Choosing welder: Miller 350P vs. Lincoln 350MP
cpetrauskas
I'm a long time lurker and first time poster to the group. My welding
experience is limited to a little GMAW and stick at a VW/Peugeot shop I
used to work at years ago and recently I've taken some community
college welding classes here in Portland, OR. I have a fairly dialed-in
wood shop and now I'm looking to expand it to include metal fab. I'm in
the final phases of putting in a 100A subpanel to accommodate a welder,
plasma, etc. I want to be able to build furniture components,
greenhouse frames, utility trailers, sculpture, etc. The ability to do
aluminum is important but steel (mild & stainless) will most likely be
the main material I work with.
So, having said that, here's where I'm at in the shopping process, my
short list has one Blue and one Red:
Miller - Millermatic 350P
http://www.millerwelds.com/products/mig/millermatic_350_350p/index.php
Lincoln - Power MIG 350MP
http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/equipmentdatasheet.asp?p=40033
These two machines seem to be aimed at each other in their respective
companies marketing efforts.
I was actually pretty well set on the Miller after polling my teachers
and the fabricators where I work. I also talked to some sculptors I
know that are Miller fans. From reading this group I seem to sense a
slight bias toward Miller in the types of fab I'm interested in.
Then I discovered the Lincoln and their competitive comparison sheet
seems to make a strong case (of course that's their job):
http://content.lincolnelectric.com/pdfs/products/literature/mc04222.pdf
The highlights-
· Added TIG and stick.
I know I'm interested in TIG so although it's not my primary focus
right now it would be good to have it all ready to go. I'm generally
leery of machines that combine too many features in one. "Jack of all
trades, master of none." Does that apply in this case?
· "Pulse on Pulse", "Nextweld", "Waveform Control Technology", "s2f
for aluminum", blah, blah, blah... Look, I work in marketing so I know
buzzword overload when I hear it. But, is there really anything there
that will make a difference?
· 35 canned programs vs. 9 in the Miller. Programs for non-pulse
applications too.
And of course Miller has words on the subject of Lincoln:
http://www.millerwelds.com/products/mig/comparisons/millermatic_350_350p.html
I realize that these are both both probably excellent machines and I'll
have to lay down miles of bead before I get to the point where I can
discern subtle difference but I'd like to make a careful investment in
a machine that can take me well into the future with versatile
high-quality performance.
So, short story long, I'd appreciate any advice, opinions, rants, etc.
to be had on this subject. If neither of these choices seem good please
say that too.
Thanks again to all of you for making this group such an amazing
problem solving and for me, educational, resource.
Chris
Portland, OR
ps - I don't have much to offer in the world of welding knowledge (yet)
but if anyone needs any advice on audio-video production or web
development...
Ernie Leimkuhler
machines to pick from.
Am I missing somethjing?
I have been welding for 25 years, teaching welding for 13 years, doing
architectural fabrication for 10 years, a certified weld inspector /
educator, WABO weld examiner, and certified structural welder for 10
years, but I can't figure out why you guys want to spend some much money
for more machine than you need.
The best advice I can give you is buy a Millermatic 251 and a 30A
spoolgun.
You will be able to build everything you have listed and more.
Play with that for a while and then buy yourself a TIG machine.
I have built many structural I-beam arches, staircases, truck racks,
trailers, and all I had was a Hobart Betamig 250 from 12 years ago.
For aluminum MIG I have a Readywelder Spoolgun.
Yes the pulser options on the Miller 350 and Lincoln 350 make Aluminum
welding very easy, but a 30A spoolgun on a Millermatic 251 is a really
nice package, and will do lovely welds in aluminum.
The stick and TIG options on the Lincoln are rudimentary.
I would rather invest in a nice portable inverter TIG/Stick machine.
The Miller Dynasty 200DX is the best option here if you want AC TIG for
aluminum.
For less money get a DC only Maxstar 200DX, I have had mine for 6.5
years now and love it for TIG and Stick.
I guess this need for the biggest machine on the block is why they sell
monstrous stainless steel barbecues at Lowes.
The Miller 350 or Lincoln 350 make sense if you are running a medium
sized production shop, but for a one man operation, doing this and that,
they are just plain overkill.
BTW the only way you will get full use for welding aluminum from a
Miller or Lincoln 350 is if you add a Push-pull gun to them for another
$2000.
This takes the full package up to around $6000.
For that much money you can get the Millermatic 251, 30A spoolgun, and
Dynasty 200DX.
