I am official now

[Ernie Leimkuhler]

Today I had my Oral Exam for my WABO Special Inspector's certification
for Structural Steel Welding, and I passed.

WABO is the Washington Association of Building Officials, and they rule
all construction in Washington State.

I already have a Certified Welding Inspector card from the AWS, but
that just gets you in the door.

I spent the last few days cramming Structural Steel and Reinforcing Bar
code into my head.
Welding codes read like legal briefs, very dry and very wordy

It will take a few days for my new light blue Special Inspector's card
to arrive in the mail, but I just found out from the office that we
don't have to wait for it.
I am legal to do inspections now.

So tomorrow I should be back on dispatch.

Looks like I might just have a career in this silly inspection business
yet.

[JB]

"Ernie Leimkuhler" <er...@stagesmith.com> wrote in message
news:090420131314216162%er...@stagesmith.com...

Congrats Ernie. You going to take these inspection quals to a higher level
still? I can't see you being without another 'challenge' for long.
cheers!

JB

[Ignoramus26995]

Congrats!

i

[Ernie Leimkuhler]

I am already signed up for a class on Bolting.
The only other one I will need is Concrete Anchors.

I should have those 2 within a year.

With Structural Welding, Rebar, Bolting and Anchors I will stay very
busy.

[Terry Coombs]

"Ernie Leimkuhler" <er...@stagesmith.com> wrote in message
news:090420131314216162%er...@stagesmith.com...

Congrats !!
--
Snag

[Bob La Londe]

Not that it counts for much, but I already take your weld setups to the
bank. If you tell me how to do something it works every time.

Bob La Londe

[Martin Eastburn]

Wow that is really good for you!

After all of the tests and tests you get to another Testing career!

Good o there Ernie

Martin

[Jon Danniken]

Hello,

I am working on an exercise contraption that has a number of pieces of
horizontal pipe, welded on the main structure, which provide a
convenient place to hang the weight plates when they are not in use.

I am at the part where I have to weld the pipe sections on to the main
structure. The pipe sections are five inches long, and are 1.25"
schedule 80 pipe, and they will be fillet welded around the
circumference where they join the main structure (the main structure is
made from 2.5" square tubing).

So I'm all ready to weld these on, I have the main structure laying on
supports on the shop floor, and I have the first one clamped up, ready
to be welded around

Here's my question: how the heck to I maintain the correct rod angles as
I go around the circumference?

I played with a couple pieces of scrap yesterday, and while I can get my
weld started just fine, when I go to move *myself* around the work, I
find it nearly impossible to maintain the proper angle/distance/speed of
my electrode.

So how do you do it in a situation like this? Is the trick to give up
on the idea of doing one continuous bead, and instead do the weld in two
or three sections, so that you don't have to move your entire body while
trying to weld at the same time?

What's your technique?

Jon

[Existential Angst]

"Jon Danniken" <jonSPAM...@yaSMPAhoo.com> wrote in message
news:kkp06s$gh9$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

> Hello,
>
> I am working on an exercise contraption that has a number of pieces of
> horizontal pipe, welded on the main structure, which provide a convenient
> place to hang the weight plates when they are not in use.
>
> I am at the part where I have to weld the pipe sections on to the main
> structure. The pipe sections are five inches long, and are 1.25" schedule
> 80 pipe, and they will be fillet welded around the circumference where
> they join the main structure (the main structure is made from 2.5" square
> tubing).
>
> So I'm all ready to weld these on, I have the main structure laying on
> supports on the shop floor, and I have the first one clamped up, ready to
> be welded around

Are the pipe pcs vertical? That will be much easier than if horizontal.

Also, idn't sched 40 normal? Sched 80 very heavy? I"da thought sched 40,
in 1.25, would be more than strong enough.

>
> Here's my question: how the heck to I maintain the correct rod angles as I
> go around the circumference?
>
> I played with a couple pieces of scrap yesterday, and while I can get my
> weld started just fine, when I go to move *myself* around the work, I find
> it nearly impossible to maintain the proper angle/distance/speed of my
> electrode.
>
> So how do you do it in a situation like this? Is the trick to give up on
> the idea of doing one continuous bead, and instead do the weld in two or
> three sections, so that you don't have to move your entire body while
> trying to weld at the same time?

Proly difficult without a rotary sumpn or other.
I would certainly break it up.
--
EA

[Pete C.]

Weld positioners exist for a reason, move the part, not yourself.

