Skin Damage From Welding Ultraviolet Rays
Richard A.
I am 48 years old and worked in the shipyards as a mechanic (3 yrs),
metals inspector (5 yrs) and quality assurance specialist (10 yrs).
Today I am suffering terribly from actnic keratoses all over the right
side of my face, neck, chest and ear. Actinic keratoses (AK) are
mutated skin cells caused by exposure to ultraviolet radiation. The UV
produces free radicals in the skin tissue that mutates the cells and
can become cancerous. Believe me the pain from treating AK is
unbelievable, especially if it has grown deep. Along with the skin
damage the affect of AK to my neck has caused a head tremor Ive had
for 15 years now. I have ringing in the ear and my right ear is so
deterioated from treating the AK I'll be more than lucky if it heals.
When I was young, I ocasionally held pieces of metal together with my
hands for the welders to tack. As a metals inspector I was around
plate and pipe welding on a fairly regular basis. The intensity of UV
from an arc flash is off the charts I now know. The only 'caution'
that was given to people working near welding was 'watch your eyes'.
I'm here to tell everyone that thats totally insufficent. In my
opinion welding is near the top of the list of things that will
destroy your health and also the people around you. The only safe way
I can envison to weld is in a fully enclosed UV proof suit with an air
fed respirator. Knowing what I know now I would rather sweep streets
than work around welding.
Regards,
Rich
http://www.afscme.org/health/faq-weld.htm
Ernie Leimkuhler
ash...@hotmail.com (Richard A.) wrote:
That is why I hammer it into my students to wear full safety gear.
No short sleeve shirts, and gloves on both hands.
I lost all the skin on my left arm from the first time I MIG welded.
The idiots in the shop said I could play with the machine, and gave me no
warnings about the radiation.
I know that that increased my chance of skin cancer.
As a welding instructor I am also around arcs constantly and I have to remind
everybody to warn everybody nearby that you are welding, and drag welding
screens around where ever you are working.
--
--
There are only two kinds of food: good and bad.
Also, all of life's big problems include the words "indictment" or "inoperable."
Everything else is small stuff.
Alton Brown, Host of Food TV's Good Eats.
John
Thanks for passing this on, I'll make a point to be more aware of it
in the future (especially around the kids..)
John
Richard A. wrote in message ...
JP
Having grown up in the Southwest in full Sun and 110° summer temps, I
have AK too. In our teens, we used to pride ourselves on not having
to wear suntan lotion after mid-summer because we had built our tans
to resist the most brutal desert day. We'd ride bareback up the Rio
Grande river from El Paso to Truth or Consequences, NM and back the
next day wearing only cut-offs!! This blue-eyed gringo used to give
his Mexican compadres a run for their money on skin color. Have I
learned anything? Yes, to a point, but I have burned my arms and chest
TIG welding without a shirt on when my shop was 130° inside when the
A/C died. I know, stupid on ALL counts. NOW, I cover up. When I do
light MIG welding I do use a 20+ sun block on my arms and it works
well for me.
We'll be paying for our UV exposure the rest of our lives. I hate
liquid nitrogen, novocaine, and the scalpel for the deep lesions. I
tell my wife it's like being shot with a shotgun....lots of little
wounds that hurt like hell!! It does beat doing nothing and getting
cancer!
Best of luck,
JP
tailwaggers
aluminum all day.Crank my shade on my helmet to the point I can barely see.
It's necessary to watch for your self.
Mike Graham
>I'm here to tell everyone that thats totally insufficent. In my
>opinion welding is near the top of the list of things that will
>destroy your health and also the people around you.
I'm not the poster-boy for welding safety, but when I'm tacking in
short sleeves I use a high-end sunblock. It's quite effective.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Mike Graham | Fighting the good fight against porosity,
mi...@metalmangler.com | lack of fusion, and people who constantly
<http://www.metalmangler.com>| try to correct the spelling of 'weldor'.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
nuke
Rich,
As you no doubt know, for every horror story told to prove something
work related caused a health problem there is one that will disprove
it. But in todays PC world that doesn't matter, it's time for serious
welder control laws.
I have worked in nuclear related industries for over 20 years and my
radiation exposure is considered high. A mechanic I work with that
has less than 1000/th the exposure I do lost an ear to skin cancer and
he is convinced it is due to his work related radiation exposure. He
discounts the fact that he spent countless hours sailing and that he
was always getting his ears sunburned. Don't discount the role of
lifestyle and genetics in any illness, including heart disease, cancer
or AK. By the way, I am 46, started welding when I was 16. I spent
my first five years as a weldor installing wrought iron and structural
steel and during the summer I would usually take my shirt off so the
UV rays from my welding would tan my chest and stomach while the UV
rays of the sun tanned my back. I spent the next couple years (before
choosing to crawl around nuclear reactors for fun and profit) doing
MIG and TIG in a shop, and my neck and left arm alternated from pink
to peeling. Today I have experienced no ill effects from my youthful
lack of common sense and continue to weld (with a long sleeved shirt
on) for friends and as a hobby. Life is a risk, there is no 100%
guarantee that we will live disease free regardless of what we do or
don't do.
It is truly sad that we so eagerly allow ourselves to become victims
and expect others to protect us from ourselves.
-n
Ed Huntress
news:mmjecuglr48v0bf6d...@4ax.com...
>
> I'm not the poster-boy for welding safety, but when I'm tacking in
> short sleeves I use a high-end sunblock. It's quite effective.
Mike, I'm no doctor, but you might want to ask a dermatologist about that,
since you spend a lot of time welding. It turns out that sunblock is much
more effective at the longer-wave end of the UV spectrum, whereas the
serious, permanent damage from actinic rays (like welding rays) comes from
the shorter-wave end.
Sunblock makers don't have to be concerned about the shorter-wave end
because the Earth's atmosphere filters a large percentage of them out of
sunlight. Not so with rays from a welder.
Again, I'm not an authority and you should ask one. Neither am I a nut about
safety, although I think of myself as being sensibly cautious.
My recollection of all of this is from the advice of my dermatologist. I
have vitiligo over 100% of my body (I'm the whitest white guy you've ever
seen, short of an albino <g>), and my guy warned me about a lot of stuff,
including exposure to welding. At the time he talked to me I didn't do any
welding, so I didn't pay close attention. But it sounded scary.
Ed Huntress
Mike Graham
<hunt...@optonline.net> wrote:
>Mike, I'm no doctor, but you might want to ask a dermatologist about that,
>since you spend a lot of time welding. It turns out that sunblock is much
>more effective at the longer-wave end of the UV spectrum, whereas the
>serious, permanent damage from actinic rays (like welding rays) comes from
>the shorter-wave end.
Well, judging by the fact that I don't get 'sunburned' by the
welding arc when I use a good sunscreen, I feel that it is effective.
Keep in mind this is just for tacking, not running 100' of bead.
PIW
proof. I see a few others use it also, anyone think it may not be safe even
tho I dont get sunburned?