In article <1165196078....@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"cpetrauskas" <cpetr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I'm a long time lurker and first time poster to the group. My welding
> experience is limited to a little GMAW and stick at a VW/Peugeot shop I
> used to work at years ago and recently I've taken some community
> college welding classes here in Portland, OR. I have a fairly dialed-in
> wood shop and now I'm looking to expand it to include metal fab. I'm in
> the final phases of putting in a 100A subpanel to accommodate a welder,
> plasma, etc. I want to be able to build furniture components,
> greenhouse frames, utility trailers, sculpture, etc. The ability to do
> aluminum is important but steel (mild & stainless) will most likely be
> the main material I work with.
>
> So, having said that, here's where I'm at in the shopping process, my
> short list has one Blue and one Red:
>
> Miller - Millermatic 350P
> http://www.millerwelds.com/products/mig/millermatic 350 350p/index.php
>
> Lincoln - Power MIG 350MP
> http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/equipmentdatasheet.asp?p=40033
>
> These two machines seem to be aimed at each other in their respective
> companies marketing efforts.
>
> I was actually pretty well set on the Miller after polling my teachers
> and the fabricators where I work. I also talked to some sculptors I
> know that are Miller fans. From reading this group I seem to sense a
> slight bias toward Miller in the types of fab I'm interested in.
>
> Then I discovered the Lincoln and their competitive comparison sheet
> seems to make a strong case (of course that's their job):
> http://content.lincolnelectric.com/pdfs/products/literature/mc04222.pdf
>
> The highlights-
>
> · Added TIG and stick.
> I know I'm interested in TIG so although it's not my primary focus
> right now it would be good to have it all ready to go. I'm generally
> leery of machines that combine too many features in one. "Jack of all
> trades, master of none." Does that apply in this case?
>
> · "Pulse on Pulse", "Nextweld", "Waveform Control Technology", "s2f
> for aluminum", blah, blah, blah... Look, I work in marketing so I know
> buzzword overload when I hear it. But, is there really anything there
> that will make a difference?
>
> · 35 canned programs vs. 9 in the Miller. Programs for non-pulse
> applications too.
>
> And of course Miller has words on the subject of Lincoln:
> http://www.millerwelds.com/products/mig/comparisons/millermatic 350 350p.html
Ed Fasula
bunch of help in that thread making the same decission. Hopefully you
find what you need there.
I'm still evaluating the spool gun on the Lincoln - turns out the
salesman set it up wroung and I want to try it again. The new Lincoln
spool gun feels 100% better in the hand than the Prince gun (which
feels like holding toy machine gun squirtgun) I hope I can get the bugs
worked out - it seems like a decent gun (and it's $200 less)...but what
do I know - it's my first experience with a spoolgun.
Ed
Walter J Tarwid
for autobody/project work/whatever needs fixing today. and came up with the
Miller/Hobart 1802, but will set my sights on the suggested 251.
"Ernie Leimkuhler" <stage...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:stagesmith-C07C8...@news.west.earthlink.net...
cpetrauskas
Thank you for the detailed reply.
No, I certainly don't *want* to spend a big pile of change and frankly
those machines are pushing an already extended budget. My rational for
those was my (admittedly uneducated) perception that they represented
the best value in a machine with pulse + a two-gun ready set-up.
Amperage-wise I knew it was overkill.
So, how significant is pulse to the ability to weld aluminum and thin
sheet materials? If I'm concerned about weld cosmetics does it matter
more?
Thanks again
Chris
btw - We BBQ with chunk charcoal on a humble table-top Weber knock-off!
On Dec 3, 8:18 pm, Ernie Leimkuhler <stagesm...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> You are the second person in the last year to come up with those same 2
> machines to pick from.
>
> Am I missing somethjing?...
cpetrauskas
My apologies for missing that thread. It looks like you are well down
that research path.
I'm eager to hear what you discover on the Lincoln gun.
Thanks,
Chris
btw - I see you're in the green building game. It's a strong interest
of mine too. I'm studing for my LEED AP right now.
On Dec 3, 8:24 pm, "Ed Fasula" <edsuse...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Search for "Powermig 350 Multimaster 260" in this group - I just got a
> bunch of help in that thread making the same decission. Hopefully you
> find what you need there...
cpetr...@mac.com
I think I found your answer to the pulse question (pasted below).
I think this newbie is going to find a 251 with a spool gun and learn
from there!
Thanks again,
Chris
"On aluminum MIG there is no debate, pulsing rules.
On aluminum a very high initial arc heat allows deeper penetration
since it
prevents so much of the heat from being sucked away by aluminum's high
thermal
conductivity.
