Oiling a hard drive?
Eric Kotz
I've got a Western Digital 30GB 5400 RPM hard drive I installed in my
TiVo over a year ago and just recently the replacement drive has failled to
work properly-it has trouble spinning up. This drive is out of warranty.
As it's only in a TiVo and not storing any terribly important data, I
thought, let's see if we can get it working. I have access to clean
rooms-how clean a clean room do I need to be in when I open up the drive? I
figure I'm going to try oiling it-what kind of oil should I use? Any other
thoughts?
Thanks,
Eric Kotz
newsg...@erickotz.com
Michael A. Terrell
>
> Hi all
> I've got a Western Digital 30GB 5400 RPM hard drive I installed in my
> TiVo over a year ago and just recently the replacement drive has failled to
> work properly-it has trouble spinning up. This drive is out of warranty.
> As it's only in a TiVo and not storing any terribly important data, I
> thought, let's see if we can get it working. I have access to clean
> figure I'm going to try oiling it- what kind of oil should I use? Any other
Hard drives use sealed instrumentation ball bearings. Oil is one of
the last things you want inside that sealed housing. You might as well
pour it on the platters, because it will evaporate wherever you put it,
and condense on everything inside the housing. Replace the drive, but
keep the board in case you find another with the same model number. A
lot of failures are electrical, and sometimes you get lucky.
--
Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
Mike Russell
I wouldn't worry about a clean room for an experiment like this.
You've got nothing to lose - pop the top off, spin it up, and see if you can
spot the problem.
I've run drives indefinitely - weeks or months with the top off, or covered
only by a clear sheet of plexiglass.
Bearings will make a lot of noise long before they cause momentary startup
problems. Look for a sticking head in the landing area, an open motor
winding, or a problem with the motor spinup circuitry.
--
Mike Russell
http://www.zocalo.net/~mgr
http://geigy.2y.net
g0mem
"Eric Kotz" <newsg...@erickotz.com> wrote in message
news:gr8Q9.40611$VA5.7...@news1.news.adelphia.net...
I had a harddisk that used to squeak, so I took the top of and filled it
with used engine-oil. The drive never squeaked again :-)
Mike Turner
G0MEM
MechCD
"g0mem" <isembard...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fagQ9.7317$Lj6....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
Andrew Kohlsmith
That's not the point... it never squeaked again. :-)
Regards,
Andrew
Mike Berger
drill a small hold above the motor spindle and inject the oil with a syringe.
Joe
Some can sound quite funny, 2 of mine sounded like shooting galleries on the
last spindown
Call WD up and send it back, they are pretty good people
"Eric Kotz" <newsg...@erickotz.com> wrote in message
news:gr8Q9.40611$VA5.7...@news1.news.adelphia.net...
g0mem
"MechCD" <mec...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:E1jQ9.510141$WL3.131998@rwcrnsc54...
> I bet it never read data ever again either! LOL
> > I had a harddisk that used to squeak, so I took the top of and filled it
> > with used engine-oil. The drive never squeaked again :-)
> >
> > Mike Turner
> > G0MEM
It had difficulty with data access before I filled it with used motor-oil.
And for some reason the access time was a bit slower aswell. Must have been
the damping effect of the oil. Next time I shall use new 10-40 grade
motor-oil.
Mike Turner
G0MEM
Mike Russell
> Regular sewing machine oil should be fine. Rather than opening the
> drive, just drill a small hold above the motor spindle and inject the
> oil with a syringe.
Funny ha ha, but not that funny compared to the motor oil joke.
Are you sure you're not talking to an inexperienced person, maybe someone's
kid, who might actually do what you say?
Eric Kotz
about drilling the whole (was about to post a "ummm, not exactly a good
idea"
Do I think I'm going to succeed at this? Not really. However, the drive is
useless in the condition it is in now, so I might as well give it a shot.
Eric Kotz
newsg...@erickotz.com
"Mike Russell" <ge...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:CFmQ9.2425$AR2.19...@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
Eric Kotz
Additionally, this never used to to do it.
