Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
Re: U.S. Using Fake Cell Towers On Planes To Gather Cell Phone Data
28 views
Skip to first unread message
David Howard
Nov 16, 2014, 12:37:09 PM11/16/14
to
On Sun, 16 Nov 2014 05:39:55 +0000, Jolly Roger wrote:
> The problem is we don't know all of the different devices
> are out there, nor what size or power constraints they have.
We know the bad guys use (at least) the following devices:
a. Airplane (Boeing DRT)
b. Automobile (Harris Stingray)
c. Pedestrian (Harris Gossamer)
d. Laptop (Harris Purpoise & Harris Fishhawk systems)
Here's a picture of the Harris Dirtbox:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/nov/15/spies-plane-surveillance-us-marshals
Here's a picture of the $100K Harris Stingray & Stingray II:
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/09/meet-the-machines-that-steal-your-phones-data/
Here's a picture of the $20K Harris Gossamer 4000:
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/09/meet-the-machines-that-steal-your-phones-data/
Here's a PDF of the >$25K Fishhawk & Purpoise laptop packages:
http://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/fishhawk.pdf
> The problem is we don't know all of the different devices
> are out there, nor what size or power constraints they have.
We know the bad guys use (at least) the following devices:
a. Airplane (Boeing DRT)
b. Automobile (Harris Stingray)
c. Pedestrian (Harris Gossamer)
d. Laptop (Harris Purpoise & Harris Fishhawk systems)
Here's a picture of the Harris Dirtbox:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/nov/15/spies-plane-surveillance-us-marshals
Here's a picture of the $100K Harris Stingray & Stingray II:
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/09/meet-the-machines-that-steal-your-phones-data/
Here's a picture of the $20K Harris Gossamer 4000:
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/09/meet-the-machines-that-steal-your-phones-data/
Here's a PDF of the >$25K Fishhawk & Purpoise laptop packages:
http://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/fishhawk.pdf
Jolly Roger
Nov 16, 2014, 1:09:45 PM11/16/14
to
On 2014-11-16, David Howard <dsho...@microsoft.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Nov 2014 05:39:55 +0000, Jolly Roger wrote:
>
>> The problem is we don't know all of the different devices
>> are out there, nor what size or power constraints they have.
>
> We know the bad guys use (at least) the following devices:
> a. Airplane (Boeing DRT)
> b. Automobile (Harris Stingray)
> c. Pedestrian (Harris Gossamer)
> d. Laptop (Harris Purpoise & Harris Fishhawk systems)
First, there is nothing stopping anyone from using those devices in
> On Sun, 16 Nov 2014 05:39:55 +0000, Jolly Roger wrote:
>
>> The problem is we don't know all of the different devices
>> are out there, nor what size or power constraints they have.
>
> We know the bad guys use (at least) the following devices:
> a. Airplane (Boeing DRT)
> b. Automobile (Harris Stingray)
> c. Pedestrian (Harris Gossamer)
> d. Laptop (Harris Purpoise & Harris Fishhawk systems)
other places. And there is no evidence that other devices are not in
use.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.
JR
John Robertson
Nov 16, 2014, 1:25:04 PM11/16/14
to
John :-#)#
--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
(604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
David Howard
Nov 17, 2014, 12:17:31 AM11/17/14
to
On Mon, 17 Nov 2014 02:34:21 +0000, Jolly Roger wrote:
> And yet you still doubt they do it?
Think about what you just said.
Let's review the numbers.
a. They fly a Cessna equipped with a Boeing DRT (dirtbag) overhead
b. It picks up tens of thousands of cell signals during the flight
c. You think they're gonna connect tens of thousands of phone calls?
> And yet you still doubt they do it?
Think about what you just said.
Let's review the numbers.
a. They fly a Cessna equipped with a Boeing DRT (dirtbag) overhead
b. It picks up tens of thousands of cell signals during the flight
c. You think they're gonna connect tens of thousands of phone calls?
David Howard
Nov 17, 2014, 12:22:54 AM11/17/14
to
On Mon, 17 Nov 2014 05:59:33 +1100, Rod Speed wrote:
> get
> a phone which can not be tracked to you so they
> don’t know who it is when you do use the phone.
I've thought about this, but, except for a single-use phone,
I'm not sure, practically, how this can be done.
How do we go about getting a phone that can't be traced
back to us?
Sure, we can buy a phone & SIM card for cash, with a
pre-paid cash account, so, now we have a phone that isn't
traced to us (except for the store cameras). We can turn
it off miles before we get home, so, all the bad guys
know is the location where you've used it.
But, after the very first phone call, the phone can now
be traced back to us, because, the bad guys know whom you
called. After two, three, four calls, they pretty much have
you, because they can just *ask* those people you called who
you were.
So, I don't see, realistically, how you can possibly not be
traced, unless you only use the phone once.