Les
Ed Huntress
"UV-C radiation from electric arc welding (UV-C 200-285nm) will rapidly
produce a
bright cherry red sunburn which is greatly different in appearance from the
sunburn
produced from over exposure to solar UV. Sunscreen preparations are not as
effective against this type of radiation, which is extremely damaging to the
skin, e.g.
premature ageing."
There's more to it than that, and my own feeling is that this is not a
subject on which non-experts like us are going to make valid evaluations.
The rest of that publication is available online, but it doesn't tell you
much more. If you want to see it, go to:
http://www.vthc.org.au/pdf/ohs/UVRAD.pdf
I'll bet that Lincoln and the other large equipment manufacturers have some
good info on it.
Ed Huntress
"PIW" <p...@snotmail.com> wrote in message
news:RNJx8.13659$mk6.4...@news2.east.cox.net...
Mike Graham
<hunt...@optonline.net> wrote:
>Les, consider this point made in an Australian government publication:
>
>"UV-C radiation from electric arc welding (UV-C 200-285nm) will rapidly
>produce a
>bright cherry red sunburn which is greatly different in appearance from the
>sunburn
>produced from over exposure to solar UV. Sunscreen preparations are not as
>effective against this type of radiation, which is extremely damaging to the
>skin, e.g.
>premature ageing."
Okay, so if this radiation will rapidly produce a bright cherry red
sunburn, then if the sunblock stops you from getting a bright cherry
red sunburn then it *must* be stopping the radiation, no?
Randy Zimmerman
my neck or on the wrist from using short gloves.
I wouldn't use the sun block only. I have talked to several people who
had worked loading and unloading welding fixtures beside a robotic arm.
The employer supplied sunblock and employees would rely on it for
protection.
I didn't think it was a wise thing to do. We will know the truth twenty
years from now. Personally I already play guinea pig too many times at
work.
"Ernie Leimkuhler" <er...@stagesmith.com> wrote in message
news:ernie-337ACA....@news.mindspring.com...
Richard A.
First of all, you can be covered in it and not see or or know it. My
skin texture and color on my face looked pretty normal except for a
couple very light brown spots on my forehead. The anti-cancer cream
that revealed it and attacked it is named Efudex and you can read
about and see treatment photos at:
http://www.skincancerinfo.com/ch4.htm
Click that link on the left that says "Treatment For Skin Cancer".
On my upper chest, neck and throat the skin had a permanent pinkish
color. Using the Efudex there was excuriating painful after the second
week, This is very serious business and I would advise no one with
pinkish skin,in those areas, to try to treat the entire area in one 5
to 6 week treatment. In my case the active anti-cancer ingredient
circulated thru my whole body thru the lymph system during the night
and the pain spread thru each part of my body a section at a time.
Also, my chest hair on my upper chest was white. Now that Im treating
the AK it's coming in brown. It is going to take me at least several
years of treament and recovery periods to try to kill the mutated skin
cells.
Sun exposure is normally the cause of AK, in my case I have 3 sisters
who spent more time outside and on the beach here in south east
Virginia than I did and their skin is not damaged like mine. I have
northern european genetics and light skin color. Living here in SE VA
I'm on the same latitude as the southern tip of Spain, so my skin
isn't build for the UV intnesity here. If you want to see what the
yearly UV range in your area is click here:
http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/stratosphere/uv_index/uv_annual.html
I joined the Actinic Keratosis Society online for free and they sent
me some brochures with info, pictures and a wallet card you can hold
in the sun for 15 seconds and get a color bar comparison of how strong
the UV rays are and what strength sun screen is needed. The chemical
on the card degrades with use so if you used it under a welding arc
you may burn it out in seconds. Here is their website:
http://aks.org/contact.html
As far as using sunscreen as a protection from welding, I wouldn't
trust it for all the tea in China. Maybe someone can contact the
American Welding Society and see what they say.
Lastly, if you're unfortunate enought to have AK like me, I can
highly recommened a book titled "The Wrinkle Cure'. On Page 135 there
is a list of anti-oxidants and supplements to help combat skin
probelms painlessly and I'm taking them all and they help. Alpha
lipoic acid is one of the more important ones. You can find this book
on amazon.com.
Regards,
Rich
PIW
Les
Richard A.
correct one is:
http://www.skincancerinfo.com/ch2.htm
Click the link on the left that says "treatment of precancers".
Also the UV intensity from a welding arc follows the inverse square
law. The UV intensity level at 1 foot from the arc is 4 times stronger
than at 2 feet. I serious doubt that normal work clothes are capable
of blocking the UV rays to a safe degree.
Regards,
Rich
Richard A.
I'm across the river in Portsmouth. My email is correctly shown on my posts.
Rich
Mike Graham
>Also the UV intensity from a welding arc follows the inverse square
>law. The UV intensity level at 1 foot from the arc is 4 times stronger
>than at 2 feet. I serious doubt that normal work clothes are capable
>of blocking the UV rays to a safe degree.
So we should all be wearing space-suits, or what? Maybe those
tinfoil dealies the vulanologists use?
Miss Jaime
<mi...@metalmangler.com> wrote:
> So we should all be wearing space-suits, or what? Maybe those
>tinfoil dealies the vulanologists use?
Just like the suits in the old Star Trek:TOS episode 'The Naked Time'
where Spock and Joe Tormolen (guy in a *red* shirt!) beam down to the
Planet Psi 2000 and when Joe takes off his glove he contracts the Psi
2000 virus and unknowingly brings it back to the Enterprise?
And *you* told *me* it was Spock who removed his glove. :)
http://www.startrek.com/library/tos_episodes/episodes_tos_detail_68674.asp
Miss Jaime (Hamilton Ontario Canada)
***The basic low carb is enough plainly cooked
meat/fish/eggs/poultry to take away your hunger,
plenty of oils to get adequate nutrition and
calories and plenty of green, leafy vegetables,
and water****
Remove the NADA to reply (newsgroups only)
John
Chocolate.
John
Dave Mundt
On 24 Apr 2002 10:26:14 -0700, ash...@hotmail.com (Richard A.) wrote:
>Hi All,
> I am 48 years old and worked in the shipyards as a mechanic (3 yrs),
>metals inspector (5 yrs) and quality assurance specialist (10 yrs).
*snip*
Well, the first time I picked up an arc welder (a few years
ago), I burned a number of "learning" welds on scrap stock while
wearing a "T" shirt. In spite of the fact that I probably had no more
than 15 minutes of ACTUAL arc time, I got a GOOD burn off it.
However, it was nothing different from what I get when I am stupid and
stay out in the Sunlight too long - dark red, and bothersome, but, no
blisters, etc.
Immediately thereafter I got a leather welding coat and wear
it whenever using the welder. No more problems, although, frankly, it
is a LOT more fun to weld in the dead of winter than it is at the
height of Summer.
I agree completely that the UV component of welding is NOT to
be toyed with. Treat it like a pet tiger. It might SEEM tame enough,
but, remember that it will bite your head off at the slightest
provocation.
