Fuel flow meter for cars .. ?
Geir Holmavatn
Have all those good ol' 2" fuel flow instruments with separate sensor
been wept off the market and replaced by cruise control computers..?
Anyone knowing where to find a fuel-flow meter with sensor for gasoline
with display in European units: milliliters per minute or liters per
hour..?
Thanks for tips and comments
geir
Dave Plowman (News)
They're not any use with injection as the fuel runs in a loop sending
unused back to the tank. And at high pressure. The normal way these days
is to count injection pulses and duration.
--
*Can vegetarians eat animal crackers?
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Trevor Wilson
"Geir Holmavatn" <gei...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5v1sttF...@mid.individual.net...
**Here is an article published in and Australian magazine which describes a
car computer:
http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_102510/article.html
None of the local suppliers supports the kit any longer. However, as I
recall, the kit was designed by a contractor to the magazine. As a
consequence, that person probably can assist with stuff like sensors, PCBs,
programmed microcontrollers, et al. You will probably need to purchase the
article to ascertain the details. Or perhaps a polite email to the publisher
may elicit the contact details of the author.
Good luck. I almost built one, but found a (second hand) commercial device
at a very good price first. I do recall that the design was most impressive.
Trevor Wilson
Allodoxaphobia
> In article <5v1sttF...@mid.individual.net>,
> Geir Holmavatn <gei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Have all those good ol' 2" fuel flow instruments with separate sensor
>> been wept off the market and replaced by cruise control computers..?
>
>> Anyone knowing where to find a fuel-flow meter with sensor for gasoline
>> with display in European units: milliliters per minute or liters per
>> hour..?
>
>> Thanks for tips and comments
>
> They're not any use with injection as the fuel runs in a loop sending
> unused back to the tank. And at high pressure. The normal way these days
> is to count injection pulses and duration.
I suppose you could employ two (2) in-line sensors -- one on the supply
side, and one on the return side and subtract the return flow from the
supply flow in the u-processor. (I'm assuming the project used a
MicroChip [or similar uP) thingy.)
Jonesy
--
Marvin L Jones | jonz | W3DHJ | linux
38.24N 104.55W | @ config.com | Jonesy | OS/2
*** Killfiling google posts: <http://jonz.net/ng.htm>
Dave Plowman (News)
Allodoxaphobia <bit-b...@config.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 19:59:47 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> > In article <5v1sttF...@mid.individual.net>,
> > Geir Holmavatn <gei...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Have all those good ol' 2" fuel flow instruments with separate sensor
> >> been wept off the market and replaced by cruise control computers..?
> >
> >> Anyone knowing where to find a fuel-flow meter with sensor for
> >> gasoline with display in European units: milliliters per minute or
> >> liters per hour..?
> >
> >> Thanks for tips and comments
> >
> > They're not any use with injection as the fuel runs in a loop sending
> > unused back to the tank. And at high pressure. The normal way these
> > days is to count injection pulses and duration.
> I suppose you could employ two (2) in-line sensors -- one on the supply
> side, and one on the return side and subtract the return flow from the
> supply flow in the u-processor. (I'm assuming the project used a
> MicroChip [or similar uP) thingy.)
The site Trevor gave in a later post says it can work by either counting
injector pulses or a flow device.
> Jonesy
--
*Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't*
Trevor Wilson
"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4f614f2...@davenoise.co.uk...
> In article <slrnfoo1n4.31...@shell.config.com>,
> Allodoxaphobia <bit-b...@config.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 19:59:47 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>> > In article <5v1sttF...@mid.individual.net>,
>> > Geir Holmavatn <gei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> Have all those good ol' 2" fuel flow instruments with separate sensor
>> >> been wept off the market and replaced by cruise control computers..?
>> >
>> >> Anyone knowing where to find a fuel-flow meter with sensor for
>> >> gasoline with display in European units: milliliters per minute or
>> >> liters per hour..?
>> >
>> >> Thanks for tips and comments
>> >
>> > They're not any use with injection as the fuel runs in a loop sending
>> > unused back to the tank. And at high pressure. The normal way these
>> > days is to count injection pulses and duration.
>
>> I suppose you could employ two (2) in-line sensors -- one on the supply
>> side, and one on the return side and subtract the return flow from the
>> supply flow in the u-processor. (I'm assuming the project used a
>> MicroChip [or similar uP) thingy.)
>
> The site Trevor gave in a later post says it can work by either counting
> injector pulses or a flow device.