The pause between pulses allows the metal to soldify slightly before
the next
pulse hits.
A well tuned aluminum push-pull MIG setup with a pulser, can lay a
perfect weld
across 1/16" aluminum sheet with amazing speed, and very low
distortion.
I never recommend messing around with pulsers for newbie welders.
You can't really appreciate what they can do until you have a good
basic
knowledge of non-pulsed welds.
It can get a bit complicated trying to calulate pulser parameters."
On Dec 4, 7:34 am, "cpetrauskas" <cpetraus...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ernie,
>
> Thank you for the detailed reply...
Ed Fasula
Ernie Leimkuhler wrote:
> You are the second person in the last year to come up with those same 2
> machines to pick from.
>
> Am I missing somethjing?
Maybe it would insult your instructorness that some people can
financially justify using electronic wizardry to take the easy way out?
> I have been welding for 25 years, teaching welding for 13 years...
> Yes the pulser options on the Miller 350 and Lincoln 350 make Aluminum
> welding very easy, but a 30A spoolgun on a Millermatic 251 is a really
> nice package, and will do lovely welds in aluminum.
> I guess this need for the biggest machine on the block is why they sell
> monstrous stainless steel barbecues at Lowes.
Actually, the jealousy of those who WISH they had the "biggest machine
on the block" is the other downside to owning a 350 besides the price.
I think anything that makes welding aluminum easier has great potential
to save money if labor and material is figured into the picture. I've
seen master food grade stainless welders make a pretzel out of aluminum
work; and I have a friend who welds mild all day and when he does need
to do aluminum it takes a half a day to get back into it with his
Syncrowave. My first experience with aluminum was MIG welding 1/4"
structural in a shop where no one else had done it either. Temp stick
& rosebud pre-heat, short welds before the material vaporized, yuck!
I'm glad I was an employee not a contractor working on a quoted price!
I'm fascinated by the mental challenge of welding weird things in weird
conditions, and I blacksmith because I appreciate the purity and
connection with the material, but when I'm at work under the gun and
welding is a footnote in a project, I'm over it, I want to get it done
right the first time without staying late to brush up on welding thin
AL or whatever. The Lincoln 350MP can be setup to weld aluminum like
laying down caulk. And unlike you, I personally find value in being
able to pulse weld mild steel. On the same project I just used stick
(Maxstar 200 because that's all I had), MIG, and pulsed MIG - going
stick to MIG was at least 100% faster, and going MIG to pulsed MIG
allowed me to do overhead and vertical up around obstructions I would
have cut out otherwise.
None of the bells and whistles are magic but it certainly is nice, and
if someone has the budget, it's not hard to see that it doesn't take
much of an advantage to pay back a few thousand dollars - especially if
you plan to own the welder for a while. We're are talking about
building valuable things out of expensive materials aren't we, not
flippin burgers?
> BTW the only way you will get full use for welding aluminum from a
> Miller or Lincoln 350 is if you add a Push-pull gun to them for another
> $2000.
The Miller 350 and the spool gun talk to each other, so you get crater
fill, lead in, etc. I don't know what would be missing. The Lincoln
350 does need the push-pull to enable those features. I think the
Lincoln 250 talks to the gun.
> This takes the full package up to around $6000.
> For that much money you can get the Millermatic 251, 30A spoolgun, and
> Dynasty 200DX.
Ernie gives good advice. Still, on the other hand, you could argue
that buying a 350 gets you going with TIG and stick and making money,
then after you later buy the 200DX you have two really sweet machines
that will become long lasting friends you cherish.
To get me going, I'd rather have an aluminum MIG welder with bells and
whistles than a TIG with bells and whistles. It depends what your
skills, tasks, and finances are.
Ed
svan...@msn.com
area
of that machine. Chris is the community collage MT Hood????
My friend at Airgas deals with the guy out there and Clackamas too.
I don't remember his name but from what I heard, he is the most
knowledgeable guy around. He makes the most beautiful vertical
up mig welds you will ever see.
I had a nice little talk with one of the instructors at Clackamas
Collage
today. He is a teacher in the arts welding program, and he was looking
for ways to get their PM -350 to weld thin stainless. (Mig) I just ran
into
him at the welding store and I happen to know a bit about the Lincoln.
I kind of side with Ernie for once on the machines, although I am not
a real fan of the 251 miller. Maybe the new Miller 251 replacement unit
with the inductance control might be the one to wait for. It's getting
released the first
of the year in the Northwest. One machine that might be worth looking
at is the new shopmate DX . It will still cost money to outfit but it's
a chopper type like the Lincoln and Esab 260 ( Which I have and like
very well)
The Esab has a much better tig arc then the Lincoln and will go down to
one amp.
