Foreign Student Becomes U.S. President
knews4...@yahoo.com
It's true.
You have been lied to.
The President is a fraud.
http://rense.com/general86/dwnto.htm
AllYou!
news:46da1afb-8ac1-47fc...@g15g2000pra.googlegroups.com,
knews4...@yahoo.com <knews4...@yahoo.com> mused:
The President is misguided, and entirely wrong-headed on almost
every issue of any significance, and I wish like hell that he had
never become President. But as much damage as I believe that his
policies will do this country, he's much less a fraud that the vast
majority of other politicians, and he's doing exactly what he said
he would do in the campaign, and he's not any sort of an
embarrassment to this country, and he's doing what he believes, in
his heart, is the right thing. All in all, we could do one hell of
a lot worse, and I have no problem whatsoever calling him MY
President.
Any assertions that he's a fraud show nothing but ignorance.
Know
at least he isn't one of those arab jew terrorists that planned the
911 attacks with George Bush Jr.....
wait - he's muslim and controls the Federal Reserve so perhaps he did
have something to do with it, at the very least he piloted one of the
planes (and bailed out)
edi...@netpath.net
now are fed up with his failure to actually deliver any real benefit -
and, in fact, not even including health benefits in his (claimed)
equalizing things for same-sex partners of federal employees.
http://www.Internet-Gun-Show.com - your source for hard-to-find stuff!
Paul Thomas, CPA
Strabo
>
> http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/occidental.asp
>
> What a fucking putz.
>
From Snopes
--------------------------
Occidental College
Claim: Recently released records document that Barack Obama received
college financial aid in the U.S. as a "foreign student from Indonesia."
FALSE
...
Origins: As the April 1, 2009, dateline on this article indicates,
this piece originated as a April Fool's joke playing on unsubstantiated
rumors that President Barack Obama is not a native-born citizen of the
United States (and thus not eligible to hold the office of President of
the United States). Even without the tell-tale dateline, however,
several indicators give away this item as hoax:
* The article is tagged "AP," signifying it came from the Associated
Press news agency, but the writing does not at all fit the standard
Associated Press stylebook guidelines.
* Obama attended Occidental College in California for two years as
an undergraduate from 1979-81 under his birth name of Barack Obama, not
as "Barry Soetoro" (the latter is the surname of his Indonesian
stepfather, Lolo Soetoro).
* Fulbright scholarships for foreign students are coordinated
through the American Indonesian Exchange Foundation (AMINEF), which does
not not fund Indonesians for undergraduate study in the United States
(only for master's or doctorate programs).
* Occidental College has neither released, nor been ordered to
release, Barack Obama's student records.
* Neither Britain's Daily Mail nor any other UK newspaper has
published a front-page article entitled "Obama Eligibility Questioned"
in 2009, nor has any such newspaper published an article consisting of
the text reproduced above.
* Leo Donofrio's lawsuit challenging Barack Obama's eligibility for
the presidency was denied a hearing by the Supreme Court of New Jersey
back in December 2008. It has not been taken up by the U.S. Supreme
Court.
--------------------------------
Haphazard wordplay evasions aside, various entities funded Obama
through Occidental, Columbia and Harvard.
Let's see the records.
age...@justicespammail.com
wrote:
Yep, they did. Most people who aren't kooks like you call them
government backed student loans.
"It wasn't until Barack Obama wrote a pair of best-selling books that
he and his wife escaped their student loan debt, an experience
Michelle Obama said Tuesday helps the couple understand everyday
challenges better than policymakers in Washington."
"Obama told the crowd that when she and her husband left law school,
the monthly payments on their school loan debt was more than their
monthly mortgage payment. She said they only got out of that debt when
Barack Obama wrote his two books, "The Audacity of Hope" and "Dreams
from My Father." "
HH&C
> Innews:46da1afb-8ac1-47fc...@g15g2000pra.googlegroups.com,
> knews4u2c...@yahoo.com <knews4u2c...@yahoo.com> mused:
>
> > Believe it.
> > It's true.
> > You have been lied to.
> > The President is a fraud.
> >http://rense.com/general86/dwnto.htm
>
> The President is misguided, and entirely wrong-headed on almost
> every issue of any significance, and I wish like hell that he had
> never become President. But as much damage as I believe that his
> policies will do this country, he's much less a fraud that the vast
> majority of other politicians, and he's doing exactly what he said
> he would do in the campaign,
Yeh. Tell that to the reservists and the national guardsmen in Iraq.
> and he's not any sort of an
> embarrassment to this country,
Damn! I just blew natty light all over the monitor...
> and he's doing what he believes, in his heart, is the right thing.
So did the last president. See where that got him?
> All in all, we could do one hell of a lot worse,
I'm going to have to "strenuously" object.
> and I have no problem whatsoever calling him MY
> President.
And when he recalls me to active duty, I will call him my commander in
chief.
> Any assertions that he's a fraud show nothing but ignorance...
Who wrote his books?
HH&C
> On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 19:55:32 -0400, Strabo <str...@flashlight.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >Dikfer wrote:
>
> "It wasn't until Barack Obama wrote a pair of best-selling books that
> he and his wife escaped their student loan debt, an experience
> Michelle Obama said Tuesday helps the couple understand everyday
> challenges better than policymakers in Washington."
But who wrote the books?
> "Obama told the crowd that when she and her husband left law school,
> the monthly payments on their school loan debt was more than their
> monthly mortgage payment. She said they only got out of that debt when
> Barack Obama wrote his two books, "The Audacity of Hope" and "Dreams
> from My Father." "- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
MEG
Alright, for proof we have a link to politically biased sites. Now I
understand.
Oh yeah, seeins how for proof everybody has a jpg, try this one.
www.dumbellnebula.com/obama-birth-certificate.jpg
If the ass-hole was legal why hasn't he proved. 9 lawyers have taken
him to court and it has never been thrown out for fact but rather for
procedural reasons, he has spent almost a million dollars fighting to
keep it out of court and there is a petition out there with over
400,000 names on it asking for proof. But he doesn't produce it.
There must be a reason. A simple idiot could figure this one out.
knews4...@yahoo.com
>
> http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/occidental.asp
>
> What a fucking putz.
Snopes?
Ahahahahahahaha...cough, cough, gag.....
Curly Surmudgeon
> And that's dawned even on his core constituencies! Gays and lesbians
> now are fed up with his failure to actually deliver any real benefit -
> and, in fact, not even including health benefits in his (claimed)
> equalizing things for same-sex partners of federal employees.
Don't know may GLBTs do you?
--
Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now it's time for War Crime Trials at the Hague for Bush/Cheney
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kooks 4u2 Shoo
>
> "To err is human, to really fuck things up you need a Republican."
>
> Anon 2008
Not only are we too stupid for words, we just LOVE to parade our
stupidity for all to see. Thank you for not ignoring us! Kisses!
AllYou!
news:70a4a82b-816f-4dab...@o36g2000vbi.googlegroups.com,
HH&C <hot-ham-a...@hotmail.com> mused:
> On Jun 18, 1:37 pm, "AllYou!" <ida...@conversent.net> wrote:
>> Innews:46da1afb-8ac1-47fc...@g15g2000pra.googlegroups.com,
>> knews4u2c...@yahoo.com <knews4u2c...@yahoo.com> mused:
>>
>>> Believe it.
>>> It's true.
>>> You have been lied to.
>>> The President is a fraud.