**Correct. It's a bit fiddly, but more accurate actually measuring the fuel
flow. I ended using the pulse counting method myself (I didn't care much for
mucking about with fuel lines), but I did have two fuel flow meters, which
came with the computer. One was plastic, the other a substantial die-cast
affair. Accuracy was pretty impressive, according to the manufacturer's
data.
Trevor Wilson
Dave Plowman (News)
Trevor Wilson <trevor@_SPAMBLOCK_rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
> > The site Trevor gave in a later post says it can work by either
> > counting injector pulses or a flow device.
> **Correct. It's a bit fiddly, but more accurate actually measuring the
> fuel flow. I ended using the pulse counting method myself (I didn't
> care much for mucking about with fuel lines), but I did have two fuel
> flow meters, which came with the computer. One was plastic, the other a
> substantial die-cast affair. Accuracy was pretty impressive, according
> to the manufacturer's data.
I must admit to being surprised. Both my cars are injection and both use
the pulse measuring system to calculate MPG and both are very accurate.
Years ago I did have an aftermarket one that measure fuel flow and it
wasn't.
--
*Never kick a cow pat on a hot day *
Chuck
Hi,
Fuel flow is porportional to the Duty Cycle of the injector signal. A volt
meter across across an injector will give you uncalibrated fuel flow,
Assuming the time delay to open is = to the closing delay and the waveform
is square. Web search indicates typical wave form is sq. with a 70v
inductive kick. Current rise time ~1.5ms so I guess the on time is long
resulting in a positive offset. Anyone know how = the times are? The
injectors take >.6A so I'd start with a 470 ohm R and a zener or LM431 to
filter battery changes. For relative calibration: connect across battery =
100%. Good enough for my needs: check effect of tire change, syn oil, wax
job, etc..
Check http://www.robietherobot.com/storm/fuelinjectorguide.htm for injector
flow rates and discussion of on/off delay..
Chuck
James Sweet
>
> Fuel flow is porportional to the Duty Cycle of the injector signal. A
> volt
> meter across across an injector will give you uncalibrated fuel flow,
> Assuming the time delay to open is = to the closing delay and the waveform
> is square. Web search indicates typical wave form is sq. with a 70v
> inductive kick. Current rise time ~1.5ms so I guess the on time is long
> resulting in a positive offset. Anyone know how = the times are? The
> injectors take >.6A so I'd start with a 470 ohm R and a zener or LM431 to
> filter battery changes. For relative calibration: connect across battery
> =
> 100%. Good enough for my needs: check effect of tire change, syn oil, wax
> job, etc..
>
> Check http://www.robietherobot.com/storm/fuelinjectorguide.htm for
> injector
> flow rates and discussion of on/off delay..
>
Look up Megasquirt, it's a DIY fuel injection system and related sites have
all the information you could want about injector pulsewidths.
Trevor Wilson
> In article <5v34jfF...@mid.individual.net>,
> Trevor Wilson <trevor@_SPAMBLOCK_rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>> > The site Trevor gave in a later post says it can work by either
>> > counting injector pulses or a flow device.
>
>> **Correct. It's a bit fiddly, but more accurate actually measuring the
>> fuel flow. I ended using the pulse counting method myself (I didn't
>> care much for mucking about with fuel lines), but I did have two fuel
>> flow meters, which came with the computer. One was plastic, the other a
>> substantial die-cast affair. Accuracy was pretty impressive, according
>> to the manufacturer's data.
>
> I must admit to being surprised. Both my cars are injection and both use
> the pulse measuring system to calculate MPG and both are very accurate.
> Years ago I did have an aftermarket one that measure fuel flow and it
> wasn't.
**As I understand it (please note, I am not speaking from any real authority
here) no injector is perfect. Some are clogged a little. Some are clogged a
lot. Some are not clogged at all. Pumps are subject to wear. As a
consequence, the BEST way to measure actual fuel consumption, is to measure
the amount of fuel used, rather than inferring how much fuel SHOULD be going
into the cylinders.
Having said all that: My present car probably uses pulse measurement
techniques and the computer appears to be respectably accurate (though I've
never actually checked it).
Trevor Wilson
HapticZ
"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4f617e8...@davenoise.co.uk...
Michael A. Terrell
>
> i used to just coast down hills to gain MPG advantage ;-))
Anyone can do that. OTOH, if you can do it while going uphill... ;-)
--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.
Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
James Sweet
>
> **As I understand it (please note, I am not speaking from any real
> authority here) no injector is perfect. Some are clogged a little. Some
> are clogged a lot. Some are not clogged at all. Pumps are subject to wear.
