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Step Recovery Diodes - a blast from the past...
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three_jeeps
Jun 11, 2019, 10:56:12 AM6/11/19
to
A colleague drops by my office toating a Tek R293 Programmable pulse generator and power supply and asks "Can I use a power supply?" followed by, I haven't turned it on in 35 years....
Having never seen one of these before (its circa 1966) and thought it might be an interesting thing to restore, even though I have never and probably will never have use for such a thing.
Looking through the manual scanning for the semiconductor parts list (and looking for the 'special' Tek parts, I see designations on a number of diodes: Snap Diode, Check. No number of any sort.
I never heard of one of these so google is my friend....(aka snap off diode or charge-storage diode or memory varactor) studied the schematics of the pulse generator a bit and realized what a neat device and interesting circuit design.
It probably has a lot of bad parts, given the age, and while repair would be quite a learning experience, my basis questions are:
1) how to determine the snap diode characteristics for this unique tek part?
2) and what are the chances of finding a reasonable substitute?
Assuming one of the snap diodes in the unit still functions, I could use a curve tracer and get some general parameters: Breakover voltage, approximate current range, reverse blocking voltage, leakage, etc. But determining the switch time would be critical in this application as that dictates the pulse characteristics.
Another thing that is of interest is this statement from Wikipedia:
"The main phenomenon used in SRDs is the storage of electric charge during forward conduction, which is present in all semiconductor junction diodes and is due to finite lifetime of minority carriers in semiconductors."
Finite lifetime of minority carriers....I assume when switching from forward conduction to reverse the minority carriers are quickly reversed in their flow given the abrupt change of voltage polarity?
J
Having never seen one of these before (its circa 1966) and thought it might be an interesting thing to restore, even though I have never and probably will never have use for such a thing.
Looking through the manual scanning for the semiconductor parts list (and looking for the 'special' Tek parts, I see designations on a number of diodes: Snap Diode, Check. No number of any sort.
I never heard of one of these so google is my friend....(aka snap off diode or charge-storage diode or memory varactor) studied the schematics of the pulse generator a bit and realized what a neat device and interesting circuit design.
It probably has a lot of bad parts, given the age, and while repair would be quite a learning experience, my basis questions are:
1) how to determine the snap diode characteristics for this unique tek part?
2) and what are the chances of finding a reasonable substitute?
Assuming one of the snap diodes in the unit still functions, I could use a curve tracer and get some general parameters: Breakover voltage, approximate current range, reverse blocking voltage, leakage, etc. But determining the switch time would be critical in this application as that dictates the pulse characteristics.
Another thing that is of interest is this statement from Wikipedia:
"The main phenomenon used in SRDs is the storage of electric charge during forward conduction, which is present in all semiconductor junction diodes and is due to finite lifetime of minority carriers in semiconductors."
Finite lifetime of minority carriers....I assume when switching from forward conduction to reverse the minority carriers are quickly reversed in their flow given the abrupt change of voltage polarity?
J
John Robertson
Jun 11, 2019, 11:15:13 AM6/11/19
to
bitsaver.org for the Master Electronics Catalogs from that time for
specs. Sound like fast recovery diodes to me...
However in most cases running an ESR meter (Like Bob Parker's Blue ESR
meter kit) over the various capacitors will find a few bad ones at which
point the power supply may well work. Caps and electrical connections
are the weak link in electronics...
Just was playing with one of Bob's latest prototype ESR meter designs
yesterday which is a talking ESR meter and working on a sound board with
low volume. Having the meter talk to me (Bob's voice) was handy in that
I didn't have to take my eyes off the job and things went very quickly.
The meter going down to 0.001 ohms is handy too...
Nag Bob if you want to see these in production, he isn't sure there is a
market for a talking ESR meter...
He is currently working on this version of a simple ESR meter kit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o25gLeakcbM
John :-#)#
--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd.
MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3
(604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
Phil Hobbs
Jun 11, 2019, 2:29:08 PM6/11/19
to
Tek SD24 TDR sampling head, SRDs are used as high-order frequency
multipliers. You can still get them from Microsemi and maybe
elsewhere--Arrow has 433 Microsemi GC2510 devices in stock.
One of my first engineering tasks back in 1981 was to rebias an X-band
waveguide frequency multiplier using an SRD--we were changing from a
Microwave Associates device to a Gigahertz Devices one.
