Johnson Controls Metasys
Jason McGehee
the Landis and Staefa System 600.
Johnson Offers
* Faster and more reliable Networking 25mb to 100mb Ethernet
* Multiple configurations of networks and workstations to meet each
buildings specific needs
* More integration over 1000 3rd party interfaces including other control
systems Landis and Staefa, Honeywell, Andover, Barber-Colman,
Robertshaw,etc.
* Better alarm, password and report management.
* Controllers offer a better standalone applications
* Terminal Controllers very easy to configure and program. Question and
Answer programming.
* Johnson has awesome paging and Microsoft Windows integration.
* Johnson has better performance on large networks University of California
has over 80 Network Controller on one network with over 8000 points
including Labs, Cogeneration, Terminal Storage, Steam Generation, Central
Cooling Plant, Integration to Honeywell, Landis and Gyr, Toshiba PLCs, and
Phoenix Fume Hood Controllers
* Metasys has BACNet and Lonworks capabilities already.
* You can buy Metasys from Johnson Controls Field Office, or Johnson
Controls Authorized Building Control Specialist. Metasys can be sold over
the counter to.
Check out these web sites
http://www.johnsoncontrols.com/cg-cases/cs_SanDiego.htmwww.ecscontrols.com
http://www.johnsoncontrols.com/Metasys/connectivity.htm
http://www.ecscontrols.com
http://www.johnsoncontrols.com/Metasys/
http://www.johnsoncontrols.com/Metasys/bacnet.htm
http://www.jci.com/cg/html/products.htm
paul milligan
wrote:
>I find the Johnson Controls Metasys is much better for large facilities than
>the Landis and Staefa System 600.
{ long promo piece snipped }
Then on the other hand, I think JCI sucks, and is terribly
overpriced, not to mention the high labor charges afterwords, but
that's just one mans opinion.
Don't forget to check out Siebe, Robert-Shaw, Honeywell, and
Andover.
Paul
I have employment openings in Raleigh/Durham, NC
HVAC, controls, engineering, programming, CAD etc...
Email me if interested
>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~
pjm@(remove this part )pobox.com
My WWW site is at http://www.pobox.com/~pjm, featuring free HVAC software.
The Sci.Engr.Heat-Vent-AC and Alt.HVAC FAQ is at http://www.elitesoft.com/sci.hvac/
David & Kathy
paul milligan <pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
35cfa1fb...@news.concentric.net...
> Don't forget to check out Siebe, Robert-Shaw, Honeywell, and
>Andover.
>
>
>
>Paul
Lets not forget trane either :)
D.M.
If you have used Trane Summit, J.C Metasys, Landus and Staefa, or Carrier
These are the manufactures being considered for this project.
I'd love to here the pro's and con's.
Thanks Dave
David & Kathy wrote in message <6ql64k$i...@news2.snet.net>...
JSmart
FUNCTIONAL without an overpriced network all together!
--
Marc Popek VP Engineering http://www.SmartSystemsintl.com
Smart Systems International 702-734-0044 Smar...@Worldnet.att.net
World's Smartest, Energy Saving, Automatic and Comfortable HVAC Controls
No Programming, No wiring, No royalty, SSDN All premises open architecture
network
David & Kathy <fore...@snet.net> wrote in article
paul milligan
>And whom can ever forget Smart Systems where you can actually get SOMETHING
>FUNCTIONAL without an overpriced network all together!
Ummmm...... I could ? If I stopped reading these groups, that
is.....
Doug Hickman
how good our system is.
The unbiased advice that I can give you is that the system that you
should get probably depends on what you want to do with it. If you
have a large campus environment then you probably want something from
one of the larger companies. They have probably put a lot of effort
into ethernet capabilities and of course the security that would go
along with it. Of course, you may not need all of that. That is not to
say that they can't do small jobs also, but if you have small needs, a
small company may fill the bill.
The other thing to look for is service. If it needs service, who will
do it? Will it be a local distributer or a local company office. A
company may have a great product but have poor support in your area.
Talk to other users in your area and make sure that they are happy.
Talk to more than one. Also, have the salesman set up a demonstration
at a customers site that resembles yours.
The last thing is training. Make sure that you can get fully trained
on the system. The more that you can do yourself, the more money you
can save in the long run. Be realistic though on who on your payroll
will actually be willing to do the work. It always amazes me that of a
staff of 20, there is usually only one person that really takes an
interest in learning the system and he/she has the least seniority on
the job. They then become a threat to others on the job and it creates
some interesting personel problems.
One last note. As you read responses to your messages to the group,
try to remember to take all responses with a grain of salt. I can
think of at least one former Landis and Staefa employee that likes to
flame us just out of spite. That really doesn't help you or anyone
else.
Doug Hickman
On 10 Aug 1998 16:27:49 PDT, pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com (paul
Nuke622B
>If you have used Trane Summit, J.C Metasys, Landus and Staefa, or Carrier
>These are the manufactures being considered for this project.
>I'd love to here the pro's and con's.
How about 3 of them all on the same project??
Due to complete ignorance of the subject, our illustrious engineers managed to
specify and purchase 3 different control systems to do one campus! These
idiots deserve a most public flaming!!
I'm an operator at the new (2 years old) central plant at Washington National
Airport. For control of our plant (5 ea Trane 1150 ton CHVE's and 3 HTW
generators totalling 200 million BTU/hr) we use Foxboro, the industrial parent
of Robertshaw. It's a little on the complex side, but it's fast and reliable.