I allready called WD-the drive's out of warranty, so there's nothing they'll
do.
Thanks,
Eric Kotz
newsg...@erickotz.com
"Joe" <joe...@NOSPAMverizon.net> wrote in message
news:ytlQ9.16338$Ab.1...@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
Andrew Kohlsmith
> about drilling the whole (was about to post a "ummm, not exactly a good
> idea"
> Do I think I'm going to succeed at this? Not really. However, the drive
> is useless in the condition it is in now, so I might as well give it a
> shot.
Exactly. Remember, the drive only has to last long enough to get the data
off of it.
I've heard of people throwing the drive in the freezer (in a ziploc bag)
overnight, then dropping it "face first" onto a table... just get it
spinning, get the data off, and then toss the drive.
"Face first" meaning the part that would be facing you if it were mounted in
a 5 1/4" or 3 1/2" bay.
Regards,
Andrew
Henry Mydlarz
first put a slight amount of solvent (half a drop or so) into the bearing,
then spin it, to release the jam. Then place an absolutely tiny droplet of
very light oil. Do not use an oil can. I would suggest inserting a pin into
the oil container, then touching the tip against the bearing.
Having said that, I wish you luck - and a Happy New year.
Henry Mydlarz
Melbourne
Australia
"Eric Kotz" <newsg...@erickotz.com> wrote in message
news:KinQ9.41156$VA5.8...@news1.news.adelphia.net...
Henry Mydlarz
angle grinders, but not producing any errors.
Henry Mydlarz
Melbourne
Australia
"Joe" <joe...@NOSPAMverizon.net> wrote in message
news:ytlQ9.16338$Ab.1...@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
James Sweet
way to get to the bearings on most modern drives without completely
disasembling the disc stack, at which point you may as well throw it away.
"Andrew Kohlsmith" <akohlsm...@mixdown.org> wrote in message
news:4610269.Q...@mixdown.org...
Hm
surface and destroy the drive.
This is a common problem with older drives and is called "stiction" it is
due to the heads binding to the platter surface when left for a period. To
"free" up the platter/head binding grab the drive in one hand and rotate
rapidly using the inertia of the spindle motor and platters against the body
of the drive. Apply power to see if the drive spins up, repeat process if
it doesn't. Once the drive is up and running get the data off it and trash
it as the problem will always recur.
Best of luck.
"Eric Kotz" <newsg...@erickotz.com> wrote in message
news:gr8Q9.40611$VA5.7...@news1.news.adelphia.net...
Eric Kotz
to spin up "one last time"
This drive was in my TiVo-there's nothing on it I particullarly care about
(maybe a couple episodes of Enterprise and that's about it) I was just sorta
hoping I could resurrect this drive, as opposed to purchasing a new one.
Eric Kotz
newsg...@erickotz.com
"Andrew Kohlsmith" <akohlsm...@mixdown.org> wrote in message
news:4610269.Q...@mixdown.org...
Apparatus
drives are vacuum sealed. The hard drive would not last long.
- Apparatus
Laserhelper
>way to get to the bearings on most modern drives without completely
>disasembling the disc stack, at which point you may as well throw it away
Just taking the cover off by itself will cause problems. All it takes is one
small spec of dust to cause a head crash.
When the cover is removed, you must essentially run the drive without turning
it off. Not a problem if you are going to back that data up to another drive
and dispose of the old one, but you must be careful not to allow anything to
get into the drive while it is running in its exposed state. - Reinhart
Laserhelper
>drives are vacuum sealed. The hard drive would not last long.
I do not believe that the drives are vaccum sealed. However, the insides of a
hard disk is a sealed dustless environment. These disks have ventilation
ports, believe it or not. These ports have a filter that keeps foreign objects
from entering the drive. The idea is to prevent the drive from building up
internal pressure during operation as the drive warms up.