>>> http://rense.com/general86/dwnto.htm
>>
>> The President is misguided, and entirely wrong-headed on almost
>> every issue of any significance, and I wish like hell that he
>> had never become President. But as much damage as I believe
>> that his policies will do this country, he's much less a fraud
>> that the vast majority of other politicians, and he's doing
>> exactly what he said he would do in the campaign,
>
> Yeh. Tell that to the reservists and the national guardsmen in
> Iraq.
What is it that you think he is doing differently?
>> and he's not any sort of an
>> embarrassment to this country,
>
> Damn! I just blew natty light all over the monitor...
At least he's not a sarcastic bitch-boy who can't really add
anything substantive to a discussion except for smears and inuendo.
So he's got that going for him.
>> and he's doing what he believes, in his heart, is the right
>> thing.
>
> So did the last president. See where that got him?
What's your point?
>> All in all, we could do one hell of a lot worse,
>
> I'm going to have to "strenuously" object.
Without any substqnce at all, of course.
>> and I have no problem whatsoever calling him MY
>> President.
>
> And when he recalls me to active duty, I will call him my
> commander in chief.
Good.
>> Any assertions that he's a fraud show nothing but ignorance...
>
> Who wrote his books?
I give up, who?
AllYou!
news:1858d67e-fa67-4876...@q14g2000vbn.googlegroups.com,
HH&C <hot-ham-a...@hotmail.com> mused:
Still not a whole lot to add, huh.
Curly Surmudgeon
>>>> Haphazard wordplay evasions aside, various entities funded Obama
>>>> through Occidental, Columbia and Harvard.
>>>
>>> Yep, they did. Most people who aren't kooks like you call them
>>> government backed student loans.
>>>
>>> http://www.foxnews.com/politics/elections/2008/04/09/michelle-oba...
>>>
>>> "It wasn't until Barack Obama wrote a pair of best-selling books that
>>> he and his wife escaped their student loan debt, an experience
>>> Michelle Obama said Tuesday helps the couple understand everyday
>>> challenges better than policymakers in Washington."
>>
>> But who wrote the books?
>
> Still not a whole lot to add, huh.
I don't recall your handle here previously, let me introduce you to
hot_ham_and_cheese, the cockroach of misc.survivalism.
As you've noticed, he almost never posts anything on topic. Instead the
roach attacks, misdirection, and insults posters who view the world
without bushbot-induced blindness.
Expect more than misdirection. The cockroach is also a pathological
liar. Recently he promised us that he was going to support President
Obama just as he did President Bush. Note the hypocrisy.
AllYou!
Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySu...@live.com> mused:
..../Pelosi/Obama/Reid/Biden/H Clinton/etc....
Curly Surmudgeon
I'd agree with a U.S. treason trial for Bill Clinton but you'll have to
make the case for your list. I do not see any justification for trying
those four for war crimes, violating their oath of office and perhaps the
Constitution, sure, but War Crimes?
Let's distinguish between graft, corruption, bribery, the average
politician, and true crimes against humanity.
Gunner Asch
wrote:
>>> "It wasn't until Barack Obama wrote a pair of best-selling
>>> books that he and his wife escaped their student loan debt, an
>>> experience Michelle Obama said Tuesday helps the couple
>>> understand everyday challenges better than policymakers in
>>> Washington."
>>
>> But who wrote the books?
>
>Still not a whole lot to add, huh.
So you refuse to answer the question?
Gunner
"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"
Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno
Jim Manson
>On Fri, 19 Jun 2009 10:49:47 -0400, "AllYou!" <ida...@conversent.net>
>wrote:
>
>>>> "It wasn't until Barack Obama wrote a pair of best-selling
>>>> books that he and his wife escaped their student loan debt, an
>>>> experience Michelle Obama said Tuesday helps the couple
>>>> understand everyday challenges better than policymakers in
>>>> Washington."
>>>
>>> But who wrote the books?
>>
>>Still not a whole lot to add, huh.
>
>So you refuse to answer the question?
>
Probably the Obamas along with a professional ghost writer to help
out. Pretty normal these days. Anyone dumb enough to think that
Limbaugh actually wrote his own books?
Ginrich is probably the only one out there doing his own stuff.
Gunner Asch
So then Obama didnt write his own books? And actually...Limbaugh did.
>
>Ginrich is probably the only one out there doing his own stuff.
Keep looking.
Dark Guard
I'm downloading Levin's book. If only it would ever finish...
Curly Surmudgeon
Bush has said that he's planning on writing an autobiography. No doubt
the first draft to his ghost writers will be in crayon.
New Bush autobiography leaked
News reports show that publishers aren't exactly chomping at the bit for
the rights to George W. Bush's memoirs. Unlike both the Clintons, whose
tomes fetched record-breaking advances in the tens of millions, and which
in turn flew off the shelves, publishers have recently been quoted as
saying that, though they'd be interested in something by Laura Bush
(seeing as how she's actually literate), Bush might have to wait around 6
years for anyone to be interested enough to make it worthwhile.
...
http://theinsidedope.blogspot.com/2008/11/new-bush-autobiography-
leaked.html
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_K0MjY0q3Q1w/SRqfoS6CNkI/AAAAAAAABME/_P2JU9u6PIw/
s1600-h/Bush+bio.jpg
10 Titles for a George W Bush Autobiography
http://mediacaffeine.com/perspectives/government/bush-book-titles/
HH&C
wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Jun 2009 15:56:55 -0500, Jim Manson wrote:
> > Gunner Asch <gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote:
>
> >>On Fri, 19 Jun 2009 10:49:47 -0400, "AllYou!" <ida...@conversent.net>
> >>wrote:
>
> >>>>> "It wasn't until Barack Obama wrote a pair of best-selling books
> >>>>> that he and his wife escaped their student loan debt, an experience
> >>>>> Michelle Obama said Tuesday helps the couple understand everyday
> >>>>> challenges better than policymakers in Washington."
>
> >>>> But who wrote the books?
>
> >>>Still not a whole lot to add, huh.
>
> >>So you refuse to answer the question?
>
> > Probably the Obamas along with a professional ghost writer to help out.
> > Pretty normal these days. Anyone dumb enough to think that Limbaugh
> > actually wrote his own books?
>
> > Ginrich is probably the only one out there doing his own stuff.
>
> Bush has said that he's planning on writing an autobiography. No doubt
> the first draft to his ghost writers will be in crayon.
I doubt that.
> New Bush autobiography leaked
> News reports show that publishers aren't exactly chomping at the bit for
> the rights to George W. Bush's memoirs. Unlike both the Clintons, whose
> tomes fetched record-breaking advances in the tens of millions, and which
> in turn flew off the shelves, publishers have recently been quoted as
> saying that, though they'd be interested in something by Laura Bush
> (seeing as how she's actually literate), Bush might have to wait around 6
> years for anyone to be interested enough to make it worthwhile.
> ...http://theinsidedope.blogspot.com/2008/11/new-bush-autobiography-
> leaked.htmlhttp://4.bp.blogspot.com/_K0MjY0q3Q1w/SRqfoS6CNkI/AAAAAAAABME/_P2JU9u...
> s1600-h/Bush+bio.jpg
>
> 10 Titles for a George W Bush Autobiographyhttp://mediacaffeine.com/perspectives/government/bush-book-titles/
Top ten, huh? I knew you got your political news on the David
Letterman show.
> --
> Regards, Curly
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Now it's time for War Crime Trials at the Hague for Bush/Cheney
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hide quoted text -
Eeyore
"AllYou!" wrote:
Crikey. Didn't Bush do enough damage too ?