The SRD was self-biased with a thick-film conductive ink drop on the
side of the ceramic package. I used a soft pencil to make the resistive
shunt on the new device, and varied it till I found the value that
produced the highest efficiency.
The job was complicated by the tendency of the graphite to ablate. ;)
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
Jeff Liebermann
Jun 11, 2019, 7:41:28 PM6/11/19
to
On Tue, 11 Jun 2019 08:15:05 -0700, John Robertson <sp...@flippers.com>
wrote:
>Just was playing with one of Bob's latest prototype ESR meter designs
>yesterday which is a talking ESR meter and working on a sound board with
>low volume. Having the meter talk to me (Bob's voice) was handy in that
>I didn't have to take my eyes off the job and things went very quickly.
>The meter going down to 0.001 ohms is handy too...
>
>Nag Bob if you want to see these in production, he isn't sure there is a
>market for a talking ESR meter...
"Prototype "Blue2" talking ESR meter"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYbsDlQ8nPg> (1:23)
It might be more useful it also announced if the capacitor was good,
marginal, or bad.
There are some talking multimeters available, mostly for the blind.
<http://www.mastrogippo.it/2014/03/a-talking-multimeter/>
I played with one such home built meter that was built around a
Speak-and-Spell toy.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speak_%26_Spell_(toy)>
I found the talking feature most useful when I couldn't read the
multimeter LED display in bright sunlight, such as working under the
hood of my car. I don't think there's a need for a talking ESR meter
that works in bright sunlight.
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
wrote:
>Just was playing with one of Bob's latest prototype ESR meter designs
>yesterday which is a talking ESR meter and working on a sound board with
>low volume. Having the meter talk to me (Bob's voice) was handy in that
>I didn't have to take my eyes off the job and things went very quickly.
>The meter going down to 0.001 ohms is handy too...
>
>Nag Bob if you want to see these in production, he isn't sure there is a
>market for a talking ESR meter...
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYbsDlQ8nPg> (1:23)
It might be more useful it also announced if the capacitor was good,
marginal, or bad.
There are some talking multimeters available, mostly for the blind.
<http://www.mastrogippo.it/2014/03/a-talking-multimeter/>
I played with one such home built meter that was built around a
Speak-and-Spell toy.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speak_%26_Spell_(toy)>
I found the talking feature most useful when I couldn't read the
multimeter LED display in bright sunlight, such as working under the
hood of my car. I don't think there's a need for a talking ESR meter
that works in bright sunlight.
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Phil Allison
Jun 11, 2019, 8:04:58 PM6/11/19
to
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
....................
"beauty", "dodgy" and "fucked".
.... Phil
....................
>
> "Prototype "Blue2" talking ESR meter"
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYbsDlQ8nPg> (1:23)
>
> It might be more useful it also announced if the capacitor was good,
> marginal, or bad.
>
>
** Or, in Aussie parlance that would be:
> "Prototype "Blue2" talking ESR meter"
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYbsDlQ8nPg> (1:23)
>
> It might be more useful it also announced if the capacitor was good,
> marginal, or bad.
>
>
"beauty", "dodgy" and "fucked".
.... Phil
John Robertson
Jun 11, 2019, 8:17:50 PM6/11/19
to
On 2019/06/11 4:41 p.m., Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Jun 2019 08:15:05 -0700, John Robertson <sp...@flippers.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Just was playing with one of Bob's latest prototype ESR meter designs
>> yesterday which is a talking ESR meter and working on a sound board with
>> low volume. Having the meter talk to me (Bob's voice) was handy in that
>> I didn't have to take my eyes off the job and things went very quickly.
>> The meter going down to 0.001 ohms is handy too...
>>
>> Nag Bob if you want to see these in production, he isn't sure there is a
>> market for a talking ESR meter...
>
> "Prototype "Blue2" talking ESR meter"
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYbsDlQ8nPg> (1:23)
>
> It might be more useful it also announced if the capacitor was good,
> marginal, or bad.
>
> There are some talking multimeters available, mostly for the blind.
> <http://www.mastrogippo.it/2014/03/a-talking-multimeter/>
> I played with one such home built meter that was built around a
> Speak-and-Spell toy.
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speak_%26_Spell_(toy)>
> I found the talking feature most useful when I couldn't read the
> multimeter LED display in bright sunlight, such as working under the
> hood of my car. I don't think there's a need for a talking ESR meter
> that works in bright sunlight.