[Richard]

Welcome to the joys and tribulations of aircraft construction.
At least you are welding to a square tube and don't have to fish-mouth
the joints. (Count your blessings!).

I've always done this kind of welding with a torch instead of stick.
It's easier (for me anyway)

But you figured it out already. Do it in sections, and when you start
a new section melt into the existing weld.

At the end of the day you will find muscles complaining that you
haven't heard from before...

[Stanley Schaefer]

On Apr 18, 8:33 am, Jon Danniken <jonSPAMdanni...@yaSMPAhoo.com>
wrote:

Don't know if it's the way the pros do it, but I tack opposite sides
6-8 times, then weld between tacks. I pretty much had to do that with
a muffler that split circumferentially or it would have distorted too
badly to make up. Going to have to have a healthy bevel to get
penetration on that schedule 80.

Stan

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

Stanley Schaefer <sta...@prolynx.com> fired this volley in news:844e07ea-
bfc7-48d3-810...@b20g2000yqo.googlegroups.com:

> Don't know if it's the way the pros do it, but I tack opposite sides
> 6-8 times, then weld between tacks. I pretty much had to do that with
> a muffler that split circumferentially or it would have distorted too
> badly to make up. Going to have to have a healthy bevel to get
> penetration on that schedule 80.

If you're not an exaggerated case of athletic eye-hand coordination, and
you can't put the work on a turntable, you're pretty much limited to
"segment" welding. If done well, it can look good, though not as good as
a continuous bead.

LLoyd

[Ignoramus8993]

I can weld around a pipe in two halves.

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

Ignoramus8993 <ignora...@NOSPAM.8993.invalid> fired this volley in
news:obCdnUCc6M_asu3M...@giganews.com:

> I can weld around a pipe in two halves.

That's still 'segments', Ig. You must be more coordinated than the average
Joe, but you still can't WALK around the circle and keep your angles, can
you? <G>

Lloyd

[Ernie Leimkuhler]

In article <kkp06s$gh9$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, Jon Danniken

Tack the pieces in at least 3 places.
Remove your clamps.
Weld from above, moving the rod around the joint.
If you can't manage a full circle, do it in 2 halves.

For prettier welds use a 7014 rod.
Much easier to run and plenty strong for weight lifting equipment.

[Ignoramus8993]

On 2013-04-18, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh <lloydspinsidemindspring.com> wrote:

Lloyd, I will try practicing without the arc, it helps a lot, maybe I
can learn to do it in one circle.

i

[Jon Danniken]

On 04/18/2013 11:11 AM, Ernie Leimkuhler wrote:
>
>
> Tack the pieces in at least 3 places.
> Remove your clamps.
> Weld from above, moving the rod around the joint.
> If you can't manage a full circle, do it in 2 halves.
>
> For prettier welds use a 7014 rod.
> Much easier to run and plenty strong for weight lifting equipment.

Thanks Ernie, and everyone else who replied. I ran a couple of test
pieces yesterday, and was able to do them in two passes. It was a lot
easier to run the bead without having to move my body at the same time,
so despite having to join two welds, the resulting weld looked a heck of
a lot better (and should be a lot stronger as well).

Thanks again,

Jon

[Jon Danniken]

On 04/18/2013 07:44 AM, Pete C. wrote:
>
> Weld positioners exist for a reason, move the part, not yourself.

I would have considered this, and while it would have worked on the test
pieces, the actual part I am doing the work on is too big (7' x 3') to
rotate in my
shop.

Jon

[Jon Danniken]

On 04/18/2013 09:10 AM, Stanley Schaefer wrote:
>
> Don't know if it's the way the pros do it, but I tack opposite sides
> 6-8 times, then weld between tacks. I pretty much had to do that with
> a muffler that split circumferentially or it would have distorted too
> badly to make up. Going to have to have a healthy bevel to get
> penetration on that schedule 80.

Thanks Stanly, I actually didn't bevel it, but just ran a fillet along
the outside; hopefully that will be sturdy enough for the application.

Jon

[Jon Danniken]

Hey Lloyd, the tricky part (at least for me) is joining the two
segments. I've learned how to reverse the travel angle to fill in the
crater at the end of a run, which at least helps to finish one segment.

Jon

[Ignoramus10907]

I have one for sale, it is a welding lathe

[Gunner Asch]

That means you dont have any interjoint bonding. Just glued around the
edges.

If its a low dynamic joint..not problem. If it is a dynamic
joint...expect to reweld it again..and again...

Most of the time..you can get away with it. Usually. Kinda sorta,
mostly.