It's more suited to refineries and power plants.
For the control of the end use of all this heating and cooling all over the
airport, Landis & Staefa (System 600) got the nod. So far there is a total of
maybe 3000 VAV's being controlled, plus all the associated air handlers, heat
exchangers, and what-not. The system also monitors the elevators and
escalators. Although it is within the capabilities of the Landis system, the
common area lighting is being controlled by a separate system, vendor unknown
(to me, anyway). Seems to be working out well. Response is a little slow, at
least when compared to the Foxboro system, but not so that it impacts what an
operator wants to do. The only drawback I have seen is that the various
subpanels on a common network must be connected in series, which makes phased
construction a little strange. But the individual panels can operate alone
without connection to the network, and are accesible locally via laptop, you
just don't have remote capability until the series loop is completed.
Now for Trane. Seems Trane and Foxboro don't like to talk to each other, so we
ended up with Summit just to talk to our chillers! All Foxboro can do to them
is turn them on and off. And each chiller has two sets of instrumentation
hanging off of them, one for Summit, the other for Foxboro. Our controls guy
has rigged some 4-20ma signals from Summit to Foxboro to give us some
additional indications on our Foxboro screens so we can get a better picture,
but it still takes two PC's to actually provide a complete and total operator
interface. So I don't have that much experience with the system as it doesn't
do much for us, but it seems to be a nice system.
And for my largest peeve: guess what we don't have??? And guess why not?? No
connection between our electrical switchgear and Foxboro!! 50 feet away from
our control room is where our 4 feeders come in. Beautiful Square D 4160 & 480
switchboards. Each has wonderful digital readouts of voltage, amperage, power
(in KW & KVa), powerfactor, totalizing, and a bunch of other electrical
gibberish. But it doesn't connect with our other system. All this stuff, and
I can't tell you what our KW/ton is!! We can't play with the systems and find
the most economical lineup on a real-time basis. It was in the original plans,
but was dropped as the costs for the plant ballooned (mostly due to stupid
planning and completely inadequate construction supervision) as a cost cutting
measure. And rumor has it that this may be corrected eventually, as now our
management seems to have an interest in the data, and has hopes that it could
help us operate more efficiently. Duh!! Many of us voiced that before the
cement was cured, but were pooh-poohed. It's not like any of us (the
operators) know what we're doing......
"Kevin" Nuke...@aol.com
Nuke622B
>common area lighting is being controlled by a separate system, vendor unknown
>(to me, anyway).
Forgot some things. In addition, the fire system is separate, but has the
appropiate contacts/controls to the Landis system to shut dampers, secure fans,
etc. And being a rather secure (hopefully) facility, the security system is
also separate, but does interface with some items, like allowing elevators to
move from secure to non-secure areas. And a quick note about the
elevator/escalator interface: it wasn't wired up as completely as it could be.
Although the capability is there, the only output from them is whether they
are in a failure mode, but not not what the failure is.
And to really make things confusing, not all of the HVAC is controlled from one
location. The central plant has a control room, and the terminal has a
separate control room for the building systems, both staffed independently, and
under completely different chains of command such that the first supervisor we
have in common is the head of utilities, 3 levels removed from the operators.
We do have a terminal in the central plant to monitor the Landis system, but
have no control over anything on it. Not that their location gives them any
benefits, they can't leave their hole, and have the same phones and radio we
do. Guess it's how we effectively utilize our personnel!
Hey Paul, can I have a job? This place is driving me crazy!!
"Kevin" Nuke...@aol.com
JSmart
ANYNET cost, maintenance etc?
My experience has these networks costing about 30 to 50% of the install
HVAC equipment itself! What do people do with it and what is the payback?
--
Marc Popek VP Engineering http://www.SmartSystemsintl.com
Smart Systems International 702-734-0044 Smar...@Worldnet.att.net
World's Smartest, Energy Saving, Automatic and Comfortable HVAC Controls
No Programming, No wiring, No royalty, SSDN All premises open architecture
network
Doug Hickman <doug...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<35cf9def...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
paul milligan
>Doug, what kinds of data would have value that would justify an Ethernet or
>ANYNET cost, maintenance etc?
>My experience has these networks costing about 30 to 50% of the install
>HVAC equipment itself! What do people do with it and what is the payback?
Maybe a few years of experience in the industry would help you
answer those.
You questions are the equivalent of someone asking 'Why get a
big expensive central chiller instead of some nice window units ?'.
Only those who only understand window units and have no experience
outside of them could ask such a thing.
Jeff Bowen
> And for my largest peeve: guess what we don't have??? And guess why not?? No
> connection between our electrical switchgear and Foxboro!! 50 feet away from
> our control room is where our 4 feeders come in. Beautiful Square D 4160 & 480
> switchboards. Each has wonderful digital readouts of voltage, amperage, power
> (in KW & KVa), powerfactor, totalizing, and a bunch of other electrical
> gibberish. But it doesn't connect with our other system. All this stuff, and
> I can't tell you what our KW/ton is!! We can't play with the systems and find
> the most economical lineup on a real-time basis. It was in the original plans,
> but was dropped as the costs for the plant ballooned (mostly due to stupid
> planning and completely inadequate construction supervision) as a cost cutting
> measure. And rumor has it that this may be corrected eventually, as now our
> management seems to have an interest in the data, and has hopes that it could
> help us operate more efficiently. Duh!! Many of us voiced that before the
> cement was cured, but were pooh-poohed. It's not like any of us (the
> operators) know what we're doing...
