Aluminum bell housing repair- Is it even worth the hassle?
Blackout
about a 6" crack in it but is still intact otherwise. Of course it has
been soaked in oil/grease it's entire life and the crack is probably
jampacked. He's going to clean it up and get all the grease off the best
he can but I figure it will need ground out and rinsed with acetone at
least. Of course he/I have no way to ID the alloy used. I have a 250 amp
watercooled TIG unit so I think I'm there as far as power goes. I figure
a nice preheat and then a slow cooldown will help it if it's doable.
Anybody have any experience on this one? Alloy suggestions? Is it going
to be practically impossible to clean and crack back out anyway? Should
I tell him to keep looking or stick my neck proudly on the chopping
block?
Thanks!
Ernie Leimkuhler
"Blackout" <blac...@404infomagic.net> wrote:
The only readily available rod that works OK for most castings is 4043, but you
can order better rod.
Alcotec recommends 4008 (for A356 castings) and 4145 (for A380 or A319 castings)
for aluminum engine blocks.
Have your buddy pay for a special order.
Check with the manufacturer to find out what aluminum they use.
Grind out the whole crack all the way through from both sides so there is no
original materiel in the crack.
Rinse with acetone, then preheat to about 600 degF.
Use a Tempilstick for temperature verification.
Weld up in many light passes, alternating sides.
Wire brush between the passes.
Cool slowly buried in Vermiculite (from a garden shop).
--
--
There are only two kinds of food: good and bad.
Also, all of life's big problems include the words "indictment" or "inoperable."
Everything else is small stuff.
Alton Brown, Host of Food TV's Good Eats.
John
crack" he means 6" wide...
Make sure you charge him enough (quoted before doing the job), that's
the best way I know of to determine if this is worth repairing or if
he's just trying to get out of spending $50 at the junkyard.
Ernie Leimkuhler wrote in message ...
jerry rausch
John wrote:
>
> Make sure you charge him enough (quoted before doing the job), that's
> the best way I know of to determine if this is worth repairing or if
> he's just trying to get out of spending $50 at the junkyard.
>
Rule of thumb, FWIW, Any repair job ought to be worth at least half the price of a NEW part.
>
>
> Ernie Leimkuhler wrote in message ...
snip
>>>
>>The only readily available rod that works OK for most castings is
>>
> 4043, but you
>
>>can order better rod.
>>
>>Alcotec recommends 4008 (for A356 castings) and 4145 (for A380 or
>>
> A319 castings)
>
>>for aluminum engine blocks.
>>Have your buddy pay for a special order.
>>Check with the manufacturer to find out what aluminum they use.
>>
>>Grind out the whole crack all the way through from both sides so
>>
> there is no
>
>>original materiel in the crack.
>>
>>Rinse with acetone, then preheat to about 600 degF.
>>Use a Tempilstick for temperature verification.
>>
>>Weld up in many light passes, alternating sides.
>>
>>Wire brush between the passes.
>>
>>Cool slowly buried in Vermiculite (from a garden shop).
Something that I used on cast iron was to drill a hole at the end of the
crack before welding. This stopped the crack from running further into
the part from heat and stress of weld. Don't know whether it applies to
aluminum but probably couldn't hurt.
Jerry
Blackout
> > Ernie Leimkuhler wrote
> >>The only readily available rod that works OK for most castings is
> >>
> > 4043, but you
> >
> >>can order better rod.
> >>
> >>Alcotec recommends 4008 (for A356 castings) and 4145 (for A380 or
> >>
> > A319 castings)
> >
> >>for aluminum engine blocks.
> >>Have your buddy pay for a special order.
> >>Check with the manufacturer to find out what aluminum they use.
> >>
> >>Grind out the whole crack all the way through from both sides so
> >>
> > there is no
> >
> >>original materiel in the crack.
> >>
> >>Rinse with acetone, then preheat to about 600 degF.
> >>Use a Tempilstick for temperature verification.
> >>
> >>Weld up in many light passes, alternating sides.
> >>
> >>Wire brush between the passes.
> >>
> >>Cool slowly buried in Vermiculite (from a garden shop).