> As a consequence, the BEST way to measure actual fuel consumption, is to
> measure the amount of fuel used, rather than inferring how much fuel
> SHOULD be going into the cylinders.
>
> Having said all that: My present car probably uses pulse measurement
> techniques and the computer appears to be respectably accurate (though
> I've never actually checked it).
All injectors should be within 5% of rated flow, or engine performance and
fuel economy will suffer. When new, they're within a percent or so, and
usually hold up pretty well. Measuring the pulsewidth should in most cases
be at least as accurate as typical flow sensors.
Dave Plowman (News)
Trevor Wilson <trevor@_SPAMBLOCK_rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
> **As I understand it (please note, I am not speaking from any real
> authority here) no injector is perfect. Some are clogged a little. Some
> are clogged a lot. Some are not clogged at all. Pumps are subject to
> wear.
Yehbut EFI systems are closed loop and if the injectors are slightly out
of spec, the ECU will compensate. If they're wildly out an inaccurate OBC
will be the least of your worries...
> As a consequence, the BEST way to measure actual fuel
> consumption, is to measure the amount of fuel used, rather than
> inferring how much fuel SHOULD be going into the cylinders.
That assumes you can make the perfect flow meter which will maintain its
performance.
> Having said all that: My present car probably uses pulse measurement
> techniques and the computer appears to be respectably accurate (though
> I've never actually checked it).
I have to log all fuel bought for tax purposes so I can do a pretty
accurate check of the overall MPG - and when I have, the OBC has been as
near as dammit spot on.
--
*Being healthy is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die.
Trevor Wilson
> In article <5v4j9eF...@mid.individual.net>,
> Trevor Wilson <trevor@_SPAMBLOCK_rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>> **As I understand it (please note, I am not speaking from any real
>> authority here) no injector is perfect. Some are clogged a little. Some
>> are clogged a lot. Some are not clogged at all. Pumps are subject to
>> wear.
>
> Yehbut EFI systems are closed loop and if the injectors are slightly out
> of spec, the ECU will compensate. If they're wildly out an inaccurate OBC
> will be the least of your worries...
**OK, here's where my ignorance begins to show. EFI systems are sort of
closed loop. However, under certain conditions, that may not be the case. At
startup, for instance. Under very heavy acceleration, for another. There are
probably other conditions where the system is not closed loop. So-called
'limp-home mode' would be another. I'm not well versed in automotive issues
to comment with great authority. I do understand a little, however.
>
>> As a consequence, the BEST way to measure actual fuel
>> consumption, is to measure the amount of fuel used, rather than
>> inferring how much fuel SHOULD be going into the cylinders.
>
> That assumes you can make the perfect flow meter which will maintain its
> performance.
**Indeed.
>
>> Having said all that: My present car probably uses pulse measurement
>> techniques and the computer appears to be respectably accurate (though
>> I've never actually checked it).
>
> I have to log all fuel bought for tax purposes so I can do a pretty
> accurate check of the overall MPG - and when I have, the OBC has been as
> near as dammit spot on.
**As has mine.
Trevor Wilson
Dave Plowman (News)
Trevor Wilson <trevor@_SPAMBLOCK_rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
> "Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:4f61ca1...@davenoise.co.uk...
> > In article <5v4j9eF...@mid.individual.net>, Trevor Wilson
> > <trevor@_SPAMBLOCK_rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
> >> **As I understand it (please note, I am not speaking from any real
> >> authority here) no injector is perfect. Some are clogged a little.
> >> Some are clogged a lot. Some are not clogged at all. Pumps are
> >> subject to wear.
> >
> > Yehbut EFI systems are closed loop and if the injectors are slightly
> > out of spec, the ECU will compensate. If they're wildly out an
> > inaccurate OBC will be the least of your worries...
> **OK, here's where my ignorance begins to show. EFI systems are sort of
> closed loop. However, under certain conditions, that may not be the
> case. At startup, for instance. Under very heavy acceleration, for
> another. There are probably other conditions where the system is not
> closed loop. So-called 'limp-home mode' would be another. I'm not well
> versed in automotive issues to comment with great authority. I do
> understand a little, however.
Yes - but a 'dribble' from an injector or injectors would have far more of
a percentage effect at cruise or low throttle conditions. Remember the
combination of depression and fuel pressure acting on the injector is a
constant. If you think of a dripping tap (faucet?) the drip is irrelevant
when the tap is fully on.