Kevin, check with your local Square D rep, the newest version of their
PowerLogic software and read in devices using Modbus RTU protocol. I
think that Foxboro may use this if so their data would be accessible to
the PowerLogic system. If not you might see if your circuit monitors on
the 4160volt gear can be fitted with an I/O module, then you could pulse
the KW (and/or other data) to the Foxboro system.
Just a thought.
Jeff
dough...@my-dejanews.com
I guess there are really two answers to that question.
There are really two different levels of network connection that I am talking
about.
One would be ethernet(anynet) connection of the front end workstations. Can a
user in building "B" log onto his computer and view what is going on in
building "A" without being directly connected to BAS network. With our system
(as with others I am sure), that is an option.
The other level would be field panel connections being done over ethernet. The
percieved issue here seems to be speed.
The problem that you can run into with the second option is whether or not you
are shareing that network with other systems (like regular network services on
your computer). If you are sharing the bandwith, then you have to be careful
about how much of it you are taking up and of course you have to get the
customers IS department involved. If there are problems it can be a nightmare
of finger pointing.
This (second item) is usually a spec item that someone has convinced the owner
/ consultant needs to be there. I am sure that there are some benifits to it,
but I just don't see them. If you are sharing the bandwith, then it could
theoretically slow things down just because of collisions on the net. If you
are not sharing it, then what difference does it make if it is ehternet or
"JohnsonNet" as long as it gets the information through quickly.
In article <01bdc579$bac18000$6d23400c@po>,
"JSmart" <Smar...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Doug, what kinds of data would have value that would justify an Ethernet or
> ANYNET cost, maintenance etc?
> My experience has these networks costing about 30 to 50% of the install
> HVAC equipment itself! What do people do with it and what is the payback?
>
> > >"JSmart" <Smar...@worldnet.att.net> pondered briefly, and wrote:
> > >
> > >>And whom can ever forget Smart Systems where you can actually get
> SOMETHING
> > >>FUNCTIONAL without an overpriced network all together!
> > >
> > > Ummmm...... I could ? If I stopped reading these groups, that
> > >is.....
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Paul
> > >
> > >I have employment openings in Raleigh/Durham, NC
> > >HVAC, controls, engineering, programming, CAD etc...
> > >Email me if interested
> > >>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~
> > >pjm@(remove this part )pobox.com
> > >My WWW site is at http://www.pobox.com/~pjm, featuring free HVAC
> software.
> > >The Sci.Engr.Heat-Vent-AC and Alt.HVAC FAQ is at
> http://www.elitesoft.com/sci.hvac/
> >
> >
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
paul milligan
>Yes, experience in the industry would be an advantage Paul, does that mean
>that the NG is only open to those with experience?
No. This is a place for all of us to learn, 'old farts' like
me and 'new fish' like you equally.
You would have to factor a knowledge of Mark Popeck into any
reading of my comment - the fact that he has only one purpose in life
- to sell thermostats. I believe he prefers it to sex. In fact, he
may consider it to _be_ sex. That caused the color of my response.
He is in fact exceptionally knowledgeable within an exceptionally
limited area, and every breath he takes is colored by his limited
breadth of knowledge, coupled with his absolute obsession with selling
thermostats for the company he works for.
>Questions which may seem mundane to the experienced often elude the
>inexperienced, without answers to those questions how can one expect to be
>effective and therefore become experienced themselves?
Ask away. If you are here to learn, then you are here for the
very purpose of this place.
>I am coming to the end of 2 years hard study, ready to meet the challenge
>that awaits me in the industry i would like to think that there are people
>who can steer me in the right direction if i need help.
There are many right here, 24/7.
paul milligan
>Excuse me Paul, but your reply is total Bullshit!
At least I wasn't trying to sell thermostats.
>The network can have no intrinsic value, if it offers no real and
>significant economic benefit!
What's your point ?
>is the best use (or similar) example then it is logical that expensive
>networks have no clear economic justification and are a kind of hoax.
I'm really not interested in playing cheap sematic trickster
with you. You are relatively unarmed, and present no challenge.
>contractor rips it out of there!) cost about $1500 per room extra. Well
>they use this to,.... get this.. turn on the room at check in!
So, you condemn all networks and sophisticated controls
because of one example you see as wasteful ?
>= to ZERO . what A LAME USE OF THE NETWORK!~ Oh yes the engineers can look
>at the temperature in room 206.... oh that has value!
Used properly, yes it does.
>the basement and extracted time temp data. Well there are so many data drop
>out that getting good curve is impossible and the sensors in the room and
>or the network conversion yields un calibrated data!
Then they have installation or design or user education
problems.
Mark Hill
paul milligan wrote in message <35d1e39c....@news.concentric.net>...
> Maybe a few years of experience in the industry would help you
>answer those.
>
> You questions are the equivalent of someone asking 'Why get a
>big expensive central chiller instead of some nice window units ?'.
>Only those who only understand window units and have no experience
>outside of them could ask such a thing.
>
>
>
>Paul
>
Yes, experience in the industry would be an advantage Paul, does that mean
that the NG is only open to those with experience?
Questions which may seem mundane to the experienced often elude the
inexperienced, without answers to those questions how can one expect to be
effective and therefore become experienced themselves?