>
I use an ESR meter for things besides caps, this chatty one that goes
> On Tue, 11 Jun 2019 08:15:05 -0700, John Robertson <sp...@flippers.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Just was playing with one of Bob's latest prototype ESR meter designs
>> yesterday which is a talking ESR meter and working on a sound board with
>> low volume. Having the meter talk to me (Bob's voice) was handy in that
>> I didn't have to take my eyes off the job and things went very quickly.
>> The meter going down to 0.001 ohms is handy too...
>>
>> Nag Bob if you want to see these in production, he isn't sure there is a
>> market for a talking ESR meter...
>
> "Prototype "Blue2" talking ESR meter"
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYbsDlQ8nPg> (1:23)
>
> It might be more useful it also announced if the capacitor was good,
> marginal, or bad.
>
> There are some talking multimeters available, mostly for the blind.
> <http://www.mastrogippo.it/2014/03/a-talking-multimeter/>
> I played with one such home built meter that was built around a
> Speak-and-Spell toy.
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speak_%26_Spell_(toy)>
> I found the talking feature most useful when I couldn't read the
> multimeter LED display in bright sunlight, such as working under the
> hood of my car. I don't think there's a need for a talking ESR meter
> that works in bright sunlight.
>
down to 0.001 ohms is handy for finding shorts between traces, and other
jobs, not just testing caps. Maximum is around 90 ohms.
Bob's newest ESR project (He didn't think the talking meter would sell)
is an EasyESR which has three LEDs and three different tones depending
on the result. So there is your point, however the value of the cap is
taken into consideration so the middle LED if on is good if under
1000ufd but questionable if over 1000ufd.
Here is the prototype:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o25gLeakcbM
Send him a note if you want it built!
Allodoxaphobia
Jun 11, 2019, 8:58:04 PM6/11/19
to
On Tue, 11 Jun 2019 08:15:05 -0700, John Robertson wrote:
>
> Nag Bob if you want to see these in production, he isn't
>sure there is a market for a talking ESR meter...
Just the thing for a blind repair tech! :-)
>
> Nag Bob if you want to see these in production, he isn't
>sure there is a market for a talking ESR meter...
Jonesy
Jeff Liebermann
Jun 11, 2019, 9:03:43 PM6/11/19
to
On Tue, 11 Jun 2019 07:56:08 -0700 (PDT), three_jeeps
<jjh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I never heard of one of these so google is my friend....(aka snap
>off diode or charge-storage diode or memory varactor)
Which diodes are you referring to? I checked the R293 manual at:
<jjh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I never heard of one of these so google is my friend....(aka snap
>off diode or charge-storage diode or memory varactor)
<http://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/R293>
<http://w140.com/tek_r293.pdf>
In the description, it refers to "avalanche diodes". In the parts
list, they are "Snap off, Checked" whatever that means.
D224, D240, D274, and D290.
<http://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/Step_recovery_diode>
>It probably has a lot of bad parts, given the age, and while repair would be quite a learning experience, my basis questions are:
>1) how to determine the snap diode characteristics for this unique tek part?
<http://w140.com/tek_xref_free.pdf>
<http://w140.com/Tek_RPR_152-_Diodes.pdf>
Maybe more here:
<http://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/Reference_material>
>2) and what are the chances of finding a reasonable substitute?
The TEK part number in the manual for these "snap" diodes is
153-0023-00. Google doesn't seem to find anything. The Tek to vendor
cross reference lists the part number as a "selected part" and "Sig,
Snap off" with a vendor number of "Ref. only". That's not very useful
information. This rather smells of bin selected parts in matched
pairs, which is going to be difficult to substitute without know what
parameters are being matched.
When you remove the diodes for testing in the R293, be sure to mark
them with their original Rxxx reference designator so that the return
to the same location on the PCB.
Looks like some of the microwave semiconductor houses still make step
recovery diodes for use in comb generators, frequency multipliers,
sub-harmonic generators, and maybe pulse generators:
<https://www.microsemi.com/product-directory/varactor-diodes/3150-step-recovery-diodes>
<https://www.macom.com/products/diodes/multiplier-step-recovery-diodes>
<https://www.semigen.net/step-recovery-diodes/>
<http://www.advancedsemiconductor.com/diodes/step_recovery.shtml>
etc. You probably don't need rise times suitable for generating
microwave frequencies.