Regards
Dave Mundt
Mike Graham
<justfo...@sympatico.caNADA> wrote:
>Just like the suits in the old Star Trek:TOS episode 'The Naked Time'
Those weren't tinfoil, those were shower-curtain material. Not even
*I* would weld wrapped in a shower curtain. 8-)
Miss Jaime
<mi...@metalmangler.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 00:05:20 -0400, Miss Jaime
><justfo...@sympatico.caNADA> wrote:
>
>>Just like the suits in the old Star Trek:TOS episode 'The Naked Time'
>
> Those weren't tinfoil, those were shower-curtain material. Not even
>*I* would weld wrapped in a shower curtain. 8-)
Well you have admitted to tacking (whatever that is) in short sleeves
so wearing the suit would probably be a step up for you. The
*material* of the suit wasn't my debate here...I was simply adding to
the concept of the *pattern* of the space suit. Tinfoil would not
make a suitable suit...it would come apart in too many places. You
need something in mylar like the suit that was worn in the opening
scene from 'Escape from the Planet of the Apes' or the ones worn in
an episode from the last season of Get Smart and other various tv
shows/movies of the 60's. :)
Mike Graham
<justfo...@sympatico.caNADA> wrote:
>Well you have admitted to tacking (whatever that is) in short sleeves
>so wearing the suit would probably be a step up for you.
Tacking is making very short beads of weld to hold pieces together
in the right orientation for welding.
And no, a shower-curtain suit wouldn't be a step-up, because the
material would melt onto your body and add to the problem. A cotton
t-shirt just gets holes in it.
John
Mike Graham wrote in message ...
>On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 08:53:20 -0400, Miss Jaime
><justfo...@sympatico.caNADA> wrote:
>
>>Well you have admitted to tacking (whatever that is) in short
sleeves
>>so wearing the suit would probably be a step up for you.
>
> Tacking is making very short beads of weld to hold pieces together
>in the right orientation for welding.
>
> And no, a shower-curtain suit wouldn't be a step-up, because the
>material would melt onto your body and add to the problem. A cotton
>t-shirt just gets holes in it.
Ever wear one of them "quilted" flannel-looking shirts and get it on
fire in the front? First thing you do is slap it out, and that nasty,
melted, supposed insulation in there splatters all over your
elly:-( Whoever invented plastic clothes should have had a different
idea..
John
>
>
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Miss Jaime
> Tacking is making very short beads of weld to hold pieces together
>in the right orientation for welding.
I think we did this when we were making the refridgerator shelves all
those years ago.
> And no, a shower-curtain suit wouldn't be a step-up, because the
>material would melt onto your body and add to the problem.
Have you forgotten that I suggested a Mylar suit too? :)
> A cotton
>t-shirt just gets holes in it.
Yeah I noticed. <grinning and ducking>
John
>> A cotton
>>t-shirt just gets holes in it.
>
That's why female welders are well liked..
John
Mike Graham
<justfo...@sympatico.caNADA> wrote:
>Have you forgotten that I suggested a Mylar suit too? :)
I was trying to. 8-) Mylar is polyester. Same as the hat that
melted to my head. For all intents and purposes to the discussion -
it's plastic, same as the shower curtain.
Stuart Wheaton
How does your sun block do against spatter? Or that moment when you rest
your elbow on the last joint while working on the next? I got a nice
green coat with leather sleeves, Comfy eneough, and very good
protection.
I wouldn't mig weld with my gas goggles, why would I mig weld in a tee
shirt?
Stuart
Mike Graham
<sdwh...@fuse.net> wrote:
>How does your sun block do against spatter?
That's what arm hair is for! 8-)
>Or that moment when you rest
>your elbow on the last joint while working on the next?
Like a flannel shirt is going to help?
> I got a nice
>green coat with leather sleeves, Comfy eneough, and very good
>protection.
I use cape sleeves, but when it's really hot...
Zorro
the UV produced is 40 times 40 (units).
David
"Richard A." wrote:
>
> "Ultraviolet radiation increases approximately as the square of the
> welding current"
>
> What does this mean?
It means that if you double the current, the UV increases 4 times.
Triple the current, UV goes up nine times etc etc
David
If a person is welding at 40 amps and is
> producing 100 units of UV, how much more UV would be produced if the
> ampearge was doubled to 80 amps? Any math wizards out there?
>
> Regards,
> Rich
brad
story.........
good luck-brad
Mike Graham <mi...@metalmangler.com> wrote in message
news:ilcicuch6qa5vq8li...@4ax.com...
Miss Jaime
Wait a minute.....*what* am *I* saying?!?!? <g>
Mike....take notes. :)
Miss Jaime (who has spent way too many hours tonight in MSN chatrooms
and needs sleep badly)
On Sat, 27 Apr 2002 01:37:01 -0400, "brad" <br...@microconnect.net>
wrote:
Miss Jaime (Hamilton Ontario Canada)
Miss Jaime
>Mike Graham <mi...@metalmangler.com> wrote in message
>> Not even
>> *I* would weld wrapped in a shower curtain. 8-)
Oh shucky darn and I had a new roll of film in the camera too. <g>
Gary Coffman
>What this mean, in so many words is if the welding current is 40 amps then
>the UV produced is 40 times 40 (units).
No. It means that if you double welding current, UV production is increased
4 times. If you triple welding current, UV production increases 9 times, etc.
This should make sense if you realize that UV production in the arc is
proportional to the *power* of the arc, and power increases as the square
of current. In other words, P = I^2 * R. For a given arc length, R is constant,
so P is proportional to the square of current.
Gary
Gary Coffman
>I checked out the AWS.ORG website for inforamtion on UV exposure and
>found this:
>
>http://www.aws.org/technical/FACT-PDF.EXE/FACT-02.PDF
>
> The paper seems to conviently skip over the prospect developing
>pre-cancerous actinic keratosis. I did read one shocking statement as
>follows:
>
>"Ultraviolet radiation increases approximately as the square of the
>welding current"
>
>producing 100 units of UV, how much more UV would be produced if the
>ampearge was doubled to 80 amps? Any math wizards out there?
400 units. UV production is proportional to the *power* of the arc, and
the power of the arc is proportional to the square of the current.
P = I^2 * R
Gary
PIW
Or that moment when you rest
your elbow on the last joint while working on the next?
I learned not to do that because it hurts too much!
Gary Coffman
>During the welding process energy is released in the infra-red,
>visible light and ultraviolet portions of the electromagnetic
>spectrum. Human senses can only gauge the out put of the infra-red (if
>you're close enought to feel the heat) and visible light wave lengths.
>I'd like to know what percentage or proportion of the energy relased
>is in the invisible ultra-violet spectrum. Like for example is there 5
>times more energy released in the UV range than the visible light
>range. I don't have the text books to find out what the energy curve
>is on welding. Any web links or inputs would be appreciated.
>Regards,
>Rich
Well, what we're dealing with is called a black body spectrum.
A handy applet is available at
http://alamo.bu.edu/applets/Spec/applet.html
Move the temperature slider and note the shape of the
wavelength versus intensity curve. As reference points,
an O/A flame is about 6,000 F, and the electric arc is
about 10,000 F. (Note, the temp slider is in degrees
Kelvin, so you'll need to convert Farenheit to Kelvin,
K = 5/9 * F + 273).
What you'll find is that at welding temperature, the
majority of the energy is at frequencies *below* the
ultraviolet.
