Re: Tacking aluminum with AC stick?

[Gunner Asch]

On Thu, 17 Nov 2011 09:03:16 -0500, William Bagwell
<use-...@s.this.one.invalid> wrote:

>Tacking aluminum with an AC buzz box? Does not have to be pretty or very
>strong. Just strong enough to hold as I cut, trial fit and add various pieces
>of ~5/16" cast aluminum. Final welding will be done later at another location
>on a TIG machine.
>
>All the aluminum stick rods I have found say DC only. Hoping someone here has
>faced this problem before and can suggest a brand or type of rod that will
>'kind'a sort of' work with AC. Or some other low cost ideas? My welder is a
>Lincoln 225 if that makes a difference.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071017194133AAHE0np

You may find this link of interest....

http://hildstrom.com/projects/stickaluminum/

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

[John B.]

On Thu, 17 Nov 2011 09:03:16 -0500, William Bagwell
<use-...@s.this.one.invalid> wrote:

>Tacking aluminum with an AC buzz box? Does not have to be pretty or very
>strong. Just strong enough to hold as I cut, trial fit and add various pieces
>of ~5/16" cast aluminum. Final welding will be done later at another location
>on a TIG machine.
>
>All the aluminum stick rods I have found say DC only. Hoping someone here has
>faced this problem before and can suggest a brand or type of rod that will
>'kind'a sort of' work with AC. Or some other low cost ideas? My welder is a
>Lincoln 225 if that makes a difference.

My experience is that a buzz-box won't work although DC welding is
quite acceptable.

As an aside welding 5/16" aluminum is going to require some fairly
serious heat if TEG welding and quite a bit of warping will likely be
encountered.


--
John B.

[John B.]

On Thu, 17 Nov 2011 19:22:13 -0500, William Bagwell
<use-...@s.this.one.invalid> wrote:

>On Thu, 17 Nov 2011 13:42:15 -0800, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071017194133AAHE0np
>>
>>You may find this link of interest....
>>
>>http://hildstrom.com/projects/stickaluminum/
>

>Yes, the first one gives me a bit of hope then the second one takes most of it
>away. He references some very recent threads on the weldingweb forum, so
>perhaps his research is still on going? I too, thought of the old carbon arc
>torch method. Had no luck finding examples of it being used with aluminum.
>
>But thanks for the links! I never would have clicked on the Yahoo answers
>one... No idea why I did not find the other one, it should have been on the
>first page or two of one of my searches.


Try
http://www.welding-technology-machines.info/welding-of-aluminium-and-its-alloys/welding-of-aluminium-castings.htm

For some pretty comprehensive information about welding aluminum.

There is also some sort of "aluminum solder" that was discussed on
rec.crafts.metalworking some time ago. If you are just sticking stuff
together to try that might work. I believe it is low temperature
operation.


--
John B.

[John B.]

On Thu, 17 Nov 2011 20:15:12 -0500, William Bagwell
<use-...@s.this.one.invalid> wrote:

>On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 07:01:45 +0700, John B. <johnbs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>My experience is that a buzz-box won't work although DC welding is
>>quite acceptable.
>

>Hope someone here can prove you wrong on the first part:) My one and only
>experience with DC aluminum stick was due to a broke TIG. Had an emergency
>repair to something and yes it was quite acceptable. Thank goodness looks was
>not one of the criteria of acceptability that day!

>
>>As an aside welding 5/16" aluminum is going to require some fairly
>>serious heat if TEG welding and quite a bit of warping will likely be
>>encountered.
>

>My experience with cast is that it warps quite a bit less than plate. Has
>plenty of other problems that plate lacks... And yes, I have heard the fan kick
>in high on a Miller Dynasty plenty of times while welding aluminum.


I just came across "aluminum solder" see http://durafix.com/


--
John B.

[Glenn Lyford]

> There is also some sort of "aluminum solder" that was discussed on
> rec.crafts.metalworking some time ago. If you are just sticking stuff
> together to try that might work. I believe it is low temperature
> operation.

Dura-fix, Luma-Weld, and a bunch of others are pretty close to
straight zinc (check the MSDS). You do have to remember to scrub
through the oxide layer once you've got a puddle of molten filler on
your base metal, or it won't stick, it's pretty much not like any
other process. For small parts, you can get it hot enough with a
propane or mapp torch. I've not used it in decades, and even then not
for anything structural or critical, mostly just played with it a
little. Once upon a time, you could only get them from flim-flam
dealers at fairs and such, now you can walk into any home store and
find them in the "bernz-o-matic" section. It does oxidise to a darker
color than straight aluminum, so repairs are noticable.

I think my biggest concern would be if all that zinc would mess up
your later TIG weld? You might get lucky and it could just alloy in
as everything gets reheated, but I don't know.

Is the intended use one where you can't use a couple of drilled and
tapped holes and a handful of screws to hold stuff together? A hand
drill and a tap wrench are pretty simple as long as you stay away from
some of the fragile tap sizes like 6-24. It might be less annoying
and time consuming than a torch and filler.

If we're already talking about moving away from the stick machine, how
about using a spool gun? I know they're not cheap, but a lot of
people like the "ReadyWelder" stuff, and you can run them on batteries
to get the DC, you don't need another DC source (though it can use
one). The manual implies you still need DC for aluminum, though, so I
guess still no hooking it straight to your tombstone buzzbox.

