>
>>Assuming that you do not get the money back, you can get a schematic
>>from Miller and try to fix it. It will be an educational experience
>>even if you did not succeed.
>>
>>There is a few people here who screwed around with broken welders, who
>>could provide some assistance.
>>
>>This is an application of troubleshooting techniques whose point is to
>>isolate problems and find defective or incorrectly installed
>>components.
>>
>>Ergo, you can test the potentiometer by referring to Miller schematic
>>and measuring resistances, without the welder being on.
>
> Is there a more detailed one than comes inside the cover of the
> machine? I don't know much about electrical theory.
see my another post with a link to the dialarc manual.
How much do you know about electricity, exactly?
Do you know what is current, voltage and power?
If you know nothing at all, then I would say the above advice does not
apply and you should scrap it or sell as broken. But maybe you
remember something from high school in the back of your mind.
i
>>So, see if you can get your money back (how much did it cost?) and
>>barring that, you can have a fun couple of weeks.
>
>
--
Ernie Leimkuhler
small machines is the Miller Maxstar 200STR.
For $1650, it really can't be beat.
If you need really small the Maxstar 150s are good, but limited to
3/32" electrodes for 110 volt input.
On 220 volt input you can just run 1/8" rods.
We had one for 1 week at school before we traded up to the 200 STR.
In article <7qnkm49ppta6f5tud...@4ax.com>, rvb
Rick Barter (rvb)
12379.invalid> wrote:
I don't know crap about electricity. However, my brother-in-law knows
some and a guy at work knows it. So, I'm going to ask for some help
and see if I can't get it running good. But, I'll price out the parts
starting with the rheostat.
Rick Barter (rvb)
> If you want an excellent small Stick machine, my current favorite for
> small machines is the Miller Maxstar 200STR.
> For $1650, it really can't be beat.
>
> If you need really small the Maxstar 150s are good, but limited to
> 3/32" electrodes for 110 volt input.
> On 220 volt input you can just run 1/8" rods.
> We had one for 1 week at school before we traded up to the 200 STR.
>
>
> <rick.bar...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey, Ernie. Does that Maxstar have lift-start only? I haven't done
much TIG at all and thought you needed HF for use with a foot pedal or
your had to scratch start like with Stick. Not true?
Curt Welch
> > If you want an excellent small Stick machine, my current favorite for
> > small machines is the Miller Maxstar 200STR.
> > For $1650, it really can't be beat.
> >
> > If you need really small the Maxstar 150s are good, but limited to
> > 3/32" electrodes for 110 volt input.
> > On 220 volt input you can just run 1/8" rods.
> > We had one for 1 week at school before we traded up to the 200 STR.
> >
> > In article <7qnkm49ppta6f5tud52oveg4hee9937...@4ax.com>, rvb
> >
> > <rick.bar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Sun, 11 Jan 2009 14:54:51 -0500, "Rick Barter (rvb)"
> > > <rick.bar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > >On Sat, 10 Jan 2009 20:58:03 -0800, Gunner Asch
> > > ><gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote:
> >
> > > >>surg=
> e
> > > >>normally..and if the breaker is old..it may be tripping below the
> > > >>50 amps.
> >
> > > >>Replace with a 60 amp.
> >
> > > >>Also, remove the cover of the welder and check for any of the big
> per
> > > >>straps running hither and yon in the machine touching any of the
> e.
> > > >>Ive seen that on two machines so far..both Dialarcs.
> >
> > > >>Facing the machine, check the left hand side for burned straps.
> > > >>Both were there
> >
> > > >>Gunner
> >
> > > >I took it to the Miller fix-it place and they told me I was duped.
> > > >That it was missing half the parts it was supposed to have and they
> > > >weren't going to even touch it.
> >
> > > >They said I'd be better off buying another one with the price it
> > > >really ba=
> d
> > > >or to the scrap heap with it.
