smoke machine
Jeffrey Keyzer
able to make relatively oderless, non-flammable, non-toxic and non-messy
smoke. (Something I can shine lights and lasers through, without killing
myself and staining the carpet. ;-)
Thanks in advance!
---------------
Jeff Keyzer
Jeffrey...@sacbbx.com
Donald J. Miller
: Has anyone around here ever built a smoke machine? I'd like to be
: able to make relatively oderless, non-flammable, non-toxic and non-messy
: smoke. (Something I can shine lights and lasers through, without killing
: myself and staining the carpet. ;-)
: Thanks in advance!
The low-to-the-floor clingy stuff is easy to make. I was on a stage crew
at one time and we used dry ice. We would get a 55 gallon oil drum
(of course, smaller scale implementations are possible) and set it on
a couple of hot plates. We would fill it half full of water and let
the water warm up (this took hours!). We made a lid with a fiting
for dryer hose (the cheap plastic stuff).
When it was time for the smoke, the dry ice block went in, the lid went
on, and smoke came out of the dryer hose.
--
-------------------------------------------------
Don Miller My opinions are my own!
dmi...@crl.com
-------------------------------------------------
John Sevinsky
I built one, but it's not very reliable right now. Maybe you can
enhance the design and make it better.
I bought an electric hot water heater element at my favorite builders
supply store. It's about 9" long, and produces 4500W at 240V. That's
a lot of power, but if you run it at 120V, you get about 1000W, which
is reasonable.
I wrapped 1/8" diameter copper tubing around the element. I needed
about 10' of it. I then attached an automotive washer fluid pump to
one end of the copper tubing. The input to the pump went to a bottle
of fog fluid, which I bought at a theatrical supply store for $15 per
liter.
To control the temperature, I found a 500 degree thermostat in an
electronics surplus catalog. I bolted it to the heating element and
wired it in series with the element. So when the element hits 500
degrees, the power to the element shuts off. I don't know if 500
degrees is the optimum temperature for the fog fluid, but I figured
that it was definitely high enough.
I fired the thing up and turned on the pump after the element heated
up. Fog actually came out the other end of the tubing! But, I soon
found out that the washer fluid pump was not a good choice for this,
because it couldn't deal well with the pressure created by vaporizing
the fog fluid. And, it leaked a bit anyway.
I went through my electronics surplus catalogs again and found a low
volume, high pressure piston pump. And, it had standard brass
fittings that fit all kinds of tubing adapters available at the local
automotive store. It worked great. No leaks anymore, and lots of
pressure.
There are MANY improvements and safety features that could be added to
this design. It needs another therostat set at a lower temperature to
disable the pump when the element isn't hot enough. The heating
element/tubing assembly should be cast in alluminum to provide a
larger heat mass. A flow control would be nice, because this pump
really puts out too much for small rooms.
Another design that I had thought about was to spray the fluid onto a
hot plate to vaporize it, but I couldn't think of a good way to
implement this design using parts that could be easily purchased.
John
Leon Heller
Jeffrey...@sacbbx.com "Jeffrey Keyzer" writes:
In horror films they generate mist by dropping pieces of dry ice (solid
carbon dioxide) into boiling water. Of course, the water vapour produced
is heavier than air, and will tend to lie close to the floor, unlike
real smoke. Perhaps you could blow it around with a fan. This technique
should be quite safe provided you don't allow the dry ice to contact
anyone's skin, and you are careful with the boiling water.
Leon
--
Leon Heller
E-mail: le...@lfheller.demon.co.uk
Tel: +44 (0)734 266679
Jim Buchanan
In article <Jeffrey_K...@sacbbx.com>, Jeffrey...@sacbbx.com (Jeffrey Keyzer) writes:
> Has anyone around here ever built a smoke machine? I'd like to be
> able to make relatively oderless, non-flammable, non-toxic and non-messy
> smoke. (Something I can shine lights and lasers through, without killing
> myself and staining the carpet. ;-)
> Thanks in advance!
When I worked at Curtis Dyna Products, our theatrical fog machines used TEG
(Triethylene Glycol). Those who should know, said the fumes were harmless, I
tried to avoid breathing them anyway.
--
Jim Buchanan
c22...@kopt0017.delcoelect.com
Jim Buchanan
In article <775817...@lfheller.demon.co.uk>, Le...@lfheller.demon.co.uk (Leon Heller) writes:
> carbon dioxide) into boiling water. Of course, the water vapour produced
> is heavier than air, and will tend to lie close to the floor, unlike
> real smoke. Perhaps you could blow it around with a fan. This technique
When I was at Curtis, some of our customers actually wanted the smoke to
lie on the floor. They ran the output of the smoke machine over ordinary ice
to cool it.