>Assuming one of the snap diodes in the unit still functions, I
Are you sure that there's something wrong with the original step
recovery diodes? They might all be good and no replacement is needed.
Maybe ask the same questions in one of the Tek specific Yahoo Groups?
Jeff Liebermann
Jun 12, 2019, 12:06:07 PM6/12/19
to
On Tue, 11 Jun 2019 17:17:41 -0700, John Robertson <sp...@flippers.com>
wrote:
>I use an ESR meter for things besides caps, this chatty one that goes
>down to 0.001 ohms is handy for finding shorts between traces, and other
>jobs, not just testing caps. Maximum is around 90 ohms.
Yet another idea. Most supercaps have an extremely low ESR. For
example, Murata claims 40 to 300 milliohms (measured at 1KHz).
<https://www.murata.com/~/media/webrenewal/products/capacitor/edlc/techguide/electrical/c2m1cxs-053.ashx>
Ask Bob Parker if he can build something to test those. I have no
clue how to build probes with that low a contact resistance. Fat
copper wires with silver contacts? I don't have an immediate
application or market, but I keep running into supercaps with no way
to test them for anything more than capacitance.
wrote:
>I use an ESR meter for things besides caps, this chatty one that goes
>down to 0.001 ohms is handy for finding shorts between traces, and other
>jobs, not just testing caps. Maximum is around 90 ohms.
example, Murata claims 40 to 300 milliohms (measured at 1KHz).
<https://www.murata.com/~/media/webrenewal/products/capacitor/edlc/techguide/electrical/c2m1cxs-053.ashx>
Ask Bob Parker if he can build something to test those. I have no
clue how to build probes with that low a contact resistance. Fat
copper wires with silver contacts? I don't have an immediate
application or market, but I keep running into supercaps with no way
to test them for anything more than capacitance.
three_jeeps
Jun 12, 2019, 1:20:54 PM6/12/19
to
I did go down the route of looking up the tek cross to commercial parts and found nothing, so I am even more inclined not to deal with this thing. Given that is vintage 1965 and hasn't been turned on in 30+ years, chances are components are non-functional.
Thanks for all the insights.
J
Arie de Muynck
Jun 12, 2019, 4:45:04 PM6/12/19
to
On 2019-06-12 18:05, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Jun 2019 17:17:41 -0700, John Robertson <sp...@flippers.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I use an ESR meter for things besides caps, this chatty one that goes
>> down to 0.001 ohms is handy for finding shorts between traces, and other
>> jobs, not just testing caps. Maximum is around 90 ohms.
>
> Yet another idea. Most supercaps have an extremely low ESR. For
> example, Murata claims 40 to 300 milliohms (measured at 1KHz).
> <https://www.murata.com/~/media/webrenewal/products/capacitor/edlc/techguide/electrical/c2m1cxs-053.ashx>
> Ask Bob Parker if he can build something to test those. I have no
> clue how to build probes with that low a contact resistance. Fat
> copper wires with silver contacts? I don't have an immediate
> application or market, but I keep running into supercaps with no way
> to test them for anything more than capacitance.
>
One would use Kelvin connections - probe resistance is not a major issue
> On Tue, 11 Jun 2019 17:17:41 -0700, John Robertson <sp...@flippers.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I use an ESR meter for things besides caps, this chatty one that goes
>> down to 0.001 ohms is handy for finding shorts between traces, and other
>> jobs, not just testing caps. Maximum is around 90 ohms.
>
> Yet another idea. Most supercaps have an extremely low ESR. For
> example, Murata claims 40 to 300 milliohms (measured at 1KHz).
> <https://www.murata.com/~/media/webrenewal/products/capacitor/edlc/techguide/electrical/c2m1cxs-053.ashx>
> Ask Bob Parker if he can build something to test those. I have no
> clue how to build probes with that low a contact resistance. Fat
> copper wires with silver contacts? I don't have an immediate
> application or market, but I keep running into supercaps with no way
> to test them for anything more than capacitance.
>
then.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-terminal_sensing
Arie
John Robertson
Jun 12, 2019, 9:26:19 PM6/12/19
to
the Talking ESR meter prototype.
John :-#)#
Paul Drahn
Jun 14, 2019, 4:25:42 PM6/14/19
to
they could not get the quality and specs they wanted. They later made
their own ICs. We use one of their stencil machines today to screen
solder paste on PC boards.
Paul
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