When drives wear out, it's usually caused by metallic dust from the platters,
scraped away from the landing zone by the head floaters.
The floaters are designed to float on a cusion of air when the platters are
spinning. These are what maintain the optimum distance between the heads and
the platter surface. When platter rotation slows down enough, the floaters
will actually make contact with the platter surfaces. (This cushion is
extremely small, so even a spec of dust can easily wedge between the floater
and the platter and cause a head crash!) Before that happens, the heads must
park in a landing zone to prevent damaging segments of the drive that contain
data.
Older hard disks, particularly those that are MFM type, used stepper motors to
move the heads back and forth. You had to run a program that would park the
heads before you turned the computer off.
Modern hard disks use voice coil actuators that are spring loaded. When the
actuator powers down, the spring kicks the heads into the landing zone
automatically. - Reinhart
Mjolinor
motors to
> move the heads back and forth. You had to run a program that would park
the
> heads before you turned the computer off.
>
> Modern hard disks use voice coil actuators that are spring loaded. When
the
> actuator powers down, the spring kicks the heads into the landing zone
> automatically. - Reinhart
I pulled lots apart and have never seen one with a spring in. They have
allways used the residual power to move the heads onto the park peg
completely off the platters.
Stiction is the most common cause but I have mended them by replacing the
drive chip for the main spindle where the disc wouldn't spin if it stopped
in a particular position.
Bill Jr
recommended.
These drives are only in the $50-$70 range.
I would personally prefer the piece of mind with a new one installed.
Bill Jr
"Eric Kotz" <newsg...@erickotz.com> wrote in message
news:xruQ9.41591$VA5.8...@news1.news.adelphia.net...
John Freeman
Is there a format required? If so how is this done? I would like to
replase the 40GB drive in my set with an 80GB, is this possible?
John
=======================================
Bob Shuman
I'd appreciate hearing if you are successful in saving the Tivo by
installing a new drive. The reason I ask is that I understand the
"lifetime" service fee is considered null if the unit fails (lifetime of the
unit). Also, isn't there some type of OS software that would need to be
recovered and put back on the new drive? I guess my basic question is where
is the serial number (service number) stored? I figured it was on the hard
drive, but maybe it is somewhere in firmware?
I just purchased a Tivo and lifetime service, and would like to know if it
will be worth repairing once it dies down the road.
Bob
"Eric Kotz" <newsg...@erickotz.com> wrote in message
news:xruQ9.41591$VA5.8...@news1.news.adelphia.net...
Mjolinor
"John Freeman" <edf...@concentric.net> wrote in message
news:3E131991...@concentric.net...
> Speaking of TiVo, how does one go about replacing the drive in the set.
> Is there a format required? If so how is this done? I would like to
> replase the 40GB drive in my set with an 80GB, is this possible?
> John
> =======================================
It is possible using tools that have been written by various people. An
understanding of Linux makes it easier, the best place to start is probably
the tivo forums on
Mjolinor
"Bob Shuman" <resh...@removethis.lucent.com> wrote in message
news:auv5j2$i...@netnews.proxy.lucent.com...
> Eric,
>
> I'd appreciate hearing if you are successful in saving the Tivo by
> installing a new drive. The reason I ask is that I understand the
> "lifetime" service fee is considered null if the unit fails (lifetime of
the
> unit). Also, isn't there some type of OS software that would need to be
> recovered and put back on the new drive? I guess my basic question is
where
> is the serial number (service number) stored? I figured it was on the
hard
> drive, but maybe it is somewhere in firmware?
>
> I just purchased a Tivo and lifetime service, and would like to know if it
> will be worth repairing once it dies down the road.
The tivo drive images are available on the net at
ftp://ftp.abs.net/tivo/Backups/
Tivo serial is on the motherboard in the crypto chip not on the hard drive.
Engineer
I don't think so. The heads "fly" on a thin "air" layer
above the disk - but this "air" may be dry nitrogen.
Disclaimer: HD's are not my field!