The main reason dry ice fog wasn't used by most of our customers was the
need for electrical remote control. It's hard to turn off dry ice fog at
exactly the right time.
--
Jim Buchanan
c22...@kopt0017.delcoelect.com
c22...@delphi.com
'73 BMW R75/5 "Frau Bluecher"
Matt Albright
Don't know how (if) this relates, but one of the ingredients in Dr. Pepper
is polyethylene glycol. I would guess that this isn't very harmful (and
could actually be the same thing... tri- could = poly-).
matt
ma...@isp.csg.mot.com
but of course the main ingredient of
antifreeze is ethylene glycol...
Patrick Arnold
jsev...@spd.dsccc.com "John Sevinsky" writes:
A couple of years ago I designed a similar device. I used a 1200W cooker ring
element, with about 12 feet of car brake tubing coiled on top and underneath
it, following the coil of the element. I then cast the completed unit in a
block of aluminum, using about 3kg. There was a 3 inch length of tubing left
out for the nozzle, and about a foot left out for the intake. The thermostat
is a type K thermocouple, run through a comparator to control a solid state
relay powering the element. This is set to switch off at about 450 deg. C.
I used a car washer pump with a bypass valve to regulate the flow. The block
is in a grounded metal case packed with about 3 inches of mineral wool, which
provides excellent insulation. I put a thermal fuse on the intake pipe, about
4 or 5 inches up from the block. This cuts the power if the block overheats.
Overall, the performance was excellent, far in excess of most commercial fog
machines. The block heats up very fast, and once at the correct temperature
will sustain a heavy fog output indefinately. The thing has so much thermal
inertia it never cools down while pumping smoke fluid through it.
The only problem with this design is that it does not completely vapourise
the fluid going through it, with the result that it sprays a bit out the
nozzle. My next design will incorporate a couple of expansion chambers inside
the element to eliminate this problem.
The total cost of this device was about 50 UKP (about 75$ US), much less than
any comparable commercial product.
Patrick.
--
Patrick Arnold - Creative Realities Ltd.
p...@reality.demon.co.uk
Any Opinions(tm) in this message are mine unless stated otherwise!
Jim Buchanan
Yep, I was thinking that. And anti-freeze sure makes pretty white smoke
when it gets into the combustion chamber of an engine (former owner of
Chrysler turbo 2.2 head-gasket eater...)
That's not the really scary part, many of our machines were intended to
spray or fog pesticides. Sometimes (often) when one came back from a
customer, it would be covered in an oily sludge of unknown chemicals. I
wouldn't allow them in the engineering lab in this shape. Some of the old
time employees thought I was too worried about prissy little safety rules,
but at least I don't have any mysterious medical problems :-)
Patrick Arnold
ma...@isp.csg.mot.com "Matt Albright" writes:
> Don't know how (if) this relates, but one of the ingredients in Dr. Pepper
> is polyethylene glycol. I would guess that this isn't very harmful (and
> could actually be the same thing... tri- could = poly-).
>
> matt
> ma...@isp.csg.mot.com
> but of course the main ingredient of
> antifreeze is ethylene glycol...
I have the safety data sheets here for ICI PolyEthylene Glycol. Summarised,
it is as follows.
" 2. Composition/information on ingredients
Polyoxyethylene Glycol
Hazardous Ingredients
Contains no hazardous ingredients.
10. Stability and reactivity
Hazardous reactions Can react with strong bases/acids/oxidising
agents.
11. Toxicological Information
Inhalation: The hazard from inhalation of vapour is
negligible.
Skin contact: Unlikely to cause skin irritation.
Eye contact: Unlikely to cause eye irritation.
Ingestion: Unlikely to be hazardous if swallowed.
Long term exposure: No known hazards are associated with the use
of this material.
No occupational exposure limit assigned. "
The list of the things that PEG is used in is very long. It includes such
things as skin care preparations, suntan creams and gels, makeup, lipstick,
soap, deodorants, aftershave, toothpaste, ink, suppositories, etc. It's a VERY
common chemical! In fact, one of the things this particular brand is graded
for is good taste, as well as physiological safety.
Hope this is of interest.
William
Just because PEG is safe, don't assume that Ethylene glycol must be safe
as well. Antifreeze (EG) comes with lots of warnings about keeping your
pet out of it, since it tastes "sweet", but is not at all harmless!
Here's some stuff from the MSDS sheet for Ethylene Glycol (available via
Gopher from atlas.chem.utah.edu, by the way!)