It's very smooth like a good inverter.
The thing about the Shopmate is, Miller found out you can run the
Optima pulse
box on that machine. That would give you options on real thin aluminum
that
you will not get with a 251 machine. The new 251/210 will run a push
/pull python
(direct plug-in)
PS- I have pulse on my Esab and it works great for Steel but I just as
soon
turn the pulse off when doing aluminum. It's does really good without
it.
I have a spoolgun and a push/pull arc assist gun on it too. Esab really
never got the aluminum working as well as the other machines.
The one to watch out for is the new Thermal-arc pulse machines made by
Lorch. Time to do a little waiting if your smart.
Scott
On Dec 3, 5:34 pm, "cpetrauskas" <cpetraus...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I'm a long time lurker and first time poster to the group. My welding
> experience is limited to a little GMAW and stick at a VW/Peugeot shop I
> used to work at years ago and recently I've taken some community
> college welding classes here in Portland, OR. I have a fairly dialed-in
> wood shop and now I'm looking to expand it to include metal fab. I'm in
> the final phases of putting in a 100A subpanel to accommodate a welder,
> plasma, etc. I want to be able to build furniture components,
> greenhouse frames, utility trailers, sculpture, etc. The ability to do
> aluminum is important but steel (mild & stainless) will most likely be
> the main material I work with.
>
> So, having said that, here's where I'm at in the shopping process, my
> short list has one Blue and one Red:
>
> Miller - Millermatic 350Phttp://www.millerwelds.com/products/mig/millermatic_350_350p/index.php
>
> Lincoln - Power MIG 350MPhttp://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/equipmentdatasheet.asp?p=40033
>
> These two machines seem to be aimed at each other in their respective
> companies marketing efforts.
>
> I was actually pretty well set on the Miller after polling my teachers
> and the fabricators where I work. I also talked to some sculptors I
> know that are Miller fans. From reading this group I seem to sense a
> slight bias toward Miller in the types of fab I'm interested in.
>
> Then I discovered the Lincoln and their competitive comparison sheet
> seems to make a strong case (of course that's their job):http://content.lincolnelectric.com/pdfs/products/literature/mc04222.pdf
>
> The highlights-
>
> · Added TIG and stick.
> I know I'm interested in TIG so although it's not my primary focus
> right now it would be good to have it all ready to go. I'm generally
> leery of machines that combine too many features in one. "Jack of all
> trades, master of none." Does that apply in this case?
>
> · "Pulse on Pulse", "Nextweld", "Waveform Control Technology", "s2f
> for aluminum", blah, blah, blah... Look, I work in marketing so I know
> buzzword overload when I hear it. But, is there really anything there
> that will make a difference?
>
> · 35 canned programs vs. 9 in the Miller. Programs for non-pulse
> applications too.
>
> And of course Miller has words on the subject of Lincoln:http://www.millerwelds.com/products/mig/comparisons/millermatic_350_3...
Ernie Leimkuhler
"cpetrauskas" <cpetr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ernie,
>
> Thank you for the detailed reply.
>
> No, I certainly don't *want* to spend a big pile of change and frankly
> those machines are pushing an already extended budget. My rational for
> those was my (admittedly uneducated) perception that they represented
> the best value in a machine with pulse + a two-gun ready set-up.
> Amperage-wise I knew it was overkill.
>
> So, how significant is pulse to the ability to weld aluminum and thin
> sheet materials? If I'm concerned about weld cosmetics does it matter
> more?
>
> Thanks again
> Chris
>
The pulser will make welding thin aluminum a lot easier.
1/8" to 1/2" aluminum is pretty easy to weld with any Spoolgun, or push
pull system, as long as you set the machine up right.
The pulsers just make sheet metal and overhead easier.
At South Seattle I spent 9 years training guys for aluminum boat yards.
The trick to aluminum MIG is all about dialing in the machine.
The welding is easy, once the machine is set right.
This is quite different than Steel MIG where the machine can be set
somewhere close and you just adjust your weld style.
With Aluminum MIG you want some way to document your settings for each
thickness and position of metal, like a small notebook.
FYI I have run several different high end pulsed aluminum MIG machines.
The Lincoln PowerMIGs are very interesting machines, and if I was
setting up a shop to build aluminum trailers I would be looking at them
seriously.
> btw - We BBQ with chunk charcoal on a humble table-top Weber knock-off!
>
The only way to go.
