Landscape Architects in the engineering business

[Thomas S. Blue]

jmcd...@ix.netcom.com(John M. McDowell ) wrote:

>A colleague started talking today about the activities of Landscape
>Architects (LAs) in North Carolina. Here, the LAs can seal plans which
>include grading, drainage and subdivision roadway alignments.

>It has been my experience that most LAs rally do not have the
>background to give appropriate conisderation to the nuances of these
>design activities. therefore, they often look to the civil engineer to
>"bail them out."

>My colleague wants to take issue with the State Board of Registration
>on this matter. Of course, since it crosses Board boundaries, the
>state's Attorney General's office may need to get involved. I have to
>agree with him. This is an example of how CEs have lost respect in
>their community by allowing other professions to encroach upon and
>trivialize our industry.

>I'd like some feedback on whether LAs can perform this kind of work in
>other parts of the USA and the world. Also, what are the requirements
>for sitting for the civil PE exam in other places. In NC, with a BS
>degree (any subject) and eight years of related experience (along with
>5 poeople willing to sell out, including at least 3 PEs) it appears
>that you can take the PE exam. Can anyone tell me about the education
>requirements of LAs, in terms of engineering-related course work?

>JMM

John,

I have to agree with you on a few points. Landscape architects (LAs)
usually do not have the quantitative skills required to produce
quality storm water designs. However, registered land surveyors (RLSs)
are also given the privilege of designing storm water control systems
as they pertain to a subdivision they are designing. Most RLSs have
very little education in this area. Their designs are often as bad as
LAs.

The sad fact is, however, the general statutes in North Carolina
(other places too I suspect) allow LAs to design and seal these plans.
In fact, the statutes on LAs (enacted on Jan 1, 1970) defines
"Landscape Architect" and "Landscape Architecture" as follows:

____________

"Landscape architect" shall mean a person who, on the basis of
demonstrated knowledge acquired by professional education or practical
experience, or both, has been granted, and holds a current certificate
entitling him to use the title "landscape architects" in North
Carolina under the authority of this Chapter.

"Landscape architecture", or the "practice of landscape architecture"
shall mean the preparation of plans and specifications and supervising
the execution of projects involving the arranging of land and the
elements used thereon for public and private use and enjoyment,
embracing drainage, soil conservation, grading and planting plans and
erosion control, in accordance with the accepted professional
standards of public health, safety and welfare.
____________

I suspect this legislation was pushed through with some help from the
environmental movement of the late 1960's and early 1970's. At that
time (and today as well) engineers are not known as individuals who,
on average, care for the well being of the environment. I find most
LAs to lack basic skills needed to fulfill their "professional
description" and most also seem to be quite cocky! However, I find
this no worse than PEs (and RLSs) who fully have the education and
capability to produce good designs relating to grading, storm
drainage, and erosion control but refuse to do so. Often this stems
from PEs "caving in" to clients. I feel an engineer's "can do"
attitude often means "will pander to the client".

The landscape architecture programs I have seen simply do not provide
a sufficient background in hydraulics and hydrology (and some related
design subjects) for LAs to produce good storm drainage and erosion
control plans. On the other hand, most civil engineers and RLSs have
NO background in soil fertility, plant propagation, or vegetative
cover selection. These are every bit as important as hydrology and
hydraulics in erosion control design (though often not as important in
storm water quantity control - but certainly for storm water quality
control).

Let's face it, the one discipline trained to do these designs properly
are agricultural engineers (AgEs) who specialized in soil and water
conservation. Try looking through NCSU's (since you are from NC)
undergraduate (or graduate) catalog at their course outline. You will
see what I mean. Consulting engineering firms should look to hire AgEs
over LAs for these duties. (Consulting engineering firms do hire LAs.)

LAs often do a lot of subdivision and site layout. This has been one
of the primary functions of RLSs since Egyptian times (I refer to the
placement and location of property lines)! LAs can lay out lot
arrangements for subdivisions, but they must have a RLS perform all
the necessary computations for placing monumentation on the land and
produce a map for legal recordation of the subdivision plat by the
Register of Deeds.

Regardless of their educational shortcomings, most LAs are very good
with public relations and selling their services to an ignorant
public. The PEs and RLSs that I usually see (and work with) don’t have
the personalities to do this. They usually gripe about what LAs do or
don’t do (this is not directed at you) , but they put foward nothing
to educate their clients and the public in general. In the next year
to year and a half I will be combining three firms together (one is a
land surveying / land planning firm, one is an environmental
consulting firm, and the other is an engineering firm). One of my
first orders of business will be to educate our clients and the
general public about the services we offer, the education and training
needed to properly provide these services, and what professions do and
do not have these educational and training backgrounds. How whill I do
this? Pamplets in the lobby, open discussions, newsletters, our W3
site will all help, but attitude and competence are the best tools.

TSBlue
http://longleaf.com
tsb...@longleaf.com

(BTW: I will be taking the SIT, the PE, the RLS, the CWS, and the LA
exam all within the next year an a half.)