PRODUCT NAME: ETHYLENE GLYCOL
FORMULA: HOCH2CH2OH
FORMULA WT: 62.07
CAS NO.: 107-21-1
NIOSH/RTECS NO.: KW2975000
COMMON SYNONYMS: 1,2-ETHANEDIOL; EG; GLYCOL; 1,2-DIHYDROXYETHANE
PRODUCT CODES: 5387,9140,L715,9300
EFFECTIVE: 11/25/86
REVISION #02
:
:
PRECAUTIONARY LABEL STATEMENTS
WARNING
CAUSES IRRITATION
HARMFUL OR FATAL IF SWALLOWED
AVOID CONTACT WITH EYES, SKIN, CLOTHING.
KEEP IN TIGHTLY CLOSED CONTAINER. WASH THOROUGHLY AFTER HANDLING.
:
:
TLV LISTED DENOTES CEILING LIMIT.
THRESHOLD LIMIT VALUE (TLV/TWA): 125 MG/M3 ( 50 PPM)
TOXICITY: LD50 (ORAL-RAT)(MG/KG) - 4700
LD50 (IPR-RAT)(MG/KG) - 5010
LD50 (SKN-RABBIT) (G/KG) - 19.5
LD50 (IV-RAT) (MG/KG) - 3260
EFFECTS OF OVEREXPOSURE
INHALATION OF VAPORS MAY CAUSE HEADACHE, NAUSEA, VOMITING, DIZZINESS,
DROWSINESS, IRRITATION OF RESPIRATORY TRACT, AND LOSS OF CONSCIOUSNESS.
LIQUID MAY BE IRRITATING TO SKIN AND EYES.
SKIN ABSORPTION MAY BE HARMFUL.
INGESTION MAY CAUSE NAUSEA, VOMITING, HEADACHES, DIZZINESS,
GASTROINTESTINAL IRRITATION.
INGESTION MAY BE FATAL.
CHRONIC EFFECTS OF OVEREXPOSURE MAY INCLUDE DAMAGE TO KIDNEYS, LIVER,
LUNGS, BLOOD, OR CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM.
Don Pomplun
first place. My interest was that it would seem to male a sufficiently
scary experience for a car or home burglar alarm. It would be nice, as
mentioned earlier, if it didn't kill the dog or stain the carpet.
I saw something the other day that was sort of a recipe for cold smoke that
went:
titanium tetrachloride + ammonium hydroxide ---> titanium dioxide +
ammonium chloride particulate.
don't know how wicked that stuff would be, or how expensive.
BTW where do you buy polyethylene glycol ? ?
Jeffrey Keyzer
writes:
between Muriatic Acid and household Ammonia are? (When two fine mists are
mixed.) It produces pretty nice smoke, but I fear that a large amount of
Chlorine gas could be present in it. Before I poison myself, what is this
stuff?
---------------
Jeff Keyzer
Jeffrey...@sacbbx.com
Simon Lee Jansen
while ago on a program called Beyond 2000 they had a story about a security
system some guy in England had invented. It was designed to be used in shops
and worked by basically filling the room with a very thick white smoke very
quickly when the alarm was triggered. I guess the idea was if the thief could
not see he wouldn't steal anything. I specifically remember them saying the
system worked by vapourising glycol but they didn't specify what type. They
did mention however that the smoke was totally harmless and totally dissapated
without leaving any sort of residue. I don't think it actually took very much
of the liquid to produce vast amounts of smoke.
Hope this helps.
Simon Jansen
Richard Steven Walz
Indeed, the 90 molar variety of PEG is used as a sexual lubricant under a
number of brand names, "Probe" being one. Another interesting use is as a
laxative!!! The right amount of this stuff in water and you feel like you
are drinking brake fluid and EVERYTHING comes out all the way down the
line! They use it for colonoscopies! Unfortunately, I know this personally!
Tastes terrible in some concentrations with whatever they add to it for
that, if anything. My container just said PEG (PolyEthyleneGlycol). I have
no explanation for why his formulation above says polyOXYethylene glycol!
-Steve Walz rst...@armory.com
William J. Beaty
: In <pomplun-10...@k2hug.llnl.gov>, pom...@llnl.gov (Don Pomplun)
: writes:
: > I missed the original post as to why WE are trying to make smoke in the
: > first place. My interest was that it would seem to male a sufficiently
: > scary experience for a car or home burglar alarm. It would be nice, as
: > mentioned earlier, if it didn't kill the dog or stain the carpet.
(snip)
: On a similar note, does anyone know what the byproducts of a reaction
: between Muriatic Acid and household Ammonia are? (When two fine mists are
: mixed.) It produces pretty nice smoke, but I fear that a large amount of
: Chlorine gas could be present in it. Before I poison myself, what is this
: stuff?
Ammonium Chloride, but I don't know if there are any other byproducts
in there too.