> >
> > > >:(
> >
> > > Oh and I forgot to mention that I did replace it with a 60-amp it was
> > > mentioned is that it had some new fangled poteniometer. =A0The
> > > original one was a clay model. =A0For what it's worth.
> >
> > > Maybe it's time to just go buy a stinking thunderbolt or one of those
> > > Maxstar 150s models.
> >
> > > --
> > > As Iron Sharpens Iron,
> > > So One Man Sharpens Another.
> > > Proverbs 27:17
>
> Hey, Ernie. Does that Maxstar have lift-start only? I haven't done
> much TIG at all and thought you needed HF for use with a foot pedal or
> your had to scratch start like with Stick. Not true?
It's fairly easy to find the specs on the miller site:
http://www.millerwelds.com/pdf/spec_sheets/DC29-5.pdf
The 200 STR that Ernie mentioned above seems to be mostly a Stick machine
though it does TIG as well but only lift-start and no HF. You can use a
foot pedal with lift start.
Lift start is not the same thing as scratch start in case you didn't
understand that. Scratch start is what you do with stick. The current is
always on and you have to touch the weld metal with the electrode to start
the arc but do it a way to keep it from sticking. You can scratch start TIG
but it's tricky because you risk contaminating the weld by melting some of
the tungsten into the weld if it sticks.
Lift start is a special electronic control feature built into some machines
that keeps the current off (mostly) when not welding. You touch the
tungsten to the weld for a second, (no worry about it sticking because the
high current is not on - only a very low voltage low current sense current
is active). You then lift the tungsten off the metal and that signals the
machine to turn on the high current (aka start _after_ lifting) - so the
arc starts instantly _after_ you lift the tungsten off the metal preventing
(or at least reducing) any problem with it sticking. So you don't scratch
it, you simply touch it, and then lift it to start the arc. Lift start is
not bad and easy to get used to. And it has the advantage of not creating
any HF interference with near by electronic equipment.
There are other machines in the Maxstar line like the Maxstar 200 SD that
does HF as well as lift start if you want that (but they cost more):
http://www.millerwelds.com/pdf/spec_sheets/DC32-0.pdf
All the Maxstar machines are DC only (no AC Tig). If you want DC and AC in
an Miller inverter machine for Stick and Tig, you have to move up to the
Dynasty line:
http://www.millerwelds.com/pdf/spec_sheets/AD4-8.pdf
Which costs another $800 or so more than the Maxstar machines.
Or down to their bare-bones TIG only DC/AC inverter the new Diversion 165:
http://www.millerwelds.com/pdf/spec_sheets/AD1-5.pdf
--
Curt Welch http://CurtWelch.Com/
cu...@kcwc.com http://NewsReader.Com/
Rick Barter (rvb)
Thanks for the info, Curt. I should have dug a little deeper for the
specs. But, I appreciate your very good description of touch-start.
I thought it meant the same as scratch start like I've seen with stick
machines set up to do TIG.
Thanks again,
rvb
Rick Barter
<rick....@gmail.com> wrote:
>I just bought a Miller DialArc 250 AC/DC.
>
>It's a pretty sweet machine, but I'm troubled by something and want to
>fix it if possible.
>
>If I turn the machine on with the amperage set to wherever I left off
>welding, it trips a 50 amp breaker on start up. If I turn the dial
>down to zero, it will start up fine.
>
>The guy I bought it from said he was having this problem. He also
>said he installed a toggle switch to turn the fan on and off and he
>replaced the on/off switch with a 200 amp breaker.
>
>Here is a link to the Owner's Manual:
>http://www.millerwelds.com/om/o314j_mil.pdf
>
>
>My questions are:
>
>1.) Is this a reasonable thing to happen? It doesn't happen with the
>big beast of a Lincoln I have, nor with my Millermatic 252.
>
>2.) Has anyone had a similar problem and the correct solution to it?
