Welder as backup generator??
Edward Haas
homestead, as outages are common and last for hours at a time. Also, there's
this little bump in the road that we *might* endure around News Years ;-).
I've also wanted to get a tig welder for years, but we have a real problem
with not enough power out here (would have to disconnect the stove to have
60 amps to run even a small welder...). The guy at the welding shop says:
why not kill two birds with one stone and buy an engine-driven welder with,
say a 7 or 9k generator attached to it, so that when power went out it
could be used to run the house? Sounds good to me: pay for a generator and
for only a modest additional fee I'll get that welder of my dreams! Can
anyone see a down-side to this idea, i.e. will the generator only be
suitable for intermittent use, would it be exceptionally noisy, would it be
a bear to wire into the house to run water pump, lights, etc?
--I'm considering a Miller, either the 8.5kw Bobcat 225D and the 9kw
Trailblazer 251NT, but would be interested in opinions about other
engine-driven Miller machines as well...
--TIA,
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : Are tea plantations
Watch link rot in action! : steeped in tradition?
http://www.nmpproducts.com
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---
Mike Graham
> --Have been thinking about getting an aux. generator for the
>homestead, as outages are common and last for hours at a time. Also, there's
>this little bump in the road that we *might* endure around News Years ;-).
>I've also wanted to get a tig welder for years, but we have a real problem
>with not enough power out here (would have to disconnect the stove to have
>60 amps to run even a small welder...). The guy at the welding shop says:
>why not kill two birds with one stone and buy an engine-driven welder with,
>say a 7 or 9k generator attached to it, so that when power went out it
>could be used to run the house? Sounds good to me: pay for a generator and
>for only a modest additional fee I'll get that welder of my dreams! Can
>anyone see a down-side to this idea, i.e. will the generator only be
>suitable for intermittent use, would it be exceptionally noisy, would it be
>a bear to wire into the house to run water pump, lights, etc?
> --I'm considering a Miller, either the 8.5kw Bobcat 225D and the 9kw
>Trailblazer 251NT, but would be interested in opinions about other
>engine-driven Miller machines as well...
An engine driven welder may or may not be easy to use as a generator
depending on how hearty an output plug it has. If it's got a 30A 240V
twist-lock output plug, then life is dead easy. If it's just got a few 110V
plugs, then it's not going to be a treat to use as a generator to power the
house. I'm not really familiar with Miller engine-driven stuff, so I can't
help you with specifics, but I know that all of Lincoln's machines have
full-KVA plugs, so chances are good that Miller's will, too.
Go for a diesel if you can... way cheaper to operate, and way less
maintenance.
As long as you have a full-KVA receptacle on the welder, hooking it up to
your house is pretty easy, indeed.
--
Mike Graham, mikegraham at sprint dot ca
Caledon, Ontario, Canada (just NW of Toronto).
Raiser of animals. Weldor of metals. Driver of off-road vehicles.
Writer of FAQs. Keeper of the faith, and all around okay guy.
< homepage currently off-line due to change of ISP; back soon >
Michael Mollenkopf
We also are rural prisoners of the power grid.
Have Miller Bobcat 225 NT(gasoline version) on one of our welding trucks. We
made a pigtail & installed a feed plug for the main breaker pannel. If grid
power goes out, pull truck next to shop, plug in, fire up, and live life as
usual. usually get 6-10 hours per tank of fuel (depends on load). Very good
weld characteristics for SMAW (stick), DC GTAW (tig), and 8kw clean power
(clean for a generator). You didn't say where you lived, but, here in
Wyoming diesel fuel can (and does) gel readily in the winter unless fuel is
kept warm and treated with anti-gel....all this for $3k including leads,
stinger, ground, helmet, a good supply of electrodes, ect...
Would personally opt for the gas model over diesel just for cold weather
reliability. we have hundreds of hours on this little bobcat. It has been
utterly reliable in any weather (+100f to -30f) Can't beat the price /
performance ratio in my eyes.