Graham
--
due to the hugely increased level of spam please make the obvious
adjustment to my email address
Eeyore
Know wrote:
You can't bail out of a 757 or 767.
AllYou!
Only to the same extent to which any claim can be made that
Bush/Cheney should be so tried.
AllYou!
Gunner Asch <gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> mused:
> On Fri, 19 Jun 2009 10:49:47 -0400, "AllYou!"
> <ida...@conversent.net>
> wrote:
>
>>>> "It wasn't until Barack Obama wrote a pair of best-selling
>>>> books that he and his wife escaped their student loan debt, an
>>>> experience Michelle Obama said Tuesday helps the couple
>>>> understand everyday challenges better than policymakers in
>>>> Washington."
>>>
>>> But who wrote the books?
>>
>> Still not a whole lot to add, huh.
>
> So you refuse to answer the question?
It's irrelelvant to me.
Curly Surmudgeon
You've failed to make the point that Clinton should be tried for war
crimes.
>> Let's distinguish between graft, corruption, bribery, the average
>> politician, and true crimes against humanity.
>>
>> --
>> Regards, Curly
>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Now it's time for War Crime Trials at the Hague for
>> Bush/Cheney
>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://tinyurl.com/m5xprb
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Macdonald
news:srhi-F97983.2...@88-136-209-74.adslgp.cegetel.net...
> In article
> <1ba9e068-7bfd-4f27...@k17g2000prn.googlegroups.com>,
> Any further discussion on that question is pointless.
Do you have a Case Citation? Cert. Den. is NOT a ruling.
--
Richard A. Macdonald, CPA/EA
SSG(Ret), USA, ADA, 16P34
Gib mir Schokolade und niemand wird verletzt!!!
Strabo
> In article
> <1ba9e068-7bfd-4f27...@k17g2000prn.googlegroups.com>,
> MEG <ekru...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Any further discussion on that question is pointless.
>
The SCOTUS did not make this decision.
Be that as it may, Obama-Soetoro's illegitimate status is the focus
of unconstitutional government.
AllYou!
That's because it's not my point. My point is that whatever the
basis that someone might have to assert that Bush should be so tried
must also then apply to the others on my list.
AllYou!
Hughbert G. Rection <hugh.g....@richardcranium.tv.su> mused:
Of course all the left wing does is call names, despite the fact
that they missed the point. People whose first reaction is anger
and acrimony usually do miss the point.
AZ Nomad
The difference is that the charges that might be leveled against bush are
based on fact not fantasy.
Dan
Dan
AllYou!
AZ Nomad <azno...@PremoveOBthisOX.COM> mused:
Interestingly, you've provided neither.
Curly Surmudgeon
Go for it!
Please share your evidence that any of those in your list have committed
crimes against humanity.
>>>> Let's distinguish between graft, corruption, bribery, the average
>>>> politician, and true crimes against humanity.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Regards, Curly
--
Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arrest Bush
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Curly Surmudgeon
I have, in another topic but evidently not linked to your newsgroup.
Here they are again:
--==oo0oo==--
A Case for a War Crime Tribunal Against ex-President George Walker Bush
1- President George Walker Bush was constrained by the War Powers Act to
remove forces within 60 days without a Congressional Declaration of War.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Powers_Resolution
2- President George Walker Bush conspired to invade Iraq without
provocation and lied to America about the reasons military force was
necessary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush-Blair_2003_Iraq_memo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downing_Street_memo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush-Aznar_memo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_document_leak_18_September_2004
http://gracchii.blogspot.com/2007/09/sir-david-manning-and-anglo-
american.html
3- President George Walker Bush conspired with the Department of Justice
to fabricate justification for Torture. The U.S. has held that
waterboarding is torture, that torture is illegal and prosecutable.
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1356870
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15886834
For all the reason above I charge ex-President George Walker Bush with
violating his oath of office, lying to the American people, lying to the
U.S. Congress, and crimes against humanity.
I call upon the current U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder to appoint an
independent Special Prosecutor who shall be given full access to any and
all records, papers, recorded media, and notes without regard to
classification and release the entire record at the conclusion of their
investigation.
If it is found that President George Walker Bush has violated his oath of
office, laws of the United States of America, or engaged in Torture then
immediate prosecution shall ensue with documentation with held until the
trial has come to a conclusion.
A quick, speedy, impartial trial with full disclosure of all documents
and testimony. If found guilty then the maximum sentence permissible by
law shall be issued.
--==oo0oo==--
Any questions?
Emmett
"Curly Surmudgeon" <CurlySu...@live.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2009.06...@live.com...
LOL, you and whose army?
Emmett
Curly Surmudgeon
Apparently you are unfamiliar with U.S. Constitutional law. The
proceedure is spelled out quite clearly. Do a little research before
asking dumb questions.
~^ beancounter ~^
On Jun 26, 1:39 am, Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudg...@live.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Jun 2009 01:06:09 -0500, Emmett wrote:
> > "Curly Surmudgeon" <CurlySurmudg...@live.com> wrote in message
> >news:pan.2009.06...@live.com...
> >> On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 12:53:22 -0400, AllYou! wrote:
>
> >>> Innews:slrnh476np.9...@ip70-176-155-130.ph.ph.cox.net, AZ
> >>> Nomad <aznoma...@PremoveOBthisOX.COM> mused:
> >>>> On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 10:45:21 -0400, AllYou! <ida...@conversent.net>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>> Innews:pan.2009.06...@live.com, Curly Surmudgeon
> >>>>> <CurlySurmudg...@live.com> mused:
> >>>>>> On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 13:51:56 -0400, AllYou! wrote:
>
> >>>>>>> Innews:pan.2009.06...@live.com, Curly Surmudgeon
> >>>>>>> <CurlySurmudg...@live.com> mused:
> >>>>>>>> On Fri, 19 Jun 2009 12:59:05 -0400, AllYou! wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>> Innews:pan.2009.06...@live.com, Curly Surmudgeon
> >>>>>>>>> <CurlySurmudg...@live.com> mused:
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------>>>>>>>>>> Now it's time for War Crime Trials at the Hague for
> >>>>>>>>>> Bush/Cheney
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------>> Arrest Bush
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> > LOL, you and whose army?
>
> Apparently you are unfamiliar with U.S. Constitutional law. The
> proceedure is spelled out quite clearly. Do a little research before
> asking dumb questions.
>
> --
> Regards, Curly
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Arrest Bush
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Emmett
"~^ beancounter ~^" <richb...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:459049f2-bc4d-4a1b...@e13g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
Curly Surmudgeon
> let's do it........
I'm ready but it requires the U.S. Attorney General and President to
effectively prosecute a U.S. President. Until Obama quits waffling and
turns Eric Holder loose Bush will skate.
Please contact your legislators, congresscritter, and the President with
your demand that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Pearl, Rice, and
Gonzalez be prosecuted for violating their oaths of office, the
Constitution and Bill of Rights.
--
Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arrest Bush
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
bw
"Curly Surmudgeon" <CurlySu...@live.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2009.06...@live.com...
> On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 12:53:22 -0400, AllYou! wrote:
Nipped garbage
Gunner Asch
wrote:
Translation: I dont want to answer the question because it proves not
only that Im wrong..but a buffoon.
"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"
Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno
Gunner Asch
>In article
><1ba9e068-7bfd-4f27...@k17g2000prn.googlegroups.com>,
> MEG <ekru...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Jun 18, 4:55�pm, Strabo <str...@flashlight.net> wrote:
>>
>> Alright, for proof we have a link to politically biased sites. Now I
>> understand.