>
>
>Thanks for any help,
>
>rvb
Well, after the many encouraging emails and a look at the schematic
for the machine, I've ordered the proper rheostat and on|off switch
for the machine and will set to fixing it (hopefully) when the parts
come in.
I'll keep everyone posted...
Ignoramus4495
> Well, after the many encouraging emails and a look at the schematic
> for the machine, I've ordered the proper rheostat and on|off switch
> for the machine and will set to fixing it (hopefully) when the parts
> come in.
>
> I'll keep everyone posted...
Can you explain what exactly made you believe that you need to replace
rheostat and on/off switch? I am not saying that your decision is
wrong, but I would like to know what made you decide to do so.
Rick Barter (rvb)
<ignora...@NOSPAM.4495.invalid> wrote:
>On 2009-01-16, Rick Barter <rick....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Well, after the many encouraging emails and a look at the schematic
>> for the machine, I've ordered the proper rheostat and on|off switch
>> for the machine and will set to fixing it (hopefully) when the parts
>> come in.
>>
>> I'll keep everyone posted...
>
>Can you explain what exactly made you believe that you need to replace
>rheostat and on/off switch? I am not saying that your decision is
>wrong, but I would like to know what made you decide to do so.
The on/off switch was just to match what should have been in the
machine. A 60-amp switch was called for, but there was a 200-amp
breaker switch in its place.
The repair man also said that the rheostat that was in there was the
wrong one. After discussing the symptoms of the machine and the
schematic with a guy at work who knows about electrical, we decided to
replace the rheostat with the right one.
The original one was ceramic. The guy at work and I talked and he
said there are different kinds of rheostats and that if someone just
picked one and installed it, it could be causing the behaviour I was
seeing. So, while it is taking a stab at it, it is at least and
educated guess.
The other reason was that, like you and Gunner have said, it's a
fairly simple machine and the things that could go wrong are minimal.
And at a grand total of about $175, it is worth a shot. I paid $300
for the darn thing and I'd like it to work right.
Don't get me wrong, I've been using it successfully, it's just not
"right" if you know what I mean. And I'm too anal to just let
something like that continue. I can't leave things broken.
Ignoramus26157
> something like that continue. I can't leave things broken.
Could be.
Sounds like a fun project. Was the machine bumped at some point, so
that original rheostat and switch were physically broken? Any idea
what started this trouble?
i
Rick Barter (rvb)
I have no idea. It came like that. I bought it off of CraigsList.
Ignoramus16024
Messing with this may be very time consuming, but very
educational. Keep us posted. I am personally very interested.
Rick Barter (rvb)
<ignoram...@NOSPAM.16024.invalid> wrote:
>Messing with this may be very time consuming, but very
>educational. Keep us posted. I am personally very interested.
Will do. Hopefully the parts will be in soon.
Glenn
for a footswitch/remote rehostat to it and pretty much went over the whole
setup.
One thing that comes to mind is the powerfactor caps if yours happens to
have them they could be toast and popping a 50 amp breaker. Not all of em
came with the PF caps.
If you need any info holler but send me an e-mail as I haven't had much time
to check the list lately.
Glenn Neff
Medford, OR
"Rick Barter (rvb)" <rick....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:s69an4tg4gqpgd9ta...@4ax.com...
Dave C / DxC
valuable! thanks! I just told the electrician to put in a 60A fuse ...
he kept saying that welders dont take more than 30A ... i told him
this was an older machine .... still he did not believe me so i took
to the internetz for verification. i cant believe the manual
recommends a 125A fuse....
what size wire are you running for your welder? 6/2? 6/3?
- Dave
Gunner Asch
My Dialarc 250 is comfortable with a 60 amp breaker, winter or summer.
Gunner
"Upon Roosevelt's death in 1945, H. L. Mencken predicted in his diary
that Roosevelt would be remembered as a great president, "maybe even
alongside Washington and Lincoln," opining that Roosevelt "had every
quality that morons esteem in their heroes.""