I am coming to the end of 2 years hard study, ready to meet the challenge
that awaits me in the industry i would like to think that there are people
who can steer me in the right direction if i need help.
Yours, without experience,
Mark
Mark Hill
JSmart
are well known, and there are ample reasons and economics based decisions
supporting both!
The network can have no intrinsic value, if it offers no real and
significant economic benefit!
network is in fact just marketing bullshit, and the engineers think it's
cool to be able to see the room temperature across a campus! And, if that
is the best use (or similar) example then it is logical that expensive
networks have no clear economic justification and are a kind of hoax.
My detailed example, was in fact the new towers of xxxxx xxxxxx hotel and
casino. The fancoils were about $2400 installed (in about 1500 rooms) and
the BOZONET ( I wont embarrass the current product until the mechanical
contractor rips it out of there!) cost about $1500 per room extra. Well
they use this to,.... get this.. turn on the room at check in! well two
things happen, the recovery time is totally random and often long and
generates complaints, and after the guest check in the HVAC runs and runs
not matter what else happens, so the payback in terms of energy savings is
= to ZERO . what A LAME USE OF THE NETWORK!~ Oh yes the engineers can look
at the temperature in room 206.... oh that has value! and they can take
data for example when they had long recovery times they wanted to validate
the recovery time so they peeked and poked at the window in the computer in
the basement and extracted time temp data. Well there are so many data drop
out that getting good curve is impossible and the sensors in the room and
or the network conversion yields un calibrated data! What an example of a
piece of shit with no eceonomic value. We all suffer whenthis happens as it
taints "automation and adaptive controls!
BTW the last time I saw the network computer it had a plastic cover on it,
it was turned off, and collecting dust!
So again what is the economic justification for a control network that adds
30 to 50% to the costs of basic HVAC???
Respectfully,
Marc
paul milligan <pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in article
<35d1e39c....@news.concentric.net>...
> "JSmart" <Smar...@worldnet.att.net> pondered briefly, and wrote:
>
> >Doug, what kinds of data would have value that would justify an Ethernet
or
> >ANYNET cost, maintenance etc?
> >My experience has these networks costing about 30 to 50% of the install
> >HVAC equipment itself! What do people do with it and what is the
payback?
>
> Maybe a few years of experience in the industry would help you
> answer those.
>
> You questions are the equivalent of someone asking 'Why get a
> big expensive central chiller instead of some nice window units ?'.
> Only those who only understand window units and have no experience
> outside of them could ask such a thing.
>
>
>
> Paul
>
JSmart
Thank you for the reply.
I understand the interconnectivity issue.
Please tell me what data has value to justify the expense and maintenance
of such a campus wide network??
--
Marc Popek VP Engineering http://www.SmartSystemsintl.com
Smart Systems International 702-734-0044 Smar...@Worldnet.att.net
World's Smartest, Energy Saving, Automatic and Comfortable HVAC Controls
No Programming, No wiring, No royalty, SSDN All premises open architecture
network
dough...@my-dejanews.com wrote in article
<6qslgf$2v4$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
Don Winston
>
>Now for Trane. Seems Trane and Foxboro don't like to talk to each other, so we
>ended up with Summit just to talk to our chillers! All Foxboro can do to them
>is turn them on and off. And each chiller has two sets of instrumentation
>hanging off of them, one for Summit, the other for Foxboro. Our controls guy
>has rigged some 4-20ma signals from Summit to Foxboro to give us some
>additional indications on our Foxboro screens so we can get a better picture,
>but it still takes two PC's to actually provide a complete and total operator
>interface. So I don't have that much experience with the system as it doesn't
>do much for us, but it seems to be a nice system.
My experience with Trane is that Trane doesn't like anybody to talk to
their chillers or AC units. (of course this is several years old)
>
>And for my largest peeve: guess what we don't have??? And guess why not?? No
>connection between our electrical switchgear and Foxboro!! 50 feet away from
>our control room is where our 4 feeders come in. Beautiful Square D 4160 & 480
>switchboards. Each has wonderful digital readouts of voltage, amperage, power
>(in KW & KVa), powerfactor, totalizing, and a bunch of other electrical
>gibberish. But it doesn't connect with our other system. All this stuff, and
>I can't tell you what our KW/ton is!! We can't play with the systems and find
>the most economical lineup on a real-time basis. It was in the original plans,
>but was dropped as the costs for the plant ballooned (mostly due to stupid
>planning and completely inadequate construction supervision) as a cost cutting
>measure. And rumor has it that this may be corrected eventually, as now our
>management seems to have an interest in the data, and has hopes that it could
>help us operate more efficiently. Duh!! Many of us voiced that before the
>cement was cured, but were pooh-poohed. It's not like any of us (the
>operators) know what we're doing......
>
Rule # 10: "Value Engineering" is usually neither.
Donald J. Winston, PE <dwin...@erols.com>
Mechanical Solutions
Great Neck, NY
Nuke622B
>PowerLogic software and read in devices using Modbus RTU protocol. I
>think that Foxboro may use this if so their data would be accessible to
>the PowerLogic system.
I do believe that this is what they are planning to do. I know its possibe,
I'm just hoping they don't try to reinvent the wheel and spec the proper
solution right out of the bid package.
They're gonna wish they bought the software, modules, conduit, and cabling the
first time.