>> Oh yeah, seeins how for proof everybody has a jpg, try this one.
>> www.dumbellnebula.com/obama-birth-certificate.jpg
>> If the ass-hole was legal why hasn't he proved. 9 lawyers have taken
>> him to court and it has never been thrown out for fact but rather for
>> procedural reasons, he has spent almost a million dollars fighting to
>> keep it out of court and there is a petition out there with over
>> 400,000 names on it asking for proof. But he doesn't produce it.
>> There must be a reason. A simple idiot could figure this one out.
>
>The Supreme Court ruled Obama is a legal naturalized American citizen.
>Any further discussion on that question is pointless.
Cites?
Gunner
knews4...@yahoo.com
> On Fri, 26 Jun 2009 06:33:09 -0700, ~^ beancounter ~^ wrote:
> > let's do it........
>
> I'm ready but it requires the U.S. Attorney General and President to
> effectively prosecute a U.S. President. Until Obama quits waffling and
> turns Eric Holder loose Bush will skate.
>
> Please contact your legislators, congresscritter, and the President with
> your demand that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Pearl, Rice, and
> Gonzalez be prosecuted for violating their oaths of office, the
> Constitution and Bill of Rights.
>
There's the rub.
The President isn't legally holding office so he can't legally send
anyone after Bush and his cronies either.
If the military leaders don't do it no one will.
AllYou!
And Congress kept funding the war, and so they are just as culpable.
> 2- President George Walker Bush conspired to invade Iraq without
> provocation
And the Congress was a part of that conspiracy, and so they are just
as culpable.
> and lied to America about the reasons military force
> was necessary.
Prove that *he* lied, or that anyone *lied*.
> 3- President George Walker Bush conspired with the Department of
> Justice to fabricate justification for Torture. The U.S. has
> held that waterboarding is torture, that torture is illegal and
> prosecutable.
IOW, Bush took a position on the treatment of hostiles.
> For all the reason above I charge ex-President George Walker
> Bush with violating his oath of office, lying to the American
> people, lying to the U.S. Congress, and crimes against humanity.
And to the extent that those charges have any validity, they apply
equally to anyone who was in the Congress over the last six years.
AllYou!
>
>> let's do it........
>
> I'm ready but it requires the U.S. Attorney General and
> President to effectively prosecute a U.S. President. Until
> Obama quits waffling and turns Eric Holder loose Bush will skate.
Then he's nothing more than a co-conspirator. So why have you left
him out?
AllYou!
Gunner Asch <gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> mused:
> On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 13:52:25 -0400, "AllYou!"
> <ida...@conversent.net>
> wrote:
>
>> In news:ja3t35ljnm4pudraq...@4ax.com,
>> Gunner Asch <gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> mused:
>>> On Fri, 19 Jun 2009 10:49:47 -0400, "AllYou!"
>>> <ida...@conversent.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> "It wasn't until Barack Obama wrote a pair of best-selling
>>>>>> books that he and his wife escaped their student loan debt,
>>>>>> an experience Michelle Obama said Tuesday helps the couple
>>>>>> understand everyday challenges better than policymakers in
>>>>>> Washington."
>>>>>
>>>>> But who wrote the books?
>>>>
>>>> Still not a whole lot to add, huh.
>>>
>>> So you refuse to answer the question?
>>
>> It's irrelelvant to me.
>>
> Translation: I dont want to answer the question because it
> proves not
> only that Im wrong..but a buffoon.
How does not caring about who wrote his books mean that?
Curly Surmudgeon
Because Obama hasn't engaged in torture or invaded a sovereign nation.
Duh...
When he does get back to me and I'll include Barak in my demand for war
crimes.
--
Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://tinyurl.com/lpcbrm
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Curly Surmudgeon
How does that mitigate the crimes of George Walker Bush? Are the victims
any less dead? Does a complacent Congress legitimize the crimes?
>> 2- President George Walker Bush conspired to invade Iraq without
>> provocation
>
> And the Congress was a part of that conspiracy, and so they are just as
> culpable.
How does that mitigate the crimes of George Walker Bush? Are the victims
any less dead? Does a complacent Congress legitimize the crimes?
>> and lied to America about the reasons military force was necessary.
>
> Prove that *he* lied, or that anyone *lied*.
Do you comprehend the concept of "secret" and "Tribunal"?
>> 3- President George Walker Bush conspired with the Department of
>> Justice to fabricate justification for Torture. The U.S. has held that
>> waterboarding is torture, that torture is illegal and prosecutable.
>
> IOW, Bush took a position on the treatment of hostiles.
Yes, an illegal position.
>> For all the reason above I charge ex-President George Walker Bush with
>> violating his oath of office, lying to the American people, lying to
>> the U.S. Congress, and crimes against humanity.
>
> And to the extent that those charges have any validity, they apply
> equally to anyone who was in the Congress over the last six years.
That's your issue, mine is a criminal President.
--
Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://tinyurl.com/lpcbrm
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Curly Surmudgeon
>> 2- President George Walker Bush conspired to invade Iraq without
>> provocation
>
> And the Congress was a part of that conspiracy, and so they are just as
> culpable.
>
>
>> and lied to America about the reasons military force was necessary.
>
> Prove that *he* lied, or that anyone *lied*.
That is the purpose of trials. Evidence abounds, if you get your head
out of your ass:
Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Pearl, etc., _knew_ there were
no WMD's even while claiming their presence for an excuse to invade.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downing_street_memo
http://greywolf.newsvine.com/_news/2006/12/20/489409-60-minutes-cia-
official-reveals-bush-cheney-rice-were-told-iraq-had-no-wmd
"Lying" about WMD's isn't the entire issue, it is that the lies were
premeditated in a conspiracy to take our nation into an otherwise
unjustifiable war.
Now it's time to try Bush and co-conspirators in a court of law and find
the truth.
--
Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://tinyurl.com/lpcbrm
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AllYou!
Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySu...@live.com> mused:
> On Mon, 29 Jun 2009 13:18:55 -0400, AllYou! wrote:
>
>> In news:pan.2009.06...@live.com, Curly Surmudgeon
>> <CurlySu...@live.com> mused:
>>> On Fri, 26 Jun 2009 06:33:09 -0700, ~^ beancounter ~^ wrote:
>>>
>>>> let's do it........
>>>
>>> I'm ready but it requires the U.S. Attorney General and
>>> President to effectively prosecute a U.S. President. Until
>>> Obama quits waffling and turns Eric Holder loose Bush will
>>> skate.
>>
>> Then he's nothing more than a co-conspirator. So why have you
>> left him out?
>
> Because Obama hasn't engaged in torture or invaded a sovereign
> nation.
If it's in his power to prosecute, and he doesn't, then he's not
upholding his constitutional responsibilities, and especially given
his senate votes to fund Bush's activities, that makes him a
co-conspirator.
> Duh...
Why do you see the need to resort to insults? Is that consistent
with Hope and Change?
AllYou!
<sigh> See the above wherein I said: "That's because it's not my
point. My point is that whatever the basis that someone might have
to assert that Bush should be so tried must also then apply to the
others on my list. "
Are you willing to add each of the members of Congress who voted to
fund the wars on your list?
>>> and lied to America about the reasons military force was
>>> necessary.
>>
>> Prove that *he* lied, or that anyone *lied*.
>
> Do you comprehend the concept of "secret" and "Tribunal"?