--
*Before they invented drawing boards, what did they go back to?
mike
metering system.
--
Return address is VALID!
Trevor Wilson
"mike" <spa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:BSgjj.10943$W73.4010@trnddc04...
**Then you need a fuel flow sensor.
Trevor Wilson
Dave Plowman (News)
mike <spa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What's an injector? Some of us don't have 'em and still want a diy fuel
> metering system.
Then I'd ask why. Wanting fuel metering suggests you're concerned with MPG.
Converting to injection will improve this.
--
*I don't suffer from insanity; I enjoy every minute of it.
Clint Sharp
<mike.t...@earthlink.net> writes
>HapticZ wrote:
>>
>> i used to just coast down hills to gain MPG advantage ;-))
>
>
> Anyone can do that. OTOH, if you can do it while going uphill... ;-)
>
in the highest gear and the throttle closed. Drop it out of gear or use
the clutch and it uses fuel to keep the engine spinning.
--
Clint Sharp
Michael A. Terrell
The farthest I've ever coasted downhill was about seven and a half
miles, after I ran out of gas at four in the morning.
Michael Kennedy
"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:478F99BA...@earthlink.net...
Well that obviously was not here in Florida, but sounds like an adventure.
Mike
Michael A. Terrell
>
> "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:478F99BA...@earthlink.net...
> >
> > miles, after I ran out of gas at four in the morning.
>
I was moving from Ohio to Central Florida in the late '80s. I was
driving a Chevy stepvan, and the gas gauge had quit. It was about 4:00
AM, and I had been up for over 30 hours, in an attempt to get to Florida
before my tag expired. I was in the hills of Kentucky, and was about to
pass a sign that said, "Next exit, 7 miles" when the engine sputtered
and died. To make a long story short, i made it to the exit, made a hard
right turn and coasted over a half mile to a gas station, and rolled to
a stop about 50 feet from the closest pump. Believe me, that entire
trip was a real test of my faith, in everything. I made it to my
destination about fifteen minutes before midnight, a couple miles north
of Eustis, on Hwy. 452.
cuh...@webtv.net
two barrel (or one barrel) carburetor.
A guy who lives in a house on a street behind me, he has a nice looking
1990 Chevrolet RV van with a 350 cubic inch engine and the engine has a
throttle body fuel injection thingy, for sale, $1,100.The van has about
90,000 miles on it.
I know all about how to keep my old vehicles with carburetors running
good.I am staying away from those new fangled vehicles with that
so-called ''modern technology'' stuff on them.
cuhulin
cuh...@webtv.net
there one time.A sign said, park your vehicle on the line across the
road, shut the engine off, put it out of gear, watch your vehicle coast
uphill.I did that, (1971 Chevrolet van) my vehicle coasted a few feet
uphill.Of course, I know it was/is only an optical illusion.
cuhulin
Dave Plowman (News)
<cuh...@webtv.net> wrote:
> Don't buy any kind of a vehicle that didn't come factory equipped with a
> two barrel (or one barrel) carburetor.
Why?
> A guy who lives in a house on a street behind me, he has a nice looking
> 1990 Chevrolet RV van with a 350 cubic inch engine and the engine has a
> throttle body fuel injection thingy, for sale, $1,100.The van has about
> 90,000 miles on it.
Single point injection is an extremely crude way of doing things giving
near the complexity of proper injection but with most of the disadvantages
of a carburettor. Of which there are many.
> I know all about how to keep my old vehicles with carburetors running
> good.I am staying away from those new fangled vehicles with that
> so-called ''modern technology'' stuff on them.
New fangled? Even modern type all electronic fuel injection has been
around for 30 years or so. Mechanical injection before WW2. It's not
beyond any half competent home mechanic to learn how it works and how to
fault find. But you can be sure you'll need less of that than with a carb
or two.
--
*No husband has ever been shot while doing the dishes *
cuh...@webtv.net
can't be beat! No matter with how much y'all come up with y'alls Phoney
little excuses for sucking up to fed govt's Bull Shit!
cuhulin
James Sweet
<cuh...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:10737-479...@storefull-3257.bay.webtv.net...
I hate carburetors. They're ok for lawnmowers and such, but for cars they're
sloppy imprecise Rube Goldberg-esq contraptions. On the best of days, the
fuel/air mixture will never be as precise as it will with a decent injection
system. Flooding, cold idle issues, dirty emissions, I was not sad to see
them go away.