Chunk mesquite and a electric starter.
cpetrauskas
Thanks for the input on the machines. Interesting to hear about your
thin ss experinece with the 350p.
I've been doing some numbers on pricing using average "street" pricing
I'm finding.
To rig the 251 with push/pull:
Base $1860
Push/pull module $550
XR-A pistol-grip gun $945
TOTAL $3355
To rig the 350P with push/pull:
Base $3285
XR-A pistol-grip gun $945
TOTAL $4230
The delta is $875. That doesn't seem like all that much of a difference
if it's going to help me be more successful with AL and thin steel. I
also noticed that the 350P is bundled with a Bernard Q300 gun these
days.
What I do wonder here is if the push/pull pistol grip gun in this case
is that much better than the 30A spool gun at the same price. It looks
like it would have the same confined space disadvantages. Plus then I
wouldn't have to change reels and rollers in the machine and could have
two guns rolling at once. The slimmer XR-A Python costs twice as much.
My budget would certainly have to wait for that.
Thermal Arc? Lorch?
Oy. More choices. This is all making my brain hurt. =:)
Regarding the school:
I took my basic welding fab classes through PCC. They took place at
Glencoe high school in Hillsboro. I tell ya, where were machine shops
like that when I went to high school? They even had a PlasmaCam cutting
table. Now there is fun toy! The teacher is a guy that also runs the
fab shop at PNCA so he comes at it from a sculptural perspective which
suits me well. We started with oxy-fuel and then to stick and then on
to GMAW. It was really good experience for me.
I'll definitely follow-up with Mt. Hood to see if that guy has classes
on the non-credit schedule.
Scott, are you in the Portland area? If so, are you familiar with
Quimby welding supply on NW 14th? They seem like a big Blue dealer.
Thanks again,
Chris
cpetrauskas
Thanks for the clarification on the pulser.
Yes, I'll definitely be detailed on the record-keeping. If there is
anything I've learned from the fabricators where I work, that's it!
I think it's now time to get myself out to a dealer and see if I can
get to see some of this in action.
C.
On Dec 4, 9:33 pm, Ernie Leimkuhler <stagesm...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> In article <1165246481.668158.192...@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
> "cpetrauskas" <cpetraus...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Ernie,
>
> > Thank you for the detailed reply.
>
> > No, I certainly don't *want* to spend a big pile of change and frankly
> > those machines are pushing an already extended budget. My rational for
> > those was my (admittedly uneducated) perception that they represented
> > the best value in a machine with pulse + a two-gun ready set-up.
> > Amperage-wise I knew it was overkill.
>
> > So, how significant is pulse to the ability to weld aluminum and thin
> > sheet materials? If I'm concerned about weld cosmetics does it matter
> > more?
>
> > Thanks again
> > ChrisThe pulser will make welding thin aluminum a lot easier.
> 1/8" to 1/2" aluminum is pretty easy to weld with any Spoolgun, or push
> pull system, as long as you set the machine up right.
> The pulsers just make sheet metal and overhead easier.
>
> At South Seattle I spent 9 years training guys for aluminum boat yards.
> The trick to aluminum MIG is all about dialing in the machine.
> The welding is easy, once the machine is set right.
>
> This is quite different than Steel MIG where the machine can be set
> somewhere close and you just adjust your weld style.
>
> With Aluminum MIG you want some way to document your settings for each
> thickness and position of metal, like a small notebook.
>
> FYI I have run several different high end pulsed aluminum MIG machines.
> The Lincoln PowerMIGs are very interesting machines, and if I was
> setting up a shop to build aluminum trailers I would be looking at them
> seriously.
>
> > btw - We BBQ with chunk charcoal on a humble table-top Weber knock-off!The only way to go.
svan...@msn.com
I use to deal with Quimby because they had real good deals on gases.
I happened to get better deals at Airgas because I became friends
with the Manager at one of their bigger stores. He is totally color
blind
when it comes to machines. It always helps you see through the fog
of the Internet. He will let me grab almost any machine in stock and
set it up to run. I did that with the Dynasty 200/ Lincoln 205T and
the Thermal-Arc 185 Arcmaster last week. I bought the Thermal
because I feel Sarex Thermal are just the best. I could of got a
super price on the 200 Dynasty or Lincoln, but I just did not like
them as well. Neither did my friend. :) All good machines though.
That is how I look at the MM-350p and the Lincoln PM-350,
Good machines. I would wait for the Thermal Lorch 350 If
I was looking at a pulse unit. It's not showing the one Thermal
is bringing in but here is the link. It will be single phase/three
phase
like the Miller unit.
Scott