Yes. Do you comprehend the concept of 'lie'?
>
>>> 3- President George Walker Bush conspired with the Department
>>> of Justice to fabricate justification for Torture. The U.S.
>>> has held that waterboarding is torture, that torture is
>>> illegal and prosecutable.
>>
>> IOW, Bush took a position on the treatment of hostiles.
>
> Yes, an illegal position.
How so?
>>> For all the reason above I charge ex-President George Walker
>>> Bush with violating his oath of office, lying to the American
>>> people, lying to the U.S. Congress, and crimes against
>>> humanity.
>>
>> And to the extent that those charges have any validity, they
>> apply equally to anyone who was in the Congress over the last
>> six years.
>
> That's your issue, mine is a criminal President.
My mistake for thinking you were about justice and not petty
politics. I overestimated you.. I thought your issue was equal
justice under the law, and not just arbitrarily excluding those of
your choice. There is no justice unless it's applied equally to
all. The fact remains that Bush was powerless to commit any of the
crimes you allege without the complete and open approval and
cooperation of Congress. Therefore, under any legitimate legal
system, Bush cannot be prosecuted unless they are.
You seem to be terribly confused by this simple concept.
AllYou!
>
>>> 2- President George Walker Bush conspired to invade Iraq
>>> without provocation
>>
>> And the Congress was a part of that conspiracy, and so they are
>> just as culpable.
>>
>>
>>> and lied to America about the reasons military force was
>>> necessary.
>>
>> Prove that *he* lied, or that anyone *lied*.
>
> That is the purpose of trials. Evidence abounds, if you get
> your head out of your ass:
I guess you don't like to have your position challenged all that
much. It must scare you or it wouldn't evoke that much anger in
you. Anyway, there must be a prima fascia case for a trial before
one can be initiated, and so far, you've not made one.
> Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Pearl, etc., _knew_
> there were no WMD's even while claiming their presence for an
> excuse to invade.
How do you know that they knew it?
Jeff Mc
> In news:pan.2009.06...@live.com,
> Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySu...@live.com> mused:
>> On Mon, 29 Jun 2009 13:17:34 -0400, AllYou! wrote:
>>
>>>> 2- President George Walker Bush conspired to invade Iraq
>>>> without provocation
>>> And the Congress was a part of that conspiracy, and so they are
>>> just as culpable.
>>>
>>>
>>>> and lied to America about the reasons military force was
>>>> necessary.
>>> Prove that *he* lied, or that anyone *lied*.
>> That is the purpose of trials. Evidence abounds, if you get
>> your head out of your ass:
>
> I guess you don't like to have your position challenged all that
> much. It must scare you or it wouldn't evoke that much anger in
> you. Anyway, there must be a prima fascia
"Prima facie" is the term of art. Here you go (not my work product):
> Torture, Rendition, Illegal Detention and Murder Indictment
>
> Torture:
>
> Count 1: The Bush administration authorized the use of torture and
> abuse in violation of international humanitarian and human rights law
> and domestic constitutional and statutory law.
>
> Rendition:
>
> Count 2: The Bush administration authorized the transfer
> (�rendition�) of persons held in U.S. custody to foreign countries
> where torture is known to be practiced.
>
> Illegal Detention:
>
> Count 3: The Bush administration authorized the indefinite detention
> of persons seized in foreign combat zones and in other countries far
> from any combat zone and denied them the protections of the Geneva
> Conventions on the treatment of prisoners of war and the protections
> of the U.S. Constitution.
>
> Count 4: The Bush administration authorized the round-up and
> detention in the United States of tens of thousands of immigrants on
> pretextual grounds and held them without charge or trial in violation
> of international human rights law and domestic constitutional and
> civil rights law.
>
> Count 5: The Bush administration used military forces to seize and
> detain indefinitely without charges U.S. citizens, denying them the
> right to challenge their detention in U.S. courts.
>
> Murder:
>
> Count 6: The Bush administration committed murder by authorizing the
> CIA to kill those that the president designates, either US citizens
> or non-citizens, anywhere in the world.
>
>
> Count 1
>
> a. The Defendants responsible for the violations delineated in this
> count include: George W. Bush, President of the United States, Dick
> Cheney, Vice President, Donald H. Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense,
> former Director of Central Intelligence, George Tenet; Lt. Gen.
> Ricardo S. Sanchez, V Corps, Commanding General and formerly in
> charge of Combined Joint Task Force 7, Iraq; Colonel Thomas M.
> Pappas, Brigade Commander, 205th Military Intelligence Brigade; Maj.
> Gen. Geoffrey Miller; Alberto Gonzales, formerly White House Counsel
> and now Attorney General of the United States; Jay S. Bybee,
> Assistant Attorney General, and David Addington, Vice Presidential
> Counsel.
>
> b. Defendants� actions under this count constitute egregious
> violations of international and domestic law, including crimes of war
> and crimes against humanity. The U.S. laws violated include, but are
> not limited to: the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution; 18 U.S.C.
> Section 242 (War Crimes); 18 U.S.C. Section 2340 (Convention Against
> Torture Statute); the Uniform Code of Military Justice, Army
> Regulation 190-8, Articles 3 and 5 of the Third and Fourth Geneva
> Conventions, and customary international law as reflected, expressed,
> and defined in multilateral treaties and other international
> instruments, international and domestic judicial decisions, and other
> authorities.
>
> c. In commission of Count 1, those named above did engage in the
> following acts:
>
> 1) In or about December, 2001, Bush ordered torture by authorizing
> Tenet to order the Special Access Program that led to the secret
> detention of Hiwa Abdul Rahman Rushul, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, Abu
> Zabaida and dozens of other detainees without any contact with the
> outside world in secret prisons around the world and ordering them
> subjected to tortures including water-boarding, severe beatings,
> subjection to extreme temperatures, suspension in painful positions,
> denial of pain-killing medicine after gunshot wounds, severe burning
> by hot metal, asphyxiation and by threat of death and sexual assault
> against themselves and members of their families. During such torture
> an unknown number of detainees died, including Manadel al-Jamadi,
> Abdul Wali and Abid Hamad Mahalwi. 2) On or about August 1, 2002,
> upon the initiative of Cheney, Addington and Gonzales drafted a
> memorandum, �Re: Standards of conduct under USC 2340-2340 A� signed
> by Bybee, justifying torture and authorizing its use on detainees and
> detailing possible defenses in the event of prosecution under the
> Convention Against Torture Act. The memorandum was approved by Bush,
> Cheney and the National Security Council. 3) In October, 2002, Miller
> requested authorization of torture techniques for use at Guantanamo.
4) Beginning in November, 2002, Miller, acting with the authorization
> of the above-cited memorandum, committed grave breaches of the Geneva
> Conventions by ordering coerced interrogation of hundreds of
> detainees at Guantanamo Bay, by subjecting them to humiliating and
> degrading treatment, including the forced removal of clothing, sleep
> deprivation, sensory deprivation, subjection to loud and prolonged
> noise, by denying them medical care and by submitting them to
> torture. Miller ordered the torture of at least dozens of detainees
> at Guantanamo Bay by ordering them subjected to extremes of heat and
> cold, shackled in painful positions for many hours, subjected to
> beatings with batons, all of which caused the detainees severe pain
> and suffering. In addition he ordered them threatened with dogs,
> subjecting them to threat of severe pain and suffering by dog-bite.