--Glenn Lyford

[Glen Walpert]

On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:04:33 +0700, John B. wrote:

> On Thu, 17 Nov 2011 19:22:13 -0500, William Bagwell
> <use-...@s.this.one.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 17 Nov 2011 13:42:15 -0800, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071017194133AAHE0np
>>>
>>>You may find this link of interest....
>>>
>>>http://hildstrom.com/projects/stickaluminum/
>>
>>Yes, the first one gives me a bit of hope then the second one takes most
>>of it away. He references some very recent threads on the weldingweb
>>forum, so perhaps his research is still on going? I too, thought of the
>>old carbon arc torch method. Had no luck finding examples of it being
>>used with aluminum.
>>
>>But thanks for the links! I never would have clicked on the Yahoo
>>answers one... No idea why I did not find the other one, it should have
>>been on the first page or two of one of my searches.
>
>
> Try
> http://www.welding-technology-machines.info/welding-of-aluminium-and-
its-alloys/welding-of-aluminium-castings.htm
>
> For some pretty comprehensive information about welding aluminum.

Nice site, thanks. Direct link to SMAW page:

<http://www.welding-technology-machines.info/welding-of-aluminium-and-its-
alloys/metallic-arc-welding.htm>

Interesting how this site has completely different advice than yahoo
answers above, recommending perpendicular electrode position and a short
arc with fast straight travel (correct) vs yahoo advice long arc
horizontal electrode position (probably compensation for current or
travel speed too low or other bad technique. What is "cross arc"
anyhow?).

I have seen structurally sound welds in aluminum made with DC SMAW. None
were very good looking compared to GTAW or GMAW done by the same people,
but they weren't horrible either. (This was a case where there was a
small amount of non-critical aluminum welding on a mostly steel job, not
enough to bother shipping a different welding machine to the job site.)

SMAW is suitable for tack welding aluminum castings if you can come up
with a DC machine. I have never heard of successful use on AC, it is
already hard enough with DC.

> There is also some sort of "aluminum solder" that was discussed on
> rec.crafts.metalworking some time ago. If you are just sticking stuff
> together to try that might work. I believe it is low temperature
> operation.

"Aluminum solder" is zinc or mostly zinc, which alloys readily with
aluminum. You can make a weak connection with it with some difficulty
(it involves scratching off the aluminum oxide layer under a puddle of
flux and molten solder), but there is almost always a better way. If
used to "tack" a weldment, the welder would want to remove all of it
before welding near enough to melt it. Temporary bars or straps glued or
taped on might be easier for the welder to remove.

[John B.]

I have not done extensive aluminum using arc but my limited experience
was a fairly short arc, moderate rod inclination and really fast
travel. In fact, as I remember it, that was the hardest part of doing
it. The deposition rate is something like 3 times that of steel.

>I have seen structurally sound welds in aluminum made with DC SMAW. None
>were very good looking compared to GTAW or GMAW done by the same people,
>but they weren't horrible either. (This was a case where there was a
>small amount of non-critical aluminum welding on a mostly steel job, not
>enough to bother shipping a different welding machine to the job site.)
>
>SMAW is suitable for tack welding aluminum castings if you can come up
>with a DC machine. I have never heard of successful use on AC, it is
>already hard enough with DC.
>
>> There is also some sort of "aluminum solder" that was discussed on
>> rec.crafts.metalworking some time ago. If you are just sticking stuff
>> together to try that might work. I believe it is low temperature
>> operation.
>
>"Aluminum solder" is zinc or mostly zinc, which alloys readily with
>aluminum. You can make a weak connection with it with some difficulty
>(it involves scratching off the aluminum oxide layer under a puddle of
>flux and molten solder), but there is almost always a better way. If
>used to "tack" a weldment, the welder would want to remove all of it
>before welding near enough to melt it. Temporary bars or straps glued or
>taped on might be easier for the welder to remove.

--
John B.

[et...@whidbey.com]

On 18 Nov 2011 15:42:17 GMT, Glen Walpert <nos...@null.void> wrote:

Greetings Glen,
While you are correct about the aluminum solder being mostly zinc and
the necessity of scratching away the aluminum oxide coating under the
solder the joint done properly is not weak compared to the aluminum
being soldered. Recently I tested aluminum solder for a customer. The
solder was Forney brand. I soldered 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/8 angle. After
cleaning the aluminum I wet it with the solder and the used a
stainless steel brush to scrub the aluminum through the molten solder
to insure a completely wetted surface. I "tinned" or wetted two pieces
and then sweated them together at right angles, so the contact patch
was 1/2 x 1/2. After cooling the angle bent instead of the bond
breaking. I tried both twisting the pieces and peeling them apart. In
each case the aluminum bent and the solder did not fail. I was frankly
amazed. So I know that if the aluminum is properly wetted with the
Forney brand solder it will make a joint at least as strong as the
aluminum.
Cheers,
Eric

[Gunner Asch]

Saved!! What was the Forey ID?

[Glen Walpert]

That sounds like an excellent procedure, I'll definitely try it if a
suitable situation arises. I still don't think soldering is is a great
way to "tack" the parts of an aluminum weldment prior to welding, because
of the nasty behavior of zinc at aluminum welding temperatures, but it
could work fine if all of the solder is removed prior to welding within
an inch or so of the soldered "tack".

Regards,
Glen

[et...@whidbey.com]

Greetings Glen,
I wouldn't use aluminum solder for tacking parts that would be welded
over either. The zinc would at the very least contaminate the weld.
And boy does it fume.
Eric