Gary
dave seman
Another interesting site which shows the spectral content of major welding
processes is www.ehime-iinet.or.jp/ehime_e/corp/toyo/ronbun/ronbun.htm
The majority of power represented in the emissions is in the form of UV.
-Dave
news:<e72ae7b2.02042...@posting.google.com>...
Dan Caster
not change much with increased voltage, so an arc is more of a fixed
voltage and a small resistor. So I think the P = I^2 * R is not
right. It should be more like
P= I * 20 + [ I^2 * R ] where R is something like .03 ohms. Possibly
the temperature of the arc increases which causes the uv to increase
faster than the power in the arc.
I thought it was interesting that paints with TiO2 do not reflect uv
very well.
Dan
Gary Coffman <ke...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
Gary Coffman
>Richard,
>Another interesting site which shows the spectral content of major welding
>processes is www.ehime-iinet.or.jp/ehime_e/corp/toyo/ronbun/ronbun.htm
>The majority of power represented in the emissions is in the form of UV.
>-Dave
Line emission is a very minor part of the total energy of the welding process.
Gary
dave seman
Gary,
I mean to say that the UV portion of the energy spectrum represents
the most spectral energy when compared to visible light and infrared
portions--not that UV emission is the greatest portion of the total
energy delivered into a weldment during the welding process.
-Dave
John
observed at a place I worked some years back. Welded fairly heavy
stuff, and it just seems that the gas they ran was 95/5 argon/oxy
(feel free to correct that mix if it sounds wrong), it was real hot
stuff- I got to where I'd flip my mask just to tack, cause I got the
whole side of my head burned by doing the "turn the head and close the
eyes and hit it" thing..
Anyway, after I had worked there for a while, I noticed that my eyes
would start hurting on Sunday, and by Mon. morning they'd really be
bothering me- by lunchtime on Monday they'd feel fine and never a
problem 'till the next weekend. A couple of people that I mentioned it
to there agreed, after thinking about it- and all I could ever figure
was that there's something more to flashburn than you'd think; perhaps
a swelling that is painful when it goes down? Anybody else ever have
this happen?
John
Wm. B. Garner
since it is highly electrically conductive. A shocking experience indeed.
Bill
"Miss Jaime" <justfo...@sympatico.caNADA> wrote in message
news:cliicuc47ghechd94...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 06:58:45 -0400, Mike Graham
> <mi...@metalmangler.com> wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 00:05:20 -0400, Miss Jaime
> ><justfo...@sympatico.caNADA> wrote:
> >
> >>Just like the suits in the old Star Trek:TOS episode 'The Naked Time'
> >
> > Those weren't tinfoil, those were shower-curtain material. Not even
> >*I* would weld wrapped in a shower curtain. 8-)
>
> Well you have admitted to tacking (whatever that is) in short sleeves
> so wearing the suit would probably be a step up for you. The
> *material* of the suit wasn't my debate here...I was simply adding to
> the concept of the *pattern* of the space suit. Tinfoil would not
> make a suitable suit...it would come apart in too many places. You
> need something in mylar like the suit that was worn in the opening
> scene from 'Escape from the Planet of the Apes' or the ones worn in
> an episode from the last season of Get Smart and other various tv
> shows/movies of the 60's. :)
Miss Jaime
wrote:
>No, tinfoil, misnomer, aluminum foil would not make a good suit for welding
>since it is highly electrically conductive. A shocking experience indeed.
>Bill
I never suggested the tinfoil suits. That was Mike that did that. :)
Miss Jaime (Hamilton, Ontario CANADA)
Remove the NADA to reply(newsgroups only)
rryker1
"Wm. B. Garner" wrote:
> No, tinfoil, misnomer, aluminum foil would not make a good suit for welding
> since it is highly electrically conductive. A shocking experience indeed.
> Bill
>
Rod: Yep...
However, one would need to run at relative speeds
towards the UV Source in order to convert the
UV Waves into Gamma Waves.
That, my dear sir, would be a shocking experience! ;)
Regards,
Rod Ryker
Kevin in San Diego
welding without knowing what you are doing. What happened here?
Kevin
"Richard A." <ash...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e72ae7b2.02061...@posting.google.com...
> Hello again,
> I've posted my latest picture, UV12.jpg, to show what my 'healing'
> process looks like so far after 6 months of treatment on my welding
> ultraviolet radiation skin damage. I hope it makes believers out of
> you guys weilding the arc.
> http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/swinky00/lst?.dir=/Yahoo!+Photo+Album&.view=t
>
> I also wrote a follow-up email to OSHA, the people who are paid with
> my tax dollars to regulate and enforce safe workplaces. They never
> replied back. It looks like it's going to take a public out cry, like
> with the asbestos fiasco before they will take any action. No doubt
> big business doesn't want to spend the money to keep you safe or pay
> for your disabilty or medical treatments. Here's the letter:
>
> Dear Sirs:
> Thank you for replying to my email. The OSHA directives are very
> deficent in providing regulations for limiting ultraviolet radiation
> exposure from industrial welding. Some of the factors no expressed in
> the OSHA directive are:
> 1. Welding produces UV in all 3 bands A,B and C. UV-C is extremely
> biologically damaging to human tissue and is not found naturally on
> the earths surface because it is totally filtered by earth's ozone
> layer. UV-C is used in labortotatory and commercial applications to
> kill bacteria, fungus and other microbes. It will cause cell mutation
> in human tissue that can lead to cancer.
>
> 2. The OSHA directive provides no guidance as to the intensity of UV
> that welding produces. Welding UV increases with the square of the
> current. Double the the welding current and the UV is increased 4
> times, triple the current and the UV is increased 9 nines, etc.
>
> 3. OSHA gives no means to measure or otherwise quantify the amount of
> UV that welders or people working near welders recieve. Workers are
> being exposed to very hazardous UV everyday from industrial welding
> and undoubtabley have severely damaged skin and don't realize it.
>
> 4. OSHA places no restrictions on how close or far workers must be
> from welding UV sources.
>
> 5. OSHA does not rerquire any warning signs or labels on welding
> machines to notify users of the UV hazard the machine presents.
>
> This is a wide ranging issue that affects all phases of industrial
> work and I believe it needs serious and urgent attention to control
> widespread overexposure to UV radiation by workers thoughout America.
>
> Thank you,
> Richard Ashlin
> Please click on the following link to view the response to your
> question:
>
>
> http://www.osha-slc.gov/pls/edata/owae_data.osha_feedback?p_id=4262
Gary Coffman
>I missed the beginning of this thread but it would seem silly to just start
>welding without knowing what you are doing. What happened here?
>Kevin
Just another guy who wants the government to play Big Momma
and tell him to wear his leathers.
Gary
jess poling
Remove NOSPAM to reply NOSPA...@bak.rr.com
I started welding in 1968 and of course I have had burns from welding, BUT
nothing like that. I have never seen anyone that looked remotely like this
fella does. Even my BAD burns did not look like that and last this long. AND
I weld with no long sleeve shirt on anyway. Terrible looking BUT not quite
so sure he doesn't have other problems besides being allergic to welding
UV's.