> In addition he ordered that detainees be threatened with transfer to
> countries known for extreme methods of torture. 5) In December, 2002,
> Rumsfeld, acting under the authorization of the August, 2002
> memorandum, committed grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions by
> ordering the coerced interrogation of detainees at Guantanamo, by
> subjecting them to humiliating and degrading treatment, including the
> forced removal of clothing, sensory deprivation, stress positions,
> and torture ordering that detainees at Guantanamo be threatened with
> dogs, subjecting them to threat of severe pain and suffering by
> dog-bite. 6) In August, 2003, Rumsfeld sent Miller to Iraq to
> institute torture techniques there. 7) In September, 2003, Sanchez
> committed grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions by ordering
> coerced interrogation of hundreds of detainees in Iraq, by subjecting
> them to humiliating and degrading treatment, including the forced
> removal of clothing, sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation,
> subjection to loud and prolonged noise, by denying them medical care
> and by submitting them to torture by ordering them subjected to
> extremes of heat and cold, shackled in painful positions for many
> hours, all of which caused the detainees severe pain and suffering.
> In addition he ordered them threatened with dogs, subjecting them to
> threat of severe pain and suffering by dog-bite. Furthermore when
> Sanchez was informed by the ICRC of additional torture and degrading
> treatment occurring in detention centers throughout Iraq, he did
> nothing to stop these acts. 8) Beginning in September , 2003 many
> detainees at Abu Ghraib, and elsewhere in Iraq were tortured pursuant
> to the directives of Rumsfeld, Miller and Sanchez, authorized by the
> August, 2002 memorandum. During the commission of the acts of torture
> that the defendants conspired to commit, at least 28 detainees died.
>
>
>
> Count 2
>
> a. The Defendants responsible for the violations delineated in this
> count include: George W. Bush, President of the United States, John
> Ashcroft, formerly Attorney General of the United States; Tom Ridge,
> formerly Secretary of State for Homeland Security; George Tenet,
> formerly Director of Central Intelligence.
>
> b. Defendants� actions under this count constitute egregious
> violations of international and domestic law. The laws violated
> include, but are not limited to: the Due Process Clause of the Fifth
> Amendment to the Constitution; 18 U.S.C. Section 242 (War Crimes); 18
> U.S.C. Section 2340 (Convention Against Torture Statute), 28 U.S.C. �
> 1350, note (the Torture Victim Protection Act), 5 U.S.C. � 702
> (Administrative Procedure Act); the Convention Against Torture and
> implementing regulations.
>
> c. In commission of Count 2, those named above did engage in the
> following acts:
>
> 1) Since September 11, 2001, the Defendants committed grave breaches
> of the Geneva Conventions and authorized torture by authorizing
> covert �extraordinary renditions,� -- the detention and transfer of
> over 100 detainees including both US citizens, such as Ahmed Omar Abu
> Ali, and non-citizens, such as Canadian Maher Arar, to countries
> known for torture, to be tortured at CIA direction. The Defendants
> who have adopted, ratified, and/or implemented the �extraordinary
> renditions� policy know that non-U.S. citizens removed under this
> policy will be interrogated under torture.
>
>
> Count 3
>
> a. The Defendants responsible for the violations delineated in this
> count include: George W. Bush, President of the United States, Dick
> Cheney, Vice President, Donald H. Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense,
> Alberto Gonzales, formerly White House Counsel and now Attorney
> General of the United States; George Tenet, formerly Director of
> Central Intelligence, Jay S. Bybee, Assistant Attorney General, and
> David Addington, Vice Presidential Counsel.
>
> b. Defendants� actions under this count constitute egregious
> violations of international and domestic law, including crimes of war
> and crimes against humanity. The U.S. laws violated include, but are
> not limited to: Article II of the U.S. Constitution; the Due Process
> Clause of the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution; the due process
> requirements embodied in the common law; 5 U.S.C. Section 702 (the
> Administrative Procedure Act); 18 U.S.C. Section 242 (War Crimes);
> Deprivation of Rights Under Color of Law (18 USC 242); Conspiracy
> Against Rights (18 USC 241); the Uniform Code of Military Justice,
> Army Regulation 190-8, Articles 3 and 5 of the Third and Fourth
> Geneva Conventions, and customary international law as reflected,
> expressed, and defined in multilateral treaties and other
> international instruments, international and domestic judicial
> decisions, and other authorities.
>
> c. In commission of Count 3, those named above did engage in the
> following acts:
>
> 1) In October, 2001 Cheney and Addington committed grave breaches of
> the Geneva Conventions by directing that a Presidential order be
> drafted authorizing the indefinite detention without charge of
> detainees and their subjection to military tribunals. 2) On November
> 16, 2001, Bush did under color of law willfully subject thousands of
> detainees outside the United States to the deprivation of their
> rights to due process under the Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Amendments to
> the Constitution by on Nov. 16, 2001 issuing a Military Order
> authorizing unconstitutional detention without charge of
> non-citizens, also thereby committing a grave breach of the Geneva
> Conventions. 3) In November, 2001, pursuant to the above-cited
> Military order, thousands of individual were detained in camps in
> Afghanistan and at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba without charge or trial. The
> detainees have been imprisoned at the Guant�namo since January 2002.
> They have been held incommunicado without access to their families or
> counsel or to the courts. 4) In or about December, 2001, Bush
> committed authorized Tenet to order the Special Access Program that
> led to the secret detention of Hiwa Abdul Rahman Rushul, Khalid
> Shaikh Mohammed, Abu Zabaida and dozens of other detainees without
> any contact with the outside world in secret prisons around the
> world. 5) In January, 2002, Gonzales committed grave breaches of the
> Geneva Conventions by advising Bush in written memos to suspend the
> application of the Geneva conventions to detainees. 6) On February 7,
> 2002, Bush committed grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions by
> issuing in February 7, 2002 a Memorandum stating that Geneva
> Convention does not apply to detainees, �unlawful combatants�. 7)
> Beginning in March, 2003, tens of thousands of individuals are
> detained in Iraq without charge or trial, in violation of the Geneva
> Conventions.
>
>
> Count 4
>
> a. The Defendants responsible for the violations delineated in this
> count include: John Ashcroft, formerly Attorney General of the
> United States; Alberto Gonzales, Attorney General of the United
> States; Tom Ridge, formerly Secretary of Homeland Security, Michael
> Chernoff Secretary of Homeland Security
>
> b. Defendants� actions under this count constitute egregious
> violations of international and domestic law. The laws violated
> include, but are not limited to: the First, Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth
> Amendments to the Constitution, Deprivation of Rights Under Color of
> Law (18 USC 242); Conspiracy Against Rights (18 USC 241); the Alien
> Tort Statute (28 U.S.C. 1350) ,customary international law, and
> treaty law as incorporated into federal common law and statutory law.
>
>
> c. In commission of Count 4, those named above did engage in the
> following acts:
>
> 1) Thousands of male non-citizens from the Middle East, South Asia,
> and elsewhere who are Arab or Muslim or have been perceived by
> Defendants to be Arab or Muslim, were detained on minor immigration
> violations following the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks on the
> United States (�post-9/11 detainees�), and were treated as �of
> interest� to the government�s terrorism investigation and subjected
> to a blanket �hold until cleared policy� pursuant to which the
> Immigration and Naturalization Service (�INS�) denied them bond
> without regard to evidence of dangerousness or flight risk, and
> detained them until the Federal Bureau of Investigation (�FBI�)
> cleared them of terrorist ties. All were in fact cleared of any
> connection to terrorism.