> get
> a phone which can not be tracked to you so they
> don’t know who it is when you do use the phone.
I've thought about this, but, except for a single-use phone,
I'm not sure, practically, how this can be done.
How do we go about getting a phone that can't be traced
back to us?
Sure, we can buy a phone & SIM card for cash, with a
pre-paid cash account, so, now we have a phone that isn't
traced to us (except for the store cameras). We can turn
it off miles before we get home, so, all the bad guys
know is the location where you've used it.
But, after the very first phone call, the phone can now
be traced back to us, because, the bad guys know whom you
called. After two, three, four calls, they pretty much have
you, because they can just *ask* those people you called who
you were.
So, I don't see, realistically, how you can possibly not be
traced, unless you only use the phone once.
David Howard
Nov 17, 2014, 12:39:53 AM11/17/14
to
On Mon, 17 Nov 2014 05:32:47 +0000, David Howard wrote:
> So, for example, my neighbor only sees Verizon towers while I
> only see T-Mobile towers.
I have been checking WiGLE lately, and it knows a string of numbers
about the tower, and it puts the tower on a Google map almost exactly.
T-Mobile 209159_256_17859-GSM-EDGE -85dB 3:33:19pm
T-Mobile 209159_255_10503-GSM-EDGE -85dB 10:12:32pm
When I touch the tower on the map display, it gives me:
T-Mobile 209159_255_10503 - null - HSPA;us
Signal = -79dB
Type = GSM
First Seen = 3:41:11pm
Capabilities = EDGE;us
Channel = N/A
Observations = 94
Any idea what the "observations" indicate?
Googling, I found a few programs aimed at cell towers.
3G 4G WiFi Map & Speedtest, by OpenSignal
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.staircase3.opensignal&hl=en
Signal Finder
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.akvelon.signaltracker&hl=en
Antennas
http://www.panix.com/~mpoly/android/antennas/r1.0/
RF Signal Tracker
https://sites.google.com/site/androiddevelopmentproject/home/rf-signal-tracker
It looks like "open signal" is the recommended cellphone tower tracking app:
http://forums.androidcentral.com/verizon-htc-thunderbolt/94962-cell-tower-location-app.html
http://androidforums.com/samsung-galaxy-s3/679917-cell-phone-tower-locator-app.html
So, I'll test these out, but this search shows that "open signal" is
the one to use first and foremost.
> So, for example, my neighbor only sees Verizon towers while I
> only see T-Mobile towers.
I have been checking WiGLE lately, and it knows a string of numbers
about the tower, and it puts the tower on a Google map almost exactly.
T-Mobile 209159_256_17859-GSM-EDGE -85dB 3:33:19pm
T-Mobile 209159_255_10503-GSM-EDGE -85dB 10:12:32pm
When I touch the tower on the map display, it gives me:
T-Mobile 209159_255_10503 - null - HSPA;us
Signal = -79dB
Type = GSM
First Seen = 3:41:11pm
Capabilities = EDGE;us
Channel = N/A
Observations = 94
Any idea what the "observations" indicate?
Googling, I found a few programs aimed at cell towers.
3G 4G WiFi Map & Speedtest, by OpenSignal
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.staircase3.opensignal&hl=en
Signal Finder
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.akvelon.signaltracker&hl=en
Antennas
http://www.panix.com/~mpoly/android/antennas/r1.0/
RF Signal Tracker
https://sites.google.com/site/androiddevelopmentproject/home/rf-signal-tracker
It looks like "open signal" is the recommended cellphone tower tracking app:
http://forums.androidcentral.com/verizon-htc-thunderbolt/94962-cell-tower-location-app.html
http://androidforums.com/samsung-galaxy-s3/679917-cell-phone-tower-locator-app.html
So, I'll test these out, but this search shows that "open signal" is
the one to use first and foremost.
Rod Speed
Nov 17, 2014, 4:33:41 AM11/17/14
to
David Howard <dsho...@microsoft.com> wrote
> but, except for a single-use phone, I'm not
> sure, practically, how this can be done.
Its trivially easy to do.
> How do we go about getting a phone
> that can't be traced back to us?
Just buy one for cash.
Criminals do it all the time.
> Sure, we can buy a phone & SIM card for cash, with a
> pre-paid cash account, so, now we have a phone that
> isn't traced to us (except for the store cameras).
Trivial to avoid the transaction being seen by a store camera.
> We can turn it off miles before we get home, so, all the
> bad guys know is the location where you've used it.
> But, after the very first phone call, the phone can now be traced
> back to us, because, the bad guys know whom you called.
Not if you aren't actually stupid enough to
call anyone that has any association with you.
> After two, three, four calls, they pretty much have you, because
> they can just *ask* those people you called who you were.
Not if you aren't actually stupid enough
to call anyone and tell them who you are.