Gunner...remember his spare tire that disappeared? No bevelling and
not enough heat....

[Jon Danniken]

On 04/19/2013 11:22 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 06:55:42 -0700, Jon Danniken
> <jonSPAM...@yaSMPAhoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On 04/18/2013 09:10 AM, Stanley Schaefer wrote:
>>>
>>> Don't know if it's the way the pros do it, but I tack opposite sides
>>> 6-8 times, then weld between tacks. I pretty much had to do that with
>>> a muffler that split circumferentially or it would have distorted too
>>> badly to make up. Going to have to have a healthy bevel to get
>>> penetration on that schedule 80.
>>
>> Thanks Stanly, I actually didn't bevel it, but just ran a fillet along
>> the outside; hopefully that will be sturdy enough for the application.
>>
>

> That means you dont have any interjoint bonding. Just glued around the
> edges.
>
> If its a low dynamic joint..not problem. If it is a dynamic
> joint...expect to reweld it again..and again...
>
> Most of the time..you can get away with it. Usually. Kinda sorta,
> mostly.

Isn't basic fillet welding just welding on the perpendicular faces?
That's the way it looks in the Navy manual, anyway.

> Gunner...remember his spare tire that disappeared? No bevelling and
> not enough heat....

Oh yes I remember that story! It was before I started welding, but I
have always kept it in my mind as a reason to make sure that my bead has
melted into the surfaces of both materials I am joining.

Jon

[Gunner Asch]

On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 11:58:37 -0700, Jon Danniken

<jonSPAM...@yaSMPAhoo.com> wrote:

>On 04/19/2013 11:22 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
>> On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 06:55:42 -0700, Jon Danniken
>> <jonSPAM...@yaSMPAhoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 04/18/2013 09:10 AM, Stanley Schaefer wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Don't know if it's the way the pros do it, but I tack opposite sides
>>>> 6-8 times, then weld between tacks. I pretty much had to do that with
>>>> a muffler that split circumferentially or it would have distorted too
>>>> badly to make up. Going to have to have a healthy bevel to get
>>>> penetration on that schedule 80.
>>>
>>> Thanks Stanly, I actually didn't bevel it, but just ran a fillet along
>>> the outside; hopefully that will be sturdy enough for the application.
>>>
>>
>> That means you dont have any interjoint bonding. Just glued around the
>> edges.
>>
>> If its a low dynamic joint..not problem. If it is a dynamic
>> joint...expect to reweld it again..and again...
>>
>> Most of the time..you can get away with it. Usually. Kinda sorta,
>> mostly.
>
>Isn't basic fillet welding just welding on the perpendicular faces?
>That's the way it looks in the Navy manual, anyway.

Yes it is.

There is a reason that pipes and other 'dynamic" joined objects are
not simply fillet welded.

They break at the welds.

>
>> Gunner...remember his spare tire that disappeared? No bevelling and
>> not enough heat....
>
>Oh yes I remember that story! It was before I started welding, but I
>have always kept it in my mind as a reason to make sure that my bead has
>melted into the surfaces of both materials I am joining.
>
>Jon

It still embaresses me..but (Smile) it has been part of my learning
curve. Wont happen again in my lifetime. I dun lernded!

Gunner

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

Jon Danniken <jonSPAM...@yaSMPAhoo.com> fired this volley in
news:kkrj1p$ich$1...@speranza.aioe.org:

> Hey Lloyd, the tricky part (at least for me) is joining the two
> segments. I've learned how to reverse the travel angle to fill in the
> crater at the end of a run, which at least helps to finish one segment.

If you think about it (and have HF arc starting), you can position the
rod exactly as it finished, and at the same point in the air as it was
when you finished (usually lower, but then raise it back to the right arc
length quickly), and except for some thermal distortion at the spot,
you'll continue the weld almost invisibly without 'filling a crater'.

LLoyd

[Ernie Leimkuhler]

Are there pictures?

Not that I "need" a third positioner, but "want" is another matter...



In article <McadneSZJ7_LyezM...@giganews.com>,

[Ed Huntress]

On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 19:12:47 -0700, Ernie Leimkuhler
<er...@stagesmith.com> wrote:

>
>Are there pictures?
>
>Not that I "need" a third positioner, but "want" is another matter...

Ernie! Since you're here, what do you think about the issue of "cold
starts" with MIG when you weld around the circumference of tubes in
multiple steps?