>
> 2) Subsequently, in the period from January, 2002 to the present,
> tens of thousands of non-citizens from many countries, primarily
> from the Caribbean, and Africa but also from the Middle East, South
> Asia, Latin America and Eastern Europe, were detained without
> criminal charge for months and in some cases years as �administrative
> detainees�, a practice in violation of the basic provisions of the
> Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Amendments.
>
> 3) The victims were subjected to one or more of the following
> unconstitutional policies and practices: they were held without an
> indictment by a Grand jury, they were denied the right to counsel,
> the right to a trial by jury and denied any form of judicial review.
> They were held without any criminal charge being brought against
> them. They were denied bond. Some were classified as being �of high
> interest� to the government�s terrorism investigation, �Witness
> Security� and/or �Management Interest Group 155� detainees in the
> absence of adequate standards or procedures for making such a
> determination or evidence that they were involved in terrorism. They
> were subjected to a communications blackout and other actions that
> interfered with their access to counsel and their ability to seek
> redress in the courts. After receiving final removal orders or grants
> of voluntary departure, some were held in immigration custody far
> beyond the period necessary to secure their removal or voluntary
> departure from the United States, again without regard to whether
> they posed a danger or flight risk.
>
> 4) While in detention, the detainees have been subjected to
> unreasonable and excessively harsh conditions. Some have been held
> in overcrowded and unsanitary county jail facilities and housed with
> potentially dangerous criminal pretrial detainees, even though they
> themselves have never been charged with a crime. Others have been
> kept in federal and county facilities where they have been placed in
> tiny cells for over 23 hours a day and strip-searched, manacled, and
> shackled when taken out of their cells. Many have suffered physical
> and verbal abuse by their guards. These abuses include being badly
> beaten and being attacked by dogs. Many have been denied the ability
> to practice their faith during their detention.
>
> 5) During their confinement, Defendants or their agents subjected
> some detainees to coercive and involuntary custodial interrogation
> designed to overcome their will and coerce involuntary and
> incriminating statements from them.
>
> 6) By adopting, promulgating, and implementing these policies and
> practices, Defendants Ashcroft, Gonzales, Ridge, and Chernoff, and
> others have intentionally or recklessly violated rights guaranteed to
> the detainees by the Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Amendments to the
> United States Constitution, customary international law, and treaty
> law. In doing so they have also violated the Deprivation of Rights
> Under Color of Law Act (18 USC 242) which prescribes punishment for
> �Whoever, under color of any law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or
> custom, willfully subjects any person in any State, Territory,
> Commonwealth, Possession, or District to the deprivation of any
> rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the
> Constitution or laws of the United States, or to different
> punishments, pains, or penalties, on account of such person being an
> alien, or by reason of his color, or race, than are prescribed for
> the punishment of citizens�. They have also engaged in a Conspiracy
> Against Rights (18 USC 241) by conspiring to injure, oppress,
> threaten, and intimidate the detainees in the free exercise or
> enjoyment of the rights and privileges secured to them by the
> Constitution of the United States, including the right to personal
> liberty and to due process.
>
>
> Count 5
>
> a. The Defendants responsible for the violations delineated in this
> count include: George W. Bush, President of the United States, Dick
> Cheney, Vice President, Donald H. Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense,
> Alberto Gonzales, formerly White House Counsel and now Attorney
> General of the United States;. Jay S. Bybee, Assistant Attorney
> General, and Dick Addington, Vice Presidential Counsel.
>
> b. Defendants� actions under this count constitute egregious
> violations of international and domestic law. The laws violated
> include, but are not limited to: Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Amendments
> to the Constitution, Deprivation of Rights Under Color of Law (18 USC
> 242); Conspiracy Against Rights (18 USC 241); customary international
> law, and treaty law as incorporated into federal common law and
> statutory law.
>
> c. In commission of Count 5, those named above did engage in the
> following acts:
>
> 1) On June 9, Bush ordered Rumsfeld to detain Jose Padilla, a U.S.
> citizen as an �enemy combatant�. Rumsfeld ordered that military
> personnel carry out this Presidential directive, which had no basis
> in any law. Padilla was not charged with any criminal offense, was
> not indicted by a grand jury, was not convicted or even tried by a
> jury, was given no access to counsel and has been imprisoned for over
> three years. Padilla�s rights under the Fourth, Fifth and Sixth
> Amendments to the Constitution were thereby violated in violation of
> 18 USC 242 and 18 USC 241.
>
> 2) On the initiative of Cheney and Addington, Gonzales inserted into
> an Aug.1, 2002 memorandum from Bybee wording justifying the
> President unlimited power to detain as enemy combatants anyone,
> without any judicial process. This memorandum, approved by Bush and
> Cheney is part of a conspiracy against the rights of all US citizens
> and residents.
>
> 3) In court papers in the case of Padilla, and in the case of Hamdi
> as well as elsewhere, Bush and his agents have claimed that the
> President has the power to designate any one, citizen or immigrant,
> as a enemy combatant and to jail them indefinitely without charge or
> trial. Such assertions by those acting under color of law constitute
> a conspiracy against the rights of all US citizens and residents.
>
>
> Count 6
>
> a. The Defendants responsible for the violations delineated in this
> count include: George W. Bush, President of the United States,
> George Tenet, formerly Director of Central Intelligence
>
> b. Defendants� actions under this count constitute egregious
> violations of international and domestic law. The laws violated
> include, but are not limited to: the Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth
> Amendments to the Constitution, Deprivation of Rights Under Color of
> Law (18 USC 242); and Murder (18 USC 1111)
>
> c. In commission of Count 6, those named above did engage in the
> following acts:
>
> 1) In October 2001 Bush issued a secret finding authorizing the CIA
> to kill those he designated, either US citizens or non-citizens,
> anywhere in the world.
>
> 2) Under the authority of this secret finding, Bush and Tenet ordered
> the killing by Predator drone of US citizen Kamal Derwish.
Jeff Mc
[snip]
>> How does that mitigate the crimes of George Walker Bush? Are
>> the victims any less dead? Does a complacent Congress
>> legitimize the crimes?
>
> <sigh> See the above wherein I said: "That's because it's not my
> point. My point is that whatever the basis that someone might have
> to assert that Bush should be so tried must also then apply to the
> others on my list. "
>
> Are you willing to add each of the members of Congress who voted to
> fund the wars on your list?
Congress members are immune from criminal prosecution for their
legislative acts.
Curly Surmudgeon
Wouldn't matter in his scenario, it's his list and he demands that
everyone on it be prosecuted or Bush gets a free pass. Dumb...
Curly Surmudgeon
> In news:pan.2009.06...@live.com, Curly Surmudgeon
> <CurlySu...@live.com> mused:
>> On Mon, 29 Jun 2009 13:18:55 -0400, AllYou! wrote:
>>
>>> In news:pan.2009.06...@live.com, Curly Surmudgeon
>>> <CurlySu...@live.com> mused:
>>>> On Fri, 26 Jun 2009 06:33:09 -0700, ~^ beancounter ~^ wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> let's do it........
>>>>
>>>> I'm ready but it requires the U.S. Attorney General and President to
>>>> effectively prosecute a U.S. President. Until Obama quits waffling
>>>> and turns Eric Holder loose Bush will skate.
>>>
>>> Then he's nothing more than a co-conspirator. So why have you left
>>> him out?
>>
>> Because Obama hasn't engaged in torture or invaded a sovereign nation.