>
>
> Something that I used on cast iron was to drill a hole at the end of
the
> crack before welding. This stopped the crack from running further
into
> the part from heat and stress of weld. Don't know whether it applies
to
> aluminum but probably couldn't hurt.
>
> Jerry
Ernie: your original post din't show up on my newreader so I'm
responding here. I've been on the phone to Ford for about a half an hour
now and asking them what kind of alloy the casting is futile at best and
will make you want to reach through the phone and strangle them at
worst. Any tips on determining alloy or should I just go with the 4043
and hope for the best? The guy brought the bell housing over and the
premiere welding shop here in town had tried to repair it years back and
thier job absolutely sucked, it doesn't look like they ground out
anything at all and the inside is untouched as well so I'll go ahead and
stick my neck out and say they probably didn't bother with much of a
pre-heat as well. It looks like a pain in the ass to fix but the guy's
truck is up on a lift and they have been on a nationwide parts hotline
for 2 weeks and nobody has one in the US to hear him tell it. I'm
covered as far as job cost go, I told him it was going to be a real pain
in the ass and take a long time if he wanted me to do it right and I'd
charge him when I was done for the time I had in it and it may or may
not work I'd rather that it did, though. How crucial is it to match the
alloy? With a decent preheat and an anal attention to cleanliness do I
have a shot at getting it to work?
P.S. Jerry: I plan on pre-drilling to stop the cracks but thanks for the
reminder anyways.
John
Hey, what kind of bell housing is that? I'd be surprised if I can't
get one, I got a friend with one of the best junkyards you've ever
seen- some of them Ford pieces can be hard to find, but they're out
there.
If you're interested, give me a write and maybe we can get you one
(and you *know* there's more profit in finding a good used piece than
messing around with something with a foul repair already..)
Don't that just aggravate you; the guys who talk big and swagger
around while they're impressing themselves with third-rate work often
get the good reputation- and if you go pulling off the difficult stuff
that they can't, that's all you'll get, the stuff that's way difficult
or has already been mangled. It just don't seem right...
John
Blackout
"John" <eaotis...@cbpu.com> wrote in message
news:3cbdc...@athena.netset.com...
it's an '84 Ford Ranger. Let em know.
Ed Huntress
news:Ynnv8.883$Ct1.1...@news.uswest.net...
>
> it's an '84 Ford Ranger. Let em know.
Tell us the type of transmission and engine it's for. I'd like to follow up
on this to see what Ford has to say. I talk to their PR department
regularly. If they're stonewalling on things like telling customers what
alloy is used for the transmission, I'll let them know about it.
Ed Huntress
Blackout
"Ed Huntress" wrote
> > it's an '84 Ford Ranger. Let em know.
>
> Tell us the type of transmission and engine it's for. I'd like to
follow up
> on this to see what Ford has to say. I talk to their PR department
> regularly. If they're stonewalling on things like telling customers
what
> alloy is used for the transmission, I'll let them know about it.
He told me it was an '84 Ford Ranger with a Toho transmission (5-speed).
The part number off the bell housing is on the inside of it and reads
FORD E47A-7505-EA. There is a casting mark on the outside that says
GLOBAL 186656 which looks to be the casting number. I was on the phone
for about 45 minutes with "customer service" and then "technical
support" today and they told me that I would have to get ahold of the
dealer which is where I got their number from in the first place. I told
them the dealer could tell me nothing and I needed to get ahold of
SOMEBODY that might know. They said they couldn't find out and I should
call the dealer. (REPEAT 4 TIMES). I finally told the guy that I KNEW he
din't know what it was but the dealer didn't either and him repeating
that he should over and over like some kind of witchcraft incantation
wasn't going to make it a reality and PLEASE give me engineering or
manufacturing or ANYBODY who MIGHT know their asses from holes in the
ground. They transferred me to somebody that sounded a whole lot more
helpful at first until I realized they had somehow transferred me back
to my local Ford dealer. He promised to look into it and call me back.
About an hour later he calls me back and tells me that it is made out of
PLAIN OL' ALUMINUM as far as they can tell. I did a websearch to see who
marketed the PLAINOLALUMINUM brand filler rod but came up blank for SOME
REASON.