"Gary Coffman" <ke...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:ln6mgucui69371ig2...@4ax.com...
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 6/5/02
JIMBO
my 2 cents worth.
A lot of older people working in trades today started out with on the job training
and very little actual formal training on the various processes we where working
with. If you asked questions you where given the companies standard line about
every thing being up to government or industry standards, what ever that meant.
You only have to look at old news reel footage of atomic bomb testing to see how
poorly protected the follow up crews where.
I was in the printing business for over 30 years and almost every chemical I ever
worked with is now considered a cancer causing agent.
Government run safety watch dogs are heavily influenced by powerful business
lobbies that don't want costs escallating because of safety issues.
Jimbo
"Richard A." wrote:
> To read all the threads on this subject go to http://www.google.com
> and click groups. Then type welding in the search block and it will
> display a link to this newsgroup near the top left. If I re-told the
> story from the start I'd just be repeating myself.
> As for Gary, next time you fill your car with gas be thankful that
> Big Momma makes sure your'e not filling it with water..one of these
> days when you realize what you're doing with ultraviolet radiation you
> can look back and reflect.
> Rich
John T. McCracken
"JIMBO" <ram...@golden.net> wrote in message
news:3D0BB909...@golden.net...
> I,m new to this group and I'm not looking for a fight but I would like to
thow in
> my 2 cents worth.
>
> A lot of older people working in trades today started out with on the job
training
> and very little actual formal training on the various processes we where
working
Most old timers did an apprenticeship with quite a bit of formal AND on the
job training.
> with. If you asked questions you where given the companies standard line
about
> every thing being up to government or industry standards, what ever that
meant.
> You only have to look at old news reel footage of atomic bomb testing to
see how
> poorly protected the follow up crews where.
>
> I was in the printing business for over 30 years and almost every chemical
I ever
> worked with is now considered a cancer causing agent.
>
They were not known to be hazardous at the time. Cry me a river. Take some
responsibility for yourserlf, don't be a sheep led around by the nose.
> Government run safety watch dogs are heavily influenced by powerful
business
> lobbies that don't want costs escallating because of safety issues.
>
> Jimbo
Can you whine a little louder? Another victim in the class warfare war.If
only the government would protect you in every facet of your life, huh? Must
be miserable being such a helpless little slug. JTMcC.
JIMBO
John Mc Cracken:
Always took responsibility for myself and I'm not what you would call a whiner
or a helpless little slug.
I can't for the life of me understand what would make you respond to my posting
that way. Would I be wrong in assuming your the type of person who only sees
things in black and white? Do you always attack and try and degrade people who
don't agree with your opinions?
Jimbo
Gary Coffman
>I started welding in 1968 and of course I have had burns from welding, BUT
>nothing like that. I have never seen anyone that looked remotely like this
>fella does. Even my BAD burns did not look like that and last this long. AND
>I weld with no long sleeve shirt on anyway. Terrible looking BUT not quite
>so sure he doesn't have other problems besides being allergic to welding
>UV's.
I agree. I do make an effort to minimize direct exposure to UV, as any sensible
person should, but there has to be something more going on here.
Gary
John Knoefler
can do that. especially with argon. I have seen those types of burns. If
one is just tacking or doing light welding with 7018 rods you might get
away with not using protective gear. I dont recommend ever exposing
skin to arc rays. Especially for those with a light complexion. There is
nothing "macho" about ruining your skin. Its just plain stupid and
pointless. If you want to be macho try boxing. The whole object of
welding is to WELD? Most welding injuries are caused by ignorance,
stupidity or just plain bad advice. I consider telling others that going
sleeveless shouldn't cause burns to be extremely poor advice.
John Lee Knoefler
John Knoefler
John Knoefler
sympathize with you? No dont bother to answer that. I do pity you. I
pity your ignorance and I pity your stupidity for which there is no
cure. Your skin will heal in time. But I question if training would have
helped you. Where did you learn to weld in the first place? What books
on safety did you read? Any? I doubt it. Welding is a trade. Every
craftsman learns from somewhere. We use our training to protect
ourselves from injury and death and hopefully some of the better welders
expand on what they have learned and pass on this expertise to others.
Thats what the books are for. And thats what is meant by vocational
training. I have always used long sleeves and button up all the way
to my chin. I even use a flap of leather on my hood. I use proper
welding gloves of the right thickness for the process i am using. I
practice good ventilation techniques I learned from reading safety
manuels. I was only injured once by arc burn. And whose fault was that?
MIne of course. I made a mistake and paid for it with some painful eyes
for a while. I didn't blame OSHA. After all OSHA does issue safety
manuals on this subject but better than that is the information to be
had on every box of welding rods. Hey, even better is common sense. What
did you think the hood was for in the first place? Show? What do you
think all that leather stuff at the weld supply store was for? Riding
your motorcycle to work? Did you ask anyone? Say like a pro who has been
welding for most of his life with no burns to speak of. You know you are
not the first person to do this and then whine and cry that no one told
you. If you were a real welder you would already know that you need to
cover up before you even strike and arc. I have welded for the better
part of twenty years and I have seen some really stupid welders. I have
had the worst of them laugh at me when I confessed i went to trade
school and colllege to learn my craft. Of course then they later ask me
how to make a weld that looks professional and doesnt have to be gouged
out and replaced. Well start by getting an education. If you think you
dont have time to do that then enjoy the lengthy healing process you
have earned from you ignorance. Bye the way, did you buy some protective
leather gear yet. or at least learn to button your shirt? Most sincerely
yours. John Lee Knoefler
John Knoefler
jess poling
simply that I weld with no shirt, not telling others to do it. And as far as
giving advise, I wasn't. Just stating what I do, not others.
"John Knoefler" <JohnKn...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:5746-3D0...@storefull-2131.public.lawson.webtv.net...
Josh Sponenberg
cancerous skin. it basically eats it away to remove anything
cancerous. It is a burn, in a sense, a *chemical* burn.
JohnM
I must say that I fail to understand the ugliness that's being tossed out
in this thread; as I took the original post on this subject, put up some
time ago, the intention was to inform people of the idea "this could
happen to you, and it sucks". I'm not sure that criticism is in order,
especially of the type I've seen in the past couple of days. If nobody
has worked in a small sweatshop recently, there is a considerable amount
of mig welding done by very much uneducated individuals; min. wage people
hired for unskilled work and there's an opening in a mig booth and it
looks fun and inviting (and they might get a quarter an hour more too)
and it's presented as something not at all out of the ordinary, so they
go buy a mask and they're a Welder now. If they get some burn, you can
believe that they're going to hear "That'll go away" or "You'll get used
to it" or "You were in the sun too long" a long time before they'll hear
"You need to be sure to protect yourself and have no exposed skin, 'cause
that will cause serious damage". I agree that people need to have
responsibility for themselves but there is also a responsibility on the
part of an employer to not deal in a dishonest fashion with the help-
that's what OSHA is supposed to be for, right? They can't be gotten rid
of, so at least they can be criticized into doing the job they claim to
do, which seems to be the point to this letter below. I also agree that
if you claim yourself to be a serious craftsman in this trade you should
have your clues all lined up, but the occasional reminder don't hurt and
this post and the pictures are a good one.