> So, I don't see, realistically, how you can possibly
> not be traced, unless you only use the phone once.
Doesn’t matter a damn if you use it more than
once as long as you don’t call anyone associated
with you or tell anyone you call who you are.
> Rod Speed wrote
>> get a phone which can not be tracked to you so they
>> don’t know who it is when you do use the phone.
> I've thought about this,
But not for very long.
>> get a phone which can not be tracked to you so they
>> don’t know who it is when you do use the phone.
> I've thought about this,
> but, except for a single-use phone, I'm not
> sure, practically, how this can be done.
> How do we go about getting a phone
> that can't be traced back to us?
Criminals do it all the time.
> Sure, we can buy a phone & SIM card for cash, with a
> pre-paid cash account, so, now we have a phone that
> isn't traced to us (except for the store cameras).
> We can turn it off miles before we get home, so, all the
> bad guys know is the location where you've used it.
> But, after the very first phone call, the phone can now be traced
> back to us, because, the bad guys know whom you called.
call anyone that has any association with you.
> After two, three, four calls, they pretty much have you, because
> they can just *ask* those people you called who you were.
to call anyone and tell them who you are.
> So, I don't see, realistically, how you can possibly
> not be traced, unless you only use the phone once.
once as long as you don’t call anyone associated
with you or tell anyone you call who you are.
David Howard
Nov 17, 2014, 6:09:55 AM11/17/14
to
On Mon, 17 Nov 2014 20:32:32 +1100, Rod Speed wrote:
> Doesn’t matter a damn if you use it more than
> once as long as you don’t call anyone associated
> with you or tell anyone you call who you are.
You agreed with me that the burner phone concept
> Doesn’t matter a damn if you use it more than
> once as long as you don’t call anyone associated
> with you or tell anyone you call who you are.
is impractical for anyone who, for privacy reasons,
doesn't wished to be traced by the government, yet,
who wants to call people that they know (which are,
for example, the main types of calls "I" make).
They're great for:
a) Single-use
b) Nefarious purposes
c) Remote control
But, they're lousy for an average citizen who simply wants
his privacy back.
Jolly Roger
Nov 17, 2014, 9:01:45 AM11/17/14
to
point. Oops.
Rod Speed
Nov 17, 2014, 2:38:37 PM11/17/14
to
David Howard <dsho...@microsoft.com> wrote
> They're great for:
> a) Single-use
Doesn’t have to be single use, just used for
a short enough time that 'they' wont get any
useful information from what calls are made
from or to it.
> b) Nefarious purposes
> c) Remote control
> But, they're lousy for an average citizen
> who simply wants his privacy back.
By definition you never had any privacy with phone calls.
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Doesn’t matter a damn if you use it more than
>> once as long as you don’t call anyone associated
>> with you or tell anyone you call who you are.
> You agreed with me that the burner phone concept
> is impractical for anyone who, for privacy reasons,
> doesn't wished to be traced by the government, yet,
> who wants to call people that they know (which are,
> for example, the main types of calls "I" make).
I never agreed with anything of the sort.
>> Doesn’t matter a damn if you use it more than
>> once as long as you don’t call anyone associated
>> with you or tell anyone you call who you are.
> You agreed with me that the burner phone concept
> is impractical for anyone who, for privacy reasons,
> doesn't wished to be traced by the government, yet,
> who wants to call people that they know (which are,
> for example, the main types of calls "I" make).
> They're great for:
> a) Single-use
a short enough time that 'they' wont get any
useful information from what calls are made
from or to it.
> b) Nefarious purposes
> c) Remote control
> But, they're lousy for an average citizen
> who simply wants his privacy back.
David Howard
Nov 17, 2014, 5:09:01 PM11/17/14
to
On Mon, 17 Nov 2014 00:19:39 -0800, miso wrote:
> I tried using that Wigle website, but the filters don't work.
> You see all those wifi SSIDs.
Hi miso,
You are mostly correct, in that Android WiGLE freeware appears
to mostly be for wardriving WiFI SSIDs, but, it also lists the
cellular towers it sees.
The advantage is that the cellular tower information nearly
exactly matches the http://opencellid.org maps you pointed us to,
so, you can tell if the tower your phone is connected to is
at least a known tower (and not one of the unnamed rogue towers).
The disadvantage of WiGLE is, as you said, that it clutters up
the output with WiFi SSIDs (which is its primary purpose), so,
we need *better* software specifically for cell tower connection
information.
It seems, to me, that it "should" be *easy* to be warned when our
cellphones connect to a rogue tower, either from the overhead
Boeing DRT (aka dirtbag), or the mobile Harris Stingray, or the
pedestrian Harris Gossamer devices.
a. The rogue cell sites all appear to be unnamed (to date),
b. While they "can" connect the call, they generally disconnect you,
c. They appear to drop your connection down from 4G to 3G to 2G,
d. They all seem to try to put your phone in maximum output mode,
e. They tell your phone they have higher signal strength than they
actually do,
f. If it's on an airplane, then it will exist for short periods only,
g. The rogue sites are not on the existing FCC databases,
etc.
