Can a Syncrowave 250 run from a 60A circuit

[Ignoramus21023]

I have a 60A circuit that would be very convenient to hook up to my
Syncrowave 250. It says that it requires 105A. I believe that this
would be if I use it at the highest setting, like carbon arc gouging
or welding aluminum, of which I do neither. All I do is stick and TIG
welding under 150 amps. Am I potentially looking for trouble? I do not
think so, but thought I would check.

The circuit is properly fused.

i

[Winston]

http://www.millerwelds.com/om/o353u_mil.pdf

See p. 17.

With the Power Factor Correction cap (C1) at
230 V and 60 Hz single phase, the machine
draws no more than 48 A, full tilt.

Without the cap, it'll draw 74 A.

--Winston

[Pete C.]

Absolutely. I ran my Syncrowave 250 from a 30A circuit for a year and a
half before I redid my shop power. I never had a single issue welding
the 14ga steel tube I usually work with, with the Syncro set for 150A or
so. BTW, a Syncro 250 will draw well over 105A on the input if you run
stick mode with arc control on full.

[dca...@krl.org]

On Dec 31, 6:58 pm, Winston <Wins...@BigBrother.net> wrote:

>
> With the Power Factor Correction cap (C1) at
> 230 V and 60 Hz single phase, the machine
> draws no more than 48 A, full tilt.
>
> Without the cap, it'll draw 74 A.
>
> --Winston

So without power factor correction it will be drawing a bunch of
current even when you are not welding. But you are probably okay
using it to weld steel. The factory power factor correction uses a
capacitor with a fairly high voltage rating and it connects to a
winding on the transformer that puts out a fairly high voltage. But
you can connect capacitors across the power lines and not worry about
the capacitors being connected to a higher voltage. Just means you
will need more capacitance.

If you do not have a good source of capacitors, you can get them from
Herbach and Rademan.


Dan

[Gunner Asch]

You will probably be ok. Ive got a Airco Square Wave 300 on a 60 amp
breaker..hell..most of my shop is on that breaker..and unless I get
over 225 amps..no problem, even with the lights and whatnot running.

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

[BobH]

On 12/31/2011 6:29 PM, dca...@krl.org wrote:
> On Dec 31, 6:58 pm, Winston<Wins...@BigBrother.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> With the Power Factor Correction cap (C1) at
>> 230 V and 60 Hz single phase, the machine
>> draws no more than 48 A, full tilt.
>>
>> Without the cap, it'll draw 74 A.
>>
>> --Winston
>
> So without power factor correction it will be drawing a bunch of
> current even when you are not welding.

Dan,
Give another look at that page. It sure looks to me like the non-PFC
unit idles at 4A (230V, NEMA Class II) and maxes at 92A input. The PFC
version looks like it pulls 66A in either state.

BobH

[Ernie Leimkuhler]

In article <yP-dnZtHEpwFC2LT...@giganews.com>,

I have had a Syncrowave 250 for about 15 years.
I do not have the power factor correction caps so I have fed mine a 90
amp circuit and never tripped the breaker, even on heavy aluminum, 310
amps output, with the fan going full tilt.
On a 60 amp breaker I popped it all the time.

As long as you keep your amps low you can get away with it.

[Jon Elson]

I think you can get away with it, unless the machine has a HUGE phase
correction bank. I am now running my Lincoln Square Wave TIG 300
on a 100 A breaker, but it will run on a 70 A breaker, at least at
reasonable output currents. It has trouble below 70 A due to the
huge power factor caps in it.

Trouble? It can't do any worse than tripping the breaker on you.

Jon

[dca...@krl.org]

On Dec 31 2011, 10:19 pm, BobH

<wanderingmetalhead.nospam.ple...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Dan,
> Give another look at that page. It sure looks to me like the non-PFC
> unit idles at 4A (230V, NEMA Class II) and maxes at 92A input. The PFC
> version looks like it pulls 66A in either state.
>
> BobH

I have to admit I had not looked at the manual when I posted. But now
that I am looking I can not find anything on the idle amps. Exactly
where are you finding that data?

Dan

[Pete C.]

That's closer to what I recall reading in the manual, however I will
note that those specs are based in the Syncro's rated 250A 40% duty
cycle output, not at the max panel amps of 310 or the max arc control
amps which will go over 400A (at less than 40% duty cycle).