Thanks, eh?
John
In article <e72ae7b2.02061...@posting.google.com>,
ash...@hotmail.com says...
*Hello again,
* I've posted my latest picture, UV12.jpg, to show what my 'healing'
*process looks like so far after 6 months of treatment on my welding
*ultraviolet radiation skin damage. I hope it makes believers out of
*you guys weilding the arc.
*http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/swinky00/lst?.dir=/Yahoo!+Photo+Album&.view=t
*
* I also wrote a follow-up email to OSHA, the people who are paid with
*my tax dollars to regulate and enforce safe workplaces. They never
*replied back. It looks like it's going to take a public out cry, like
*with the asbestos fiasco before they will take any action. No doubt
*big business doesn't want to spend the money to keep you safe or pay
*for your disabilty or medical treatments. Here's the letter:
*
*Dear Sirs:
*Thank you for replying to my email. The OSHA directives are very
*deficent in providing regulations for limiting ultraviolet radiation
*exposure from industrial welding. Some of the factors no expressed in
*the OSHA directive are:
*1. Welding produces UV in all 3 bands A,B and C. UV-C is extremely
*biologically damaging to human tissue and is not found naturally on
*the earths surface because it is totally filtered by earth's ozone
*layer. UV-C is used in labortotatory and commercial applications to
*kill bacteria, fungus and other microbes. It will cause cell mutation
*in human tissue that can lead to cancer.
*
*2. The OSHA directive provides no guidance as to the intensity of UV
*that welding produces. Welding UV increases with the square of the
*current. Double the the welding current and the UV is increased 4
*times, triple the current and the UV is increased 9 nines, etc.
*
*3. OSHA gives no means to measure or otherwise quantify the amount of
*UV that welders or people working near welders recieve. Workers are
*being exposed to very hazardous UV everyday from industrial welding
*and undoubtabley have severely damaged skin and don't realize it.
*
*4. OSHA places no restrictions on how close or far workers must be
*from welding UV sources.
*
*5. OSHA does not rerquire any warning signs or labels on welding
*machines to notify users of the UV hazard the machine presents.
*
*This is a wide ranging issue that affects all phases of industrial
*work and I believe it needs serious and urgent attention to control
*widespread overexposure to UV radiation by workers thoughout America.
*
*Thank you,
*Richard Ashlin
* Please click on the following link to view the response to your
*question:
*
*
*http://www.osha-slc.gov/pls/edata/owae_data.osha_feedback?p_id=4262
*
LHCB
It seems he wan't a welder, nor did he claim to be. He worked near welders.
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&threadm=e72ae7b2.0
206142133.7e8b3f07%40posting.google.com&rnum=15&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dwelding%2
6start%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF8%26oe%3DUTF8%26selm%3De72ae7b2.0206
142133.7e8b3f07%2540posting.google.com%26rnum%3D15
"Hi All,
I am 48 years old and worked in the shipyards as a mechanic (3 yrs),
metals inspector (5 yrs) and quality assurance specialist (10 yrs).
Today I am suffering terribly from actnic keratoses all over the right
side of my face, neck, chest and ear. Actinic keratoses (AK) are
mutated skin cells caused by exposure to ultraviolet radiation. The UV
produces free radicals in the skin tissue that mutates the cells and
can become cancerous. Believe me the pain from treating AK is
unbelievable, especially if it has grown deep. Along with the skin
damage the affect of AK to my neck has caused a head tremor Ive had
for 15 years now. I have ringing in the ear and my right ear is so
deterioated from treating the AK I'll be more than lucky if it heals.
When I was young, I ocasionally held pieces of metal together with my
hands for the welders to tack. As a metals inspector I was around
plate and pipe welding on a fairly regular basis. The intensity of UV
from an arc flash is off the charts I now know. The only 'caution'
that was given to people working near welding was 'watch your eyes'.
I'm here to tell everyone that thats totally insufficent. In my
opinion welding is near the top of the list of things that will
destroy your health and also the people around you. The only safe way
I can envison to weld is in a fully enclosed UV proof suit with an air
fed respirator. Knowing what I know now I would rather sweep streets
than work around welding.
Regards,
Rich"
Ken
"JohnM" <eao...@deletethiscbpu.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.17762eaac...@news.cbpu.com...
John T. McCracken
>
>
> John Mc Cracken:
>
> Always took responsibility for myself and I'm not what you would call a
whiner
> or a helpless little slug.
>
> I can't for the life of me understand what would make you respond to my
posting
> that way. Would I be wrong in assuming your the type of person who only
sees
> things in black and white? Do you always attack and try and degrade
people who
> don't agree with your opinions?
>
> Jimbo
Jimbo, no one has to agree with my opinions. But, my little welding business
spends tens of thousands of dollars each year complying with government
rules, regulations and laws. Most I consider a waste of productive time,
some are necessary of course, but not many.When I see folks call for further
government intervention in my life and livelyhood I cringe. The same with
the tired old class warefare thing... big business abusing the little guy,
ect. I truly don't want or need a regulation telling me how to dress before
firing up . No personal offense intended JTMcC.>
Loren Coe
> I,m new to this group and I'm not looking for a fight but I would like to thow in
> my 2 cents worth.
me, too. i am thankful that Mr. Ashlin had the courage to post.
nothing said in words or print can make a statement like his pics.
> A lot of older people working in trades today started out with on the job training
> and very little actual formal training on the various processes we where working
> with. If you asked questions you where given the companies standard line about
i learned to gas weld on my own, have _never_ had any problems other than
occaisional minor skin burns. been welding for years, so i know how
to weld, how hard can arc be? so i learn it, self-taught, too. but the
years of success with gas has given me a sense of being a "welder" already,
just learning a new process. this is WRONG, dead wrong. believe me, this
post/pics is the best thing i have seen on Usenet this year.
> I was in the printing business for over 30 years and almost every chemical I ever
> worked with is now considered a cancer causing agent.
as a computer Field Engineer, we often went to chemical supply house to
draw tri-chlor from 40 gal drums, used to clean tape drives. we never
used rubber gloves or any breathing protection. we were young, and dumb,
they wouldn't sell this stuff if it was dangerous....
anyhoo, my personal thanks to you, Mr. Ashlin, you do a great service.
regards,
--Loren
Will
now retired. He never had anything like the burns in those photos. He did'nt
get any healthier by working around all the fumes, but never have I seen a
burn like that, and I would remember if I did.
Your pictures look more like damage from x-rays than UV, which makes me
wonder - perhaps the material which was being welded ?? Is it possibly that
you were burned by something other than UV ? Is it possible that welding
certain materials at certain amperage, frequency, etc could generate more
than just UV ?? Possibly beta or gamma radiation ?? I'm no physicist, but I
certainly think that there's a possibility. Might even be linked to some
contaminants in the material being welded. There are 106 elements in the
periodic chart, plenty of isotopes found in nature, and I dont think that we
can rule it out at this point.