Cheers,
Roger
--
Roger Jones, P.Eng.
Thornhill, Ontario,
Canada.
"29 years in Quebec - took the freedom train"
---------------------------------------------
Laserhelper
>allways used the residual power to move the heads onto the park peg
>completely off the platters.
What brands of drives do you tear apart?
This particular way that the heads park, on pegs at the sides instead of a
landing zone on the platters, makes it sounds like you've worked mainly with
IBM drives.
I've worked with WD, Quantum, Seagate, Maxtor, and even some older Conner
drives with voicecoil actuators, and those have heads that park on a landing
zone on the platters.
Even ran a few with the cover off (those drives were too old to be useful
anyway, including drives as new as 1998) and all of them landed in a landing
zone on platters. - Reinhart
Mjolinor
"Laserhelper" <laser...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030101165703...@mb-mj.aol.com...
The old MFM and IDE drives land on a landing zone near the centre of the
drive (track 0). New hitachi, ibm and others, laptop and 3.5 drives (newer
than I guess about 99 or so) all park off the platters completely.
Thomas
> I don't think so. The heads "fly" on a thin "air" layer
> above the disk - but this "air" may be dry nitrogen.
It is definitely air. There is a small filter behind a hole, with a 'do not
cover' label nearby.
There is also a kind of filter inside - looks like it is filled with an
absorbent, probably to keep oil contamination from the platters.
Earlier drives (megabytes) had flat filter sheets, never drivers (gigs) have a
small sausage as filter, somwhere in a corner where it catches airflow.
Thomas
Eric Kotz
sorta a, if I could get it to work, I would project.
I'll probally toss a 45GB WD drive I had lying around in it.
Eric Kotz
newsg...@erickotz.com
"Bill Jr" <bi...@nospam.usa2net.net> wrote in message
news:hBDQ9.44646$j8.11...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
Eric Kotz
http://www.tivofaq.com
http://www.tivocommunity.com/
More than you EVER wanted to know.
> Is there a format required?
Yes, also, the OS must be copied to the disk.
If so how is this done? I would like to
> replase the 40GB drive in my set with an 80GB, is this possible?
Yes, it's possible. However, assuming you have a 1 drive unit, which is
likely, you could add the 80 to augument your existing 40GB drive for a
total of 120GB. If you are going that route, I reccomend you purchase an
additional hard drive bracket from http://www.9thtee.com to properly mount
your hard drive.
BlessTivo is something you need. Basically, if you want to add the 80 GB
drive to your tivo, for a total of 120GB, you run BlessTivo on it, plug it
in your TiVo, and you are done.
If you want to replace your 40GB drive with the 80 outright (80 GB total) it
will be a more dificult process, but certainly do-able. You have to do the
following:
Run the utility to "unlock" the drive (I don't remembe what it is called)
Boot from the linux boot floppy and use "dd" to copy the disks (I reccomend
you unplug your computer's normal hard disk to make sure you don't
accidentally erase it
I think you then have to "bless" the remaining 40 GB with BlessTivo
Put it in your TiVo and all will be well
Eric Kotz
newsg...@erickotz.com
Eric Kotz
playing around with this Tivo, so I made a copy of the original (12GB
Quantum FireBall) and put the original drive on the shelf and installed this
drive.
The serial number is tied to the hardware itself-NOT the drive.
I beleive TiVo will repair a failled unit for $99 flat rate, HOWEVER, if you
have opened the unit, all bets are off.