Given that these general characteristics seem to be consistent,
how hard do you think it would be for someone to code up an app
which automatically WARNS the user (sort of like how AV programs
use heuristics to warn users) that a rogue site is suspected nearby?
What would be useful is, when they fly these airplanes overhead,
that the tens of thousands of people being spied upon by these
bad guys all get a notification on their phone of the illegal
activity by law enforcement overhead.
Each flight would make the news.
> I tried using that Wigle website, but the filters don't work.
> You see all those wifi SSIDs.
Hi miso,
You are mostly correct, in that Android WiGLE freeware appears
to mostly be for wardriving WiFI SSIDs, but, it also lists the
cellular towers it sees.
The advantage is that the cellular tower information nearly
exactly matches the http://opencellid.org maps you pointed us to,
so, you can tell if the tower your phone is connected to is
at least a known tower (and not one of the unnamed rogue towers).
The disadvantage of WiGLE is, as you said, that it clutters up
the output with WiFi SSIDs (which is its primary purpose), so,
we need *better* software specifically for cell tower connection
information.
It seems, to me, that it "should" be *easy* to be warned when our
cellphones connect to a rogue tower, either from the overhead
Boeing DRT (aka dirtbag), or the mobile Harris Stingray, or the
pedestrian Harris Gossamer devices.
a. The rogue cell sites all appear to be unnamed (to date),
b. While they "can" connect the call, they generally disconnect you,
c. They appear to drop your connection down from 4G to 3G to 2G,
d. They all seem to try to put your phone in maximum output mode,
e. They tell your phone they have higher signal strength than they
actually do,
f. If it's on an airplane, then it will exist for short periods only,
g. The rogue sites are not on the existing FCC databases,
etc.
Given that these general characteristics seem to be consistent,
how hard do you think it would be for someone to code up an app
which automatically WARNS the user (sort of like how AV programs
use heuristics to warn users) that a rogue site is suspected nearby?
What would be useful is, when they fly these airplanes overhead,
that the tens of thousands of people being spied upon by these
bad guys all get a notification on their phone of the illegal
activity by law enforcement overhead.
Each flight would make the news.
Frank Slootweg
Nov 20, 2014, 5:12:41 PM11/20/14
to
> > If you have a Blackberry, you can force the phone not to connect to 2G
> > towers. Most of the fake towers use 2G since it is easier to hack. They jam
> > 3G, 4G, LTE to force the phone into 2G. But if your phone won't go into 2G,
> > you are golden. There is an upgrade to use more modern system since 2G is
> > going away rapidly
>
> Miso,
> You seem to know more about this than anyone to date.
> Is there a way to force Android or iOS phone to *not* go into 2G mode?
> Or, at the very least, to audibly warn you when they're forced into 2G mode?
I'm not Miso, but you can force most decent phones not to go into '2G'
mode.
That can be done on most 'dumb' phones and - AFAIK - on most (all?)
Android phones (and I assume also on iPhones).
For example on my (4.1.1) phone:
Settings -> 'All' tab -> WIRELESS & NETWORKS -> Mobile networks ->
Network mode (Change the network operating mode) -> Preferred network
mode ->
On my phone this gives options:
GSM / WCDMA auto
WCDMA only
GSM only
If I would set this to 'WCDMA only', it would not get into GSM (==
'2G') mode [1].
[1] This space is left blank for some loon to claim that the feds can
revert this setting as well.
> > towers. Most of the fake towers use 2G since it is easier to hack. They jam
> > 3G, 4G, LTE to force the phone into 2G. But if your phone won't go into 2G,
> > you are golden. There is an upgrade to use more modern system since 2G is
> > going away rapidly
>
> Miso,
> You seem to know more about this than anyone to date.
> Is there a way to force Android or iOS phone to *not* go into 2G mode?
> Or, at the very least, to audibly warn you when they're forced into 2G mode?
I'm not Miso, but you can force most decent phones not to go into '2G'
mode.
That can be done on most 'dumb' phones and - AFAIK - on most (all?)
Android phones (and I assume also on iPhones).
For example on my (4.1.1) phone:
Settings -> 'All' tab -> WIRELESS & NETWORKS -> Mobile networks ->
Network mode (Change the network operating mode) -> Preferred network
mode ->
On my phone this gives options:
GSM / WCDMA auto
WCDMA only
GSM only
If I would set this to 'WCDMA only', it would not get into GSM (==
'2G') mode [1].
[1] This space is left blank for some loon to claim that the feds can
revert this setting as well.
0 new messages