Hope this has helped a little.
Michael Mollenkopf
Owner / Operator
Go Mobile! Welding & Custom Fabrication
Cheyenne, Wy.
Edward Haas <ste...@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:7vgdh6$imo$1...@ultra.sonic.net...
> --Have been thinking about getting an aux. generator for the
> homestead, as outages are common and last for hours at a time. Also,
there's
> this little bump in the road that we *might* endure around News Years ;-).
> I've also wanted to get a tig welder for years, but we have a real problem
> with not enough power out here (would have to disconnect the stove to have
> 60 amps to run even a small welder...). The guy at the welding shop says:
> why not kill two birds with one stone and buy an engine-driven welder
with,
> say a 7 or 9k generator attached to it, so that when power went out it
> could be used to run the house? Sounds good to me: pay for a generator and
> for only a modest additional fee I'll get that welder of my dreams! Can
> anyone see a down-side to this idea, i.e. will the generator only be
> suitable for intermittent use, would it be exceptionally noisy, would it
be
> a bear to wire into the house to run water pump, lights, etc?
> --I'm considering a Miller, either the 8.5kw Bobcat 225D and the
9kw
> Trailblazer 251NT, but would be interested in opinions about other
> engine-driven Miller machines as well...
erpblp
You are on the right track with the Miller Bobcat Diesel, but you may want
to check out Miller's new PipePro 304 Miller took their XMT 304 CC/CV
inverter and put it in a diesel drive welder. The results are an excellent
welding power source, and a whopping 12KW 120 /240V Single /Three Phase
generator. It is powered by a Kubota DH905 26hp diesel.
Check it out!
Earl Pearson
Pittsburgh, PA
Edward Haas wrote in message <7vgdh6$imo$1...@ultra.sonic.net>...
Richard Currin
must wire for it. I mean install a transfer switch to prevent back feeding the
system and killing a lineman. The system must be wired to insure that only one
source can supply power at one time.
Michael Mollenkopf wrote:
> Ed,
> We also are rural prisoners of the power grid.
> Have Miller Bobcat 225 NT(gasoline version) on one of our welding trucks. We
> made a pigtail & installed a feed plug for the main breaker pannel. If grid
> power goes out, pull truck next to shop, plug in, fire up, and live life as
> usual. usually get 6-10 hours per tank of fuel (depends on load).
--
- Richard Currin
Facilities Agricultural Engineer I
University Field Labs, NC State University
Phone: (919) 515-2823 Email: richard...@ncsu.edu
Mike Graham
>If you are planning to use the generator to back up your home's power then you
>must wire for it. I mean install a transfer switch to prevent back feeding the
>system and killing a lineman. The system must be wired to insure that only one
>source can supply power at one time.
That's true, but ensuring that you can't backfeed does not *require* a
transfer switch. You can feed it through a breaker and shut off the mains.
No problem.
Richard Currin
here ...
You can not eliminate the possibility of either neglecting to turn off the main or
someone else turning it back on without using equipment designed to do so. It is
illegal to wire in a generator without a UL or equivalent listed switch with this
safety feature built in. 60 amp ones are readily available and cheap.
Mike Graham wrote:
--
Mike Graham
> 60 amp ones are readily available and cheap.
The last one I saw was $200. Cheaper?
Michael Neverdosky
and freezer
running you can just plug them into extension cords to the generator.
If you need the generator on a regular basis there is really no reason
to not
do it right and properly install a proper transfer switch.
Just like welding, using the right equipment in the correct manner will
always
produce better results.
michael
Richard Currin
breakers in it that are interlocked. This device is rated for 60 amps
so you can not put it upstream of your main panel. Square D and Cutler
Hammer both make kits that replace panel covers and allow you to back
feed a breaker in a panel. The Cutler Hammer goes up to 100 amps, I'm
not sure on the Square D. I saw the Square D unit at a show a few years
ago, but have not seen the exact item in a catalog. They offer a combo
meter base/panel unit that a kit (cover) is available for $148. The
double throws in the 200 amp range are very expensive, pushing $1K.