Then again, your bodies response could be genetic in nature. You might be
the only person on Earth who's flesh will react this way to UV. Doubtful,
but it is possible.
I certainly hope you get better soon - an illness or injury such as this
definately sucks and I sympathize with your condition. Your photo's would
make excellent training aids for safety purposes - even though I am amazed
at the extent of the injury.
Gary Coffman
>Well, I'm a newbie around here, but my dad was a stick welder for 40 years -
>now retired. He never had anything like the burns in those photos. He did'nt
>get any healthier by working around all the fumes, but never have I seen a
>burn like that, and I would remember if I did.
Those are chemical burns. They aren't due to welding flash. He says he's
being treated with some chemical that strips off "mutated" skin cells. That's
what you're seeing in those pictures. It would be interesting to see some
pictures taken *before* the chemical was applied.
>Your pictures look more like damage from x-rays than UV, which makes me
>wonder - perhaps the material which was being welded ?? Is it possibly that
>you were burned by something other than UV ? Is it possible that welding
>certain materials at certain amperage, frequency, etc could generate more
>than just UV ?? Possibly beta or gamma radiation ?? I'm no physicist, but I
>certainly think that there's a possibility. Might even be linked to some
>contaminants in the material being welded. There are 106 elements in the
>periodic chart, plenty of isotopes found in nature, and I dont think that we
>can rule it out at this point.
Yes we can. Welding energies aren't sufficient to generate nuclear reactions.
The accelerating voltages just aren't high enough. Alpha, beta. or gamma rays
are nuclear in origin, and require accelerating potentials of millions of volts to
excite the nucleus sufficiently to generate them. Ordinary welding potentials
just tickle the outer electrons of an atom, and have virtually no effect on the
nucleus. Generating even soft X-rays, which aren't nuclear in origin, requires
potentials of several thousand volts.
>Then again, your bodies response could be genetic in nature. You might be
>the only person on Earth who's flesh will react this way to UV. Doubtful,
>but it is possible.
There certainly are genetic factors involved with respect to reactions to UV.
Fair skinned northern Europeans are much more sensitive to UV than are
darker skinned people from tropical climes. Within given poplulations, there
is individual variability too. This *may* be a case of hypersensitivity. Some
"before" pictures might help in drawing any conclusions about that.
I don't want to leave the impression that we can be cavalier about UV exposure.
We do need to take reasonable precautions. But Richard is being much more
alarmist than is warranted for the vast majority of us.
Gary
Will
to light. Were you taking anything ??
It might not be due to UV. There are all kinds of metals out there, some
contain Molybdeum and all kinds of other shit. You could be allergic to one
of these metals, or the resulting fumes.
One last thing - were you welding virgin metal - or was it scrap ?? You
know, there is all kinds of shit which gets on scrap metal. If you welding
on some metal which was in direct contact with certain chemical compounds,
you could be in some DEEP, DEEP SHIT. This type of thing is rather rare -
but one never knows. Just imagine all of the junk you see in a scrap pile -
where did it come from ??
Kevin in San Diego
risks of not being treated? Does the discomfort and ugliness of the
treatment outweigh the risk of not being treated? Are we going to see
effudex commercials on tv now after all the viagra and zyrtec commercials?
Kevin
"Richard A." <ash...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e72ae7b2.0206...@posting.google.com...
> Hi,
> I was never a welder myself. From 1976 to 1981 I was a federal
> worker, metals inspector. I was certified in magnetic particle, liquid
> penetrant, eddy current and radiographers assistant. I inspected
> 1000's of feet of weld and 1000's of pipe joints. Ocasionally my
> inspections were in close proximity of inprocess welding and the
> exposed skin on my head and neck would be 10, 20, 30 feet etc. from
> the welding arc or arc's of several welders working at once. I also
> inspected in-process chrome-moly boiler tube welding. I don't know if
> molybdeum increases sensitivity to to UV. I had been taking a few
> medications off and on during my metals inspector career but I know of
> no light sensitivity warning on them.
> From 1981 to 1991 I was a federal worker, QA Specialist. I did
> shipyard audits, including the pipe and structural welding audits,
> failure analysis investigations and lots of other duties. My exposure
> to actual welding during those years was low. I am unaware of any type
> of metal dust or fumes that will increase a persons sensitivity to UV
> but it's an interesting question.
> Regards,
> Rich
>
> Prior to being a metals inspector I worked my way up from helper to
> first class outside machinist at a private shipyard. As an 18 year old
> helper I ocassionally held pieces of metal in place by hand for
> welders to tack so they could weld it after I got out the way. Thats
> probably the worst exposure I recieved because I was only a few feet
> from the arc with my head turned to the left and my eyes closed. It
> appears the right side of my face and neck have more UV damage than
> the left, I haven't treated the left side yet.
John Knoefler
This is what happens when ignorant bosses and foremen do anything to get
the job done with no concern for the welfare of employees. I have seen
this before. They never train the employees they "invite" to weld. Mig
is the hardest on the skin I think of any welding process. To let
someone pick up a Mig gun with no safety training is the height of
arrogance and responsibility.
John Knoefler
Will
bulbs used for that are pretty hot with radioactivity from what I've heard.
Will
> the efudex is typically superior skin texture and appearance, it will
> clear up wrinkles and affects of aging to a degree. But..depending on
> your skin is pigmentation it can leave tell tale scarring. Fortunately
> fair skinned people like me have less tendency to exhibit the scars.
> The dermatology website I referenced in message no. 12 of this thread
> has more detailed info on efudex.
> Cheers,
> Rich
Keep the Efudex - I'll take the cancer.
Mike Graham
> I think many people working with welding equate a welding skin burn
>with a heat burn. The sensation and appearance are similar but the
>long lasting affects are totally different. Many welding supervisors,
>snappers and welders just plain don't know that the skin is permaently
>damaged and will keep growing in a mutated state.
IF this was true, then why don't we see heaps of old, scarred
weldors? I've never seen one, myself.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Mike Graham Ontario, Canada | Fighting the good fight against porosity,
mi...@metalmangler.com | lack of fusion, and people who constantly
<http://www.metalmangler.com>| try to correct the spelling of 'weldor'.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Gary Coffman
>On 22 Jun 2002 04:44:47 -0700, ash...@hotmail.com (Richard A.) wrote:
>> I think many people working with welding equate a welding skin burn
>>with a heat burn. The sensation and appearance are similar but the
>>long lasting affects are totally different. Many welding supervisors,
>>snappers and welders just plain don't know that the skin is permaently
>>damaged and will keep growing in a mutated state.
>
> IF this was true, then why don't we see heaps of old, scarred
>weldors? I've never seen one, myself.
Well, at least not one that looks like Richard in his pictures. But that's the
result of Richard self-medicating against doctor's orders (as he admits in
a post up the thread). Those chemical burns aren't the sort of damage
you usually see in old weldors.
Skin that's like old leather, scaly moles, large irregular freckles, etc, you do
see. What's often called a "weather beaten" look is really the result of UV
exposure over long periods. (Lots of that UV exposure may be from the sun,
but for weldors in particular a lot of it may be from failure to protect against
direct exposure to welding arcs.)