If you deal with these bozos I would really appreciate it if you could
get me any info at all on it, if I call them back again I'm afraid I'll
have to drive down there and strangle them.
Oh yeah, it was about a 12 inch crack with 2 splitters coming off the
side, all hairlines to 1/32" or so and it's all tight so I'm not scared
of actually doing the job, it just seems like doing it to the BEST
extent of what is possible is the way to go. Thanks again for the
responses!
Ed Huntress
>
> If you deal with these bozos I would really appreciate it if you could
> get me any info at all on it, if I call them back again I'm afraid I'll
> have to drive down there and strangle them.
I'll see what I can find out. They're not likely to stonewall me, but that
doesn't mean they'll be able to give me an answer. In any case, I'll let you
know tomorrow.
Ed Huntress
John
Ed Huntress wrote in message ...
Boy does that ever sound like an experience- can it be assumed that
they don't have this part available from the factory? I'd be able to
understand them stonewalling if they wanted to sell the guy one and
weren't too interested in helping you repair a broke one, but if they
don't have the part then that's just wrong. I'll make a call tomorrow
and see if this guy has one of these, hopefully it wasn't one of them
things that they only sold 3 of..
John
Ernie Leimkuhler
"Blackout" <blac...@404infomagic.net> wrote:
I would run a test on a small area far away from any cracks to see if the 4043
flows well and cools to a good bead.
> The guy brought the bell housing over and the
> premiere welding shop here in town had tried to repair it years back and
> thier job absolutely sucked, it doesn't look like they ground out
> anything at all and the inside is untouched as well so I'll go ahead and
> stick my neck out and say they probably didn't bother with much of a
> pre-heat as well.
Being a good welding shop and being good at welding aluminum castings are 2
different things.
They likely had no experience.
> It looks like a pain in the ass to fix but the guy's
> truck is up on a lift and they have been on a nationwide parts hotline
> for 2 weeks and nobody has one in the US to hear him tell it. I'm
> covered as far as job cost go, I told him it was going to be a real pain
> in the ass and take a long time if he wanted me to do it right and I'd
> charge him when I was done for the time I had in it and it may or may
> not work I'd rather that it did, though. How crucial is it to match the
> alloy?
It is about 10% more likley to be a successful weld job.
> With a decent preheat and an anal attention to cleanliness do I
> have a shot at getting it to work?
>
It sounds like it is worth while to give it a try.
BTW You will want to heat it up to preheat temp, then wire brush it again since
stuff is going to leach out of the surface of the aluminum when you heat it.
Another reason why welding castings can be a pain.
Just be careful, no big hot spots.
Man of Steel
4043 has worked for me on countless tranny bellhousings. Tell the customer
that you can fix it but it will cost at least $75.00 (or whatever you want
for the minimum). Be fair, but be firm. They won't find a housing for less
and if they do then so be it. If they ask you why it so high tell them it's
aluminum.
You are not in the business to save your customers money and you don't want
to their friend! If you charge $40.00 an hour you lose $10.00 for every 15
minutes that the customer spends trying to reason with you.
Don't doubt yourself or undermine your skill and ability. If you can tig
weld, you can fix it. If you think it might break, be prepared for that when
you price it and price it high enough to cover those costs in case you have
to do it again.
Just my thoughts on something I have been doing for 15 years. I hope it
helps.
MOS
"Ernie Leimkuhler" <er...@stagesmith.com> wrote in message
news:ernie-E0E674....@news.mindspring.com...
Zorro
Tell the customer that you can fix it but it will cost at least $75.00 (or
whatever you want for the minimum)
Zorro says...
$75 sounds like peanuts. Not being a pro, I would think I might have to pay
in the $100 to $200 range to do it right. I would not want to have to pull
the tranny again!
MoS continued...
If you charge $40.00 an hour you lose $10.00 for every 15 minutes that the
customer spends trying to reason with you.
Zorro answers..
not if you start the clock while they're yappin'! ;^)
Ed Huntress
>
> He told me it was an '84 Ford Ranger with a Toho transmission (5-speed).