Mike Graham wrote:
--
Mike Graham
>I'm thinking about 50-60 bucks for a device that is a box with two
>breakers in it that are interlocked. This device is rated for 60 amps
>so you can not put it upstream of your main panel.
Oh, okay. A dumb t-switch is relatively cheap, but it's no more effective
than just having the feed on a breaker, and it is nowhere near as convenient
as a real t-switch, though it should make the system a bit more idiot proof
than switching completely manually. The ones that are worth owning are the
ones that sense the power coming back online and automatically switch
sources.
> Square D and Cutler
>Hammer both make kits that replace panel covers and allow you to back
>feed a breaker in a panel.
You don't need any special dealies to back-feed a breaker. The only
benefit of a t-switch is the connected nature of the switches so that you
can't have both sources open at once. It is, for all intents and purposes,
a double-pole double-throw switch. Our livestock doesn't require power
like, say, a poultry operation would, so we don't have a 50Kw plant with
auto-interrupt and whatnot. The generator is a PTO unit, so I've got to get
out there and do some work regardless. I just shut off the main disconnect
and then backfeed through a 50A breaker. Works wonders. If the lights come
on in the shed (seperate installation) then I pop the feed breaker and turn
the main disconnect back on, and we've got power again. Would be nicer with
a fully-auto setup, but it happens so rarely that it's just not worth the
money for us.
Richard Currin
illegal. That is really all there is to the question, it violates the law, at
least in the U.S. All it would take is a split second of not thinking to send
power back through the utility's transformer stepping it back up to line voltage
and kill a lineman working to restore your power. This could happen to someone
in the middle of the night if they are half asleep.
In the past I have done something similar to what you describe although I did
lock out the main or pull the meter. I realize you are on your private land and
have more control over who is around the service panel than say my group on a
state owned facility. I do not want the readers on this group to think that it
is "fine" to follow this practice. Now that I am older, (wiser?), and an
electrical contractor I can not in good faith recommend that practice. I know a
lot of people do just what you do to get temporary power. I've heard the dryer
breaker or receptacle is a popular place to do it. Our NCSU research poultry
unit has a 150 KW genset with an automatic transfer switch. Presently I am
working on a project to install a 150 KW with auto transfer on our Swine Unit.
I know this is cost prohibitive for individuals but our state agency had no
choice but to comply plus we have the additional loss of research data and
possible grant funds. I am glad we go to this measure. I sleep a lot better on
stormy nights!
Bill
> All it would take is a split second of not thinking to send
> power back through the utility's transformer stepping it back up to line voltage
> and kill a lineman working to restore your power. This could happen to someone
> in the middle of the night if they are half asleep.
I'm sure my 5kw unit would bog right out if it was trying to feed my
entire block. Remember the rest of the grid is still attached during an
outage. No way there'd be enough voltage to do diddly at that point!
I just pull the breakers and let 'er rip!
Thats all I have to say about that...
-Bill
Mike Graham
>breaker or receptacle is a popular place to do it. Our NCSU research poultry
>unit has a 150 KW genset with an automatic transfer switch.
Figured it must be poultry. Or pigs. Okay, obviously a 150KW unit could
cause some serious damage. By the time a joe-blow 5KW unit dissapates on
the grid, there's barely anything left. It's got to back-feed through a
transformer, and you know that everyone near you is going to have their
lights on, so they'll suck up your power for about half a second until the
breaker trips. If a lineman gets that half second of maybe 5 watts of
residual current, he'll barely feel it. However, if your codes say that you
have to have a transfer switch then go ahead and use one.