"Kevin" Nuke...@aol.com
john williamson
I think you can make a legitimate point about some networks and how they
are applied, but to condemn all is going too far. Thousands of networks
exist out there and most of them are doing a fine job of controlling
using shared information and saving energy using shared information.
You site the engineers looking at room temps as being wastefull, other
data can be available that the engineers can observe and allow them to
make decisions about their equipment. If applied correctly, the
information on the network can greatly help in troubleshooting problems
with the equipment and allow more efficient and quick repair.
A scan of the screens of a computer in a facility can give a very quick
understanding of what is going on, otherwise to get this information
could require many manhours. This information can be critical in the
operation of the facility.
I don't think you need to say "never", its just hurts your credibility.
John W
gary
>>significant economic benefit!
>
Hummm... seems to me they said the samething when they installed a large
scale "office" network in our workspace. Now I can share information with
other users, store data in one central spot, use any of the network
printers, logon from any remote workstation, dial into the network from home
to access information, use a single PC to backup information, use a single
CD ROM to share info across the network, send messages to other PCs, use a
WEB based system to access critical/important information, update all the
remote PCs from a central location...
The technology is there, it works and will find its way into the operations
of buildings. Does it offer value, it sure does...
JSmart
Thank you for the civl reply.
I did not say never use a network! I merely asked someone to provide an
economic based rationalization for anynet in a HVAC system. I would like
to know some of the cost and installation, continuing cost, and
operational/maintenance cost, and I would like to balance this against the
value . The value can be intrinsic or non-tangible, but please describe
more than, "its neat"
or rather than some who say" oh if you were smart enough you would know" as
that is bullshit and this we all know!
So what does"saving energy" "using shared information mean? How much
energy? By what mechanism?
For example, if say the in-room thermostat had real large number, you could
find the temperaute in a room, for the price of a phone call. You would
call, ask the humans if they were comfortable, and the temp, they would
tell you yes or no and the number on the wall, cost for a 2 minute
interchange at 60/hour (loaded rate) 2 dollars . So if a network costs say
1,500,000 for 1000 nodes. you need to make 750,000 inquiry to be equal to
the cost of the network. at a 10% query rate per day say it takes 7500 days
to break even, or 20 years. John, im not buying in yet, but I am malleable
with reason.
--
Marc Popek VP Engineering http://www.SmartSystemsintl.com
Smart Systems International 702-734-0044 Smar...@Worldnet.att.net
World's Smartest, Energy Saving, Automatic and Comfortable HVAC Controls
No Programming, No wiring, No royalty, SSDN All premises open architecture
network
john williamson <john...@webtv.net> wrote in article
<14106-35...@newsd-123.bryant.webtv.net>...
JSmart
You are to be commended for completing your course of study! And, you
should continue to increase your knowledge, for it will be a source of
wisdom and provide for you to figure things out for yourself. Asking
questions and reviewing the wide variety of response is a start. Then it is
time to use the "tools" in your analytical brain and pencil and paper to
figure this stuff out. never be a follower and accept on face value,
rather figure it out! And, even if 90% of a group believe something is
right it doesn't necessarily make it so!
Experience is good but doesn't replace reason. As you can see here Paul
claims to have twenty years experience yet is unable to provide a simple
(or any) answer to a reasonable question. The problem with relying on only
experience is that you can have years of experience or the same years ,
twenty time it apparently makes a difference!
Mark, feel free to ask away, and question the unclear,
And for Paul, dont sell in the NG (that Paul has got done real good, it's
really all he does!)
--
Marc Popek VP Engineering http://www.SmartSystemsintl.com
Smart Systems International 702-734-0044 Smar...@Worldnet.att.net
World's Smartest, Energy Saving, Automatic and Comfortable HVAC Controls
No Programming, No wiring, No royalty, SSDN All premises open architecture
network
PS Yes I do sell thermostats, I think of them as automated solutions, and I
can substantiate my claims, clearly!
JSmart
So you have resorted to personal attacks to bolster your argument! Very
nice for the NG "moderator" to go un-civil!
So, I take it that you cannot offer us simpletons a concrete answer using
your wealth of experience. Try to organize your thoughts, and present a
real argument, that suggests an economic justification for the ANYNET, as
it relates to HVAC control, comfort, energysavings, verification!
Frankly, I am surprised and disappointed as I though that you were the best
person to add some real value to the utility of a network. perhaps we over
estimate the value of experience over intellect and reason?
Marc Popek VP Engineering http://www.SmartSystemsintl.com
Smart Systems International 702-734-0044 Smar...@Worldnet.att.net
World's Smartest, Energy Saving, Automatic and Comfortable HVAC Controls
No Programming, No wiring, No royalty, SSDN All premises open architecture
network
----------
> From: paul milligan <pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com>
> Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
> Subject: Re: Experience
> Date: Wednesday, August 12, 1998 6:15 PM
>
> "Mark Hill" <n...@this.lifetime> pondered briefly, and wrote:
>
> >Yes, experience in the industry would be an advantage Paul, does that
mean
> >that the NG is only open to those with experience?
>
> No. This is a place for all of us to learn, 'old farts' like
> me and 'new fish' like you equally.
>
> You would have to factor a knowledge of Mark Popeck into any
> reading of my comment - the fact that he has only one purpose in life
> - to sell thermostats. I believe he prefers it to sex. In fact, he
> may consider it to _be_ sex.
useless dribble snipped
JSmart
I good example, of the value of a network inside the office to share data,
and applications. You can also share printers modems this way too!