I'm going to do an end-run first to try to get the alloy number for you.
First, is this a Mazda (Toyo Kogyo) transmission or a Mitsubishi? Those are
the two companies who made Ford's '84 Ranger manual transmissions.
It may be cast on the housing. In fact, that may be what he means by "Toho."
Ed Huntress
John
What motor does that have, apparently there's at least two motors they
used in that year, and at least three transmissions..
John
Blackout
"Zorro" wrote
> Tell the customer that you can fix it but it will cost at least $75.00
(or
> whatever you want for the minimum)
>
> Zorro says...
> $75 sounds like peanuts. Not being a pro, I would think I might have
to pay
> in the $100 to $200 range to do it right. I would not want to have to
pull
> the tranny again!
I agree. By the time it's done I'm guessing around the same as you. I
told him I could do it quick or the best I could and quick is going to
crack again for sure so take your pick.
> MoS continued...
> If you charge $40.00 an hour you lose $10.00 for every 15 minutes that
the
> customer spends trying to reason with you.
>
> Zorro answers..
> not if you start the clock while they're yappin'! ;^)
I agree with this post.
50/50
Well, I work at the engineering center and it would probably take me forever
to find the contact person for this type of question so you really can't
expect a phone operator to know. And after 18 years whoever knew is probably
long gone or the engineering spec has changed.
Now, I don't piss Ford blue, but I believe it is Company policy that we are
not to take phone calls directly from the customer. anyway.
I've seen a lot of welded up bellhousings around here and as far as I know
the welder just uses what he's got on hand.
Ed Huntress
news:wVMv8.17306$3z3.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> Now, I don't piss Ford blue, but I believe it is Company policy that we
are
> not to take phone calls directly from the customer. anyway.
Ford's PR hasn't gotten back to me yet, but the Director of PR for Mazda
seemed upset that Ford didn't provide an answer. In any case, he suspects
it's a Mazda transmission and he's emailed the head of Engineering in Japan,
to see if they have a record of the alloy.
Ed Huntress
Bobby Burri
> What motor does that have, apparently there's at least two motors they
> used in that year, and at least three transmissions..
>
end to go into a parts house looking for a part just to have the clerk
ask me which month the car was built.
Bobby.
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
John
>Well, I work at the engineering center and it would probably take me
forever
>to find the contact person for this type of question so you really
can't
>expect a phone operator to know. And after 18 years whoever knew is
probably
>long gone or the engineering spec has changed.
>
>Now, I don't piss Ford blue, but I believe it is Company policy that
we are
>not to take phone calls directly from the customer. anyway.
>
>I've seen a lot of welded up bellhousings around here and as far as I
know
>the welder just uses what he's got on hand.
>
>
Have you pointed this apparent deficiency in these bell housings out
to anyone? I mean, come on- barring a serious accident, why should a
bell housing break in the first place? Big block Olds motors (Woo-Hoo)
used an alum. bell housing and I've not seen one of those break, and
you can take a lot more power out of that than anything in a ranger..
There's a lot of things I'd like to ask the engineers at Ford, in
particular about the ranger. Die cast hubs on the 4wd, serious
foolishness there.. Don't get me wrong, I like the good Fords- my
welding truck is a '74, and it's the berries- Dana axles, divorced
transfer case, enclosed knuckle front axle (admittedly, it a Dana44,
but I've not broke it and I work it pretty hard) but them rangers are
something else..
John
randy sutherland
(but I'm willing to learn) but I was under the impression that you
should keep the heat to a minimum as not to weaken the aluminum....dont
get me wrong I know that the amount of amperage used is directly related
to the thickness of the material and that some torch work is needed to
"clean " the crap off the surface but I have never actually preheated my
aluminum prior to welding. Often I will fill the crack, grind flush and
then plate a piece over top on a cleaner more solid surface just to seal
weld more than anything..
if you fix the housing then go fix an aluminum radiator ...now there is
a good time...
Randy Sutherland
Pictou, Nova Scotia.
50/50
I didn't mean to imply this particular part was being welded to repair an
in-service fracture. Some bellhousings are modified for other uses, some are
machined by outside machine shops, etc.