[rangerssuck]

On Dec 31 2011, 9:39 pm, Gunner Asch <gunnera...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 17:11:20 -0600, Ignoramus21023
>

> <ignoramus21...@NOSPAM.21023.invalid> wrote:
> >I have a 60A circuit that would be very convenient to hook up to my
> >Syncrowave 250. It says that it requires 105A. I believe that this
> >would be if I use it at the highest setting, like carbon arc gouging
> >or welding aluminum, of which I do neither. All I do is stick and TIG
> >welding under 150 amps. Am I potentially looking for trouble? I do not
> >think so, but thought I would check.
>
> >The circuit is properly fused.
>
> >i
>
> You will probably be ok. Ive got a Airco Square Wave 300 on a 60 amp
> breaker..hell..most of my shop is  on that breaker..and unless I get
> over 225 amps..no problem, even with the lights and whatnot running.
>
> Gunner

Boy, for a guy who claims to know as much as you do about factory
wiring, you've got a pretty bad setup. Your lights should NEVER be on
the same circuit(s) as your tools. The last thing you want when
something screws up with a machine tool, hand tools or welder is for
the lights to go out, leaving you bleeding, electrocuted or burned,
sitting in the dark. It's a recipe for disaster.

But you knew that.

[BobH]

The version I looked at on the web last night had it on page 16 and the
section is marked "3-1. Specifications", there were two tables detailing
different operating configurations. Each table has a row for non-PFC and
PFG machines. The non-pfc row has two entries, with the the operating
condition on top and the idle condition below, marked with a single
asterix. There is a note in the tables indicating the asterix correspnds
to "While Idling". The PFC row has a single number with no distinction
between idling and operating.

BobH

[dca...@krl.org]

On Jan 1, 12:59 pm, BobH <wanderingmetalhead.nospam.ple...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> The version I looked at on the web last night had it on page 16 and the
> section is marked "3-1. Specifications", there were two tables detailing
> different operating configurations. Each table has a row for non-PFC and
> PFG machines. The non-pfc row has two entries, with the the operating
> condition on top and the idle condition below, marked with a single
> asterix. There is a note in the tables indicating the asterix correspnds
> to "While Idling". The PFC row has a single number with no distinction
> between idling and operating.
>
> BobH

You are absolutely right. And now I am confused. I have done some
power factor correction on both welders and motors, and never saw any
case in which the current while idle was lower with no correction.
Good to learn something new. Now I just have to figure out how they
did that.


Iggy, if you ever have time would you check and see what the current
draw is on your welder at idle. Inquiring minds want to know.


Dan

[BobH]

The non-power factor corrected machines just are't doing much but
running the cooling fan at idle, so no current required. My Syncrowave
has a thermostat on the fan so if I have not been cranking on it, the
fan does not even run.

I have not done a rigorous analysis of the power factor corrected setup,
but connecting capacitors directly across the AC line seems to me like
it would pull a lot of current. The phase angle on the current is going
to be close to 90 degrees leading at idle so the real power will be very
low. When you strike an arc, the current through the stabilizing
inductor and the transformer is going to be trailing, so the sum should
look resistive. From a handwavy analysis, it seems reasonable to me.

BobH

[dca...@krl.org]

On Jan 1, 5:21 pm, BobH <wanderingmetalhead.nospam.ple...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>

> The non-power factor corrected machines just are't doing much but
> running the cooling fan at idle, so no current required. My Syncrowave
> has a thermostat on the fan so if I have not been cranking on it, the
> fan does not even run.
>
> I have not done a rigorous analysis of the power factor corrected setup,
> but connecting capacitors directly across the AC line seems to me like
> it would pull a lot of current. The phase angle on the current is going
> to be close to 90 degrees leading at idle so the real power will be very
> low. When you strike an arc, the current through the stabilizing
> inductor and the transformer is going to be trailing, so the sum should
> look resistive. From a handwavy analysis, it seems reasonable to me.
>
> BobH

To me the non power factor corrected machine has a bunch of
magnetizing current going through the primary of the transformer.
Connecting capacitors directly across the line causes a current which
is 180 degrees out of phase with the magnetizing current. So those
two currents cancel. ( assuming the amount of capacitance is
correct ).

The next time my grandson is here I will try to make some measurements
of the current drawn while he welds.
Not easy to do by ones self.


Dan

[BobH]

On 1/1/2012 5:17 PM, dca...@krl.org wrote:
> The next time my grandson is here I will try to make some measurements
> of the current drawn while he welds.
> Not easy to do by ones self.

I have the same situation, no easy way to make measurements while
welding. I am also a little reluctant to hook expensive test equipment
up in a system with the HF active.

Is your machine power factor corrected? I looked at getting the power
factor correction, but the high idle current convinced me to get the
standard machine.

Happy New Year,
BobH

[dca...@krl.org]

On Jan 1, 11:53 pm, BobH <wanderingmetalhead.nospam.ple...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Is your machine power factor corrected?  I looked at getting the power
> factor correction, but the high idle current convinced me to get the
> standard machine.
>
> Happy New Year,
> BobH

I have a buzz boxt that I added some oil filled capacitors to reduce
the idle current. It is not a Miller machine. I have not measured
the current while welding, but measured the current while idling .
And added capacitors to reduce the idling current. The welder is a
buzz box with a iron core that gets moved to short out the flux going
from the primary to the secondary. It is an AC machine only and has
no stabilizing choke. If you are interested in how I determined how
much capacitance to add, I can try to do a write up that can be
understood. And look to see how much I ended up adding.