It's not something I'd do, but I note that the people who make tube
frames for kit planes go to great lengths to avoid it, to the extent
of making elaborate rotisserie-type fixtures to rotate the frame while
they're welding a joint. Some say that cold starts, which supposedly
result in high local stresses, make MIG a questionable method for
those life-critical applications.

What's your experience?

--
Ed Huntress

[Jon Danniken]

Thanks Lloyd, I'll give that a go. One of the things that the Navy
manual doesn't cover is how to tie in a bead to an existing welding
segment. It's a pretty important concept IMHO, and one which I wish was
covered by a manual or reference work somewhere, preferably online (like
the Navy manual).

Jon

[David Billington]

I thought that using HF start for MMA wasn't recommended, not quite sure
why but with my Hitachi inverter unit and others I've seen the
instructions for it wasn't to use HF for MMA. I tend to leave the stick
welding to my old oil cooled welder and leave it on 80V OCV and strike
an arc with a new rod on a piece of scrap and I then find I can just
place it on the weld site and it'll light up nicely, at least that's the
case with 6013 and the anvil hard facing rods I was using a few times
recently.

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

David Billington <d...@djbillington.freeserve.co.uk> fired this volley in
news:5172fea2$0$23471$5b6a...@news.zen.co.uk:

> I thought that using HF start for MMA wasn't recommended, not quite
sure
> why but with my Hitachi inverter unit and others I've seen the
> instructions for it wasn't to use HF for MMA.

That's funny, because they didn't start telling folks that until Mig and
Tig machines became common.

Back in the 1960s, GMAW and TGAW were almost non-existant except in
factory settings, but good stick welders could be had with HF starting
and arc stabilization.

Maybe 'they' don't recommend it, but there were sure a lot of weldors
using it until it became 'bad'.

All that aside... yes, you can, with the right amount of skill, do
exactly as you say. I weld so infrequently that I must use the machine
to help augment my skills.

LLoyd

[Ernie Leimkuhler]

In article <bic5n85rppocq1kfn...@4ax.com>, Ed Huntress

<hunt...@optonline.net> wrote:

> On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 19:12:47 -0700, Ernie Leimkuhler
> <er...@stagesmith.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >Are there pictures?
> >
> >Not that I "need" a third positioner, but "want" is another matter...
>
> Ernie! Since you're here, what do you think about the issue of "cold
> starts" with MIG when you weld around the circumference of tubes in
> multiple steps?
>
> It's not something I'd do, but I note that the people who make tube
> frames for kit planes go to great lengths to avoid it, to the extent
> of making elaborate rotisserie-type fixtures to rotate the frame while
> they're welding a joint. Some say that cold starts, which supposedly
> result in high local stresses, make MIG a questionable method for
> those life-critical applications.
>
> What's your experience?

I would never recommend MIG for air frames.
MIG is a very fast process and results in welds that are lightly
"quenched" by the surrounding cold metal, which can make the welds
harder than the surrounding metal, which can lead to cracking under
stress.
Cold Starts can be caused by old or dirty contactor relays in the MIG
machine that cause the wire to hit before the full welding current and
shielding gas are present.
One way to prevent a cold start from occurring in the weld is to start
the weld bead off the joint and walk it over.
Similar to how older Aluminum boat hulls were MIG welded before the
pulsers took over.

Industrial machines are more tune-able and can have a pre-flow of gas
and usually have more substantial relays.
Another problem is Whiskering, where the wire continues to feed after
the welding current has stopped, which causes the wire to fuse into the
cooled weld pool.
The problem with some aircraft kits is that below a certain size of
plane there is very little regulation or inspection.

TIG is a slower process that uses less overall heat and results in
welds that are more consistent with the surrounding metal.

I imagine if you had a high-end, digital, pulsed, MIG machine you could
likely dial it in and achieve reliable welds that would rival TIG
welds, but you are talking a starting price of $6000 for that machine.

I would still like to see some destructive test data, and proof that
the welds were properly engineered and specified in a Weld Procedure
Specification (WPS) and that the welders were certified to that
Procedure.

[Ed Huntress]

On Sat, 20 Apr 2013 23:27:01 -0700, Ernie Leimkuhler

Thanks for the insights, Ernie.

--
Ed Huntress

[Stuart Wheaton]

I would look at the stresses that the joint will see. In the example,
the most strain is on the top part of the joint, I would try to keep the
tacks and stops and starts away from the upper third of the joint. If a
person lacks confidence in their welding skills, it would also be
possible to drill all the way through the uprights and use a longer pin,
which makes the welding into place holding rather than load holding.

Stuart