>
> If it's in his power to prosecute, and he doesn't, then he's not
> upholding his constitutional responsibilities, and especially given his
> senate votes to fund Bush's activities, that makes him a co-conspirator.
Then go for it. Seriously, be my guest. I don't like Obama's refusal to
prosecute criminals either. Don't get in the way of prosecuting Bush
while you advocate against Obama.
Neither argument holds water, Bush can torture because others torture
_or_ Bush gets to skate because others haven't been likewise charged.
>> Duh...
>
> Why do you see the need to resort to insults? Is that consistent with
> Hope and Change?
Because it's a stupid demand.
>> When he does get back to me and I'll include Barak in my demand for war
>> crimes.
--
AllYou!
Do you agree that Obama would be a co-conspirator by your standard?
You seem to be trying mightly to avoid taking a stand on that one.
> Neither argument holds water, Bush can torture because others
> torture _or_ Bush gets to skate because others haven't been
> likewise charged.
I'm glad that I made neither argument, then.
>>> Duh...
>>
>> Why do you see the need to resort to insults? Is that
>> consistent with Hope and Change?
>
> Because it's a stupid demand.
You seem to be of the mind that those who disagree with your
position, or at least wish to test, must therefore be stupid or else
they'd agree with you. The fact is that if you were confident in
your position, and if a counter position was all that stupid, then
those two facts would stand on their own without the need for
insults.
AllYou!
Jeff Mc <NoS...@NoThanks.org> mused:
But are they just as complicit?
AllYou!
>
>> AllYou! wrote:
>> [snip]
>>>> How does that mitigate the crimes of George Walker Bush? Are
>>>> the victims any less dead? Does a complacent Congress
>>>> legitimize the crimes?
>>>
>>> <sigh> See the above wherein I said: "That's because it's not
>>> my point. My point is that whatever the basis that someone
>>> might have to assert that Bush should be so tried must also
>>> then apply to the others on my list. "
>>>
>>> Are you willing to add each of the members of Congress who
>>> voted to fund the wars on your list?
>>
>> Congress members are immune from criminal prosecution for their
>> legislative acts.
>
> Wouldn't matter in his scenario, it's his list and he demands
> that everyone on it be prosecuted or Bush gets a free pass.
> Dumb...
That would not be all that valid if that was my position. But it's
not. It's just the position that you want to ascribe to me so that
you can avoid addressing my actual position.
Jeff Mc
Yeah, to some degree, in my opinion. They failed to ask the tough
questions and thoroughly investigate the grounds for, and conduct of,
war. They also failed to oversee, and even enabled, Executive branch
abuses of law, and allowed the "War on Terror" to spin totally out of
control.
AllYou!
Curly Surmudgeon
wrote:
I do not care to become embroiled in that discussion. Yet.
>> Neither argument holds water, Bush can torture because others torture
>> _or_ Bush gets to skate because others haven't been likewise charged.
>
> I'm glad that I made neither argument, then.
Yes, you have by implication. You've answered my case for trying Bush
with a distraction to what you see as Obama's crimes. Trivializing a
well thought out presentation on war crimes with sloth.
>>>> Duh...
>>>
>>> Why do you see the need to resort to insults? Is that consistent with
>>> Hope and Change?
>>
>> Because it's a stupid demand.
>
> You seem to be of the mind that those who disagree with your position,
> or at least wish to test, must therefore be stupid or else they'd agree
> with you. The fact is that if you were confident in your position, and
> if a counter position was all that stupid, then those two facts would
> stand on their own without the need for insults.
You've tried to hijack the thread for your own personal agenda with
stupid distractions. I cannot prevent you from doing stupid shit, it is
your right to do so and I wouldn't dream of stopping you. However I can
refuse to allow your stupid distractions from vectoring this discussion.
If you wish to roast Obama feel free to do so in an appropriate thread
but here I will call you out when you attempt to trivialize the root
subject.
Curly Surmudgeon
> AllYou! wrote:
>> In news:8e82m.16762$Xw4....@bignews7.bellsouth.net, Jeff Mc
>> <NoS...@NoThanks.org> mused:
>>> AllYou! wrote:
>>> [snip]
>>>>> How does that mitigate the crimes of George Walker Bush? Are the
>>>>> victims any less dead? Does a complacent Congress legitimize the
>>>>> crimes?
>>>> <sigh> See the above wherein I said: "That's because it's not my
>>>> point. My point is that whatever the basis that someone might have
>>>> to assert that Bush should be so tried must also then apply to the
>>>> others on my list. "
>>>>
>>>> Are you willing to add each of the members of Congress who voted to
>>>> fund the wars on your list?
>>> Congress members are immune from criminal prosecution for their
>>> legislative acts.
>>
>> But are they just as complicit?
>
> Yeah, to some degree, in my opinion. They failed to ask the tough
> questions and thoroughly investigate the grounds for, and conduct of,
> war.
True but that wasn't his question. Your response isn't "yeah" but "to
some degree." I'd argue that while Congress violated their oath and
constitutional obligation by giving their War Powers authority to the
executive branch they were rushed into a decision under threat by the
White House of nuclear, biological and chemical attack on our homeland
reinforced with 9/11 and anthrax attacks.
Both issues which Bush put as his highest priority to solve.
A bigger fuckup by congress is their failure to halt the wars when Bush's
lies became known. That showed a lack of spine and integrity.
> They also failed to oversee, and even enabled, Executive branch
> abuses of law, and allowed the "War on Terror" to spin totally out of
> control.
Agreed but Congress is not "just as complicit" as Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld,
Wolfowitz, Fleischer, Rice, Powell, Pearl, et. al. Congress was/is
cowards fearing for their political career more than doing the right
thing. Congress submitted to the bullies and yes we should try them for
their minor crimes.
Congress does not approach the severity of crimes that the Bush
administration perpetrated on America.
AllYou!
Then by definition, you do not care about justice. Bush could not
have done what you claim he has without Congress as co-conspirators,
and to selectively pick only one conspirator is contrary to any
sense of justice.
>
>>> Neither argument holds water, Bush can torture because others
>>> torture _or_ Bush gets to skate because others haven't been
>>> likewise charged.
>>
>> I'm glad that I made neither argument, then.
>
> Yes, you have by implication.
Possibly by your inference, but not by implication.
> You've answered my case for
> trying Bush with a distraction to what you see as Obama's
> crimes. Trivializing a well thought out presentation on war
> crimes with sloth.
No, that's not it at all. The only point I've made is that to the
extent that anyone believes that Bush committed a crime, they must
therefore also believe that Obama has as well. The fact that you
missed that point doesn't mean I didn't make it. It just means that
you missed it.
>
>>>>> Duh...
>>>>
>>>> Why do you see the need to resort to insults? Is that
>>>> consistent with Hope and Change?
>>>
>>> Because it's a stupid demand.
>>
>> You seem to be of the mind that those who disagree with your
>> position, or at least wish to test, must therefore be stupid or
>> else they'd agree with you. The fact is that if you were
>> confident in your position, and if a counter position was all
>> that stupid, then those two facts would stand on their own
>> without the need for insults.
>
> You've tried to hijack the thread for your own personal agenda
> with stupid distractions. I cannot prevent you from doing
> stupid shit, it is your right to do so and I wouldn't dream of
> stopping you. However I can refuse to allow your stupid
> distractions from vectoring this discussion.
I can understand how your complete misunderstanding of my point,
plus your own documented agenda, can lead you to this silly
conclusion.
AllYou!
They're tough enough to stand responsible for their own complicity.