Ask any of the guys on the Megasquirt list, after converting to injection
you immediately get a smoother running engine, more power, improved throttle
response, better gas mileage, no problems with altitude changes, it's like a
whole new car. Race cars were using injection back in the 50s, better
European cars were injected by the early 70s, American car companies were
finally dragged kicking and screaming into the 20th century in the late 80s.
Injection systems are mechanically simple and electrically consist of just a
few sensors, some wiring, relays, a pump, and a control box. If you're not
comfortable working with that stuff what are you doing on an electronics
repair group?
msg
<snip>
>>I know all about how to keep my old vehicles with carburetors running
>>good.I am staying away from those new fangled vehicles with that
>>so-called ''modern technology'' stuff on them.
<snip>
>
> Injection systems are mechanically simple and electrically consist of just a
> few sensors, some wiring, relays, a pump, and a control box. If you're not
> comfortable working with that stuff what are you doing on an electronics
> repair group?
You assume a context of the developed world with a sustained tech. base;
try maintaining modern vehicles in remote locations under extreme
conditions without benefit of spares, test jigs and proprietary
instruments. There will always be a need for simple and elegant
tech. which can be maintained with basic tools, techniques and
knowledge, not to mention the issue of EMP survivability.
Michael
msg
messages; corrected for missing attribution and line wrap.
James Sweet wrote:
> <cuh...@webtv.net> wrote in message
<snip>
>> I know all about how to keep my old vehicles with carburetors running
>> good.I am staying away from those new fangled vehicles with that
>> so-called ''modern technology'' stuff on them.
<snip>
> Injection systems are mechanically simple and electrically consist
> of just a few sensors, some wiring, relays, a pump, and a control
> box. If you're not comfortable working with that stuff what are
> you doing on an electronics repair group?
Michael A. Terrell
The Cuhulin troll does live in Mississippi. He also likes to pretend
that he's a teen age girl and uses the screen name "flowersonthewater".
He's bragged about it on several newsgroups. Thank God for kill filters.
Michael Kennedy
> Michael Kennedy wrote:
>>
>> "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> news:478F99BA...@earthlink.net...
>> >
>> > The farthest I've ever coasted downhill was about seven and a half
>> > miles, after I ran out of gas at four in the morning.
>>
>> Well that obviously was not here in Florida, but sounds like an
>> adventure.
>
>
> I was moving from Ohio to Central Florida in the late '80s. I was
> driving a Chevy stepvan, and the gas gauge had quit. It was about 4:00
> AM, and I had been up for over 30 hours, in an attempt to get to Florida
> before my tag expired. I was in the hills of Kentucky, and was about to
> pass a sign that said, "Next exit, 7 miles" when the engine sputtered
> and died. To make a long story short, i made it to the exit, made a hard
> right turn and coasted over a half mile to a gas station, and rolled to
> a stop about 50 feet from the closest pump. Believe me, that entire
> trip was a real test of my faith, in everything. I made it to my
> destination about fifteen minutes before midnight, a couple miles north
> of Eustis, on Hwy. 452.
>
Wow, thats a trip.. And you ended up about 20 minutes from my house.
Mike
Michael A. Terrell
That was the second trip. I brought 17,000 pounds of tools, parts
and test equipment with me in thwe two trips. About 1050 miles, one
way. When I decided to move, the truck's engine was siezed from sitting
for four years. A drunk driver had run out of the road and hit my car,
rammed it into the truck, and totaled both cars. The gas tank had a
seven inch long crack, someone swiped the fron grill, and the back
bumper was missing. I got the truck running for $8, and drove it a
little over 5000 miles. The body work was about $100, a used gas tank
was $50. I mad an aluminum tube grill out of scrap for another $8, and a
back bumper for 97 cents. Uhaul wanted $750 dollars for three days, one
way.
I'm still not that far away, I'm in southern Marion County.
cuh...@webtv.net
right here) from a guy in Sioux Falls,South Dakota in November 1971.He
and his wife were moving to Minneapolis and they couldn't take the car
with them.The next morning I rented a U Haul Ford truck and the guy
helped me put my car in the U Haul truck.I drove from Sioux Falls to
Jackson non stop except to have to stop for gas for the U Haul truck.
In the last few years, I have seen five cars abondoned on the street I
live on because the cars had fuel injection, or some other kinds of new
fangeled gadgets on them.One and to barrel carburetors on cars beat
throttle body/fuel injection every time.Easy and cheap for the average
shade tree mechanic to keep them running.Try that with with your fancy
throttle bodies/fuel injection vehicles.
cuhulin