I the HVAC world I am not sure there is any utility that is justifiable in
economic terms! Down south they call it a "pig in a poke". I have seen
several bad examples, of the utilization of the networks, and I have seen a
great amount of energy spent discussing the merits of the various
"ANYNETS". These discussions focus on the net itself and not the utility,
For example while bandwidth is important as aparameter, it is more
important to match the bandwidth to the class of problems you are trying to
solve. As an example, 1 600 room building does it need 1mb Ethernet, 10 Mb
ethernet,or even 100 Mb fiber backbone.........
Hell if you step back from the net magic you may discover the valuable
information at real-world uses would have an 14,4 kB POTS network free and
clear 99% of the time. And, one might discover that no net is required at
all.
So Gary, what ideas would there be to extend the utility we all see in an
office situation and how would that relate to an HVAC example?
--
Marc Popek VP Engineering http://www.SmartSystemsintl.com
Smart Systems International 702-734-0044 Smar...@Worldnet.att.net
World's Smartest, Energy Saving, Automatic and Comfortable HVAC Controls
No Programming, No wiring, No royalty, SSDN All premises open architecture
network
gary <ga...@HOLDtheSPAMlandis.com> wrote in article
<P9CA1.427$F11.3...@news.rdc1.nj.home.com>...
Buzz Cut
paul milligan wrote in message <35d23d0b...@news.concentric.net>...
>
> You would have to factor a knowledge of Mark Popeck
Man, you don't miss a trick, do you?
Dave
--------- Please remove anti-spam from my address to reply.
paul milligan
>Mark, feel free to ask away, and question the unclear,
>And for Paul, dont sell in the NG (that Paul has got done real good, it's
>really all he does!)
Kiss my ass, Popeck. That's about all the argument you're
worth to me, and all you can comprehend.
paul milligan
>For example, if say the in-room thermostat had real large number, you could
>find the temperaute in a room, for the price of a phone call. You would
>call, ask the humans if they were comfortable, and the temp, they would
>tell you yes or no and the number on the wall,
Utterly assinine.
Mark Hill
paul milligan wrote in message <35d1e39c....@news.concentric.net>...
> Maybe a few years of experience in the industry would help you
>answer those.
>
> You questions are the equivalent of someone asking 'Why get a
>big expensive central chiller instead of some nice window units ?'.
>Only those who only understand window units and have no experience
>outside of them could ask such a thing.
>
>
>
>Paul
>
Yes, experience in the industry would be an advantage Paul, does that mean
that the NG is only open to those with experience?
Questions which may seem mundane to the experienced often elude the
Mark Hill
JSmart
line of crap!
Nice detail and support of your position!
paul milligan <pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in article
<35d68935...@news.concentric.net>...
JSmart
whats up? You have taken this to heart, and that was not my intention, at
all. You do a fine job moderating the NG, and I commend you for that.
Your answers here, and your resorting to .... epitaphs, is not right, and
it is not you!
Lets just leave this thread where it is.
"The ANYNET networks have some utitliy for sharing data, CD-roms, and
applications, and their utility for HVAC is not economically justifiable,
but all the experienced HVAC guys like them. They love them, and any attack
on them is morally wrong. networks are good for our...
children, save the children
networks , will makes information available to other on other networks and
that is good!"
Marc
paul milligan <pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in article
<35d588c3...@news.concentric.net>...
> "JSmart" <Smar...@worldnet.att.net> pondered briefly, and wrote:
>
> >Mark, feel free to ask away, and question the unclear,
> >And for Paul, dont sell in the NG (that Paul has got done real good,
it's
> >really all he does!)
>
> Kiss my ass, Popeck. That's about all the argument you're
> worth to me, and all you can comprehend.
>
>
>
paul milligan
>Lets just leave this thread where it is.
Stop advertising here, regardless of ineffective camoflauge of
same, and your wish is granted.
paul milligan
>So you think it's worth the 1,5 million dollars? Only if you sold that
>line of crap!
You figure they got a bunch of dinky little room thermostats
for that ? You think some customer forked over 1.5 for that ? You
are clueless.
I'm involved in several projects of that order right now, and
trust me, if the customer gets some little shit thermostats, you will
see the puff of smoke where my ass used to be.
D.M.
If you can't ask or admit your weaknesses then you'll never grow.
This NG is a great place to expand your knowledge and one way to learn is by
mistakes whether there yours or someone else's.
Dave
Mark Hill wrote in message <6r4ke7$ep1$1...@nclient1-gui.server.virgin.net>...
paul milligan
>>I good example, of the value of a network inside the office to share data,
>>and applications. You can also share printers modems this way too!
>
>
>>what ideas would there be to extend the utility we all see in an
>>office situation and how would that relate to an HVAC example?
Over 400 of my customers have instant access to me. Pick up
the phone and ask for tech support, you get me. I can call into their
system and help them get it working again, whether it be a blown AHU
motor, a cooling tower where their maintenance guy shut the water off,
a condensing unit that's off on high head, whatever.
Our many field techs have that same access to me. Whether it
be a second opinion on what a system is doing, or simply needing a
1,000 ton chiller ramped up or down so they can test it, I'm there on
the job with them, at the other end of the telephone by voice, and
watching the system with them on my computer, watching the whole
building / facility, having all the performance data of that system,
real time live update, in front of me.
Value of that ? I leave some questions to the reader.