It just makes good sense to use the proper protective gear. A weldor's
tan is not cool.
Gary
Kevin in San Diego
Kevin
"Richard A." <ash...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e72ae7b2.02062...@posting.google.com...
> As I've I said before, the mutated skin on my face, neck, throat and
> ear looked normal to me, except the for a light pinkish color on my
> neck and throat. You can't look at the skin and see the damage. The
> mutated skin is a continuos extra load on the body's immune system, it
> will keep gowing and spreading and it can become cancerous.
> My doctor reversed his decision about dropping me as a patient for
> using the cream on my face, told me quote "You were right and I was
> wrong". Has since perscribed me about 6 more tubes on efudex over
> time, I'm using one right now today. The dermatologist has also
> perscribed me more tubes of efudex. The deal is I can't treat
> everything at once, it's too overwhelming, so I'm limiting it to less
> than 20 square inces at a time. My lips are a mess right now and it's
> the most of aggressive place to have mutated skin cells.
> If anybody wants to shoot holes in the information I've provided on
> this post please at least take the time to read all the messages
> because I feel like Im going over old greound repeatedly.
> Thanks,
> Rich
Gary Coffman
>The mutated skin is a continuos extra load on the body's immune system, it
>will keep gowing and spreading and it can become cancerous.
The mutated skin will only be an extra load on the immune system if
the body has an auto-immune response to it. Most mutations do not
generate an auto-immune response. Even cancer does not normally
generate an auto-immune response (if it did, the body could fight it
much more effectively). Some of the most promising cancer treatments
are predicated on *creating* an auto-immune response to the cancer
cells.
Your risk of cancer *is* heightened by UV exposure (and exposure to
a host of other things too). If the mutation damages the cell mechanism
which controls cell replication in such a way as to allow uncontrolled
growth, you have cancer. But most mutations don't do that. Most
mutations are non-viable, ie the cell dies. Some mutations allow the
cell to survive but not reproduce (so when it eventually dies, it is
replaced by the progeny of a different cell). Others let the cell reproduce,
but don't allow uncontrolled growth. Only a very select few mutations
are just right to cause uncontrollable growth, ie cancer. That's why
we don't all have it.
Obviously, the more cell mutations which occur, the greater the
probability that one of the ones which will be cancerous can occur.
So it is just common sense to avoid increasing the number of
mutations as much as is practical. But the mere fact that you have
mutated cells in your body doesn't inevitably mean that you'll
have cancer.
We all have mutated cells in our bodies. The body is constantly
rebuilding itself. Every time our cells reproduce, they lose some
information (biochemists are trying to understand why that's so).
The replacement cells don't mature the way the cells in our bodies
did when we were younger (ie they are no longer perfect copies,
they've mutated). Eventually, enough of these improperly replicated
cells accumulate so that our bodies no longer function properly,
and we die.
This is natural and normal, we aren't built to live forever. But there's
no reason to hasten the process by doing more damage to our cells
than necessary. That's why I'm somewhat dubious of chemically
attacking viable skin cells. The "cure" may well turn out to be worse
than the "disease". In other words, the cells which will be prematurely
replicated to replace the attacked cells will inevitably be mutated from
their parent, and that mutation may be more harmful than the one that
has benignly been existing for decades. (The odds are low that any
mutation will make a cell *better* than its parent cell.)
Gary
John Knoefler
to be desired and I have seen some messed up skin on my fellow welders.
Ship yard welding is the worst I think because of all the awkward
positions we have to be in to get to the work and lots of ship yard
welders subscribe to the macho theory.
John Knoefler
John Knoefler
Gary Coffman
>Hi Gary,
> Thanks for information on cell mutation mechanism. My body must be
>having an auto-immune response to my mutated cells.
Yes, sores that won't heal is one indication. (It is also a symptom of
diabetes, so it isn't a sure indication of an auto-immune problem.)
Chronic inflamation is probably a more reliable indication of an auto-
immune response. You seem to have that too.
I want to point out that your symptoms are fairly unusual. I think you've
been generalizing your problems to weldors in general here, and that
isn't necessarily the case. Most of us don't develop your symptoms.
For example, I've been welding for over 35 years, and don't have any
of the symptoms you exhibit. I am fairly careful, but I have received
UV burns.
If what you are suffering were common, then many of us here would
be exhibiting symptoms like yours. But so far no one has stood up
and said that they do. In fact, the opposite seems to be the general
consensus.
While I sympathize with your plight, I also don't want to encourage
an overly alarmist reaction to it. I don't think that there is any way to
deny that what has happened to you *can* happen. But I also think
that most of us are unlikely to experience what you have experienced.
In my lay opinion, you represent an extreme end of the spectrum of
responses to casual UV exposure.
Gary
Gary Coffman
>Gee Gary, You know about welding and talk like a doctor. No offense
>please but sounds like you doctor for a living and teach welding as a
>hobby. I am not criticising your well informed remarks. I just admire
>anyone as well informed as and articulate. Thanks for enlightening me.
>John Lee Knoefler
I'm not a doctor. But I am curious by nature, and read far more in
a week than most people do in a year. Some of it sticks. If I sound
authoritative, that's just my writing style. Don't take what I write as
the final word on anything, do your own research. All I can really
provide is what I hope is fairly well informed lay opinion.
Gary
Brian Evans
least to a great degree for his own skin damage. He (she) struck the damn
arc...
Brian
"Richard A." <ash...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e72ae7b2.02062...@posting.google.com...
> Pinning The Tail On The Donkey
>
> 1. The American Conference of Government Industrial Hygienists,
> (ACGIH), http://www.acgih.org, has established and published
> threshold limit values (TLV's) for ultraviolet radiation exposure. The
> TLV's for UV were first adopted almost 30 years ago in 1973. ACGIH
> publishes their TLV's and sells them at their website.
>
> 2. Canada has invoked the ACGIH UV TLV's into law, you can read about
> it in section 3 at this website:
> http://www.gov.on.ca/LAB/ohs/uvrade.htm
> Canada has socialized medicine and I assume that their government does
> not want to foot the bill for preventable industrial medical claims.
> They put the responsibilty for UV saftey where it belongs, squarely on
> the backs of the companies doing welding. They require trained people
> with appropriate measuring equipment to to meausre UV intensities for
> saftey purposes. There may be other countries, besides Canada, that
> have adopted the ACGIH UV TLV's.
>
> 3. To the best of my knowledge, for the past 30 years, here in the
> USA, OSHA has not invoked the UV TLV safety guidelines for welding.
> They have left you me and everyone associated with welding swinging in
> the breeze. I'm waiting for an email reply to answer the question why
> they haven't invoked the UV TLV's. It may take a 60 Minutes news team
> armed with a handful of Freedom of Information Request forms to shed
> some light on the deep thinking that went into their decision. If you
> want to write OSHA and ask them which way the wind blows, here is
> their web email url:
> http://www.osha.gov/pls/edata/owae_data.osha_form
>
> 4. The next question is who or whom is legally responsible for welding
> UV skin damage and who is going to pay.
>
> Regards,
> Richard Ashlin, ASQ Certified Quality Auditor