Professional smoke machines use oil dripped onto a hot electrical
element. I suspect that the oil evaporates, then recondenses as a
mist of oil droplets. Check the yellow pages for Theatrical suppliers
or lighting suppliers. There are a number of different companies making
them.
Ever played around with an ultrasonic humidifier? They don't make
great quantities of smoke, put you CAN modify the device to put
out a cloud of mist that's so dense it pours like milk. It looks
like CO2 fog. Just open the water well cover, close up the fan vent
with foil, poke a 1/8" hole in the foil, then put the cover on and
run it normally. The insides will fill up, and a wave of dense
"fluid" will overflow and pour across the table!
Patrick Arnold
> On a similar note, does anyone know what the byproducts of a reaction
> between Muriatic Acid and household Ammonia are? (When two fine mists are
> mixed.) It produces pretty nice smoke, but I fear that a large amount of
> Chlorine gas could be present in it. Before I poison myself, what is this
> stuff?
The smoke produced is a cloud of very finely powdered Ammonium Chloride, which
isn't really toxic. It is used in some soldering fluxes, in electrolytic
capacitors, etc. I would still advise caution using such a reaction to produce
smoke, however, and try not to inhale it.
Patrick Arnold
pom...@llnl.gov "Don Pomplun" writes:
Neither Ammonium Chloride or Titanium dioxide are particularly toxic, but I
would not advise breathing them if at all possible.
PEG is generally available from industrial chemical suppliers, but probably
only in quite large amounts, ie 45 gallon drums, etc.
Steve Lupton
I'd like to add some input to this subject if no-one minds.
I work for a company which supplies lighting and sound equipment into
night clubs.
The oil based smoke machines mentioned by someone earlier in this thread
are now all but extinct. The smoke generated by these machines very
quickly irritated peoples eyes, and didn't smell too nice either. In
addition to this, they were relatively expensive to run.
These days, the machines are a lot cheaper, as are the consumables.
The machines are very simple. They consist of an aluminium chamber with
two holes in it. One hole is about 15mm the other about 0.2mm. Into the
larger hole, a heating element is passed. This will typically be around
1000W. Through the smaller hole, a fluid is passed. The fluid is pumped
straight from the container using a cheap plastic pump of the kind used
for a car windscreen washer. As the fluid passes through the heating
chamber (which is thermostatically controlled), it comes out as smoke.
If the temperature is too high, the fluid burns, and if it is too cold,
the fluid remains wet as it comes out, so the temperature is quite
critical. On the more expensive machines, it is monitored by means
of a thermocouple and electronics. On the cheaper machines it is by
means of a bimetallic strip.
The fluid is available in many fragrances ranging from apples to famous
brand perfumes. It leaves no residue, and is non toxic. (You can actually
drink it - although it doesn't taste too good!)
Unfortunately, I cannot be more specific with what the fluid is actually
composed of.
Price wise, a smoke machine can be bought for around 150 UK pounds, and
five litres of the fluid costs 20 UK pounds. It lasts a very long time -
even a nightclub open 4 nights a week will only go through 5 litres
once a month.
They are commonly used as security measures nowadays. We have rigged up
one of our bigger machines to a PIR in the showroom, and once triggered
it will push out smoke continuously until reset by a keyswitch. In less
than 20 seconds, you can't see your hand in front of your face, so it is
very effective. Although I missed the beginning of this thread, it is
this subject which originally brought up the smoke machine enquiries.
If anyone is interested, I have reasonably large stocks of heating
elements, chambers, pumps, thermostats/thermocouples etc. Due to the
fact that you're mixing fluid, heat and electronics in one box, the
machines are not the most reliable things in the world, and a large
supply of spares is always in stock! I repair one or two every week.
Tomorrow, I will ring the distributor of the fluid to see if they will
tell me what it is. I have a suspicion that it's some kind of off the
shelf chemical because when I went to their warehouse, there were large
drums in there from ICI - although at the time I didn't think to look
what was on the labels.
Hope this has helped!
Kind regards,
--
Steve Lupton,
Bradford, England St...@stevelup.demon.co.uk
Thomas Clarke
way to make smoke :-)
In a humanities course we had to make an art object. So I got
an old mini box with lots of holes from provious projects, mounted
it on a nice piece of wood. Wired it with an AC cord, a toggle
switch, and a 2200 ohm 1/2 watt carbon resistor in series. On
the wood base was a nicely lettered sign:
"Plug me in. Turn me on."
(It was the sixties)
If you did the 5 watts into the resistor chared it nicely, making
smoke for a little while - I only tested it briefly.
I got an A, but when I saw the professor next year he said he
was afraid to follow the instructions :-)
Maybe I should have gone to New York and become an artist.
I can se it now, new multi-sensory art-form at the Museum of
Modern Art :-)
Tom Clarke