Michael Neverdosky
> I'm sure my 5kw unit would bog right out if it was trying to feed my
> entire block. Remember the rest of the grid is still attached during an
> outage. No way there'd be enough voltage to do diddly at that point!
Don't be too sure. The load might only be 2 or 3 houses.
I recently had a disconnect fuse blow on the pole behind my house.
Only 2 houses lost power. My generator very well might hav carried both
houses depending on what we all had turned on at the time.
> I just pull the breakers and let 'er rip!
Where did you say you lived?
Remember that in the case that someone is hurt your insurance company is
likely to run for cover and not allow or even defend your claim because
of
the illegal and clearly unsafe (read dangerous) was you are acting.
> Thats all I have to say about that...
I wonder what you would say if your generator killed a lineman?
I think it is fine for you to take chances with yor own life all you
want.
Putting other people at major risk because you are too cheap or lazy to
do a proper instalation is wrong.
michael
Mike Graham
>Don't be too sure. The load might only be 2 or 3 houses.
>I recently had a disconnect fuse blow on the pole behind my house.
>Only 2 houses lost power. My generator very well might hav carried both
>houses depending on what we all had turned on at the time.
If this uncommon thing happens *and* you forget to turn off the main
switch to seperate yourself from the grid, then you will be back-feeding you
and your neighbour. For a lineman to get zapped he has to be working on the
wires going to your house or your neighbour. Why would they be doing that?
CDT
Mike Graham <mikeg...@sprint.ca> wrote in article
<slrn82qpq6.2...@localhost.localdomain>...
> On Sat, 13 Nov 1999 08:03:00 +0000, Michael Neverdosky wrote:
>
> >
> If this uncommon thing happens *and* you forget to turn off the main
> switch to seperate yourself from the grid, then you will be back-feeding
you
> and your neighbour. For a lineman to get zapped he has to be working on
the
> wires going to your house or your neighbour. Why would they be doing
that?
>
>
Not exactly true...the pole pig will step up the 220V to 14KV and send
it back down the distribution feeder....if a lineman thinks that feeder is
dead he may end up dead instead.
-chaz
Mike Graham
>Not exactly true...the pole pig will step up the 220V to 14KV and send
>it back down the distribution feeder....if a lineman thinks that feeder is
>dead he may end up dead instead.
In the situation we are discussing the fuses on the transformer has blown;
it's cut off from the main grid. Even if it wasn't, the 5000W put out by
Joe Blow's home generator is going to be a whopping third of an amp at 14KV
even if they get the *entire* output of the generator, which they won't.
Likely maximum would probably be closer to 100th of an amp, and linemen are
trained to treat every wire as live, so in addition to all of the weird
circumstances that we've already thrown out here, the lineman has to be
asleep at the switch as well. I'd like to see official numbers regarding
actual incidents of linemen getting zapped by backfeeding generators, and
the size of those generators.
Richard Currin
more than enough to kill. I base my fears on experience from Hurricane Fran.
Fallen tree limbs knocked out power in neighborhoods and along roads on both
sides of substations. I do not see how anyone could state that beyond the shadow
of doubt the power is going to be dissipated on a grid. Every time we have
have a Hurricane warning our town sells out of generators. These are purchased
by people who either know nothing about electricity or just enough to be
dangerous. It is these people who are likely to take a little bit of
information on back feeding a panel and kill someone. It does not have to be a
linemen it could be anyone a tree removal contractor, or just a homeowner with a
chain saw who sees a broken line down his street and doesn't suspect that is
neighbor up the street is going to kill him with his 5000 watt generator. Your
logic on linemen would be analogous to saying it's ok to shoot at cops because
they wear bullet proof vests. That sounds harsh but, it's basically the same
thing, they are prepared for a hazard so that lessens my responsibilities to
avert one.
But as I've stated in almost every post it does not matter how you rationalize
your actions, or how careful you are, or how dinky your generator is, or how
linemen are prepared it simply is illegal.
Mike Graham wrote:
--