Jason McGehee
were keeping records and trend data is critical of daily operation. One
multi campus facility has a DDC system that trends over 100 rooms for
temperatures, pressures, and humidity conditions. We record this data every
5 minutes and store it on a hard drive. This data can be retrieved very
easily but researchers who need to know the conditions of there room during
a certain time period of testing there experiments. The systems also
monitors over 100 pieces of equipment - freezers, warm rooms, incubators,
etc. If they go into alarm it pages the on call maintenance mechanic. The
network is very reliable and runs on the IS department TCP/IP Ethernet- no
problems.
gary
>and applications. You can also share printers modems this way too!
>what ideas would there be to extend the utility we all see in an
>office situation and how would that relate to an HVAC example?
>
Well, since the cost of implementing a network is so inexpensive the cost
justification is really not an issue, IMHO. It seems that quite a few DDC
vendors are selling systems that are TCP/IP compatible so the cost for the
S/W is generally already in the cost of the job. Running the cable (or
simply) using the existing building infrastructure network is not that big
of a deal. The Ethernet cards are a small cost too.
The over all concept is not how much will a network cost vs.. what it will
save, but will it allow a user easier, faster and better access into his
system and allow him better usage of the information available in his
system...
paul milligan
>So you use a phone line to a modem based HVAC control and then is it TCP/IP
>or do you have to jump on another information highway, and have to deal
>with specialized communications links?
TCP/IP, RS-485, Ethernet ( both dedicated and
facility-wide-general-purpose trunk ), and others.
> Are these 400 at all the same> is
>there a clear numerical leader? is there one you prefer?
The ones with the large knock...oh, nevermind.,
Paul
paul milligan
>You say your costomers have access to you.
Yes
>Are they all using J.C Metasys?
None at all. In fact, we specialize in ripping Metasys
systems out :-)
>If so how do they like it?
>How do you like it?
>what do you think of the dx-9100's?
See above ( truthful ) one-liner :-)
Jason McGehee
However, I can honestly say that the DX-9100 is a very reliable piece of
equipment. The controller is very flexible, especially in applications were
a large control panels are not necessary and small application specific
controller can cut the tab. Example Cooling Towers, small hot water, chilled
water, or steam systems, and complex AHUs. The DX-9100 models itself after
industry PLC controllers rather than traditional HVAC controllers. It uses
International standards for I/O and user interface. As with any HVAC
program there is a learning curve involved with programming them.
As far as Metasys is concern. It is good, reliable system as long as it is
installed and configured properly by confident people. Our customers seem
to like Metasys - many have converted from other system manufactures. Most
of the time people the customers convert to a different system because the
company installing and servicing performed improperly, not the system.
this is a quote from alt.hvac requarding Metasys and DX-9100s
From public News Group alt.hvac
John M. Nemmers <Tent...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
<6qo9m4$l...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>...
> I've been using a Johnson Metasys network for 3 years now, never had a
> device fail yet. We have over
> 100 DX-9100 controllers networked on 3 NCM-300 network controllers. Runs
our
> entire Semiconductor
> Manufacturing facility here in Minnesota. SECRET IS to keep programs
SIMPLE.
> Don't know how many
> Johnson tech written programs I've re-wrote and simlified. We have to keep
> the fab environment at +- .5
> degrees and the DX-9100 performs flawlessly. I'ts flexible to use for
> anything from HVAC to alarms, and
> even process control. Can't say enough about it.
>
> John
>
> Gsnowski wrote in message
> <199808091227...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> >I'm in a position to select a Building Management System for my 250,000
sq
> ft
> >facility during the next week. All the controls people are saying that
> their
> >systems are the best...They can't all be. Who's the best?
>
>
Jason McGehee
an International Industry Standard for networking computers. Therefore
information on TCP/IP and Ethernet is available. Everything from basic to
advanced integral workings of TCP/IP. Go to a local college and you can
find classes on TCP/IP. Go to a local technical book store and you will
find lots of documentation written on this subject. You can find many
networking experts in the area of Ethernet and TCP/IP networking. Most
hardware and software being manufactured today can support TCP/IP.
Buildings and Campuses are being wired with Ethernet. Why not use what is
available, standard and relatively easy to configure and maintain. Also
with such a widely used industry standard, it is likely that the next
networking protocol that will replace TCP/IP will be compatible with TCP/IP
or offer an easy, inexpensive upgrade path to the next networking protocol.
I am a pro standards person I like to use as much Industry Standard
equipment as possible - as long as it is cost effective. Ethernet can run
on Fiber Optics, TSP, Coax, and over phone lines. What is really cool that
2 or more control systems can share the same Ethernet. This can be good if
you have applications were you need to mix and match control systems or
retrofit an existing control system over time.
I am waiting for a control system manufacture to produce an interface to
their controllers with a Web Browser - I think everyone missed the standard
web interface with the new batch of graphical interfaces coming out.
Instead of plugging into a controller and getting a funky text screen or
having to have a laptop with some $$$$ graphical interface software program
on it and the maintenance involved with keeping the graphics current on the
laptop. Have a laptop of even a Windows CE device with a web browser that
plug into the controller and the operator can request a graphic from a
server and view it locally at the controller.
paul milligan
wrote:
>I am waiting for a control system manufacture to produce an interface to
>their controllers with a Web Browser -
I haven't had a chance to get my mitts on it much yet, but I
think the new Andover Continuum will do everything you described. ( we
have one in the shop, I just don't have time to play with it... )
john williamson
I believe that was directed to me, but your response just came up and
you posted it the 14th, its the 20th now. I have not seen the post from
Marc that you refer to, it has not come up for me.