The best place to buy oil filled caps that I know of in Herbach and
Rademan.


Dan

[Pete C.]

BobH wrote:
>
> On 1/1/2012 5:17 PM, dca...@krl.org wrote:
> > The next time my grandson is here I will try to make some measurements
> > of the current drawn while he welds.
> > Not easy to do by ones self.
>
> I have the same situation, no easy way to make measurements while
> welding. I am also a little reluctant to hook expensive test equipment
> up in a system with the HF active.

AC clamp Amp probe, connected to a good DMM in peak recording mode
placed on the input side to the welder. HF should *not* be on the AC
line side, I'm pretty sure the designers of the machine put some effort
into ensuring it doesn't get there.

>
> Is your machine power factor corrected? I looked at getting the power
> factor correction, but the high idle current convinced me to get the
> standard machine.

Power factor correction is pointless for home use, it is only of value
in industrial settings with peak metered power.

[BQ340]

On 1/2/2012 10:05 AM, Pete C. wrote:
>

> Power factor correction is pointless for home use, it is only of value
> in industrial settings with peak metered power.

Would the power correction caps help any to limit the inrush on startup?
If so then you could get away with a smaller breaker if your wiring is
not ideal, IE a 60-amp circuit.

MikeB

--
Email is valid but not checked often

[BobH]

The Syncrowave has outputs on the 14 pin control connector to allow you
to read voltage and current in the weld circuit. That is what I was
worried about the HF on. That and ground interactions between the DVM,
PC (for recording), and the weld circuit.

I was interested in the power factor correction because the max current
is noticeably lower. The high idle current and cost made me change my mind.

BobH

[dca...@krl.org]

On Jan 2, 10:05 am, "Pete C." <aux3.DO...@snet.net> wrote:

> Power factor correction is pointless for home use, it is only of value
> in industrial settings with peak metered power.

Really depends on why one uses power factor correction. I did it for
a couple of reasons. The first was using a branch circuit that was
not as big as it should have been. The second was so I could take the
welder out of the basement and up to the the driveway. This meant
using a 75 or 100 foot extension cord. So reducing the current was
important. Well I could have run out and bought a # 6 or #8 extension
cord, but power factor correction was a lot cheaper.

In addition to the welder, I have a drill press with a 1.5 hp motor
that pops the circuit breaker when I have run it without some power
factor correction caps. With power factor correction no problem.
Without PFC I have to reset the breaker about half the time. It is on
a 120 volt 15 amp branch and adding PFC is a lot easier than running a
20 amp circuit. I think it is cheaper too.


Dan

[Pete C.]

BQ340 wrote:
>
> On 1/2/2012 10:05 AM, Pete C. wrote:
> >
>
> > Power factor correction is pointless for home use, it is only of value
> > in industrial settings with peak metered power.
>
> Would the power correction caps help any to limit the inrush on startup?
> If so then you could get away with a smaller breaker if your wiring is
> not ideal, IE a 60-amp circuit.

I never had a problem on a 30A circuit, and I did quite a bit of welding
that way running up to 150A or so output. If anything PFC would increase
the startup surge when charging the caps.

[dca...@krl.org]

On Jan 2, 2:09 pm, "Pete C." <aux3.DO...@snet.net> wrote:
> If anything PFC would increase
> the startup surge when charging the caps.

The current is AC. Since the capacitor current is out of phase with
the inductive current, power factor correction will reduce the
current. There really is no start up surge with welders. Light bulbs
have a start up surge as the resistance of a hot filament in much
higher than the resistance when the filament is cold.


Dan

[Jon Elson]

BQ340 wrote:

> On 1/2/2012 10:05 AM, Pete C. wrote:
>>
>
>> Power factor correction is pointless for home use, it is only of value
>> in industrial settings with peak metered power.

Not completely true. Some of these machines have really low power
factor at all welding currents, and the caps may reduce the worst-case
current, significantly. This effect is so large with the AC transformer
welders, that it can be clearly seen in the breakers they call for,
with and without the PF caps.

>
>
> Would the power correction caps help any to limit the inrush on startup?
> If so then you could get away with a smaller breaker if your wiring is
> not ideal, IE a 60-amp circuit.
>

No, actually, they may make it worse. It depends on the part of the
AC line cycle where the main switch closes, but if near the voltage peak,
there will be a large inrush to the capacitors. Depending on the design
of the main transformer, there can be what seems to be an "inrush" when
power is switched on near the zero crossing, as that can saturate the
transformer. I don't think the caps help much with this.

Jon

[DoN. Nichols]

Inverter style welders have a start-up surge, when the supply
capacitors are charged at first plug-in or turn-on.

Certainly the typical buzz box would not have a start-up surge.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
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[eric]

do you know the Mfd value of the capacitor and how many are required? thanks

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