If your drive were to fail, you could basically copy a drive from a similar
tivo and install it in your own. The serial number is stored on the
motherboard in what has been termed "the crypto chip"
For more info, see:
http://www.tivofaq.com
http://www.tivocommunity.com/
BTW TiVo is great :-) Only problem is if you're not at home, you'll try and
pause someone else's TV and it doesn't work :-)
Eric Kotz
newsg...@erickotz.com
"Bob Shuman" <resh...@removethis.lucent.com> wrote in message
news:auv5j2$i...@netnews.proxy.lucent.com...
jonpi
very fast with great success. the bearing was easily accessable by
prying off the aluminum cover that was pressed in over it. I used what
is referred to as turbine oil which contains no waxes and therefore will
not cake up and get sticky. I then stuck the cover back on and have
about 12 hours of totally quiet trouble free operation.
what started out as just a chance to retrieve data, turned out to be a
complete success and i was somewhat surprised.
john
corvallis oregon
jonpi
bearing cover is on bottom usually..don't need to open the top
turbine oil...no wax content
john
jonpi
there is a filtered vent
Lee Babcock
>
> "MechCD" <mec...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:E1jQ9.510141$WL3.131998@rwcrnsc54...
> > I bet it never read data ever again either! LOL
>
> > > I had a harddisk that used to squeak, so I took the top of and filled it
> > > with used engine-oil. The drive never squeaked again :-)
> > >
> > > Mike Turner
> > > G0MEM
>
> It had difficulty with data access before I filled it with used motor-oil.
> And for some reason the access time was a bit slower aswell. Must have been
> the damping effect of the oil. Next time I shall use new 10-40 grade
> motor-oil.
>
> Mike Turner
> G0MEM
Back in the 40's, we used to use goose oil in the hard drives!
Lee
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
Lee Babcock
Modern hard drive heads do NOT contact the platters! They are a fixed
distance from the platters. When they park, they go to a park position,
but the heads don't rest on anything.
As for the stiction that has been mentioned, the root cause is
overheating of the drive causing a gassing off of vapours from the
components. This in turn condenses on the platters and the heads that
physically parked would stick if left off for a time. We used to get
old drives working that had stiction by putting them in an oven at about
150 degrees for half hour and then power them up. Copy data and then
trash the drive. Newer drives rarely have stiction.
Regards
Michael A. Terrell
Yeah, but back then they only ran 30 RPM, and were made out of balsa
wood.
--
Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
Jim Adney
wrote:
>I then stuck the cover back on and have
>about 12 hours of totally quiet trouble free operation.
>
>what started out as just a chance to retrieve data, turned out to be a
>complete success and i was somewhat surprised.
I applaud your effort and hope for your continued success, but 12
hours really hardly means anything.
When you were in there, did it appear that there were any remnants of
grease or do you believe the original lubrication was oil? I'd really
be surprised at the latter, because it is really hard to keep oil in a
bearing, while grease will dispense oil for years.
-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney jad...@vwtype3.org
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------
jonpi
cap was sealed on pretty good. i had to pry a bit with a tiny screwdriver
this drive in my laptop is a hitachi 227 or whatever...a common 4 gig one
all of a sudden it started wining and it was getting louder...i shut it
right down...a new drive was obtained and only 2 months later did i stick
it on my main machine and power it up...for 5 secs...it sounded like a
terribly loud and dry bearing...like i said i did not expect success but
the oil went in and i worried about it getting through to the disks,
but...never a wine again...i copied the complete system and ran it alot for
a few weeks but now it is just a test drive, with no bad sectors, and an
oiler of sorts i guess...like a really old motor...hah
i stuck the cap back on without really trying to seal it in any definite
way for now...i was very happy
here's another no success story
i had a conner 1275 from a customer with geneology data on it
it died with the common "i can't find myself" type clicks and whires.
i found a perfectly good identical drive and proceeded to "make one good
one out of two" the problem was not in the board but in the head part...it
was very easy to swap the head/chip assy. since the magnet nicely swings
out of the way and the head/chip assy easily swapped
i blocked the heads apart using little pieces of wire insulator to be able
to smoothly swing the heads back onto the disks (2)...and voila!
nothing...oh well. i tried...and...i'd like to try this again...by the way,
swapping back to make the original perfectly good drive gave the same
nothing...
BUT
i learned something
i still don't know, however, what it was i learned
john
Jim Adney wrote:
--
thanks
John
ps. reply to my earthlink account
same username at earthlink.net