You did a good job responding to it, if it comes up I may be able to
respond to some of marc's questions.
John W
Bob Pietrangelo
he were I am pretty sure none of your advertisements or attacks upon him would
ever make it to my screen. All he has done is ask you to follow the rules of
the charter, which 99% of us do. You continually plug your own product for
sale. I have never read any useful information from you. I have never seen
you post a reply to someonr without plugging your product or attacking Mr.
Milligan. I'm sorry but your smart stat is not the answer to every t'stat
related post. Now can you please stop your bullshit and let us discuss HVAC
issues. I've been sitting here in the wings for a while. You were asked on
too numerous of occasions to stop your advertising, no matter how you disguise
it, and when Paul finally put his foot down you cop an attitude. He reacts for
all of us not for himself.
Bob P.
JSmart wrote:
> Paul,
>
> So you have resorted to personal attacks to bolster your argument! Very
> nice for the NG "moderator" to go un-civil!
> So, I take it that you cannot offer us simpletons a concrete answer using
> your wealth of experience. Try to organize your thoughts, and present a
> real argument, that suggests an economic justification for the ANYNET, as
> it relates to HVAC control, comfort, energysavings, verification!
>
> Frankly, I am surprised and disappointed as I though that you were the best
> person to add some real value to the utility of a network. perhaps we over
> estimate the value of experience over intellect and reason?
> Marc Popek VP Engineering http://www.SmartSystemsintl.com
> Smart Systems International 702-734-0044 Smar...@Worldnet.att.net
> World's Smartest, Energy Saving, Automatic and Comfortable HVAC Controls
> No Programming, No wiring, No royalty, SSDN All premises open architecture
> network
>
> ----------
> > From: paul milligan <pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com>
> > Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
> > Subject: Re: Experience
> > Date: Wednesday, August 12, 1998 6:15 PM
> >
> > "Mark Hill" <n...@this.lifetime> pondered briefly, and wrote:
> >
> > >Yes, experience in the industry would be an advantage Paul, does that
> mean
> > >that the NG is only open to those with experience?
> >
Robert Poole
allow you to
Connect the Metasys N1 bus Via Ethernet to an Intranet or Internet. Anyone
with access to
that Intranet or Internet can use IE4 or Netscape4 to log in with a UserID
and Password and the
Password level will allow you to Display only or command objects depending
on the password
level. It does not have all the features that the complete Metasys PMI has
but does allow
basic monitoring and commands/adjustments from within a web browser.
There are already sites that have Johnson Controls Companion systems on the
Internet but to access them
you have to use a Telnet terminal and you get the same screen that you would
if you were directly
connected. They are using a RS232 to TCP/IP converter and assigning it a
unique IP address
which the Telnet terminal can address. This way you could have several
companion systems
open in several windows at the same time via the Internet.
paul milligan wrote in message <35dc007e...@news.concentric.net>...
D.M.
and the pros & cons of the two systems
Companion and Metasys I know the metasys system will be using DX9100 and
NCM350. The Companion will use UNT's. Hope you can shine some light on
this Thanks Dave
Robert Poole wrote in message <6t2evu$4...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>...
Jason McGehee
D.M.
Jason McGehee wrote in message <6t60n9$607$1...@excalibur.flash.net>...
mark schofield
D.M. <ra...@kellnet.com> wrote in article
<og9J1.267$d1.31...@iagnews.iagnet.net>...
> Hi you seem to now a lot about J.C systems. Can you tell me the
difference
> and the pros & cons of the two systems
> Companion and Metasys I know the metasys system will be using DX9100 and
> NCM350. The Companion will use UNT's. Hope you can shine some light on
> this Thanks Dave
Metasys costs alot more, and can do alot more, than Companion which is a
low end entry level FMS. It does basic monitoring, scheduling, alarms,
holidays, ect. I think that the various Johnson Controls controlers like
the DX9100 or the Variable Air Volume or Air Handeling Unit can be
networked to either Matasys or Companion. Metasys is alot more
sophistcated.
D.M.
pick?
you said metasys can do much more like what?
mark schofield wrote in message <01bddc65$214f61a0$d3214f0c@default>...
Jason McGehee
Companion was developed for small building applications up to 800 points /
150 Controllers. Most JCI standalone controllers can be used on the
Companion - UNT, AHUs, DX-9100, VAV, Integrator, XT-9100s,etc.Companion can
be upgraded to Metasys Network if you need the networking capabilities.
Metasys Network offers the full features and benefits of a large scale,
powerful DDC system. Powerful communication protocols, open system
protocols, multiple Operator Workstations, etc, advanced alarming, system
wide programming and message routing.
Both systems have energy management functions, totalization, trending,
alarming, and remote access. All Metasys Application Specific Controllers,
DX-9100 programmable controls, and N2 devices and integrators are supported
on both systems.
Companion fits simple applications small buildings, schools, while Metasys
handles simple applications plus complex systems. Large Networks, campuses,
universities, Area Wide Networks, etc.
Metasys Network http://www.johnsoncontrols.com/Metasys/sysarch_na.htm
Companion http://www.jci.com/cg-catalog/fms/companion/1928100/doc_home.htm
Johnson Controls Control Group http://www.jci.com/cg